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  1. #16
    Junior Member elias_A's Avatar
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    I did not mean I personally need this questions answered; I think I know quite a lot about this time, from school, books etc.

    But that does not mean there is no reason literature (or comics) should not address this topics; in fact, what I meant is that Ultimates seems to suggest misleading answers, even if certainly no one will take the aliens stuff seriously.


    Quote Originally Posted by trickster View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic

    Any guy who would channel this resentment by giving it a target, be it Jews, French, British or what not, would very quickly rise in popularity.
    Quote Originally Posted by trickster View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic

    This thing about evil is such horse manure. Hitler didn't do anything different from what the Americans did with the indians: it was the need for expansion. Germany was pushed against the wall after WWI. You push, sometimes the guy you push pushes back.
    I totally disagree. Germany certainly had no need for expansion; they would have liked an empire like Britain, sure, but this myth of an "nation without space" was just a crazy fantasy of fanatics like Hitler.

    In the second half of the 1920s, Germanys economy was quite healthy again, only after the stock exchange crash of 1930 it collapsed again.
    And the german government even secretly decided not to fight this very much so that they could pretend the country was now so poor that they were not able to continue the payments of the treaty of Versailles - but this caused mass-poverty which helped Hitler.

    But there were a lot of other reasons for Hitler's rise, many of them caused by the way Bismarck unified Germany after the war with France in 1870/71. This victory was glorified in an extreme way, so that most people expected another easy victory in 1914 and were not able to accept the defeat.
    The glorification of Bismarck, and the fact that democracy was not popular in germany at that time, made a lot of people think they needed another "strong leader".

    But I don't want to bore you with a history lecture...

  2. #17
    Junior Member elias_A's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by garin View Post
    No, but it might be an entertaining story all the same. I think your mistake is assuming that Millar is trying to make any sort of serious commentary on the Nazi issue.

    Captain America fought the Nazis before he was frozen. That's why there are Nazis in the book at all. If you tie them together with a larger threat the whole team can face later, you add a little cohesiveness to the series as a whole.

    As you allude to, it also adds the whole conspiracy theory angle-- the secret history of the world type stuff that many readers enjoy. However, first and foremost it is a work of fiction, and I can't see any connection to the kind of historical revisionism (ie Holocaust denial) that happens in the real world.
    I see what you mean. But I don't really expect Millar to make any serious commentary about nazi germany. What I critisice is that he is getting in the way of such commentarys, or more accurately, not respecting the seriousness of the topic.

    I just want something as intelligent and thought-provoking as Ultimates 2.

    And I wouldn't mind them just fighting Nazis; as I said, it's the "controlled by aliens" thing.

  3. #18
    Hows about no... TheLazy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elias_A View Post
    I see what you mean. But I don't really expect Millar to make any serious commentary about nazi germany. What I critisice is that he is getting in the way of such commentarys, or more accurately, not respecting the seriousness of the topic.

    I just want something as intelligent and thought-provoking as Ultimates 2.

    And I wouldn't mind them just fighting Nazis; as I said, it's the "controlled by aliens" thing.
    I dont think he was trying to work the idea that the nazi' werent resposible for their actions, I think he was using context to define the story. You put LoTR into the DVD player and watch a good 10 minutes of film before you get it that Souron is evil, you slap another movie into the machine and see a guy wear a swazticka 5 seconds in, no dialog, no narration, no action, you just know he's evil, or evil as far as hollywood stereotypes go.

    :)

  4. #19
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    I think the whole chitauri-Nazi thing is cool. It makes the background more interesting. Its like in Vampire the masquerade, where two different vampire clans are responsible for the war between Rome and Karthago.
    Three armed cops and a writer makes four. You’re under arrest, so get on the floor.

    Master Yoda on clubbing: "Always two there are, no more, no less: a hot chick and her fat friend."

  5. #20
    Member gravling's Avatar
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    i actually loved that element, i thought it was a great concept.

