Kingdom Come: Did Marvel REALLY beat Supes?

[Kid Quick Foots]

ok, i thought that Cap handed the big boy scout his booty at the end of Kingdom Come, but ive heard another argument that Cap really didnt do anything to Supes but slow him down, mearly get in his way so that the big bomb could drop, and that when Supes puts his hand over Caps mouth before he says "SHAZAM!!!" for the last time that he could have crushed his skull but he wanted Cap to make the decision on his own to save the planet and to fight Luthors conditioning, is this true? or did Cap really take it to Supes?...... AND(one more thing:) ) Capt. Marvel isnt invunerable?? what? since when?

[Ontir]

Cap's powers are derived from magic, and so he is, and always has been, more powerful than Superman.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I usually just consider it a stalemate.

[Rik Levins]

Well, Cap didn't win, but he was certainly hurting Supes.

What Marvel did was to say his magic word, and then zip out of the path of the magical lightning bolt at super-speed, leaving it to hit Superman instead. And since it was magical lightning, it could hurt Supes a lot more than regular electricity (which wouldn't even tickle him).

The first bolt staggered Supes, but he was still on his feet. Cap then repeated the tactic several times, at which point Superman was barely able to stand and was bleeding from his nose and ears.

But then he tried it once too often, allowing Superman to reverse the tactic and avoid the bolt...I forget whether he pushed Cap into its path or what exactly, but anyway Marvel ended up getting hit, which of course changed him back into Bill Batson, his human alter-ego. Before he could say "Shazam" again and change back, Superman grabbed his face and held his mouth shut. Since Batson has no super-powers, yes, Superman could effortlessly have crushed his head at that point. But he chose to talk to him instead, and persuaded Cap to do the right thing after Superman let him go.

I might point out that, in my opinion, if Marvel had not tried the lightning trick one time too many, and had instead just switched to using his fists at that point, he probably could have beaten the snot out of the badly-injured Superman.

[Kid Quick Foots]

yeah, i just took a glance at the TPB and as Cap is saying shazam for the last time, supes uses his speed and grabs Cap by the mouth as soon as he says it, so the bolt actually hits Supes and Cap at the same time, turning Cap back into Billy, i thought Supes had his hand on is mouth BEFORE he turned back into Billy. so yeah, he could crush his face easily at that point.

[CaptainAwesome]

I think Cap could have easily won the actual fight, but Supes had won, at least philosophically, before the fight had even begun.

[Michael P]

Cap beat that farmboy like he stole somethin'.

[Lord of Denial]

Cap beat that farmboy like he stole somethin'.

The end result of a fight is all that matters. And the end result of this one is Superman could have crushed Billy's skull but he chose not too. So I call that a stalemate by Clarks choice.

[davids]

The next best tiff in that story was wonderwoman trying to shove her sword in Batman's chest!:evilsmile

PS anyone ever tried listening to the audio drama while following along with the graphic novel.....cool!

[shyguy]

It was basically a draw (Luthor didn't expect Captain Marvel to beat Superman, he just needed him to keep Supes busy while the bomb did its work), but Captain Marvel gets the moral victory since his death and Norman McCay's influence are what make Superman finally see what the right course of action is in regard to the metahuman problems.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I don´t agree that CA got the moral victory since it was Superman who had to show him he was in the wrong side.

When your oponent defeats you and instead of killing you, chooses to spare yuor life and make you realise that you are wrong and you yourself decide that you want to sacrify yourself to make up for what you did, that isn´t a "moral victory".

That usually registers under "- Sorry for screwing up. Here, let me die in your place instead to make up for my mess".

[Lord of Denial]

I don´t agree that CA got the moral victory since it was Superman who had to show him he was in the wrong side.

When your oponent defeats you and instead of killing you, chooses to spare yuor life and make you realise that you are wrong and you yourself decide that you want to sacrify yourself to make up for what you did, that isn´t a "moral victory".

That usually registers under "- Sorry for screwing up. Here, let me die in your place instead to make up for my mess".

But Superman was also wrong in thinking that he had to decide between superhuman life and human life. And Cap in the end made him see that the only thing that matters was life period be it superhuman or human. And that there is no difference between the two.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

That was not an issue when the fight started.
Superman was in it to stop the bomb and the death of al those people, CM was there to stop him.

In the end, not only did SM make Billy understand the big picture, CM himself chose to side with him by sacrifying himself to help Superman.

That´s not a moral victory.
That´s a "You were right, I was wrong. To make up for my mistake I will sacrify my life so that your plan is enforced."

[mattx110]

i think captian marvel was screwed up in the head enough to want to blow himself up. but i also think if he wasn't a mental mess he would have sacrificed himself to save the others anyway. as it stands, superman won the fight by being smart, while billy was obviously under a lot of stress and probably couldn't think very straight. wether or not he would have realized how vulnerable the lightning trick made him is up to conjecture. but a sane batson wouldn't have fought supes anyway, so that would just be a rumble forum problem to deal with. we don't have to think about who could have won, but that in the end supes stopped billy, and marvel saved lives.

[The Joker]

Cap would beat Supes.

Just ask Alex Ross. I'm sure he would say the same thing. :)