The Joker

[bw38]

It's been said before that the Joker needs Batman in order to exist. They are polar opposites essentially. This got me thinking. If it came down to the very end with no interferences or distractions, would either finish the other off? We all know Batman wouldn't. But would the Joker kill off Batman if somehow his crazed scheme worked out? Better yet, would he unmask the Batman before killing him off, or would he just kill off Batman without ever knowing who's under the mask?

On a side note, how would the Joker react if he accidentally found out Batman's secret identity?

[DWEarhart]

In the spirit of the question, you just don't know with the Joker. He could have Batman's entire crew kidnapped, locked away somewhere, have Batman in front of him, down, beaten, a loaded gun pointed at his head, and he'd probably kill off the crew instead, holding a television monitor in front of Batsy, so Joker could watch and savor Batsy's reaction to their deaths. Then, Joker would walk away, singing "Don't you wish your girlfriend was hot -like - me?"

Who's to say he doesn't already know Batsy's secret identity? Everyone and their mother already does. I don't think he'd care. He wants to torment Batman, not Bruce Wayne.

[Hellstormer]

I've wonder about this before and I agree with DWE, we really could never no. Deep down I don't think the Joker would do it, he'd rather just make Bats miserable.

[TheLazy]

I don't know, but I think what DWEarhart said about the joker already know is true. He doesn't want to beat Bruce wayne, Bruce is just a normal guy with a a few bucks in the bank. Batman is an icon, he is the Jokers antagonist.

:)

[bw38]

I don't know, but I think what DWEarhart said about the joker already know is true. He doesn't want to beat Bruce wayne, Bruce is just a normal guy with a a few bucks in the bank. Batman is an icon, he is the Jokers antagonist.

:)

But Bruce Wayne is the man behind the mask. Any torture he causes to Bruce Wayne can affect the Batman as well, at least I'd think so.

It'd be interesting to see what Joker's reaction would be if he tormented Bruce Wayne/Batman to the point where Batman kills for the first time (not the Joker, but someone else).

It's almost as if Joker wants to torment and torture Batman to the point where he becomes a killer. I think Bats would definitely go insane at that point. That of course is all speculation, seeing as he's gone through so much crap in the past that's gotten him close to killing.

[TheLazy]

But Bruce Wayne is the man behind the mask. Any torture he causes to Bruce Wayne can affect the Batman as well, at least I'd think so.

It'd be interesting to see what Joker's reaction would be if he tormented Bruce Wayne/Batman to the point where Batman kills for the first time (not the Joker, but someone else).

It's almost as if Joker wants to torment and torture Batman to the point where he becomes a killer. I think Bats would definitely go insane at that point. That of course is all speculation, seeing as he's gone through so much crap in the past that's gotten him close to killing.

Yes, but the joker is a twincy wincy bit doo-la. To him I'd imagine it being a case of pride. It's like all these villains who could go back in time and destroy superman whilst he was an infant (don't read superman, so dont know any, but im sure there some), but that takes away from the actual moment. Your not really deafeating someone if you dont take them down on a level playing field.

I don't think that the Joker wants to beat Batman so that he can go on killing random people and robbing banks, he wants to kill batman because he wants to win, he wants the satisfaction of knowing that he's better. At least that's my take on the character.

:)

[DWEarhart]

But Bruce Wayne is the man behind the mask. Any torture he causes to Bruce Wayne can affect the Batman as well, at least I'd think so.

It'd be interesting to see what Joker's reaction would be if he tormented Bruce Wayne/Batman to the point where Batman kills for the first time (not the Joker, but someone else).

It's almost as if Joker wants to torment and torture Batman to the point where he becomes a killer. I think Bats would definitely go insane at that point. That of course is all speculation, seeing as he's gone through so much crap in the past that's gotten him close to killing.

The Joker would not want to admit to anyone, least of all himself that this lone pretty boy upstart rich son of bizzatch is the one that's been tormenting him all these years. What is lost in manyof his stories is that Joker is an intellect. If he found out Batman's identity, he would first go into a rage, killing everything and everyone in front of him, because he couldn't believe that this Mr. Moneybags is the one that's been standing in his way of - well, of what? Does the Joker want money? No. Power? Only enough to screw with people. He just wants attention.

He would ignore Wayne himself, but use Wayne's assets to get to Batman, yes, but he doesn't want anyone else to know who's been messing with him because to Joker, Batman is not an aristocrat, Batman is a demon, psychologically and physically, and this demon is the one that's been screwing with Joker's head for a long long time.

I agree that Joker would like to turn Batman into a killer, and maybe there's an underlying notion that the Joker is so miserable he wants to die, but he can't pull the trigger himself. He wants his tormentor to kill him. To do that, he kills the people of his city.

This is all just theoretical, but still a good case study.

[bw38]

The Joker would not want to admit to anyone, least of all himself that this lone pretty boy upstart rich son of bizzatch is the one that's been tormenting him all these years. What is lost in manyof his stories is that Joker is an intellect. If he found out Batman's identity, he would first go into a rage, killing everything and everyone in front of him, because he couldn't believe that this Mr. Moneybags is the one that's been standing in his way of - well, of what? Does the Joker want money? No. Power? Only enough to screw with people. He just wants attention.

He would ignore Wayne himself, but use Wayne's assets to get to Batman, yes, but he doesn't want anyone else to know who's been messing with him because to Joker, Batman is not an aristocrat, Batman is a demon, psychologically and physically, and this demon is the one that's been screwing with Joker's head for a long long time.

I agree that Joker would like to turn Batman into a killer, and maybe there's an underlying notion that the Joker is so miserable he wants to die, but he can't pull the trigger himself. He wants his tormentor to kill him. To do that, he kills the people of his city.

