Avatar State Aang vs. The Hulk

[Pendaran]

Wasnt the House of M Pietro the powered up version that could travel through time?

No, that's Son of M, which came after, and it's not really a power up, it's a completely different, and in many ways inferior power set.

Yes it is up to par. If Hercules has several feats such as catching missles and also pimpslapping Pietro then Hercules has feats to prove that he at the very least has bullet time reflexes. I would agree with you there.

My point would actually be that all of those are crap too. Generally speak, Herc, the Thing, and the Hulk, are portrayed without superspeed or superspeed reaction time to any grandly notable degree. They don't even have the Silver Surfer's across the universe zipping to back up when he does something like search the planet earth in a sentence, grab for the infinity gauntlet, rescue Nova at above lightspeed, act in the span of a nanosecond, superspeed smash up an enemy fleet, dodge Deathurge at stated FTL, fight the Runner while the Runner is running through space... ok, the Surfer is a bad example, he actually has a bunch of speed feats, spread out throughout his entire career, to backup his whole zooming around in space thing. I'll think of someone. It would be the point that theirs are generally isolated instances that most of their career does not really bear out. Especially to claim something like "bullet time" for them.

[nj06]

First off, I should apologize, I meant to say that the fight takes place on the beach to make it fair for Aang.

Also, with Hulks sonic clap thing, if that sends air at Aang, would it be possible for Aang to bend the air so that it doesn't hurt him? Also, since sound travels on air, would that negate the harm that could be potentially done to Aang?

And lastly, could Aang manipulate the water in the Hulk? Like bend it out of him and perhaps, from the lack of hydration, dehydrate the Hulk until he passes out? I know that seems farfetched for and 10 year old, or a 110 year old, but in his Avatar State I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible. And since it is actual water, the Hulk's healing factor wouldn't be able to compensate for that would it?

Oh, and I think he can create storms and the like out of nowhere when in the Avatar State because if you look at the episode where Roku explains the Avatar State to Aang, it should some previous Avatars doing some instantaneous bending of the four elements.

[Pendaran]

Also, with Hulks sonic clap thing, if that sends air at Aang, would it be possible for Aang to bend the air so that it doesn't hurt him? Also, since sound travels on air, would that negate the harm that could be potentially done to Aang?

Not enough. Aang doesn't generate weather effects as powerful as those of Thor.

And lastly, could Aang manipulate the water in the Hulk? Like bend it out of him and perhaps, from the lack of hydration, dehydrate the Hulk until he passes out? I know that seems farfetched for and 10 year old, or a 110 year old, but in his Avatar State I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible. And since it is actual water, the Hulk's healing factor wouldn't be able to compensate for that would it?

He's never shown remotely that level of capacity, nor, I think, has anyone in that entire show.

Oh, and I think he can create storms and the like out of nowhere when in the Avatar State because if you look at the episode where Roku explains the Avatar State to Aang, it should some previous Avatars doing some instantaneous bending of the four elements.

There's no one saying that he couldn't do such things. They just won't have a lasting effect on the Hulk.

[Jammin]

No, that's Son of M, which came after, and it's not really a power up, it's a completely different, and in many ways inferior power set.

Oh ok.

My point would actually be that all of those are crap too. Generally speak, Herc, the Thing, and the Hulk, are portrayed without superspeed or superspeed reaction time to any grandly notable degree. They don't even have the Silver Surfer's across the universe zipping to back up when he does something like search the planet earth in a sentence, grab for the infinity gauntlet, rescue Nova at above lightspeed, act in the span of a nanosecond, superspeed smash up an enemy fleet, dodge Deathurge at stated FTL, fight the Runner while the Runner is running through space... ok, the Surfer is a bad example, he actually has a bunch of speed feats, spread out throughout his entire career, to backup his whole zooming around in space thing. I'll think of someone. It would be the point that theirs are generally isolated instances that most of their career does not really bear out. Especially to claim something like "bullet time" for them.

Herc and Hulk as mentioned arent really speed oriented so their appearances arent exactly riddled with speed feats in every issue but when they do demonstrate their speed, they demonstrate it at a fairly consistant level (PIS excluded). So while they wouldnt have a large number of speed feats like The Runner, Silver Surfer, Quicksilver or Flash they do have quite a few and what I would like to know is if their feats are enough for it not to be ruled SMvsFL.

[Pendaran]

Herc and Hulk as mentioned arent really speed oriented so their appearances arent exactly riddled with speed feats in every issue but when they do demonstrate their speed, they demonstrate it at a fairly consistant level (PIS excluded). So while they wouldnt have a large number of speed feats like The Runner, Silver Surfer, Quicksilver or Flash. What I would like to know is if their feats are enough for it not to be ruled SMvsFL.

Not demonstrated at a consistent or popping up enough level to where you have to start wondering why these guys have problems hitting guys like Spiderman or initial showings of Speedfreak, or hell, even Captain America. I'm almost certain that even Namor has more speedfeats than the Hulk, Thing or Hercules.

[Jammin]

Not demonstrated at a consistent or popping up enough level to where you have to start wondering why these guys have problems hitting guys like Spiderman or initial showings of Speedfreak, or hell, even Captain America. I'm almost certain that even Namor has more speedfeats than the Hulk, Thing or Hercules.

