Courtesy of CBR:
And so the true craziness begins. I wonder if Casey will bring up the wonkiness of using a man's complete mental breakdown as a trap for marrying him.
The Punisher: I’m going to cauterize your rectum, sealing it shut, so when you turn those delicious Pink Pants™ Fruit Pies into waste products the bilirubin in your feces will leach into your bloodstream and you’ll die screaming! And I’ll watch while having sex with this grateful prostitute!
Trussed-Up Hooker: Blueberry are my favorite!
In other words, what StoneGold said.
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Looks good! I'm really enjoying this series and my knowledge of Avenger's history is pretty sketchy, so for the most part I'm seeing these events play out for the first time!
The art in this series has a certain Silver Age style to it too, which is really fitting to the subject matter.
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All-Star Western • Avenging Spider-Man • Hit-Girl • Lady Mechanika • Road To Oz • Sherlock Holmes: The Liverpool Demon • Superior Spider-Man • Star Wars • Star Wars: Dark Times
Hank Pym does NOT look happy to marry janet on the cover. just my opinion.
we don't know that that's really Hank Pym on the cover yet...
After all, when the wedding occurs, he isn't supposed to be in a tux, but in the new Yellowjacket costume until the big reveal happens (See Avengers #60, also reprinted in Marvel Tripple Action...and more recently in Essential Avengers Volume #3!)
Last edited by Kirk G; 01-11-2007 at 08:01 PM.
New avengers news and speculation, definietely put that there.
Mighty avengers news and speculation, maybe, but pointless since we knew the team members like, 3 months ago.
but the mighty+new avengers should not be here.
Also, I've wondered for years why it was that NOBODY except for Jan figured it out. That is, spoilers:
end of spoilers and that it would all be explained in the ceremony??!!
Yellowjacket has nothing over his chin, mouth, cheeks...and Giant-Man also had nothing disguising his voice. So, why didn't Cap, Clint, T'Challa, Vision (especially), the FF, Nick Fury and all the rest recognise that something funny was going on... that this was their collegue who was pulling some costumed stunt? (Or maybe they DID, and decided to humor him, or to play along, thinking it was a prank on Jan... or maybe that this was a change for Hank
It just didn't ring true at the time it was unveiled in Avengers #59-60... but it also felt rushed to fit into the end of #60 without some further explanation.
That same lack of investigation will come back to bite them in the butt later... see #55 Crimson Cowl is Ultron 6... #60 appearance of Yellowjacket... #66 Betrayal by a team member... etc, etc...
Last edited by Kirk G; 01-11-2007 at 08:00 PM. Reason: to add spoilers
It was glaringly apparent back then (#59) that YJ was Hank, and I was a child when I first read this story. I thought it was laughable that no one recognized his voice or anything. I mean, they were fighting him, they could see his EYES. Jan didn't know until "later" that this guy was her long-time boyfriend?? It truly strained credulity. And wasn't the Panther supposed to have super-infallible "jungle senses" so that he could recognize people by scent?
Also, I guess it's the first time Crystal and Dane Whitman crossed paths since both were at the wedding (though the EMH2 cover shows her with the "4" emblem on her chest, and back then her FF uniform didn't have that...just a small "4" emblem on her belt). But I guess EMH2 is not meant to be a slavish recreation (Jan's costume is colored different from the original, too).
And in the original #60, in the full-page spread of the wedding guests, Hawkeye is shown yakking it up with his future rival for Natasha's affections (Daredevil).
Last edited by Ventura; 01-11-2007 at 04:54 PM.
I was a kid of ten, I believe, and I swallowed it hook line and sinker in issue #59.... and when #60 came out, I enjoyed it, but on reflection, thought it was a convoluted way to produce a wedding issue... with the requisit group fight... and a rushed explanation in the final page or so. spoilers:Glaringly apparant???!!!
end of spoilers
I did like to twist of Jan explaining that she knew all along.
I didn't think that the others knew.... especially Hawkeye! He was ready to bust Yellowjacket from word one.
What was the clue that turned you onto the fact that spoilers:
end of spoilersBut I never saw the reverse coming.
he was hank or that Giant-Man hadn't been done away with? (No, I never bought that Giant-Man was gone, dead, or otherwise, cause we only had Yellowjacket's word for it... but I did buy that this was a unique new individual who was a villian... and that Jan was at least saying that she was going to marry him!
Why did you?