This is all just theoretical, but still a good case study.

With that level of analysis, one can make the exact same case for Bruce Wayne. He doesn't want money, or power. (he basically has both) Just attention. Now for Bruce Wayne, you can connect his need for attention and his identity as the Batman to his parent's death. It's pretty hard to grow up as a only kid and have both of your parents die while you're still young. Kids love to get attention, but obviously for Bruce he couldn't really get that from his parents after they died. Now for the Joker, where does his need for attention come from?

[lllhouselll]

maybe joker was abused as a kid so he wants attention

[rwe1138]

If Joker ever offed Bats, I could see one of two things happening:

1) He'd realize he's accomplished everything he's ever wanted and fragg himself, a la Kraven's Last Hunt

or (more likely)

2) He'd continue to go after the rest of the Bat Family, like Birdboy & Wingding, until they're all dead as well. Then go after Superman, just to show up Lexipoo.

[DWEarhart]

With that level of analysis, one can make the exact same case for Bruce Wayne. He doesn't want money, or power. (he basically has both) Just attention. Now for Bruce Wayne, you can connect his need for attention and his identity as the Batman to his parent's death. It's pretty hard to grow up as a only kid and have both of your parents die while you're still young. Kids love to get attention, but obviously for Bruce he couldn't really get that from his parents after they died. Now for the Joker, where does his need for attention come from?

Oh, hell yeah. Bruce was screwed up, so much that avenging his parents murder became an obesession.

Bruce attributed his dedication to seeking out justice as Batman to his parents' murder, and not wanting to see any other innocents harmed in his city. But, it's not about that anymore, he's grieved, and now after thirty years, it's about doing good. Superman and to a lesser extent Batman set a standard in the DCU. When you're a hero, you don't do it for grattitude, for attention, for any other reason than to do good. But, to think that Bruce wasn't mentally scarred for life after what happened to his parents is indeed foolish. He dresses up like a friggin' bat, of course he's loony. But he loves what he does. He loves being a hero not the acollades that come with it, otherwise you'd find Batman posing for magazine covers and showing up on talk shows.

Joker? We don't know where he comes from, what his background is. It appeared, right before Infinite Crisis, that DC was going to go ahead and use The Killing Joke as his official origin, as A.J. Lieberman had Joker returning to the circus from Killing Joke to recoup after taking a beating at the hands of Hush, but nothing has been made of it since, and after Superboy-Primes reality altering punch, everything is up in the air right now. Red Hood, Joker, and Batman all were supposed to die in the explosion at the end of Batman Annual #25, but again, Superboy-Prime erased that ending.

[Warning: Spoilers From The Killing Joke; in case you haven't read it yet]
His origin is still clouded. Alan Moore clearly stated in the past that Killing Joke was never meant to be an official origin story for the Joker, just a possible one. But, it was so damn good and near perfect - a struggling comedian, a pregnant wife, and no money at all. Some crooks offer him a gig, he just has to wear the red helmet and cloak, and everything that could have gone wrong did. He was scarred by the chemical bath, and the gangsters had his wife killed. He flipped. But, we don't know if it is the definitive origin or not, and personally I would prefer to keep it that way.
[Spoilers End]

We don't know where his need comes from, but his actions show that he needs it. The colorful clothes that he wears, the overly elaborate crimes that creat spectacles mimicking his vicious nature. He wants the spotlight, and he wants to get a reaction out of people, especially one that's so big, it kills them.

But that's my analysis. Everyone has their own, as they are warranted. Whatever DC decides Joker's origin to be, if they decide to give him one, thousands will love it, thousands will hate it, and thousands won't care. I love these characters, and just want to see them in the best stories possible.

[Kara Zor El]

Joker would definitely kill Batman if in the right mood. He may regret it later but he'd do it in a blink. If we are to believe that he wouldn't then you take all of the tension out of their encounters.
I don't think Batman need the Joker to exist though. If the Joker never appeared again it wouldn't bother me. I love the character but he has been overused. Batman has a career without the Clown Prince of Crime just as Bond has one without Blofelfd.

[TheLazy]

Joker would definitely kill Batman if in the right mood. He may regret it later but he'd do it in a blink. If we are to believe that he wouldn't then you take all of the tension out of their encounters.
I don't think Batman need the Joker to exist though. If the Joker never appeared again it wouldn't bother me. I love the character but he has been overused. Batman has a career without the Clown Prince of Crime just as Bond has one without Blofelfd.

I don't think Batman needs the Joker, but the Joker needs Batsy. That doesn't mean he wouldn't kill him, but he'd sure as hell regret it later. I think he might eevn become sane, and try to redeem himself. Actually i think that would make a good read. Copyrighting that idea here and now, you listening Didio, I want royalties

:)

[Alan2099]

Joker would kill Batman in a heartbeat and twice on Tuesday, then he'd make a big deal out of it, milking it for all it's worth, rubbing it in, and going on criminal rampages.

Then he'd start to get board.

He'd probably then try to find a new archenemy to fight and end up picking the wrong guy and getting wasted.

[DWEarhart]

I don't think Batman needs the Joker, but the Joker needs Batsy. That doesn't mean he wouldn't kill him, but he'd sure as hell regret it later. I think he might eevn become sane, and try to redeem himself. Actually i think that would make a good read. Copyrighting that idea here and now, you listening Didio, I want royalties

:)

Sorry, man. J.M. Dematteis sort of beat you to it. Legends o/t Dar Knight #65-#68: Going Sane. Joker thinks he's killed Batman, goes nuts (more), gets plastic surgery, and tries to adopt a normal life.