This weeks column - 22 pages?

[dlairman]

IN this week's column, you said

Oddly, from a writer's perspective, 17 pages were easier to structure, as 8 or 11 page stories are.

I'm curious... you wnet through why the 22 page story is difficult, but I don't see why 17, 8 or 11 are any easier, and you didn't explain.

I can understand in general why a specific page limit can be a problem in storytelling, as any particular story might not need exactly that number of pages. But I would think that was true of any page count.

And if you look at the 22-page count (or any page count) as similar to Haiku - extremely regemented in structure and theme - then the issue doesn't seem to be such a big deal anyway.

OTOH, the strict page count works for the publisher and consumer by not providing monthly "sticker shock" that might jolt a habitual buyer out of their buying pattern.

Though I can think of quite a few times where a publisher added a page or two to fit a particular story on a occasional basis.

[NatGertler]

Except there's a reason that haiku is haiku -- it's a rhythm that works, that poets embraced because it brought about good stuff.
I've not worked much in 22 pages myself (some in 24, some in shorter bits), but the folks I talk to who have worked at that length often echo Steven's response to it. It's a difficult rhythm, for whatever reason.
I'm not saying that I agree with all of his response to what ought be done instead -- I think that a lot of comics are awkward these days because they're trying to be segments of a TPB in positioning and segments of a movie in storytelling, and that we might be better off if most of the comics tried to be good 24 pagers. But dislike of the 22 page form is not arbitrary.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I'm not annoyed reading a story of 22 pages as I am reading a story written for the trade, and I only read comics in trade or hardback form.
Way too many stories seem to have chapters or scenes that do nothing to further plot or further character.
A lot of this seems to be writers or artists trying to be more cinematic, and make it feel like a movie, ignoring that good movies don't waste any time at all, and everything goes towards furthering story or character, cramming as much in as they can.
It particuarly hurts when reading when you can see that a writer is basically just extending the length of the story to extend the length of the story.
An example I read a few months ago, which actually pulled me out of the story was an old Ultimate Spiderman story (a series I quite like, but wish that more happened in).
One issue ended with Doctor Octopus knocking Spiderman out in a fight. The next next issue started with Spiderman tied up on a plane. He talked to Doctor Octupus a bit, and Dr Octopus told him how he got there, a story that took up most of the issue, and was basically just how Doctor Octopus fought police to get to the airport, and how he took the pilot hostage.
Wouldn't the momentum of the arc have been better if we didn't see that?
Nothing was added to the overall story by showing the sequence, as the sequence showed nothing you couldn't have assumed happened for them to get to a plane.
It just bothers me that less is more and start each scene late and end it early have fallen by the wayside.
(then again my other pet peeve is writers who tell you things without showing you things, and although this often just to flesh out a character without fleshing them out, I guess I may be hard to please).

I'm more amazed by the old 17 page stories at how much more the writers managed to fit into one issue, than some writers can fit into three these days.
Maybe more creators need to start reading and studying their Essentials and Showcase.

[Paul Render]

I like the idea he mentioned of just writing a story however long it is and price it accordingly. I personally like the 32 page format for monthly issues. Maybe a 18 or 22 page main story and a backup to fill out the rest of the issue, a lot like they used to do back in the day. That way you'd be able to try out a new character or new creators without putting them in a brand new comic and it failing.

But also his link to the story about the new way of thinking about the state of the universe(s) was really cool. And to me seems much more in tune than a big bang which I personally always thought was flawed and was waiting for a scientific revision (since I myself could never prove any of my own personal theories, not being a mathmetician or scientist of any sort, only a philosopher in my own head), and now this may be it!

[plainbrownwraper]

I mentioned my love of anthologies in here before, and also mentioned that more short pieces would encourage artistic development - going to 32 art pages would be somewhere in the middle, it would encourage development of more short pieces, while giving writers a bit more flexibility for the main story.

I think going longer than 22 pages might make it harder for artists to hit monthly deadlines, it would shift the balance towards studio efforts and away from star artists - which I think is a selling point for the majors.

Adding some short stuff would add value, maybe help move more books - it would depend on whatever profit margin the majors were willing to sustain.

Personally, I miss the the old Black and White magazine format, Conan, Creepy, Eerie, etc. - it didn't need special racks for one thing, also more easily storable in standard magazine holders when you get them home.

