Is this title in trouble? vol. I: Superman/Batman

[Hush Little Batman]

It seems the book has taken a hard hit creatively and sales-wise ever since Loeb left. It's true that delays have hurt it, but this is a title that was still pushing well over 100k a month as of issue #26 and the
latest figures (#30) show it to be at 84k now. That's a big loss in a small amount of time. Should DC be concerned? Are they neglecting SM/BM because of the great sales being generated by 52? Has it been lost in the shuffle of OYL? Was Loeb really that important to its success? Who should be hired to get this once top selling title back on track?

[PatrickG]

It seems the book has taken a hard hit creatively and sales-wise ever since Loeb left. It's true that delays have hurt it, but this is a title that was still pushing well over 100k a month as of issue #26 and the
latest figures (#30) show it to be at 84k now. That's a big loss in a small amount of time. Should DC be concerned? Are they neglecting SM/BM because of the great sales being generated by 52? Has it been lost in the shuffle of OYL? Was Loeb really that important to its success? Who should be hired to get this once top selling title back on track?

Should DC be concerned?

Yes.

Are they neglecting SM/BM because of the great sales being generated by 52?

I don't see it as either/or.

Has it been lost in the shuffle of OYL?

Somewhat. It does seem to miss out on the major emotional beat of what Superman and Batman have been through in the last year. I suspect a stronger move coming out of INFINITE CRISIS would have been a career retrospective story if the OYL stuff was still being hammered out.

Was Loeb really that important to its success?

I think so.

Look, he works with the top artists in the business so of course his sales are good... But he writes to the artist and maxes out the artist's potential. If he's working with Liefeld, he writes a Liefeld story. If he's working with Pacheco, he writes a Pacheco story. And the artists he works with -- already top selling -- sell better when he writes for them. Because he knows what people want out of those artists and he delivers on that.

Even if you hate Loeb's writing, I think you have to admit that it's largely about the artist where his stories are concerned. (And personally, I do consider that to be a strength.)

Who should be hired to get this once top selling title back on track?

It's not a matter of credentials. Verheiden has a similar career resume to Loeb. The artists on this book are still largely top notch.

The problem is that this became a CLASSIFIED or a CONFIDENTIAL-style book.

Rather than playing catchup or spotlighting guest stars, it needs to be setting the tone for Batman and Superman's friendship and working relationship in the DCU... And making waves that are allowed to rock the core titles a bit.

[drwho]

The problem with this book is all the pointless time travel stories. I think once brave and the bold hits the stand this book will be pointless. Especially since the stories have been subpar.

[eggie]

I have every issue of this series until Loeb's departure...since then I haven't really been grabbed by what's been going on. I got the first 2 issues of the current storyline and then dropped it from my pull list because I was no longer looking forward to getting this title every month. I think DC needs to reevaluate what made this title great in the first place and get it back on track fast. I'm surprised I didn't care for the story as I loved what Mark V. did on the Superman title with Ed Benes...maybe the next arc will be better...I'll check out an issue or two to see.

[trickster]

Look, he works with the top artists in the business so of course his sales are good... But he writes to the artist and maxes out the artist's potential. If he's working with Liefeld, he writes a Liefeld story. If he's working with Pacheco, he writes a Pacheco story. And the artists he works with -- already top selling -- sell better when he writes for them. Because he knows what people want out of those artists and he delivers on that.

What do you mean "he writes for the artist"? This sounds like one of those corporate double speak phrases. You can put the best artist on a book, if the story sucks it's not gonna sell. The Dark Knight Returns didn't sell so well and isn't so famous because of it's artwork. When I read it, I hated the artwork, but the story was good and especially the idea of a Batman who retired was what excited me. Jeph Loeb's stories were riveting, and had amazing twists, and yes they were helped by the fact that most of the time the artwork was good. Although I don't understand this drop. The new arc by Verheiden is really interesting and the artwork by Van Sciver (the artist who drew GL Rebirth) is really beautiful, not like that cartoony art by McGuiness during some issues of Loeb's Run.

[Black Atom]

I think it's accurate to say Loeb knows how to play to the strengths of whichever artist he's working with. His stories all have pretty much the same shallow formula, which usually involves some kind of mystery, a crapload of guest-stars, and an illogical twist/conclusion. It was fun for a while but just got old. There was very little actual substance.

[Hush Little Batman]

Hmm...I originally posted this in the DC forum because it's about Superman AND Batman. I'm not sure I see the logic of moving it to the Superman forum, but oh well.

[Jack Zodiac]

What do you mean "he writes for the artist"? This sounds like one of those corporate double speak phrases. You can put the best artist on a book, if the story sucks it's not gonna sell. The Dark Knight Returns didn't sell so well and isn't so famous because of it's artwork. When I read it, I hated the artwork, but the story was good and especially the idea of a Batman who retired was what excited me. Jeph Loeb's stories were riveting, and had amazing twists, and yes they were helped by the fact that most of the time the artwork was good. Although I don't understand this drop. The new arc by Verheiden is really interesting and the artwork by Van Sciver (the artist who drew GL Rebirth) is really beautiful, not like that cartoony art by McGuiness during some issues of Loeb's Run.

