Power levels of Kryptonians in Pre-COIE Multiverse and Post-COIE DCU

[Buried Alien]

Anybody who's read DC Comics long enough knows that Kryptonians were much more powerful Pre-COIE when the Multiverse was still in effect than Post-COIE in the single DCU. What hasn't really been discussed is *why* this is so.

I believe the change has less to do with the Kryptonians themselves than it does with the very nature of the DCU compared to the old DC Multiverse. Quite simply: the DCU's physics can't support the outlandish feats of power that the Pre-COIE Kryptonians (and other beings) were capable of.

Consider this: before and during COIE, both Kal-L (the Superman of Earth-Two) and Superboy Prime had Pre-COIE levels of power. They could move planets with their bare hands and fly from Earth across intergalactic space on their own power within a matter of minutes. Upon their entry into the Post-COIE DCU in INFINITE CRISIS, however, only Superboy Prime exhibited such powers. Kal-L was only on par with the Post-COIE Superman of Earth-One (whose power level was far diminished from that of his Silver/Bronze Age counterpart).

This principle extends not only to Kryptonians, but to all superpowered beings in the Post-COIE DCU. Pre-COIE, the likes of Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, and the Martian Manhunter had powers on par with the Silver/Bronze Age Superman's, but Post-COIE, these characters' powers are on par with the diminished Post-COIE Superman's.

Moreover, when the Pre-COIE Silver/Bronze Age Kara Zor-El Supergirl visited the Post-COIE DCU in Peter David's MANY HAPPY RETURNS storyline, she was unable to move the Earth as she believed she could have done in her own universe.

All of this seems to indicate that the nature of the Post-COIE DCU is different from that of the Pre-COIE Multiverse, and it simply will not support the kind of extreme feats seen before COIE. Even Pre-COIE Kryptonians and similar superbeings will experience a diminishment of their power upon entering the DCU; their powers will adjust down to the rules of that universe.

Which makes Superboy-Prime's retention of his Pre-COIE power level in INFINITE CRISIS an anomaly.

Another anomaly: at the end of INFINITE CRISIS, how were the two Supermen able to fly from Earth to Krypton's orbit so quickly on their own power? The Post-COIE Superman has never had such an easy time flying through space. He could reach the moon without too much trouble, but he'd need a superliminal spacecraft or other transportation if he were to travel outside of Earth's solar system. Kryptonians can't fly between solar systems and galaxies on their own power in the Post-COIE DCU, especially not within the timeframe of minutes or hours.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[bfrank]

I've always considered the Kal - L and Kara Zor L to be less powerful than the Pre Crisis Versions of Superman and Supergirl....

I don't know if they could "toss planets" and move thru the time stream like their Earth One counterparts.....

Heck, they didn't even take Powergirl with them to fight the Anti Mnitor in COIE #7.....

I've saw the power levels of the post crisis superman to be around Kal -L's level, but I can not hide the fact that they have grown over the years......

I will be interested in how Power Girl is portrayed now, given that she knows who she is, and therefore, the universe should not be "playing havok on her abilities" any more.....

[Buried Alien]

I've always considered the Kal - L and Kara Zor L to be less powerful than the Pre Crisis Versions of Superman and Supergirl....

I can't comment on Power Girl versus the Pre-COIE Supergirl, but with Kal-L and Pre-COIE Kal-El, I think the difference was mainly that of age and related stamina issues. They were on the same scale, with Kal-L being somewhat weaker simply because he was older. It would be the difference between a healthy 70-year old man and a healthy 30-year old man (which is less than the difference between any Pre-COIE Kryptonian and any Post-COIE Kryptonian).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[bfrank]

I can't comment on Power Girl versus the Pre-COIE Supergirl, but with Kal-L and Pre-COIE Kal-El, I think the difference was mainly that of age and related stamina issues. They were on the same scale, with Kal-L being somewhat weaker simply because he was older. It would be the difference between a healthy 70-year old man and a healthy 30-year old man (which is less than the difference between any Pre-COIE Kryptonian and any Post-COIE Kryptonian).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I was thinking more so of his fairing against Captain Marvel and crew in All Star Squadron.....

There was also the fact that it took quite some time for kal-l's full powers to develop (Flying vs leaping and such) where as we have stories showing Kal-el as being superpowered as soon as he touched down...

Back to your orginal post re: Wonder Woman, I've always argued that the Pre Crisis Wonder Woman was more "powerful" than the post crisis version, in that she was supposed to be able to keep up with Superman and Supergirl, yet based on what appears in the books, the Post Crisis version wins hands down......

[glennsim]

Perhaps in the merged post-Crisis universe, there were enough "normal" worlds with physics that match our own that it effectively "watered down" the physics of the resulting Earth. When it was separate Earths, Earth 1 was free to have bizarre physics that would allow for more unreal things.

