Overeducated, Underinspired?

[Johnny Triangles]

I read two autobiographies recently, one about Jack Kirby and the other about Stan Lee. What really stood out to me was that these guys along with many of the others were these poor ass Jewish kids with very little education, yet they were incredibly creative. From the golden age and for well into the Silver Age people didn;t have that much education but created concepts that endure until today. As fans started increasingly entering the business, they seem to be technically better writers (which I guess comes from the education) but have precious little new things to say.

What was the last new character to be introduced? Most of the characters we see focused on are the same ones the uneducated guys created, just "remixed." Everything is just a remix. Ultimate Spidey is just a remixed Lee/Ditko. Civil War is just a Lee/Kirby book that thinks it's way hipper and smarter than it actually is. DC has milked the Crisis to create new remixed post-Crisis versions of pre-Crisis stories, now fleshed out with indulgent narration captions, more sex and drawn out multipart stories. Matt Wagner's Batman and the Monster Men is just a long drawn out remix of a golden age 10 page Batman story. Same for the Mad Monk story.

What got me thinking about this again is the backup story of this week's Wolverine issue by Jeph Loeb. Like Superman For All Seasons, Spider-Man Blue and most of his other work like Superman/Batman, it was just an old-school story just retold with unnecessary hamfisted narration captions. He went to Columbia frickin University yet he's riding on the creative coattails of high school dropouts. And he's hardly along in this. Judd WInick went to University of Michigan and spends his time rehashing old DC concepts, just remixing them with rape and homosexual themes.

I really have no theories as to why this is. Does education teach conformity and how to play it safe? Does it kill creativity? Or is the problem that comics attract a different kind of creator now, the reverent fan turned pro rather than the aspiring novelist or cartoonist that is just "slumming" until something better comes along?

It just really astounds me that highly educated young hip college graduates from good backgrounds are still strip-mining the ideas laid down decades ago by high school grads and dropouts from dirt poor Jewish backgrounds. What is the cause of this current "remix" culture of creativity? Is the solution to recruit poor, hungry and eager talent like back in the day?

[Aaron Kashtan]

There are lots of comics creators doing very intelligent, creative and innovative work today, regardless of their level of education. (Los Bros Hernandez, Kevin Huizenga, Dan Clowes, Kim Deitch, Jeff Smith, Dylan Horrocks, Carla Speed McNeil, to name a few.) Offhand, I don't know whether these people have a college-level education or not. What they do have in common is that they work on their own creations, instead of characters created before they were born by other people, and this gives them an opportunity to truly exercise their creativity.

In other words, if you think comics today are lacking in originality or creativity, it's only because your definition of comics is too narrow. I don't think education has anything to do with it. If anything, I think your idea that

comics attract a different kind of creator now, the reverent fan turned pro

is probably more accurate than not, if you substitute "superhero comics" for "comics."

Also, Jeph Loeb is just a crummy writer. It's a mystery to me how he gets work.

[stealthwise]

No idea about education either, but writers like Dan Slott, Brian K Vaughan and Robert Kirkman do very well, and often follow the traditional mode of superhero storytelling for Marvel/DC.

However, Vaughan also applies college education and modern sensibility to titles like Y and Ex Machina. Whether that's because of his degree or not, who knows.

All I know is that Loeb sucks.

[carabas]

Also, Jeph Loeb is just a crummy writer. It's a mystery to me how he gets work.

He gets work because, for some unfathomable reason, because your assesment of his skills is pretty accurate IMO, his name sells books. And lots of them.

Now in defence of the original point of current writers doing very little but regurgitating old stories, what else are they supposed to do?
I simply don't think it is possible to do a Batman or Superman orSpider-Man story that hasn't been done bfore in some way.
And when one does find a more or less new angle (Murderer/Fugitive, Spider-Man unmasked, Aunt May finds out th secret, Superman gets a kid...) fans respond largely negative.
As for doing something really original and creating new characters: Aztek, Chase, Skull Kill Krew, Vext, Human Defense Corps, Hitman, Araña, Alias/The Pulse, Major Bummer, Ressurection Man...
There is nothing guarantees commercial suicide like original characters (at the big 2 anyway).

[Johnny Triangles]

The first responder is right, I should have explicitly said superhero comics. Alot of the stuff I've been reading from Oni, ComicsLit and Ait/Planetar has indeed been very creative. And Brian Wood's creator owned stuff is always a joy.

