Avengers Movie *Spoilers*

[StoneGold]

Actions do not reflect beliefs? Seriously? This is a movie where the first part consists of the heroes going 'nukes are bad, mmm'kay?' And then in the finale they end up using a nuke to save the day and everyone's hunky dory with it. Talk about mixed messages.

In that huge wall of text you didn't read, I suggested that the point of the movie is that morality ultimately is unimportant in superheroes. As long as you condemn bad things overtly, that's enough. You don't even have to follow your own advice. Blowing up aliens with a nuke is cool as heck, let's collectively forget our previous misgivings with nukes. Nick Fury hacks into millions of cellphones and computers to find Loki, this is like that scene from The Dark Knight x 1000. He does this right in front of Captain America, and no one raises a fuss. No one cares. Not even the audience. TDK was just overdramatic, trying to force a moral lesson onto an otherwise amoral comic book world. What it should've focused on was the fight scenes.

Please, Captain America just found out what a cell phone was 30 minutes ago.

[Death by Mime]

Please, Captain America just found out what a cell phone was 30 minutes ago.

The question is not why they didn't speak up, it's why did that scene exist to begin with? What was the purpose in showing SHIELD can hack the world if it's going to be casually brushed off? And of course it wouldn't ruin the movie, a building theme in the earlier half was the shadiness of SHIELD, hence why Iron Man started hacking the place. Seeing that SHIELD casually violates everyone's privacy is arguably as bad as them building better WMDs, and could have tied in to their antagonism with SHIELD. Instead that scene exists to go unnoticed, to show that no one cares.

Also Banner was there, he didn't care either.

[KingofMadCows]

I wonder why it took them so long to begin developing weapons based on the Tesseract. Howard Stark recovered the thing 50 or 60 years ago. They have a ton of Hydra tech based on the device and they have the main scientist who invented those weapons. Did they really just let that thing sit in a vault for half a century? They didn't even take it out during the Cold War and try to make weapons to use against the Soviets? Plus considering how it took Hydra a couple of years, at the most, to make a ton of really impressive weapons based on the Tesseract, you'd think it would take modern day scientists even less time to be able to exploit its power.

Also, how did the thing get left on earth in the first place? Is Odin so absent minded that he just lost one of the most powerful artifacts in the universe on a primitive planet for hundreds of years? Didn't one of the guards at the weapons vault notice the thing was missing? Didn't anyone ask Odin about it? Did Odin just go, "eh, don't worry about it, I probably dropped in the couch of infinite cushions again."

[StoneGold]

I wonder why it took them so long to begin developing weapons based on the Tesseract. Howard Stark recovered the thing 50 or 60 years ago. They have a ton of Hydra tech based on the device and they have the main scientist who invented those weapons. Did they really just let that thing sit in a vault for half a century? They didn't even take it out during the Cold War and try to make weapons to use against the Soviets? Plus considering how it took Hydra a couple of years, at the most, to make a ton of really impressive weapons based on the Tesseract, you'd think it would take modern day scientists even less time to be able to exploit its power.

For the same reason they weren't able to remake the SSS. People in the 40s were just smarter. Without Arnim Zola, they weren't able to have a similar breakthrough until Loki was possessing Selvig.

[KingofMadCows]

And I say that it's BS, because you seem to think that just because he doesn't enforce YOUR values of what constitutes "strong women" that he's not a strong advocate.

And what exactly is MY values of what constitutes "strong women?"

Except in this case, where Whedon has done that for that explicit purpose.

And he fails by not normalize the concept.

OK, first thing- "Far Beyond the Stars." Yeah.

That's what I meant when I said:

his race isn't even brought up except for one or two episodes.

Also, it's one or two episodes... out of 176. And despite the heavy handedness of the message about race, it was one of several major themes of the episode. The episode was a tribute to all the sci-fi writers who worked under those kinds of conditions to help develop the genre as well as all the writers working behind the scenes to make these sci-fi shows and movies. It was also a tribute to all the actors who hide their faces behind make up. There were themes about how people try to repress and destroy ideas that are beyond their own conception. There's also the "Trek-ish" ideas about what is nature of reality, how do we conceptualize and interact with it, and how expanding our imagination can also expand our consciousness and awareness of the universe.

