25 Greatest Comics, CBR Edition: DISCUSSION

[Kid Omega]

PEANUTS, Charles Schulz
FROM HELL, Alan Moore and Eddie Campbell
FANTASTIC FOUR, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby
THE DUCK STORIES of Carl Barks
KRAZY KAT, George Herriman
THIMBLE THEATRE, E.C. Segar
LITTLE LULU, John Stanley and Irving Tripp
LIL' ABNER, Al Capp
TINTIN, Herge
LONE WOLF AND CUB, Kazuo Koike and Goseki Kojima
LITTLE NEMO IN SLUMBERLAND, Winsor McKay
WATCHMEN, Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons
ACME NOVELTY LIBRARY, Chris Ware
LOVE & ROCKETS, Los Bros Hernandez
SANDMAN, Neil Gaiman and Various
ZAP, Robert Crumb, Spain Rodriguez, et al
CALVIN AND HOBBES, Bill Watterson
MAUS, Art Spiegelman
TERRY AND THE PIRATES, Milton Caniff
THE SPIRIT, Will Eisner, Various
POGO, Walt Kelly
PLASTIC MAN, Jack Cole
AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, Steve Ditko and Stan Lee
PROMETHEA, Alan Moore and J.H. Williams III
EIGHTBALL, Daniel Clowes

[thehod]

I'd have included Asterix the Gaul and (naturally) Charley's War, but other than that, there is little on there to argue with.

[Kid Omega]

Okay, here's how this works.

We start with my list. If you disagree with a choice, or would like to see another comic on the top 25, you propose your choice, with a defense of the material, and eliminate one on the list with a critique.

The community then decides which stays and which goes, in an informal rolling poll, as we go.

Cronin and I can change the list as the thread progresses, and the list is entirely decided by community reaction to defense of submitted titles.

For example, if you think that HOUSE OF MYSTERY (the 1970's DC horror anthology) deserves to rank rather than ZAP, you would write a proposal explaining gwhy HOUSE OF MYSTERY is great, and then, write a critique explaining why ZAP is not-so-great. Then, as other people submit and eliminate other titles, they will agree or disagree with your proposal.

Easy enough, right?

When the community, by and large, decides that the top 25 is acceptable, we will start the ranking discussion. (But that's a ways away, as we say in the hills).

It will be slow, but organic. It will be informal, but majority opinion will prevail. And it should give us a nice list when we're done!

Some rules:
1. You must have read a title to eliminate it.
2. This is the GREATEST, not "favorite", or "most influential". Just as a standard...
3. Try to be as specific as possible in narrowing down your choices.
4. You must DEFEND your choices. The better an argument you make, and the more articulate and detailed you can be, the better the list will end up being!
5. An addition (or deletion) will be made when FIVE people vote for (or against) it. If something you approve of is deleted, or something you diasgree with i added, you are still free to argue for or against. But you will have to out-vote the intial FIVE. Easy enough!

(More rules may be added as we go along- it's all going to be very fluid and we'll learn as we roll...)

This discussion will be moderated by Cronin, Ed Cunard, and myself. Cronin or I can change the list when there is a seemingly communal decision.

So take it away, CBR Assembled!

NOVEMBER 2011 Chris Nowlin Rule Addistions:

I'll adjust and clarify the rules slightly.

1) The slate is wiped clean as of this post.
2) Nominations must include a denomination and substantiation to count
3) Once a substantiated nomination has been cast you can vote in that comics favor or against it. A total score of +5 will add it to the list.
4) Once a substantiated denomination has been cast, you can vote to approve of the removal or to support the comic. A total score of -5 removes the comic from the list.
5) Please balance your votes. Try to vote to remove as many comics as you vote to add. Supporting or denouncing an entire post (both its nomination and denomination) is preferable but not required.
6) I will keep score and post occasional updates
7) Review the thread to see what excellent nominations look like (Lone Ranger, Ray R, thehod, Jeffrey Kramer etc. have made outstanding contributions)
8) If swayed by eloquent arguments or further (re)reading, changing of votes is welcome.

[Kid Omega]

I'd have included Asterix the Gaul and (naturally) Charley's War, but other than that, there is little on there to argue with.

Those are both EXCELLENT choices!

See my post above, and get to it!

(I might remove MAD in favor of ASTERIX, but that's just me. Just to get things rolling... ;) )

[thehod]

Rightio.

This'll be difficult as most of those titles that I have read I think deserve to be there, but...

I would replace MAD with CHARLEY'S WAR

Prosecution against MAD
Whilst undoubtably being an American institution and a long lived and loved title I would suggest that it doesn't wholley fit under the description of comics. In addition, the quality has been very hit and miss over the years.

Defense for CHARLEY'S WAR
There are very few high quality war comics in history, but Charley's War stands out amongst them. Looking at the experiances of a 16 year old voluenteer, Pat Mills portrays the First World War as the futile and horrific conflict that it actually was in an era when war comics were filled with over the top, heroic boys-own, action material. Written by Pat Mills with just gorgeous artwork by Joe Colquhoun (see below) Charley's War has rightly been called the greatest British comic ever.




Hows that?

[Agent Helix]

I'd knock out DC: The New Frontier simply for being (while very good) another modernist slice of nostalgia, and replace it with The Spirit.

[Kid Omega]

Rightio.

This'll be difficult as most of those titles that I have read I think deserve to be there, but...

