Different Points of View

[JeffreyWKramer]

For discussion:

Below are two statements. What do you think of these statements? Do you agree or disagree with the sentiments expressed? What would you infer about the mindset of someone who made each of these statements, or who views the world in that manner suggested by theses statements?


1. We deserve nothing. Each day we spend outside Hell is a great day.


2. Sometimes all we have is potential, but that's enough.

[Jack Zodiac]

1. We deserve nothing. Each day we spend outside Hell is a great day.

It sounds really bleak at first, as if whoever's saying it believes "we" aren't worthy of anything, but looking at the second sentence a little more, it sounds almost like what they mean is that we don't deserve anything more than not being in Hell, which is... bleak still, but not quite as bleak.

2. Sometimes all we have is potential, but that's enough.

Meanwhile, this seems to be hopeful, at first, as whoever's saying it believes "we" have potential, but when you finish the phrase and relate the end to the beginning, it seems as if they're saying that the only thing we have is potential, which is enough, whether or not we actually realize that potential. And that sounds kind of hopeless.

[Ed Cunard]

I think both of them spent way too much time reading Hallmark cards and are now trying their respective first attempts at being pithy.

[Valmore]

I think I hate Dashboard Confessional and other emo bands.

[Wesley Dodds]

1. We deserve nothing. Each day we spend outside Hell is a great day.

- "Life is Hell. And: fuck you."
- Thanks for not hurting me more, God.

2. Sometimes all we have is potential, but that's enough.

- "Yep, that sounds about right."
- Well, it may be a bromide but you never know.

[Haunt]

For discussion:

Below are two statements. What do you think of these statements? Do you agree or disagree with the sentiments expressed? What would you infer about the mindset of someone who made each of these statements, or who views the world in that manner suggested by theses statements?


1. We deserve nothing. Each day we spend outside Hell is a great day.

sounds very russian to me. i think this person is from a very cold climate.

2. Sometimes all we have is potential, but that's enough.

this person is female and the mother of a somewhat geeky high schooler.

[Solaris]

1. We deserve nothing. Each day we spend outside Hell is a great day.

Okay, you've found the Ultimate Pessimist.


2. Sometimes all we have is potential, but that's enough. [/QUOTE]

This one is a copout. Potential that just sits there = stagnation. We have to work to actualize our potential. A person could have the potential to find a cure for AIDS... but just having the potential doesn't do diddly-squat, and isn't worth a hill of beans. Someone who *actualizes* that potential... changes the world.

Going back to the first statement for a second, whoever said this has real self-worth problems, as well as a crappy view on Life.

I'd say that we "deserve" a helluva a lot---and most of us get a fair amount of it---but really, what we "get" comes down to what we work for.

So, for the very acidic test, if a single person made both those statements, I'd have to say that they're enjoying indulging in a fatalistic, pessimistic viewpoint on life, because they have no self worth---and the second statement is a sop to try to *give* themselves a *feeling* of self-worth... but by how it's worded, it betrays the person's idea that just existing is enough to make us worthwhile.

We aren't here to Exist... we are here to LIVE.

[Deus ex Chris]

1. We deserve nothing. Each day we spend outside Hell is a great day.

Um, Hellfire and Brimstone Christianity, is that you? Seriously, most of my dad's family is Pentecostal and for a brief time in my early teens I attempted to follow the tenets of the Southern Baptist. Anyway, this sounds like that, and I don't think too highly of it.

2. Sometimes all we have is potential, but that's enough.

This, however, I can get behind. It seems optimistic to me, but I do see how it could suggest stagnation. Maybe I'm putting a spin on it, but I see hope. Even when we have nothing or feel like we have nothing, there is something. It may not be actualized or even apparent, but it's something to work toward, a goal, and that's a start.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Some information about the source of each statement.