  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by elias_A View Post

    But I don't want to bore you with a history lecture...
    Well, don't worry, I'm not bored by this kind of lectures. However, I am really bored with this stereotyping of Nazis, and I'm not even german. And of course I can't help but wonder if some people are trying to vilify them because it makes for an easy target.
    Fifty years from now, when you're looking back at your life, don't you want to be able to say you had the guts to get in the car?

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by trickster View Post
    Well, don't worry, I'm not bored by this kind of lectures. However, I am really bored with this stereotyping of Nazis, and I'm not even german. And of course I can't help but wonder if some people are trying to vilify them because it makes for an easy target.
    I am always a bit disturbed by this kind of villafication of the Nazis. Its too easy. Sure, they were genuinely hated at one point but this kind of depiction - that one evil maniac and his immoral cronies, or in this case, some evil aliens were behind it all - is a convenient fiction to mask the fact that an entire nation fell in line behind an ambitious leadership with an agenda of aggression and they did this because of fear and confusion galvanized by the scapegoating of a minority group that had nothing to do with the fear and confusion.

    Its convenient because it allows everyone to say "it cant happen to us because these guys were madmen or probably controlled by vampires or aliens" when the truth is that they were people just like the rest of us. People need to remember that an entire nation can be manipulated to military and political aggression under the belief that are defending their values. They need to remember that the nazis and hitler legitimately rose to power in a democratic government and then proceeded to strip down the deomcratic process and cripple the constitution under the pretense of national security.

  8. #23
    Roxxon Oil Employee Neptunicus's Avatar
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    The Chitauri picked the Nazis to ally with b/c their ideologies meshed. They were both hellbent on enslaving or eliminating the populace to one degree or another. So Millar isn't dismissing any of the atrocities perpetuated by Hitler and his cronies but rather showing a scenario where another group with similar goals was allied with Nazi Germany.

    On the other hand give me a break - no where in Ultimates (vol.1) is anything said that gives me the impression that the writer, artist, or Marvel discount any of the horrors of war. Not to be mean or antagonistic but I'm really missing your point - could you point out a specific example where it is implied or said that "(implied - Nazi) germany basically was not responsible for its crimes"?
    Last edited by Neptunicus; 02-07-2007 at 11:13 AM.

  9. #24

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    that they were people just like the rest of us.
    Exactly.
    Its convenient because it allows everyone to say "it cant happen to us because these guys were madmen or probably controlled by vampires or aliens" when the truth is that they were people just like the rest of us.

    People need to remember that an entire nation can be manipulated to military and political aggression under the belief that are defending their values.

    They need to remember that the nazis and hitler legitimately rose to power in a democratic government and then proceeded to strip down the deomcratic process and cripple the constitution under the pretense of national security
    You mean like

















    America today?
    Fifty years from now, when you're looking back at your life, don't you want to be able to say you had the guts to get in the car?

  10. #25
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    No. Hitler rose legitimately to power.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  11. #26
    Hows about no... TheLazy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    No. Hitler rose legitimately to power.
    You call the night of the long knifes legitimate politics?;)

    :)

  12. #27
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Not really. But he had already risen to power then IIRC.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLazy View Post
    You call the night of the long knifes legitimate politics?;)

    :)
    Hah! And here I thought you were talking about the - Florida, was it?- votes.
    Fifty years from now, when you're looking back at your life, don't you want to be able to say you had the guts to get in the car?

  14. #29
    Hows about no... TheLazy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Not really. But he had already risen to power then IIRC.
    wasnt hindenburg still president untill then though?

    :)

  15. #30
    Quasispatial Envoy Arilou's Avatar
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    Actually Hitler did not rise to power democratically by any means, not only had the entire normal ruling of the country been suspended for years (Hindenburg was basically ruling by decree) but the elections would most definately fail any test of fairness due to the widespread violence.

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