Superboy Prime is an anomaly, but perhaps it could have something to do with being one of very few super-powered beings from his universe. Perhaps nature intended his power level to remain the same relative to everyone else in whatever universe he was in, so when he entered a universe full of super-powered people, his powers exploded in scale.

The Superman-flight thing? A clear mistake, IMHO. We could come up with all sorts of made-up explanations - one of which being that it really DIDN'T happen that quickly, there's a long story of the week or so that took place between panels.

Or contact with the E2 Superman altered post-Crisis Superman's powers to closer to their pre-Crisis levels (just as contact with Lois drew out Power Girl's memories).

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I don't know. Post-Crisis, super-charged Superman can move planets around. And that was long before IC. Now, I'm almost sure that current Supeman is more powerful than before IC. How do I know this? Well, it's not that I'm sure, but like I said, almost sure. During the Up, Up And Away arc (almost at the end) spoilers:

Superman shot a Heat Vision blast to the Kryptonian warship that Luthor was controlling. That blast was stronger than what he thought it could be

end of spoilers.

It seems they're putting that "mental block" aspect back into the character.

[Rik Levins]

Buried, if I were to venture a guess, I'd say that it's kind of a combination of both.

Remember when post-COIE Superman visited the Pocket Dimension, and encountered a Superboy and Zod who were modelled on the Pre-Crisis Kryptonians? They were noticeably much stronger than Superman. Probably on a par with Superboy Prime, in fact.

I once asked Peter David, when he was doing a question-and-answer segment on his forum, whether the Kara Zor-El of Many Happy Returns failed to move the Earth because the laws of physics are different in the post-Crisis universe. Unfortunately, all I got was "this question has already been answered elsewhere."
However, since Linda Danvers-Supergirl in that story commented on how ridiculous it would be to assume one could move a planet, and how Kara seemingly lacked even a ninth-grade level of scientific knowledge, I'm gonna assume that the answer is yes. Post-COIE universe physics are at least a LITTLE more in keeping with reality.
As a side note, both Linda and Kon-El were impressed with Kara's power level.

So, here's my theory. The laws of physics ARE stricter post-Crisis, but most superbeings are also weaker. Kal-L's fight with modern Superman was more-or-less a tie, partly because his powers have faded from their original levels due to age (as we saw in that 1980's DC Presents, when Sivana stole Captain Marvel's powers and beat him up), and partly because modern Kal-El IS getting more powerful, and partly because Kal-L was still holding back, despite his anguished mental state.

Superboy Prime can push a planet, but it takes enormous effort in this universe (there are instances of Superboy moving multiple planets with ease in the Silver Age, and even moving planets with super-breath).

Kara could not move the Earth because she isn't quite as strong as SBP, just as a normal 110-lb 15-year-old girl would not be as strong as a muscular 16-year-old boy.

Both employ some kind of tactile-telekinesis which they unconsciously use to stabilize a planet when moving it. That's why Kara didn't simply tunnel into the ground, when we know she's more than powerful enough to do so.

[Buried Alien]

Another thing to consider is whether or not the formation of "New Earth" has rewritten the laws of physical limitations in the DCU again, explaining some of the feats performed by the two Supermen in INFINITE CRISIS.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[shanejayell]

Flying to Krypton: My theory always was that one of the GL's generated a space warp there.

[Green Lantern wannabe]

I have a different question - both Kryptonians, pre- and post-COIE, lost their powers when they were under a red sun.

So ... how could all three Supermen in Infinite Crisis fly THROUGH Krypton's red sun, no less, and not get fried? In fact, once they got near the red sun, how could they even fly? Or survive in space?

[marshal99]

I guess their cells still retain a bit of that yellow sun energy before it burn out totally under the red sun.

[Agentum]

But it's stupid anyway, here is nothing missing in the sun rays from a red sun that is in a yellow sun.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Another thing to consider is whether or not the formation of "New Earth" has rewritten the laws of physical limitations in the DCU again, explaining some of the feats performed by the two Supermen in INFINITE CRISIS.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

And given the Silver Age trend that DC seems to be having, I wouldn't be surprised that the physics of this New Universe (or New Earth, for that matter) are more like the Pre-CoIE physics.

[glennsim]

I have a different question - both Kryptonians, pre- and post-COIE, lost their powers when they were under a red sun.

So ... how could all three Supermen in Infinite Crisis fly THROUGH Krypton's red sun, no less, and not get fried? In fact, once they got near the red sun, how could they even fly? Or survive in space?

I believe it was insinuated that the loss of powers wasn't immediate, so they were able to get to Mogo before they totally lost power.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

That is what I thought. The loss was almost complete.