1). On the way to and from work, I drive by a church that has one of those signs out front on which they put pithy statements. The church in question is some of some fundy denomination or another, so Deus ex Chris and Wes are right on the money. Awhile back the message was the mind-numbingly stupid "THE BIBLE IS THE ONLY BOOK YOU WILL EVER NEED!" Aside from calling into question how someone would actually learn to read the Bible with that mentality, that one just made me wonder what sections of the Bible contain things like soup recipes, calorie information, home repair tips and tax code. This one I quoted is the current message.

When I saw that on the way home today, I cringed. I was wondering if it was just my bias against fundy dingbats, so I'm glad I'm not the only one who found that statement entirely pessimistic. Ugh. Yeah, I know it fits within the doctrine of some religious groups, but honestly, this seems like the sort of spiritual message you might get from Reverend Darksied of the Church of the Anti-Life. I think a person might be better off being a Scientologist or even a Hare Krishna than believing this sort of fatalistic, misanthropic, non-life-affirming tripe.


2) This one comes from a person who struggles nearly constantly with suicidal ideation - literally, this person thinks about killing herself several times a day - and who has made a few suicide attempts over the years but has resisted acting on the thoughts for a couple years now. Part of what keeps her going is the idea that people - including herself - have potential. It's a sort of hope that things can get better. Potential alone doesn't get one very far, of course, and as Jack Z and Solaris note, this person doesn't have much confidence she'll actually achieve any of her potential, but I still find it sort of amazing that a very disturbed, constantly suicidal person seems to have a less pessimistic view of life, and a more hopeful view of human potential, than does Pastor Whatever-the-Heck.

[Sean Walsh]

1. We deserve nothing. Each day we spend outside Hell is a great day.

Wow. And here I thought I was joyless....

[Wesley Dodds]

"THE BIBLE IS THE ONLY BOOK YOU WILL EVER NEED!"

Well, that's one thing I like about Christians -- they're basically just really serious book lovers. A Christian is a friend who's all "Have you read this book?? I'll lend you a copy!!"

Even if it's not the only book you'll ever need you can still get something out of reading it. We just need a religious Mortimer J. Adler to drum the message in: "People, the bible isn't supposed to be read like a Stephen King novel or a Tom Clancy. It's meant to be ransacked! What is this, a Madrasah? You've got to learn to parrot verse? Read for sense!"

Anyway, as for what the suicide ideation person said -- well, I've had black (but non-suicidal) times and I know how important that kind of thinking is. In fact, having that kind of manic, quixotic optimism is the condition of going on. You have to be able to say "there's no way I'm losing to this" if you want to be able to go on -- basically, bank on the future and the possibility of something different.

[Mike Smith]

For discussion:

Below are two statements. What do you think of these statements? Do you agree or disagree with the sentiments expressed? What would you infer about the mindset of someone who made each of these statements, or who views the world in that manner suggested by theses statements?


1. We deserve nothing. Each day we spend outside Hell is a great day.

I can see this statement coming from the mind of various individuals. Religiously, anyone who felt they fell out of favor, or covenant, with their deity may think in such a way. I could also see someone saying and believing such a thing as a means of disconnect from reality.

By lowering their feeling of self-worth or entitlement, perhaps it could help a person in the face of a battle (soldier in days leading up D-Day) or someone in a very dire situation (a long term prisoner or captive).

From all descriptions of hell, both religiously and metaphorically, technically most situations outside of such is great in comparison. Perhaps it shows an ability of the human mind to create the worst imaginable scenario to make reality seem more favorable in comparison.

For the first part of the statement, humans do deserve something; a basic right to enjoy life. Any living person should necessarily have a right to enjoy partaking in life and our environment in an unhindered manner, as long as it doesn't maliciously interrupt another's enjoyment of life or cause unreasonable offense to others.

I think this is true not due to some exclusive law or mandate, but simply because it is ultimately us, everyday people as a whole, who make the rules for our lives. As a person, I say give everyone a fair shot to enjoy things. Every person controls the base definition of what we deserve, we should make the base definition be something all people can generally enjoy and thus be entitled.