Secondly, a work not talking about someones race or gender does not make it implicitly superior to a work that makes it a central theme. They take different methods of trying to tell different stories.

DS9 WAS NOT ABOUT and DID NOT SET OUT TO BE a show about a black captain or his female second in command. Buffy- FROM IT'S VERY INCEPTION- was SUPPOSED to be about SUBVERTING THE TYPICAL HORROR CONVENTIONS OF A YOUNG FEMALE STALKED BY A MONSTER, and turing THAT on it's ear. The topic of gender is MORE important to Buffy than race was to DS9. Hence why so many people acknowledge it as a major work in regards to feminism.

And ironically, "Helpless" follows the trope of final girl just like those movies he supposedly want to subvert. Movies like Jeepers Creepers, Halloween, Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street, Scream, Alien, etc.

They are and were for Buffy. Show stated that several times.

And why are you fine with that? Why is it OK for Buffy's physical training to be useless without her powers while male characters do not suffer from such a shortcoming?

Nope. Sorry. The show you keep bringing up- "Helpless"- explicitly shows that they didn't.

Watch the episode again. Buffy loses coordination, becomes clumsy, and physically weak. She became a novice with the weapons she trained to use for years.

Buffy was scared because she didn't know what was happening to her or why. When she found out, she was pissed. And I don't know how being frightened of a psychotic vampire in a darkened maze without someone's her super strength wouldn't be a horrific experience. In addition, it wouldn't be as compelling if Buffy went into the battle without her strength fully confident and assured she could kill the Vampire and save her mother. Showing her frightened and afraid, yet still putting her life on the line and managing to outwit and defeat her opponent makes her victory all the sweeter.

First of all, Buffy was frightened long before she had to fight the psychotic vampire. Second, as mentioned before, Xander isn't nearly as frightened by similar situations despite never having any powers or training and constantly getting his ass kicked by monsters. Third, even if she retained her skills, it doesn't mean she'll retain her confidence, nor does it mean she'll be able to defeat demons as easily as before. There's a continuum between super powerful and weak. The problem with Buffy becoming weak is the implication that is her natural state. They keep bringing up how Buffy is becoming a "normal" girl. The implication of that is "normal" girls are physically weak even if they have years of training. Rather than having the super power be a boost to the physical prowess and martial abilities that Buffy has trained years to achieve, they made it the entirety of her physical abilities.

There was absolutely no reason to diminish the physical abilities that Buffy earned through her training in order to show her as being able to defeat a monster and face her fears without her powers. In fact, it would have highlighted not only Buffy's courage and will power but also the courage of her nonpowered friends if they showed Buffy retaining her training and still being easily defeated in physical confrontations against demons without the aid of her powers. Not only that but instead of just making it one episode, they could have made it into an arc where Buffy seems to lose her powers permanently, she has to cope with the long term ramifications but does not let it stop her from being the Slayer and trains harder to compensate for the loss of her supernatural abilities.

In addition, it's two separate circumstances. Buffy lost her powers as a form of test by the Watchers. Angel was a being that had been a lifeless demon for two centuries, and it was established that being human again would be something he would relish.

How does the fact that Angel relishes becoming human allow him to retain his training? And how does that allow him to retain the courage to face down a demon who's almost as strong as the Slayer and has super regeneration powers?

Only to you.

Do you have a version of the show where Willow doesn't use magic to give Slayer powers to all the potentials?

You missed the message of the event.

It wasn't that women need supernatural powers to be strong. It was explicitly stated that it was Buffy giving the potentials- ALL potentials- control of their own destiny and their own lives.

How did Buffy give the potentials control of their own destiny and lives? By helping them to realize that they can achieve their goals through conviction and hard work or by using magic to give them demon strength?

Oh, and you've just made my point. Why did Buffy have to give the potentials control of the potentials' own destinies and lives? Think of what that implies. What were their lives like before Buffy gave them control of their destinies? What if Buffy hadn't given all the potentials control of their own destinies? Would they not have control of their own lives? Why is that something that needs to be given in the first place? Why is it not something that the potentials don't naturally have or can't take for themselves?

And as people have continually pointed out to you, that never stops any other spy movies, nor does it stop them from being produced.