And when did you first read this? Before or after Avengers #60 came out? In the late 1960s or during the 1970s reprints?
Inquiring minds want to know!
Last edited by Kirk G; 01-11-2007 at 07:58 PM. Reason: to add spoilers
Apart from the fact that Hank never "appeared" in the story (except in YJ's retelling of what had supposedly happened)--plus the similar powers (controlling insects)--plus he seemed to know stuff about the Avengers (such as the Vision was a synthezoid, not exactly an everyday term back then)--the real tip-off for me were the close-up panels when YJ was going to kiss Jan. I just knew those blue eyes had to belong to Hank! Why else show the close-ups?
Also, a couple of issues earlier, (#57, the Vision issue) Hank had made a cryptic remark to Jan, something to the effect that he wanted to talk to her about "things" or something like that. So I figured Roy had some big plans in store for Hank.
I remember thinking I was so smart to have figured it out, and then when #60 came out with the revelation, I was very smug with some of my friends (who hadn't bought into my theory). I remember I bought Avengers #60 on the way to a birthday party with those same friends. I'd bought X-Men #52 and FF#83 at that same time. It was November 1968 (not the cover date of the books, but the actual month). I - -and a couple of other equally comics-crazed kids- -spent that party reading these comics. Ah, it was great time.
I don't have that physical issue any more (#59), but I seem to recall that in the letters column (or maybe in #60), Stan invited readers to send in letters detailing the clues (that Hank was YJ). I think I even sent in a letter, but apparently so did lots of people and Marvel awarded a no-prize, to the first letter they'd received about the clues. This was noted in later letter column.
I agree with you, back in #59-60, the other Avengers did not know or suspect that YJ was Hank. Roy wrote it that they were completely clueless (except for Jan). And I guess in order to make the story work in that more innocent time, the reader had to suspend disbelief. But you know to this day I still wonder why T'Challa's panther senses didn't kick in!
But I've read that in EMH2, the modern "twist" will be that the Avengers did know it was Hank all along (again, I have not actually read EMH2 yet, this is just what I've read about it on websites).
And yes, that panel of Hank growing and busting out of his YJ costume was powerful and John B at his best. As I think we've discussed previously, John B drew a GREAT Goliath.
And I loved how loyal Hawkeye was to Hank in those issues.
Last edited by Ventura; 01-18-2007 at 04:32 PM. Reason: corrected typo, changed X-Man to X-Men
Okay now, I looked up in my Essential Avengers Volume 3... issues #57-60 of the original Avengers run... just to check out "all the clues" in the first appearance of Yellowjacket!
It was much as I remembered, except it wasn't quite as blatent in revealing or typing the hand on what was coming as I might have expected.
Now, in EMH II 1-4, we certainly see the foreshadowing for Hank under stress, and his relative reactions to these events... but, we still haven't seen the arrival of Yellowjacket yet.
I did dig up at least two references to making a date with the Avengers to discuss something important with them (Jan first, then T'Challa) before Hank vanishes... and in hind sight, it now seems clear that Roy Thomas was working toward something in his foreshadowing... but as a kid, each issue stood somewhat alone, and except for the obvioius cliff-hanger at the end of 59 with the Wasp announcing that she was going to marry him, I never connected ANY of the dots.
It appear more clear to me now, that the stories are plotted out in two to four issue arcs, though the stories are not necessarily set out that way.
If you take issues #51 and 52 as separate one shots, then 54 & 55 (first appearance of the Crimson Cowl and Masters of Evil) are paired together. So does #53 stand with X-Men #45 as a pair, plotted together...
#56 (Death be Not Proud") has to stand with Avengers Annual #2 as a pair...
so that leaves #57-58 for the origin of the Vision... and #59-60 for Yellowjacket. #61 stands alone, as does #62. Then we get to a three part arc with Gene Colan where Hawkeye switches into Goliath II...in #63-65 when we learn his real name and relations in 65
It becomes clear to me that the focus initally is on
Ann #2-Cap & original Avengers
61-Dr strange/Black knight
63-65 Clint/Goliath II
69- Tony Stark
It seems more obvious than ever, that Roy had intended someplace prior to 57 to remold Hank, and clear the way for Hawkeye/Clint to move in as Goliath II. If the Vision was always intended to betray the Avengers, then this forms a large year long arc, in effect.