2. Sometimes all we have is potential, but that's enough.

There may be times where have to accept that there may be things we can never do and be alright with that possibility for reality. So moreso than anything, I believe, the true mark of human achievement is realizing and accepting our limits, not putting all of hope in our eventual desire or potential.

I think the "sometimes all we have is potential, but that's enough" sounds humanist in nature. While it is good to think of ourselves in positive light and dream great things for individual achievement, I think it's at least equally as realistic to think that we all have potential to do negative things in certain situations and accept that we may miss our desired goals for self.

From great minds and thinkers of our times, to "lowly" criminals, I think the potential to do what society deems as noble, primal, and unfavorable is a part of mostly every person. With that, our ability to realize our nature becomes crucial. We have a chance to truly learn ourselves, how we fit into norm societal expectations, be content with the knowledge of how we fit and plan to make changes to our natural and learned tendencies and behavior (or use it more if positive) if possible and desired. By realizing such things about ourselves, and others, we can more readily form effective social networks which I think is crucial, since we tend to be social creatures.

I think the best example of people accepting certain parts of human nature is found in our possible necessity of government. I believe it was Voltaire who stated, "If men didn't have passions, there would be no reason for government."

The concept of government (moreso democracy), in my opinion, was a great achievement for humanity. It represents an admission of society that perhaps organized laws and dictates, that necessarily protect us from our own passions (e.g., greed, revenge, exploitation), held up to standards by a society is far more effective than simply believing in the potential of each and every person to intrinsically do good. Even within government, we can see how individual passion (despite human potential to do things 'right') can corrupt the institution of laws and dictates, manipulating them to achieve desires such as greed, revenge, and exploitation.

Overall, I think it's not good to feel that our potential will ultimately be enough. Our greatest asset is ability to accept our potential flaws and plan ahead so society can progress and individually, we can truly understand 'self'. From there, human potential will grow but our ability to corrupt or get ahead of ourselves (overestimate our potential) will always remain an overall threat.

Individually, we can be prepared to accept our potential flaws (in eyes of societal thinking) along with what society deems to be strengths. I feel this is what leads to individual progress and ability to enjoy life, or at the very least to have a realistic perception of individual reality and limits.

[Paradox]

Ed Cunard has it:

I think both of them spent way too much time reading Hallmark cards and are now trying their respective first attempts at being pithy.

Yeah, that's where I'm at. And the only thing you can tell about a person from that is that they seem to like "bumper sticker" philosophy. Two cliched phrases taken out of context doesn't tell you squat about the person.

[Justin D.]

I still find it sort of amazing that a very disturbed, constantly suicidal person seems to have a less pessimistic view of life, and a more hopeful view of human potential, than does Pastor Whatever-the-Heck.

How do you know that Pastor Heck isn't a depressed, suicidal person too? I'm willing to bet that no matter how fundamentalist that church is, there's someone who wasn't pleased with the pessimistic statement. However, it can easily be interpreted so it's not nearly as fucked up sounding. (see how I manage to sound intelligent and vulgar at the same time? it's a gift.)

By "We deserve nothing," Pastor Heck is saying we shouldn't expect good things simply because we want them. When he says "Each day we spend outside Hell is a great day," he's saying that we are all sinners in some way and should be grateful for the sacrifice Jesus made for us.

At least, that's my translation. Even it's on the mark, it doesn't make his phrasing any less damning. Damning might not be what he should shoot for.

[Nikita]

For discussion:

Below are two statements. What do you think of these statements? Do you agree or disagree with the sentiments expressed? What would you infer about the mindset of someone who made each of these statements, or who views the world in that manner suggested by theses statements?


1. We deserve nothing. Each day we spend outside Hell is a great day.


2. Sometimes all we have is potential, but that's enough.

The first statement just sounds like someone who is depressed and having a sucky day. (sounds like something I'd say actually)

The second just sounds like someone just being realistic.

Neither sound very profound to me. They just sound more like observations. And the second one feels "true" to me.