The corny art that's ridiculously popular with comic books fans who were eating up Loeb and his run on the book?

See what Patrick means? Ed's art fits a certain kind of story. Loeb knew that, knew how to tell that kind of story, and told it in a way that allowed McGuinness to make all of the crazy time-traveling action packed issues look amazing. Amazing enough to sell over a hundred thousand copies a month.

The current arc is fun, and I like it, but it definitely isn't selling like Jeph and Ed's did. I wouldn't say it's in trouble, because it's still beating Wonder Woman in sales, and that book's still wrigglin', and I wouldn't count on it going anywhere when Waid finally launches Brave and The Bold, but once this run is done, I'd expect to see Loeb take it back, or a new, popular creative team.

[brundlefly]

It seems the book has taken a hard hit creatively and sales-wise ever since Loeb left. It's true that delays have hurt it, but this is a title that was still pushing well over 100k a month as of issue #26 and the latest figues show it to be at 84k now. That's a big loss in a small amount of time. Should DC be concerned? Are they neglecting SM/BM because of the great sales being generated by 52? Has it been lost in the shuffle of OYL? Was Loeb really that important to its success? Who should be hired to get this once top selling title back on track?

That's a pity, as I think Verheiden/Van Sciver's work even just a few issues in is far and away better than Loeb's was. The one-two punch of 'Public Enemies' and 'Supergirl' made me drop S/B until Loeb left. I scanned it every so often at my LCS during the "Maximums" arc, noting that it was just more of the same and hadn't improved. I think you're right in that S/B might be lost in the shuffle of OYL and simultaneously suffering from the departure of Loeb's fan club. Hopefully it will get back on track, saleswise, since both the story and art are top-notch so far.

[trickster]

The corny art that's ridiculously popular with comic books fans who were eating up Loeb and his run on the book?

See what Patrick means? Ed's art fits a certain kind of story. Loeb knew that, knew how to tell that kind of story, and told it in a way that allowed McGuinness to make all of the crazy time-traveling action packed issues look amazing. Amazing enough to sell over a hundred thousand copies a month.

The current arc is fun, and I like it, but it definitely isn't selling like Jeph and Ed's did. I wouldn't say it's in trouble, because it's still beating Wonder Woman in sales, and that book's still wrigglin', and I wouldn't count on it going anywhere when Waid finally launches Brave and The Bold, but once this run is done, I'd expect to see Loeb take it back, or a new, popular creative team.

"A certain kind of story". You say that like you're talking about "crap" or something. I for one didn't like McGuiness art at all. I felt like he'd belong more on Justice League Unlimited. And it wasn't just Mc Guinness. They used Carlos Pacheco and Churchill, which are anything but cartoony.

[Hush Little Batman]

"A certain kind of story". You say that like you're talking about "crap" or something. I for one didn't like McGuiness art at all. I felt like he'd belong more on Justice League Unlimited.

I didn't care for McGuiness' art either but a lot of people did because it didn't hinder sales.

[kal_el21]

I actually have been enjoying the current arc. I think that the novelty of a new title that surrounded the first arc is no longer there and also the stories have not had any type of impact in the DCU like "Public Enemies" or the return of Supergirl. They are just simple, "popcorn" stories. Also, having a shipping schedule along the lines of WW or ASB doesn't help.

[Jack Zodiac]

"A certain kind of story". You say that like you're talking about "crap" or something.

Boy, I bet that sounds awesome when you excuse yourself from the table. "I've gotta' go... write a certain kind of story."

Ed's art works best with "cartoonier" stories. Like Bizarro and Batzarro chasing each other cross dimensions, or Batman and Superman fighting alternate versions of themselves controlled by Mxy and Bat-Mite. When Loeb wrote his run on Superman, it was wacky Silver Age stuff, and Ed's art fit it perfectly, same as it did on Superman/Batman. When Loeb did the arc with Saturn Queen and the other Legion villains controlling them through time, Pacheco's art definitely fit the story better than Ed's would have. And as unimpressed by Churchill as I am, when they did the Supergirl arc together, the art was perfect for the story.

So yeah, "a certain kind of story" warrants "a certain kind of art."

[Magneto_X]

Is Joe Kelly the current regular writer for S/B?

The S/B annual he wrote was incredible!

He was on his A-Game with McGuiness on it and I'd love for him to get another high profile assignment with this title.

To bad Pacheco is on Superman IIRC. They've worked together on X-men so it wouldn't take long for them both to get into their "rythem" (sp?) on S/B.

[Jack Zodiac]

No, right now Verheiden is writing.

I totally agree, though. Kelly's Annual was awesome. Especially the obvious Deadpool parody. I'd love to see Joe on the book in the future, with McGuinness, too, because they both nailed that book.