If the Vision/Yellowjacket stories are viewed together... then count the number of failed memories, repressed memories, surprise memories that spring from Hank... Once, that he created Ultron... another that he boarded up his suburban lab... another that he was "K-O"-ed by Yellowjacket.. and finally, looking ahead... he is hypnotized by someone into believing that he's the developer of Admantium in #68! No wonder the guys got mental problems. He says as much in early #63 when he says his constant growing must have played a role in his breakdown.
Hell, the guy was "breaking down" in every other storyline. Under that much stress, why would the other Avengers trust him? I'd have retired him for a good long while on the warming bench...not just for a two month honeymoon!
Last edited by Kirk G; 01-15-2007 at 08:04 PM.
And, that seemingly gratuitous two-page spread of reveries in #59 also contained another clue (this is a expansion of something I already mentioned in my earlier post). I am quoting from memory because I don't have my Essentials in front of me (I'm at work! :o ), but IIRC, in the Visions' reverie, he is walking with Hawkeye and someone calls him (Vizh) a "crummy android" or something. Yet YJ refers to the Vision as a "synthezoid." So it was apparent to me, that while the world at large might know the term android, only an "insider" would know the term synthezoid. Even T'Challa did not know of the term (in #57), until Hawkeye explained it to him.
Later on, when I can refer to my Essentials, I'll comment on your interesting points about the arcs and Hank's breakdown.
Last edited by Ventura; 01-16-2007 at 06:29 PM. Reason: typo, changed #58 to #57 (synthezoid reference). 'Nuff said.
When Hank returned to the Avengers in #28, he was worried about the effect growing would have on him and that he would not be able to grow as he had before (when he was Giant-Man). As Goliath, he grew but then he got stuck at his 10 foot size. He started looking for a cure, with Bill Foster. They worked on getting him back down to normal size, and in #35 it appeared he was cured, and could now revert to his normal height, as well as shrink and grow. It should be mentioned that Hank refers to the fact that he subjected himself to the "rays of an experimental molecular space transformer..." (yes, I am reunited with my Essentials!) And who knows how many other rays they experimented with?
Anyway, after #35 all seemed well with Hank for a while, until the repressed memory of the lab break-in you mention. While it came to light in #58, it was a flashback to around sometime after the Dragon Man fight (in #41), but because there was much continuous action since #41 (through #44), it's hard to pinpoint exactly when it may have occurred...could have been just after #44...or just after Avengers Annual #1...or after #45..or just after #46 and before #47; or possibly just after #50 and before #51.
And in #46, Hank thinks to himself that he's not useful to the team anymore, since Hercules has joined. This is one of the earliest signs of self-doubt I've seen from Hank (apart from his doubts in #28 and his self-pity when he was stuck at 10 feet). So in #46 he is concerned with re-establishing his control over ants. Then Whirlwind subjects Hank and Jan to Hank's new "reducing ray", which shrinks them against their will. At the end of #46, Cap shines the ray on them again, which reverts them back to normal size, but Hank says they're getting too large a dose! And Cap worries about possible after-effects.
Then in #48-50, Hank has lost his ability to grow (due, he says, to overtaxing his power when growing to 25 feet in #48, along with the many years of straining his molecules when growing). In #50 Jan thinks that his losing his growth power is a blessing in disguise, because then they can both quit and get married. Hey, Jan was a real team player back then...:rolleyes:
In #51 he is again being subjected to rays of some sort (from a "vibrotron"). Then in the very same issue, the Collector shoots him full of rays; this time, it works and Hank can grow--even taller than before! And, the end of #51, Hank is again hooked up to a machine--a "stim-o-lator" (conceived by Iron Man), which makes his growing power permanent.
Interestingly, there was also the recent trauma of time travel (in Avengers Annual #2, which preceded Avengers #57), when Hank came face to face with "himself"...Cap even remarks that Hank is starting to "break". Makes you appreciate how resilient Jan is (apparently getting doused by rays in #46 did not adversely affect her and she seemed to handle meeting her old self in the Annual with more composure than Hank did).
So... even though back then (in the 1960s) he was generally written as being in control (except for a few issues such as #59, 60 and Annual 2) and he was the de facto leader after Cap left (#47), Hank's real persona becomes much clearer if you consider his history of being bombarded by all sorts of rays (prior to #59). His body (and mind) certainly underwent a lot of punishment when you couple the rays with his size-changing. No wonder he broke down!
I cannot wait to read EMH2 (when it comes out as a collection). This timeframe intrigues me.
I still have more to say about the arcs you mention...there will be another post...:)