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  1. #61
    The Survivor Grouch Hulkamaniac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samurai

    And despite what Hulkamaniac said, Paul has a very strong case against Stuart for discontinuity with the DC universe. As far as we know, none of the things Lorraine ranted about occured in the DC universe, which has fictional cities, fictional presidents and govt officials, etc.
    I think Stuart's links of his explanations, as stated b4, do explain alot, even if you don't like it. plus I really don't think its smart to base somthing on "As far as we know", there are alot of things that are reflected in the DC universe from real life and I think it's unfair to tell someone to ignore all that motivates or inspires a storyline or dialogue of ones own work.
    I don't recall DC covering alot of history or culture, how do you explain the fashion or ideology or a myriad of things within the DCU. does it all have to be documented in the pages of a comic for it to be mentioned? theres alot to be answered based on your statements.

    plus I really like what one of my personal fav writers had to say:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Busiek


    I've got strong political opinions, but they're not what I'm moved to write about. That doesn't mean that I think those who are moved to write about them should silence themselves. It just means that I'm interested in writing about other things, for the most part.

    kdb

  2. #62
    The Survivor Grouch Hulkamaniac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaunyc56

    Ummmm, Isn't Firehawk a politician, I mean she's a Democratic politician, putting her own spin on true events. Why is it when a comic character, has a different opinion from someone, everybody assumes that is the creators point of view. Also, are you also saying that there should be no politician characters in comics?
    no, I think their objection is the particular type of politics being discussed, otherwise why is it such a big deal to see this type of writing within a comic book?

    for the record , i'm done with this topic, theres nothing to be gained here. In the end this is a discussion about a few people wanting to basically censor comics to reflect what they are comfortable with. its actually kind of silly, this is acomic forum not a politics forum as I recall and I'm gonna stick to the comics. atleast i'm gonna try :)
    Last edited by Hulkamaniac; 10-18-2006 at 06:48 AM.

  3. #63
    Essayist and Gadfly Bradley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkamaniac
    no, I think their objection is the particular type of politics being discussed, otherwise why is it such a big deal to see this type of writing within a comic book?

    for the record , i'm done with this topic, theres nothing to be gained here. In the end this is a discussion about a few people wanting to basically censor comics to reflect what they are comfortable with. its actually kind of silly, this is acomic forum not a politics forum as I recall and I'm gonna stick to the comics. atleast i'm gonna try :)

    Well, Orwell would say that's a political decision too...

    In all seriousness, I wanted to point out that I think PaulTiberius, the guy who started this thread, has been remarkably cool as he's disagreed with some of us. He's got his opinion, and I've got mine, but it's nice to be a part of such a respectful exchange of ideas.

  4. #64
    The Survivor Grouch Hulkamaniac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradley

    In all seriousness, I wanted to point out that I think PaulTiberius, the guy who started this thread, has been remarkably cool as he's disagreed with some of us. He's got his opinion, and I've got mine, but it's nice to be a part of such a respectful exchange of ideas.

    I agree, this has been a very nice discourse, thanks PAul, you actually got me back into a comic that I had been passing up for a few months.

  5. #65
    Månriddare Agentum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllisterH
    The sheer number of supers in the DCU really prevents something like that. Rucka basically acknowledged as such.
    Ok, well i agree, it would be really hard to do the way it was done irl.

    But there could have been magical components involved or whatever, well i think it's best this way.

  6. #66
    gaze upon the face of war PastePotPete's Avatar
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    Default Oh Puh-Leez! The speech was liberal! And what's wrong with that?

    Riley is a hero in the book. There is a definite implication that her actions, including speeches that she gives, are heroic. Arguing that 'this is just the character's opinion' doesn't really completely hold water as an argument against someone who was offended by Riley's dialogue in that issue of Firestorm. Mr. Moore was definitely trying to get his views out there.

    Good for him.

    Who says comics can't be a forum for the writer's political views? Comics should be a forum for a writer's political, moral, sexual, spiritual, you-name-it views on anything. Some writers do it with more subtlety. Moore put it out there. Whatever works in the story. And that's the key, isn't it? Because sometimes these political messages DON'T work and put off readers.

    Our argument should not be about whether the message was appropriate. This country has free speech. OF COURSE it was appropriate. Our argument should be about whether it was appropriate for the story.

    She's a democratic senator. It fits her character. I think it was appropriate to the story.

    Does it bother you that you like the comic but disagree with the writer's politics?
    "People don't want questions. They want answers." -- Plato to Socrates, right before he drank the poison

  7. #67
    Soldier of the Apocalypse PaulTiberius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaunyc56
    Here's a quote:

    I don't think this is what I pay for in a comic. At least make the political elements relevant to the story, and true to the history of the imaginary world.

    Stuart Moore might as well have just replaced this scene with a blank page that said:

    “We interrupt regularly scheduled programming for the following announcement: Stuart Moore wishes to express his fondest hope that you will elect Democrats four weeks from now. We now return to Firestorm The Nuclear Man, already in progress.”

    Ummmm, Isn't Firehawk a politician, I mean she's a Democratic politician, putting her own spin on true events. Why is it when a comic character, has a different opinion from someone, everybody assumes that is the creators point of view. Also, are you also saying that there should be no politician characters in comics?
    As it turns out, I'm not assuming. This is the creator's point of view.

    And no, I'm not saying that there should be no politician characters in comics, and I'm not sure how you leapt to that conclusion. I explicitly say differently both in my original post in this thread, of which you quoted part, and on my blog, where (insofar as anyone is all that concerned about what I personally think) I've detailed my thoughts much more fully.