[Johnny Triangles]

No idea about education either, but writers like Dan Slott, Brian K Vaughan and Robert Kirkman do very well, and often follow the traditional mode of superhero storytelling for Marvel/DC.

However, Vaughan also applies college education and modern sensibility to titles like Y and Ex Machina. Whether that's because of his degree or not, who knows.

All I know is that Loeb sucks.

Vaughan, to his credit, does create a lot of new characters in his superhero work, even if the mode of storytelling is traditional. He launched Runaways, which had a whole brand new team along with a brand new cast of bad guys. But he's by far the exception. Morrison tried to launch a new title, Aztek. These are the exceptions though.

In fairness to the superhero creators, maybe the way the previous creators got ripped off in the past along with lackof fan interest in new characters is what scares them from creating anything new? Bendis, Winick and Rucka do create new characters in their creator owned stuff after all, so it's not like they're incapable of being creative (although one may argue that the storytelling is still a little derivative).

[founder81]

Isn't the biggest problem with super-hero comics the mind set of: "Do something new, edgy, an angle we've never seen before but don't stray from the formula we've had for 50+ years"

[StrikeForce Albert]

Also, Jeph Loeb is just a crummy writer. It's a mystery to me how he gets work.

Convince enough of the right people something is good and other people will eat it up. Alot of people think that since WIZARD likes Loeb then he is top material. Same with Land and Turner. They're Wizard darlings so they must be good.

I all honestly I think Loeb is an OK writer, very hit-and-miss with me, but no way if I was running a company would I constantly stick him with all my top artist

[Ryan Day]

Two reasons, mostly (as far as superhero books go, anyway): First, most fans don't really want something new, or at least they're not willing to spend money on it. Books like Runaways are out there, but nobody buys them (at least, not in the direct market).

Second, creators are reluctant to give their new creations away on a work-for-hire basis. It's better to save your original ideas for a creator-owned book - that way you get to profit if it's a success, and even more so if there's Hollywood interest. Mark Millar expressed sentiments much to that effect.

So Big 2 superhero books tend towards the recycled, while Ellis, Vaughan, and others often go elsewhere for their real creativity.

[the film freak]

Jeph Loeb isn't the greatest writer but he's a pretty bright guy. He's been pretty successful as a writer and producer for tv and movies longer then he has been writing comics.

I think part of his success in the comic field other then coming from tv and movies is the fact he tends to write for an artist. Even though Batman: Hush didn't make a whole lot of sense but there was plenty of cool shit for Jim Lee to draw. So most of the hot artists like working with him. And the fans who like to see Jim Lee draw cool shit end up buying it.

Granted guys like Joe Casey, Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman and Grant Morrison do write for the artist and manage to tell a good story.

I don't think the "higher education makes comic writers less inspired" argument holds much water though. Even when it comes to mainstream comics superhero comics. Dan Slott, Greg Pak, Allen Heinberg and Brian Vaughn are college graduates who manage to do interesting and well received work for the Big Two.

That said if you want more inspired comics you are better off looking outside the Big Two. Companies like Oni, AIT/Planet Lar, Top Shelf, Image, Dark Horse, Drawn & Quarterly and Fantagraphics are putting out more interesting books then Marvel and DC (not including Vertigo).

[Apathy Boy]

There's some faulty logic in the premise of this thread. Correlation isn't causality. I mean, “Stan Lee” and “Jack Kirby” were both pseudonyms, but that doesn’t mean Jeph Loeb will suddenly become the industry’s most creative writer if he changes his name to “Polly Popoff.”

Secondly, you would be very, very wrong in saying that *no* new characters are being created. Dozens of new superheroes and villains are created each year at the Big Two, hundreds once you include other companies (heck, you read INVINCIBLE? Even if you discount the obvious DC/Marvel analogues, it’s not unusual for that comic to introduce dozens of new characters in one issue).

However, you would be correct in saying that much *fewer* characters are being created, and that the overall trend at the Big Two seems to be nostalgia. I can think of a few reasons for that:

1) As stated, creators are reluctant to give up their creations to corporate interests. I think a lot of creators see superheroes as a way to pay the bills, and creator-owned characters as their real work. (See: Ellis, Warren; Ennis, Garth.)

2) There wasn’t as much to rip off in the old days. No one works in a creative vacuum, and art and communication is very much about reprocessing what has come before. Today’s creators have some 70 years’ worth of superhero material to stripmine for ideas, whereas Golden Age and Silver Age creators had much less to steal. But they still did! Let’s not forget that the Fantastic Four managed to recycle the Challengers of Unknown, ‘50s monster comics and their very first superhero character from the ‘40s.

