Thoughts on this week's PD: Vertigo Comics and Religion

[zuludelta]

I tend to agree with Mr. Grant in that many of the comics that deal with religion (or at least their respective authors' take on the subject) tend to come off as slightly overwrought, teetering on melodrama at times. Granted (no pun intended), straight-up good vs. evil iconography is pretty much a given in the medium, when one considers Vertigo Comics' (the particular example SG brings up in this week's column) historical and genealogical ties to the superhero genre.

Still, even with that knowledge coming in, I find little to interest me in, say, Mike Carey's Lucifer or even the much-vaunted Sandman outside of the excellent level of craft that goes/went into them (I haven't read a single Neil Gaiman interview in my life but I'd always thought that there were some parallels being drawn between Morpheus and the semi-historical Jesus Christ... so if this was the author's intention or not, or if it was something I was just reading into the material, I'm not sure).

Even Garth Ennis' Preacher, possibly the pinnacle of "pissing on religious convention" comics during Vertigo's, for lack of a better term, "industry media renaissance", held my attention only insofar as the character interactions were of (possibly prurient and morbid) interest to me (Tulip cheating on Custer and sleeping with Cassidy, Odin Quincannon's love affair with meat-products, Arsefaces' uh, arse-face, etc.). The over-arching theme that was supposed to tie the whole series together, of some cosmic über-Judeo-Christian God-power being let loose in the world in the body of a conflicted man-of-the-cloth, sort of lost steam towards the end of the series, and to be honest, I found the ending sorely disappointing and anti-climactic. Part of the reason is that I could smell the ending from a good telegraphing-distance away... not the particulars, mind you, but the general idea, at the very least.

Despite my qualms, though, I don't find myself as critical of these comics as SG does. It maybe a function of age... I discovered these books when I was a disillusioned Catholic teen, caught between atheism and Buddhism (I'll let you guess where I eventually settled on... here's a clue, I work in a lab... although I should probably have been looking to critical/reviewed texts instead of North American comics for direction... The Waiting Place is not The Theological Review). I mean, they got me thinking about religion, at least, which is more than you can say about a lot of the stuff out there. And to that extent, I think they have some value outside of the authors soapboxing and such.

[Paul McEnery]

And besides, the blame lies with Jack Kirby, for Highfather and Darkseid.

[Dennis]

i believe in god, and recently I've been looking at atheist videos on youtube and trying to find books and ideas by atheists. I'm especially interested in atheists who say they have scientific proof that god doesn't exist. but when i look into such books, they don't have this scientific proof, it's just bashing the christian god for hundreds of pages. i'm not really into the christian god, so this kind of stuff is useless for me. so if you guys know about this scientific proof, i'd like to hear it. the usual atheist argument I would describe in one sentence: God is an asshole, therefore he can't possibly exist.

which is the same message from garth ennis and vertigo. they can only show the ridiculousness of god by showing god behaving ridiculously. so god has to be in the story. if he wasn't in the story, you can't really attack him or the belief in him.

[ACertainMrDoe]

[QUOTE=Dennis;4566106]God is an asshole, therefore he can't possibly exist.
QUOTE]

God is an asshole, and each of us is made in His image. That explains a lot.

[dancj]

I'm especially interested in atheists who say they have scientific proof that god doesn't exist.

There's never going to be any scientific proof that he doesn't exist because it would be impossible to prove the non-existence of something that doesn't have to obey any scientific laws.

but for fun we could argue with specific definitions....

God is allegedly "something than which nothing greater can be imagined"

and according to Douglas Adams, good won't prove he exists.. "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

Well I can imagine a being that is something without faith!

(Don't take my argument seriously - I know it's full of holes)

[Paul McEnery]

i believe in god, and recently I've been looking at atheist videos on youtube and trying to find books and ideas by atheists. I'm especially interested in atheists who say they have scientific proof that god doesn't exist. but when i look into such books, they don't have this scientific proof, it's just bashing the christian god for hundreds of pages. i'm not really into the christian god, so this kind of stuff is useless for me. so if you guys know about this scientific proof, i'd like to hear it. the usual atheist argument I would describe in one sentence: God is an asshole, therefore he can't possibly exist.

which is the same message from garth ennis and vertigo. they can only show the ridiculousness of god by showing god behaving ridiculously. so god has to be in the story. if he wasn't in the story, you can't really attack him or the belief in him.

Define God and I'll give you the proof. But if you mean the Aquinas model of omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence, I could cheerfully show you that they're pseudo-words with no real meaning whatsoever which can't therefore be used to define anything.

But if you want a full grasp of the argument, try The Miracle of Theism by J.L. Mackie.

[Gmarvelous]

*ahem*
I just wanted to say that I am a Christian, I strongly believe in GOD, and I LOVE comics as well. As a matter of fact, I'm an aspiring comics writer who wants to do traditional superhero stories. That's all I wanted to say.

[Dennis]

Define God and I'll give you the proof. But if you mean the Aquinas model of omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence, I could cheerfully show you that they're pseudo-words with no real meaning whatsoever which can't therefore be used to define anything.