  8. #68
    Soldier of the Apocalypse PaulTiberius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkamaniac
    no, I think their objection is the particular type of politics being discussed, otherwise why is it such a big deal to see this type of writing within a comic book?
    I hope I haven't come across as being ONLY upset that Democratic talking points made it into a comic me, a Republican, is reading. I buy 100 comic books a month. There's a lot of agenda-writing out there, and I haven't started threads to complain about the illegitimacy of a specific issue like this until now. Of course I'm motivated by my bias (a point I've admitted already), but I also believe I've tried to dig deeper and explore the general issues that make politicized material of any variety either illuminating or obtrusive.

    for the record , i'm done with this topic, theres nothing to be gained here. In the end this is a discussion about a few people wanting to basically censor comics to reflect what they are comfortable with. its actually kind of silly, this is acomic forum not a politics forum as I recall and I'm gonna stick to the comics. atleast i'm gonna try :)
    You've jumped the shark. As far as I can tell, you're the first person to use the word "censor" on this thread. You won't find a whiff of censorship in anything posted from me, anyway.

    Glad to have you in the discussion, Hulkster. :)

  9. #69
    Soldier of the Apocalypse PaulTiberius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradley
    Well, Orwell would say that's a political decision too...

    In all seriousness, I wanted to point out that I think PaulTiberius, the guy who started this thread, has been remarkably cool as he's disagreed with some of us. He's got his opinion, and I've got mine, but it's nice to be a part of such a respectful exchange of ideas.
    Thanks, Bradley. I so hate the flamers that take real discussion and turn it into something ugly. If we hadn't been so civil here, we might not have garnered the input of the comic's author himself, which was really quite interesting to read.

    Don't know about anyone else, but I always enter these discussions hoping to learn something about the other side and understand a perspective different from my own.

  10. #70
    Soldier of the Apocalypse PaulTiberius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkamaniac
    I agree, this has been a very nice discourse, thanks PAul, you actually got me back into a comic that I had been passing up for a few months.
    Cool! Maybe Stuart Moore will send me a comp of the next issue in gratitude?
    :D

  11. #71
    New Member Captain Shady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter M.
    In fact those responsible for the disaster in NOLA were all Democrats, it's just that they and their allies in the MSM would rather have us concentrate on Mark Foley than Harry Reid's land deals and the incompetence of Nagin and Blanco.
    I'm from NOLA and that's about as wrong as it gets. Actually anybody that points to one side or the other as responsible is wrong. Dems and Republicans all dropped the ball. Both parties are responsible just as every level of government is responsible. Federal government, state government and city government failed in almost every aspect. Executive and legislative. Most important in this failure is that for decades even our corrupt louisiana politicians have begged the federal government for better levy protection, wetland protection, and warned of the impeding doom when the big one hit. Nothing happened, funding a lot less then what Katrina ended up costing us, was always denied. Dems and Republicans are still opting not to vote for policys in favor of the state.

    It amazes me how people (not refering to you Peter) who know half the facts feel compelled to point out who is responsible. It's only a matter of time where a different part of the country gets hit by a natural disaster and it will turn out for years they've been begging for funding that ends up going to a bridge to nowhere in Alaska. It isn't exlusively Bush's fault, it isn't exlusively Blanco's fault, or Nagin's fault but they are all culpable.

    One group people are especially quick to criticize are the people of Louisiana and that's about as limited and information bereft viewpoint as there is. This is a case of all government and all parties failing their constituents.

  12. #72
    RADI☼ACTIVE nuclearman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradley
    Well, Orwell would say that's a political decision too...

    In all seriousness, I wanted to point out that I think PaulTiberius, the guy who started this thread, has been remarkably cool as he's disagreed with some of us. He's got his opinion, and I've got mine, but it's nice to be a part of such a respectful exchange of ideas.
    Well said... I have been watching this debate with great interest.. and both parties have been respectful of the others ideals.

    To see a firestorm thread go over five pages is a bit of a thrill.. I really love the book and often put up a thread to get other peoples views...only to see a couple of replies and then it fades off into the ether.

    Hopefully this increases sales !!

    Going off to pick up my copy tonight... and I am looking forward to it.:D

  13. #73
    Soldier of the Apocalypse PaulTiberius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuclearman
    Well said... I have been watching this debate with great interest.. and both parties have been respectful of the others ideals.

    To see a firestorm thread go over five pages is a bit of a thrill.. I really love the book and often put up a thread to get other peoples views...only to see a couple of replies and then it fades off into the ether.

    Hopefully this increases sales !!

    Going off to pick up my copy tonight... and I am looking forward to it.:D
    I hope you enjoy it!

    That's a great line-up of favorite books you have there ... but how in the holy freaking heck does OMAC show up with all those others?????

  14. #74
    RADI☼ACTIVE nuclearman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulTiberius
    I hope you enjoy it!

    That's a great line-up of favorite books you have there ... but how in the holy freaking heck does OMAC show up with all those others?????
    I've been enjoying it.... The Firestorm and Cyborg appearance is helping it though.. I really like the artwork.

  15. #75
    Soldier of the Apocalypse PaulTiberius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuclearman
    I've been enjoying it.... The Firestorm and Cyborg appearance is helping it though.. I really like the artwork.
    I liked #1 quite a lot, but #3-4 really dropped the ball, so I'm out. It's interesting, at least to me, to see how my opinion changed between the two, given the two ... reviews I wrote.

    I had high hopes, but the book is out of my list now.

    Glad someone's enjoying it, though. It was actually Firestorm's cameo that was the deciding factor in picking up #1 to begin with. :)

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