I would replace MAD with CHARLEY'S WAR

Prosecution against MAD
Whilst undoubtably being an American institution and a long lived and loved title I would suggest that it doesn't wholley fit under the description of comics. In addition, the quality has been very hit and miss over the years.

Defense for CHARLEY'S WAR
There are very few high quality war comics in history, but Charley's War stands out amongst them. Looking at the experiances of a 16 year old voluenteer, Pat Mills portrays the First World War as the futile and horrific conflict that it actually was in an era when war comics were filled with over the top, heroic boys-own, action material. Written by Pat Mills with just gorgeous artwork by Joe Colquhoun (see below) Charley's War has rightly been called the greatest British comic ever.




Hows that?

Great Defense! You've convinced me!

But the arguments against MAD are not swaying me- The Kurtzman MADs feature some of the most stellar talents of the fifties, and were a typ of humor that even today holds up as entirely chaotic and hilarious. They were beat-era anarchy as drawn by masters of the form.

Hmmm.... I suggested MAD, and then didn't want to lose it.... anything else you think should be off the list? Wanna stick with MAD?

Based on your defense, I'd like to find a spot for CHARLEY'S WAR...

I guess people should start voting!

[thehod]

Hmmm.... I suggested MAD, and then didn't want to lose it.... anything else you think should be off the list? Wanna stick with MAD?

How about the fact that MAD is more of a magazine with comic strips in it, rather than a comic per se.

Now if you want to go with Spy vs Spy as a specific strip like Calvin & Hobbs or Peanuts, then that's a different matter.

EDIT: Whilst as a collective, MAD is a great publication, the individual strips don't quite match up to the others on the list. Except Spy vs Spy, but I'm biased that way cos I love it. It really is a publication that is better than the sum of its parts.

[Kid Omega]

I'd knock out DC: The New Frontier simply for being (while very good) another modernist slice of nostalgia, and replace it with The Spirit.

I didn't rank the SPIRIT because I knew someone else would suggest it....

I'm uninclined to dismiss NEW FRONTIER based solely on the nostalgia factor. Having just re-read it, it not only holds up as a beautifully illustrated epic, but it actually benefits A LOT from re-reading. He's working on several levels with tha one...

But, CBR will decide!

(And of course, if the Spirit takes it's place, and people feel strongly it should be on the list, they can suggest NEW FRONTEIR over something else.... see how this works?)

[Kid Omega]

How about the fact that MAD is more of a magazine with comic strips in it, rather than a comic per se.

Now if you want to go with Spy vs Spy as a specific strip like Calvin & Hobbs or Peanuts, then that's a different matter.

We're going with a broad definition of comics. The Kurtzman MADs were an anthology almost entirely written by one guy, with a distinct editorial vision.

What does everyone else think?

[Agent Helix]

To me, New Frontier is really good, it's just not "Top 25 of all time" good.

[Kid Omega]

EDIT: Whilst as a collective, MAD is a great publication, the individual strips don't quite match up to the others on the list. Except Spy vs Spy, but I'm biased that way cos I love it. It really is a publication that is better than the sum of its parts.

oooh... good point. That should go in your argument against.

I should point out that SPY VS SPY didn't show up until the "magazine years", when Al Feldstein was editor.... just as a side note.

[Kid Omega]

To me, New Frontier is really good, it's just not "Top 25 of all time" good.

Absolutely reasonable! You have a very good case to make!

[thehod]

oooh... good point. That should go in your argument against.

I should point out that SPY VS SPY didn't show up until the "magazine years", when Al Feldstein was editor.... just as a side note.

Whilst I have read MAD, its not the institution over here that it is in the states, but the issues I have read have had Spy vs Spy in them and I loved them enough to track down an collection of strips a few years back. I wonder what happened to that, I've not seen it for ages.

I guess I'm kinda clutching at straws here, as I've not read the others, and those I have definatly belong in that list.

[Lone Ranger]

Deletion: A Contract With God

Reason:
Prepare for blasphemy. This book's reputation is based more on what it represents as the first Graphic Novel (more on that later), and its importance in bringing this type of mature storytelling using the comic book form to a more varied and literary audience. In a sense, it helped bring comics out of the ghetto. That being said, it is flawed - some of the characters are one-dimensional and Eisner could have dug a bit deeper with to provide some insight into their motivations. Eisner would do a much better job of this aspect of writing with later works like Fagin the Jew.

It is also famous for being the first graphic novel, but without even worrying about who was first - let's focus on the fact that it's really not a 'novel' but rather a short story collection. That's nitpicky - but its 'status' is part of the reason people would name it to a top 25 list.

Addition: The Spirit – by Will Eisner & Co.

Reason:
Not only is it groundbreaking from an artistic point of view (those title pages!), but the blend of noirish action, sexual innuendo and humour were unlike anything seen in comics at that time – and it would be decades before any comics came close to the Spirit. Denny Colt is the perfect everyman hero – he takes his bumps and bruises, he flirts with the women (although normally it’s vice versa) and he pokes fun at his boss.

This is a strip like no other – it is pure entertainment and it pushed the envelope of ‘comic book storytelling’. Eisner’s characters are often both realistic and caricatures at the same time. These stories are fun, exciting and compelling. The men are men and the dames are dames. It all works beautifully. There’s a reason these stories have been reprinted time and time again.

People will often complain about the non-Eisner years, and I’ll admit that the strip was at its best in the post-war era, but even those weaker stories were heads and shoulders above most of what was being published in the early 40s.