3) We’re pretty big on retro in all facets of culture anyway. Fashion brings back bell bottoms, today’s musicians sample disco, movie studios roll out re-makes and sequels. The trend does seem much more pronounced in superhero comics, but it’s also a much smaller and more limited form of art than “fashion” or “music”

4) Dominance of the Big Two. Creating new properties in the ‘90s wasn’t a problem when companies like Image, Dark Horse, BIG, Ultraverse, Valiant, Defiant, etc., were launching superhero universes left and right. And I’m pretty sure the percentage of university grads in the ‘90s was pretty close to what it is today.

5) It’s been stated already, but it’s worth saying again because I think it’s the main cause: superhero fans don’t want new. After seeing hundreds of new characters (and dozens of superhero universes) fail within the last decade, I can’t blame comic companies for spoonfeeding fans what they want, much as I want to see something different. You suck, average comic fan! There’s lots of good stuff out there if you look for it.

[Apathy Boy]

Oh, and Jeph Loeb is successful because writing ability is only one determinant of making it as a writer. Loeb’s not a great writer, but he markets himself well and is extremely talented at networking (much like Stan Lee, if you think of it). Loeb is phenomenal at making friends with marketable talents and convincing them to work with him. He’s brought Joe Mad, Scott Campbell, Ed McGuinness and Rob Liefeld to him with Marvel during his latest exclusive. The man is a friggin’ pimp.

The other thing he does well is hit the big story beats. The man knows how to deliver a story pitch, and I suspect that comes from his background as a Hollywood writer. Loeb thinks of Big Blockbuster Ideas that get people excited, then crams them into a story regardless of logic.

As an illustration of this last point: I think most people will agree that Mike Carey is a much better writer than Jeph Loeb. But Carey doesn’t have the blockbuster mentality. Did anyone think “Ultimate Fantastic Four meets the Forever People” would be a breakaway hit? If Loeb wrote ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR, his first arc would probably involve the UFF fighting the Anti-Monitor during the Age of Acopalypse or something.

[the film freak]

Oh, and Jeph Loeb is successful because writing ability is only one determinant of making it as a writer. Loeb’s not a great writer, but he markets himself well and is extremely talented at networking (much like Stan Lee, if you think of it). Loeb is phenomenal at making friends with marketable talents and convincing them to work with him. He’s brought Joe Mad, Scott Campbell, Ed McGuinness and Rob Liefeld to him with Marvel during his latest exclusive. The man is a friggin’ pimp.

The other thing he does well is hit the big story beats. The man knows how to deliver a story pitch, and I suspect that comes from his background as a Hollywood writer. Loeb thinks of Big Blockbuster Ideas that get people excited, then crams them into a story regardless of logic.

As an illustration of this last point: I think most people will agree that Mike Carey is a much better writer than Jeph Loeb. But Carey doesn’t have the blockbuster mentality. Did anyone think “Ultimate Fantastic Four meets the Forever People” would be a breakaway hit? If Loeb wrote ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR, his first arc would probably involve the UFF fighting the Anti-Monitor during the Age of Acopalypse or something.

You hit the nail on the head. The guy knows how to come up with things that get his artists and fans excited even if he can't pull it off in his writing. Like the Zombie Justice League or Uncle Sam obtaining the Green Lantern ring in Superman/Batman. He's definately high concept. I think Jeph Loeb would be an awesome editor in chief.

[brundlefly]

He’s brought Joe Mad, Scott Campbell, Ed McGuinness and Rob Liefeld to him with Marvel during his latest exclusive.

That's a bit of a mixed blessing....

[Karl O'Neill]

He gets work because, for some unfathomable reason, because your assesment of his skills is pretty accurate IMO, his name sells books. And lots of them.

Now in defence of the original point of current writers doing very little but regurgitating old stories, what else are they supposed to do?
I simply don't think it is possible to do a Batman or Superman orSpider-Man story that hasn't been done bfore in some way.
And when one does find a more or less new angle (Murderer/Fugitive, Spider-Man unmasked, Aunt May finds out th secret, Superman gets a kid...) fans respond largely negative.
As for doing something really original and creating new characters: Aztek, Chase, Skull Kill Krew, Vext, Human Defense Corps, Hitman, Araña, Alias/The Pulse, Major Bummer, Ressurection Man...
There is nothing guarantees commercial suicide like original characters (at the big 2 anyway).

Hush is a masterpiece.