And the existence of McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, Jack in the Box, and Carl's Junior/Hardee's haven't stopped people from trying to open new hamburger fast food restaurants. But often does a new burger fast food chain become big enough to really compete with those guys?

"Uniqueness" does not equal "More marketable."

It'd be easier to make a Black Widow film than to try and spin Loki, despite your nay saying.

Except I gave other advantages Loki has. He can fill that anti-hero niche Marvel/Disney currently lacks. He's got a lot less competition than Black Widow. Also, considering how much development they've given Loki already, there's almost no need to spin him.

[KingofMadCows]

For the same reason they weren't able to remake the SSS. People in the 40s were just smarter. Without Arnim Zola, they weren't able to have a similar breakthrough until Loki was possessing Selvig.

They did have Howard Stark.

Although it does make me wonder how much the Marvel universe is like the real world. Their tech level seems about the same but Stark had a prototype hoovering car back in the 40's. You'd think some of that tech would have been proliferated by the present time.

[Jim Thompson]

Actions do not reflect beliefs? Seriously? This is a movie where the first part consists of the heroes going 'nukes are bad, mmm'kay?' And then in the finale they end up using a nuke to save the day and everyone's hunky dory with it. Talk about mixed messages.

I don't think we watched the same movie. The Avengers didn't launch a nuke; they did redirect one that was launched.

[Death by Mime]

I don't think we watched the same movie. The Avengers didn't launch a nuke; they did redirect one that was launched.

It is my eternal curse to repeat myself:

But in the end, Iron Man makes the decision to play into the whole nuclear deterrent myth, and flies the nuke through the portal into their enemies. Now of course it's not Iron Man's fault, he was forced into it and put in a very bad situation. But he should be mad as hell at the people who put him in that situation to begin with. The basis for his entire character is that he was horrified by the misuse of weapons, and thus turned his back on his weapon mongering ways. And now this shadow government has nearly nuked an entire city, forcing him to kill this alien army instead. He should be furious! So should Thor, this is exactly what he was lecturing Nick Fury about. So should Captain America. So should the Hulk. They should all be furious about this. But none of them are. They've forgotten about Phase 2, they don't care anymore. The ending montage is not the Avengers splitting from SHIELD and preparing to take on the Council (now that would be a sequel hook), it is them casually disassembling and going their separate ways, because there's nothing left for them to do anymore, right?

And the Avengers don't care. Their victory ought to be entirely tainted, because all of them to a man are against weapons proliferation. But their victory is treated as an unqualified success, when they should all be furious that the shadow government (lol, as if the Senate is higher up than the Council) nearly nuked a city, and forced them to nuke an alien race in return.

This is what I mean, they follow the introduction of the nuke with the movie wrapping up. They didn't have to do that, they could've switched the acts around so that the Council nearly nuking a city sparks a major conflict with the Avengers. Conflict! Whee! Exciting! But the nuke is treated as part of the resolution, and everyone just quietly accepts it. The entire structure of the movie doesn't even give the Avengers a chance to treat the nuke as something problematic. A major part of this movie deals with Phase 2, an obvious analogy for nuclear proliferation. Why then, when an actual nuke comes into play, does the movie fail to give it the attention it deserves?

[tommyman]

It is my eternal curse to repeat myself:

Wow, the movie I saw was broken and heavily edited to be different to the one you saw.
Because obviously in the one you saw, the final scenes had dialogue where the Avengers say that they are going their separate ways and there is nothing more to do, and nothing about nukes or phase 2 bothers them, at all.

The movie I saw had no dialogue at that point, but Banner left with Stark, and the others look friendly enough.
I didn't see or hear where they are going or what they intend to do.
I could claim that they are saying "and tomorrow we meet up and take down the council and destroy all the phase 2 weapons".
But that would be just making shit up.

Or they could just ignore those massive plot holes and go in a different direction, forgetting the nuke and the phase 2 stuff.
I don't know, I haven't been to the future and seen the next few films like you have.

Basically you are just going to keep bitching on and on about this movie.
Every time somebody answers one complaint you just then switch to something else for a few pages, then backtrack to start the same complaints that have been answered five pages earlier.
Rinse and repeat.