But if you want a full grasp of the argument, try The Miracle of Theism by J.L. Mackie.

god is the creator of our universe. he created everything in it: humans, birds, rocks, spider-man, american idol, atheists, books written by atheists.

[yoda510]

I am so offended by the way religion is portrayed in the media and as an extension comics. Mr Grant writes:

Not that I'm not going to mock religion - all religion; it's all just weird cults of various sizes to me - but usually only when it's thrown in my face and, you know, if you don't want to be mocked, don't try telling me I should be believing patently ridiculous things.

I am sorry, that is mocking religion right there alone. I guess it is much more realistic that we evolved from a one celled organism and came down from a tree than something created us, even though most scientists say that to have non life become life was over a billion to one shot. To survive that evolve more puts the odds in the trillions. I think to call either view patently ridiculous is ridiculous since neither can be proven. What really offends me even more is if someone is considered really smart in comics(Mr. Terrific, the 3rd smartest man alive) he has to be an atheist.

Wouldn't a truly smart man be an agnostic? Since you can't prove it either way, wouldn't that make more sense.

I know our church supports an orphanage in the Ukraine and and in Brazil. We also kept steady trucks of fresh water going to Hurricane Katrina. I don't remember the last time a group of atheists got together and supported anything or helped anyone. I believe that is what it is all about after you die, if there is a heaven or not. What did you accomplish and who did you help?

[badMike]

I don't remember the last time a group of atheists got together and supported anything or helped anyone.

Why do atheists have to do something in a group in order for it to "count" for you? No atheist ever did anything to help anyone ever? Did you ever ask one? How many do you hang out with regularly?

BTW: I'm not an atheist. I was just curious about a further explanation.

[yoda510]

Mike, I think you missed my point there. My point is I would like to see some positive points about religion and the good it does placed out there. I know of one coworker I work with who is atheist and we play cards about once a month together and go out to eat once or twice a week. We have had some great debates. But he doesn't come to me and say hey your ideas are "patently ridiculous" and I pay him the same respect. I wish the good aspects of religion would be covered as much as the negative ones.

Of course it counts if they do good, and I know they do. I know Ted Turner donated 1 billion dollars to charity. I think that is great. It is just largest charitable organizations that do good throughout the world are supported by religious institutions, and that is never, ever brought up anywhere.

[mattx110]

Mike, I think you missed my point there. My point is I would like to see some positive points about religion and the good it does placed out there. I know of one coworker I work with who is atheist and we play cards about once a month together and go out to eat once or twice a week. We have had some great debates. But he doesn't come to me and say hey your ideas are "patently ridiculous" and I pay him the same respect. I wish the good aspects of religion would be covered as much as the negative ones.

Of course it counts if they do good, and I know they do. I know Ted Turner donated 1 billion dollars to charity. I think that is great. It is just largest charitable organizations that do good throughout the world are supported by religious institutions, and that is never, ever brought up anywhere.

i thought the "i'm not gonna mock religion, it's just a bunch of cults anyway" line was pretty funny, and probably came out of a stream of consciouscness type thing, or an editted line that put the contradicting statements together.

anyway, the line i see is between solidarity and nationalism.

solidarity, you are equating yourself with all, working for the common good through religious organizations. this is a positive use of religion.

nationalism, you are claiming pride in your religion at the expense of non-believers. this leads to nothing good. isn't pride a deadly sin or is that just a cool idea for fiction to play with?

[yoda510]

nationalism, you are claiming pride in your religion at the expense of non-believers. this leads to nothing good. isn't pride a deadly sin or is that just a cool idea for fiction to play with?

I agree, and you should do it out of love and not out of feeling good about yourself. But Pride works for non believers as well. Taking pride in not believing at the expense of believers is just as bad. And that is the point of this post. I have read these message boards for quite some time and almost all the posts are of a anti religious nature. I know there are many Christians, Muslems, Hindu's etc out there that just don't respond because I think most religions have a turn the other cheek mentally but I just want our point of view heard and not stomped out like many of these boards try to do.

[dancj]

Wouldn't a truly smart man be an agnostic? Since you can't prove it either way, wouldn't that make more sense.

In the DCU a truly smart man - especially one who rubs shoulders with superheroes - would be religious as it's been proved over and over again that there's a hell.

Speaking as an atheist it makes sense to me that a really smart man would be an atheist, but you might see it a different way ;)

[NatGertler]

Wouldn't a truly smart man be an agnostic? Since you can't prove it either way, wouldn't that make more sense.

Nope. Atheism is a statement of belief, and when one can find no reason to believe that X exists, despite ample opportunities for evidence, then it can be reasonable to believe there is no X. I'm not agnostic about whether there's a giant undetectable floating elephant hovering over my head; would you be?

I don't remember the last time a group of atheists got together and supported anything or helped anyone.

Because atheism isn't a belief that demands unification... but many atheists are quite active in supporting and helping. The belief that this is the world that matters, not some supposed afterlife, can be powerful. You want to look at big donors in this world, look at the religiously-unaffiliated Warren Buffett...