I believe that it is Spiderman's spidersense paired with good reflexes of his own that can allow him to stay two steps ahead of Hulk/Herc..Etc.

I'm not so familiar with Speedfreak but Captain America has never shown anything to indicate that he has spped or reflexes on a high enough level to dodge Hulk and Herc. If these guys are catching missles, bullets, artillery shells and tagging speedsters to boot then wouldnt Cap dancing around them be considered PIS on their part?

[Pendaran]

I believe that it is Spiderman's spidersense paired with good reflexes of his own that can allow him to stay two steps ahead of Hulk/Herc..Etc.

I'm not so familiar with Speedfreak but Captain America has never shown anything to indicate that he has spped or reflexes on a high enough level to dodge Hulk and Herc. If these guys are catching missles, bullets, artillery shells and tagging speedsters to boot then wouldnt Cap dancing around them be considered PIS on their part?

Considering they've only ever done these things once in a blue moon, and basically decades ago, I'm more inclined to say that it's that they are not possessed of freakishly developed reflexes beyond that of Spiderman, myself.

I mean, Shang Chi's fighting ability has gone to hell compared to decades ago, but at least he can still perform amazing feats and does so when not jobbing out to Wolverine.

How often in the last.. hell.. 15 years have we seen much speedwise from either of the three people mentioned?

Also, christ, I've been reading comics for over 15 years. I feel old.

[Jammin]

Considering they've only ever done these things once in a blue moon, and basically decades ago, I'm more inclined to say that it's that they are not possessed of freakishly developed reflexes beyond that of Spiderman, myself.

I mean, Shang Chi's fighting ability has gone to hell compared to decades ago, but at least he can still perform amazing feats and does so when not jobbing out to Wolverine.

I think the best course of action for me to take to clear up Hulk's speed issues is to collect all of his speed feats and any other info that could help in determining his speed and send it to a mod for a ruling on what his speed/reflexes are.

Nice debating with you and BTW no hard feelings about last time :)

[Pendaran]

I think the best course of action for me to take to clear up Hulk's speed issues is to collect all of his speed feats and any other info that could help in determining his speed and send it to a mod for a ruling on what his speed/reflexes are.

See above point about the last 15 years.

[Jammin]

How often in the last.. hell.. 15 years have we seen much speedwise from either of the three people mentioned?

I guess thats because for high end bricks like them. Things like catching bullets and missiles have gotten old and boring compared to the more cosmic threats. Of course this is no excuse because they could still find other ways to demonstrate speed, I suppose they just got lazy.

[Gordon Smith]

In my opinion, in the Quicksilver/Hulk incident, Banner being able to backhand the mutant may be reasonably attributed to the demands of the plot (in other words, PIS) rather than a creditable representation of Pietro's typical performance and seems also to demand a level of ability from the Hulk that he does not normally exhibit against other non-speedster opponents such as Spider-Man or Wolverine, both of whom routinely dodge his punches and slaps. Hence, I am ruling that The Hulk striking Quicksilver in this instance is covered by the ''Spiderman vs. Firelord exemption''.

[Jammin]

In my opinion, in the Quicksilver/Hulk incident, Banner being able to backhand the mutant may be reasonably attributed to the demands of the plot (in other words, PIS) rather than a creditable representation of Pietro's typical performance and seems also to demand a level of ability from the Hulk that he does not normally exhibit against other non-speedster opponents such as Spider-Man or Wolverine, both of whom routinely dodge his punches and slaps. Hence, I am ruling that The Hulk striking Quicksilver in this instance is covered by the ''Spiderman vs. Firelord exemption''.

I was going to say that Spiderman's spidersense and Wolverine's jobber aura would factor in there but its ok I will agree with the Hulk vs Quicksilver ruling.

Could I get a ruling on Hulk's reflex time though? He has a number of feats like catching bullets in his teeth, catching artillery shells fired from tanks, catching a shield aircraft zooming over his head and having several people comment on his speed. Saying themselves that Hulk is way faster than he looks. Once I find the scans I will post them, also Dalak might know a few more feats so I will PM him.

[nj06]

Could Aang creat a vortex strong enough to send Hulk flying into space? In that case he might not kill the Hulk, but he could defeat him.

Question: Can the Hulk survive in space? Does he need air?

If he does need air, Aang might be able to suck the air out of the Hulks lungs and maybe subdue him. It wouldn't be easy, but it might be able to happen.

[Dalak]

Could Aang creat a vortex strong enough to send Hulk flying into space? In that case he might not kill the Hulk, but he could defeat him.

Question: Can the Hulk survive in space? Does he need air?

If he does need air, Aang might be able to suck the air out of the Hulks lungs and maybe subdue him. It wouldn't be easy, but it might be able to happen.

Hulk no longer seems to have that weakness as of right before Planet Hulk started. Also Hulk doesn't need leverage to clap his hands.

It might get Aang a win or 2, but not the majority.

[Pendaran]

Aang hasn't shown such control or refinement over his powers to that extent that I've seen, regardless. The sucking air out of the lungs thing. The Hulk, even before Planet Hulk, at that, has something like the lung capacity of a whale, so, really, it's not a super viable tactic anyway.

Hey, don't get me wrong Avatar people, it's a really neat show, and fun and funny, dude's just completely outclassed here.