Email your enormous list of complaints to Joss Whedon.
I'm sure he'll want to shoot some extra scenes to fix it all for the blu-ray release, enlightened by your vast and superior film-making and story-telling abilities.
Then he'll want you to write the next few movies so that they aren't the sort of massively financially successful, almost universally enjoyed, critically praised, record breaking failures this one was.

[Death by Mime]

Wow, the movie I saw was broken and heavily edited to be different to the one you saw.
Because obviously in the one you saw, the final scenes had dialogue where the Avengers say that they are going their separate ways and there is nothing more to do, and nothing about nukes or phase 2 bothers them, at all.

The movie I saw had no dialogue at that point, but Banner left with Stark, and the others look friendly enough.
I didn't see or hear where they are going or what they intend to do.
I could claim that they are saying "and tomorrow we meet up and take down the council and destroy all the phase 2 weapons".
But that would be just making shit up.

Or they could just ignore those massive plot holes and go in a different direction, forgetting the nuke and the phase 2 stuff.
I don't know, I haven't been to the future and seen the next few films like you have.

Basically you are just going to keep bitching on and on about this movie.
Every time somebody answers one complaint you just then switch to something else for a few pages, then backtrack to start the same complaints that have been answered five pages earlier.
Rinse and repeat.

Email your enormous list of complaints to Joss Whedon.
I'm sure he'll want to shoot some extra scenes to fix it all for the blu-ray release, enlightened by your vast and superior film-making and story-telling abilities.
Then he'll want you to write the next few movies so that they aren't the sort of massively financially successful, almost universally enjoyed, critically praised, record breaking failures this one was.

You are just adorable, man. I'm saying the characters failed to do anything re: Phase 2, and you're saying, well, maybe the characters did do something, the movie just didn't show it. It's so cute, it's like you believe they're real people who exist off-camera.

[tommyman]

You are just adorable, man. I'm saying the characters failed to do anything re: Phase 2, and you're saying, well, maybe the characters did do something, the movie just didn't show it. It's so cute, it's like you believe they're real people who exist off-camera.

No, I've already said,
1. By removing the Teseract, the power source and inspiration for phase 2 they have shut it down.
2. By exposing the existence of Phase 2 they have set in motion it's likely closure.
3. That it's just as likely as your claim that they will do nothing more after the end of the movie that they will do something.

And again, exactly as I said, I dealt with this pages ago, you bitched about something else for a bit, then came back to it when you thought nobody was looking.
Still here, still dealt with.
No Teseract, no Phase 2.
Something which you ignored last time I posted it, and will ignore again, instead complaining something like this:

You: "what about the nuke? They don't do anything about the nuke. They were all against nukes then they use one."
Anyone else: "they sent the nuke into space/another dimension, they did something about it. They didn't fire it, they redirected it to save 8 million plus people. Would you rather they stood on principle and let it blow up New York, to no end since the Chitauri mothership would be unharmed and they would just send in more troops?"

You: "Those so-called easter eggs sucked! Maria Hill does nothing. Why is she even in this movie?"
Anyone else: "It's an easter egg. An extra bit of info that is a nod and wink to those who know the source material, who know that perhaps this seemingly insignificant character may get a larger more important role down the line"

You: "The portal meant nothing. They didn't even try to shut it down, and even if they did, it was a waste of time because a nuke solved everything so why did they waste time on the portal that they didn't even try to shut down but if they had it was stupid of them because the nuke killed all the Chitauri!"
Anyone else: "They did try to close the portal, repeatedly. They did in fact discover how to close it, and did so. If they had not closed it, a portal to another world/dimension hostile to ours would have remained open over New York, and that would be Quite Bad."

You: "What about Phase 2? They just ignored it and all walked away without even trying to do something"
etc. etc. etc.

There.
I've saved you, and everybody else, the bother of posting for a few pages.

We'll be picking it up on "what about the nuke?" in 3,2,1...

[Death by Mime]

No, I've already said,
1. By removing the Teseract, the power source and inspiration for phase 2 they have shut it down.
2. By exposing the existence of Phase 2 they have set in motion it's likely closure.
3. That it's just as likely as your claim that they will do nothing more after the end of the movie that they will do something.