I dunno what kind of costs would be involved in going to color, but you'd probobly have to go back to pulp to keep it affordable.

Still, it takes me longer to read one issue of Heavy Metal at Six bucks a pop (slick paper, 120 pages ±) than two pamphlets at Three bucks apiece, and I can skip around until I'm ready to concentrate on the denser or more outré material.

The extra real estate on the cover also attracted more painters I believe, i.e., the covers became more of selling point beyond just attention getting.

[plainbrownwraper]

Not sure how the new theory of the univers is appreciably different than big bang theory which theorized that expansion would halt at some point where the universe begins contracting, eventually coalescing into another singularity in an increasingly dense gravity well, whereupon the whole process repeats itself.

The dispute is still over whether there is enough mass for this to occur, or if it all just dissapates - but it would seem logical that if there was enough mass to begin with, there must be enough mass for a recycle - it's just that nobody is sure where it is yet.

Ah, well, I guess it helps if I read the link - multiple universes, lot's of little bangs - taking into account the fact that the universe is still expanding, even accelerating outward.

I happen to think the universe is torus shaped, i.e., space time is shaped like a big doughnut, so eventually everything will curve back around towards the hole in the middle. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

[khuxford]

I thought the bigger focus of the article was the "catch the typo" contest. Wait...there wasn't one? :)

I'm not normally a nitpicker about such things...but I can't recall if the column went more than 2 sentences without a typo this week.

Best one: "Are they so desperate to show they're tough on immortality in Connecticut?"

:D

Anyway...

[dancj]

Not sure how the new theory of the univers is appreciably different than big bang theory which theorized that expansion would halt at some point where the universe begins contracting, eventually coalescing into another singularity in an increasingly dense gravity well, whereupon the whole process repeats itself.

Yeah - the new theory Steven described fitted exactly what I thought was already the popular theory.

Best one: "Are they so desperate to show they're tough on immortality in Connecticut?"

"One thing about living in Conneticut I never could stomach, all the damn vampires."

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Maybe a 18 or 22 page main story and a backup to fill out the rest of the issue, a lot like they used to do back in the day. That way you'd be able to try out a new character or new creators without putting them in a brand new comic and it failing.

I'm really not sure why the back up dissapeared. I think a lot of the blame for that really has to go on the creators, for not being able to write good stories in them anymore.
Thanks to TPB's and Showcase and other such collections, I've recently read a lot of really good 8 page stories - some with packed quite full.
Grimjacks first appearances were in 8 page back ups, and they were great, and I don't think I have to point out to anyone that Goodwin and Simonson's Manhunter was done in 8 page backups.

Even if they aren't used to try out main characters, they could be used to flesh out supporting characters, or even tell a story using the main character that doesn't fit the tone of the rest of the book.

[DoctorDoom]

I prefer 22 pages for the 2.99 I'm paying. Sgave the price and I'll accept 17.

[NatGertler]

The direct market reader seems to one to get very speciic material (whether it is specific creators or specific characters) for his money, seeing back-up material as meaning just that much less of what they were buying. Similarly, anthologies don't do well in this market (in stark contrast to outside the direct market, where the top selling periodical comics are anthologies.)

[Steven Grant]

I'm really not sure why the back up dissapeared.

Because the market made it very clear it neither appreciated nor wanted them.

- Grant

[the goddamn batman]

Two words:

Casanova

and

FELL

Both 16 pages each (Cas #1 is a double sized issue, but is normally 16 pages, and #1 didn't cost more, despite it's double length).

[DoctorDoom]

Two words:

Casanova

and

FELL

Both 16 pages each (Cas #1 is a double sized issue, but is normally 16 pages, and #1 didn't cost more, despite it's double length).

Hrmmm..... Ive heard of them before. SOunds like good readin'~

[plainbrownwraper]

The direct market reader seems to one to get very speciic material (whether it is specific creators or specific characters) for his money, seeing back-up material as meaning just that much less of what they were buying. Similarly, anthologies don't do well in this market (in stark contrast to outside the direct market, where the top selling periodical comics are anthologies.)

I was thinking more along the lines of "anthology like" - i.e., put an origins story into an issue of X-Men or something, i.e., similarly themed - more pages, more flexability on story length.