And again, exactly as I said, I dealt with this pages ago, you bitched about something else for a bit, then came back to it when you thought nobody was looking.
Still here, still dealt with.
No Teseract, no Phase 2.
Something which you ignored last time I posted it, and will ignore again, instead complaining something like this:

You: "what about the nuke? They don't do anything about the nuke. They were all against nukes then they use one."
Anyone else: "they sent the nuke into space/another dimension, they did something about it. They didn't fire it, they redirected it to save 8 million plus people. Would you rather they stood on principle and let it blow up New York, to no end since the Chitauri mothership would be unharmed and they would just send in more troops?"

You: "Those so-called easter eggs sucked! Maria Hill does nothing. Why is she even in this movie?"
Anyone else: "It's an easter egg. An extra bit of info that is a nod and wink to those who know the source material, who know that perhaps this seemingly insignificant character may get a larger more important role down the line"

You: "The portal meant nothing. They didn't even try to shut it down, and even if they did, it was a waste of time because a nuke solved everything so why did they waste time on the portal that they didn't even try to shut down but if they had it was stupid of them because the nuke killed all the Chitauri!"
Anyone else: "They did try to close the portal, repeatedly. They did in fact discover how to close it, and did so. If they had not closed it, a portal to another world/dimension hostile to ours would have remained open over New York, and that would be Quite Bad."

You: "What about Phase 2? They just ignored it and all walked away without even trying to do something"
etc. etc. etc.

There.
I've saved you, and everybody else, the bother of posting for a few pages.

We'll be picking it up on "what about the nuke?" in 3,2,1...

It's amazing how bad your reading comprehension is.

Phase 2 is making WMDs to defend the world from aliens. It turns out normal nukes work absolutely spectacularly in this regard, therefore Phase 2 will now involve making more regular nukes. The Council was perfectly secure in its decision to blow up a city to destroy the aliens. Instead, their nuke saved the world, it blew up the alien invaders without destroying the city at all, why would the Council be shut down because of that?

Of course they had no choice but to throw the nuke in the portal, but they were not unhappy about it, it did not taint their victory, they treated the nuking of the Chitauri as a pure victory. Why?

The ending battle consists of them trying to close the portal, forgetting about it, fighting Chitauri for twenty minutes, and then getting back to closing the portal. In the meantime none of the Chitauri try to stop them from closing the portal. What kind of lousy fight is this?

[Walsh06]

Why do you keep referring to the end of the movie as though it was something?? All that happened was the battle ended and then they got together to see Thor and Loki off. There wasnt even dialogue??

Anywho I just assume you are having a good laugh because you are doing this for fun. Im surprised people keep coming back to you as you are obviously doing this for fun. Whether you did enjoy the movie or not is irrelevant because no one acts as stupid as you are acting.

[Death by Mime]

Why do you keep referring to the end of the movie as though it was something?? All that happened was the battle ended and then they got together to see Thor and Loki off. There wasnt even dialogue??

That's exactly what I'm referring to: nothing happened. The battle ended, everyone goes home. The Council nearly nuked a city, Iron Man was forced to use the nuke to kill a bunch of aliens. Iron Man is against nukes in general, the Avengers are all against nukes in general, and yet nothing happens. They all just say their goodbyes. Why didn't they do anything? Why didn't they get upset?

[tommyman]

It's amazing how bad your reading comprehension is.

Phase 2 is making WMDs to defend the world from aliens. It turns out normal nukes work absolutely spectacularly in this regard, therefore Phase 2 will now involve making more regular nukes. The Council was perfectly secure in its decision to blow up a city to destroy the aliens. Instead, their nuke saved the world, it blew up the alien invaders without destroying the city at all, why would the Council be shut down because of that?

Of course they had no choice but to throw the nuke in the portal, but they were not unhappy about it, it did not taint their victory, they treated the nuking of the Chitauri as a pure victory. Why?

The ending battle consists of them trying to close the portal, forgetting about it, fighting Chitauri for twenty minutes, and then getting back to closing the portal. In the meantime none of the Chitauri try to stop them from closing the portal. What kind of lousy fight is this?

Right on time, in you come with "What about the nukes?" again.

Ignore that I answered your point about phase 2 again, and switch back to the nukes.

Then go back to complaining that they didn't shut the portal down, then complain that they did, then complain that despite the Chitauri clearly focusing their efforts on the Avengers that "none of the Chitauri try to stop them from closing the portal".