Based on the Avengers "concept" what type of characters could be Avengers?

[The Shadow]

Wolverine, Spider-Man, Luke Cage & Ronin just do not fit in the Avengers concept.

Explain to me the "Avengers Concept" and how Bendis doesn't get it.

[DDM]

Explain to me the "Avengers Concept" and how Bendis doesn't get it.

The Avengers has a charter. This charter has strict guidelines who can become an Avenger. Bendis has effectively done away with the charter & the Maria Stark Foundation (a separate income source created specifically for the Avengers). Bendis ignored the fact the Maria Stark Foundation is a separate entity & the Avengers has gone through several rosters throughout its history to make Avengers Disassembled. As a result, Bendis is writing the Champions of New York City.

[Red Lotus]

The Avengers has a charter. This charter has strict guidelines who can become an Avenger. Bendis has effectively done away with the charter & the Maria Stark Foundation (a separate income source created specifically for the Avengers). Bendis ignored the fact the Maria Stark Foundation is a separate entity & the Avengers has gone through several rosters throughout its history to make Avengers Disassembled. As a result, Bendis is writing the Champions of New York City.

What strick guidelines? Is this something new. I always thought that the only guidelines was to have another Avenger vouch for you then after that the team takes a vote.

[DDM]

What strick guidelines? Is this something new. I always thought that the only guidelines was to have another Avenger vouch for you then after that the team takes a vote.

The Avengers must go through strict guidelines to join because they have access to many US government classified data as part of their job. A government liason is assigned to the Avengers. Many times the government liason will tell the Avengers woh can & cannot be on the team. For instance, Henry Peter Gyrich did such a deed when he was the Avengers government liason when the Avengers swelled to 14 team members (including the Guardians of the Galaxy from an alternate future). Hawkeye was mad because he was not chosen since Falcon took his place for Affirmative Action reasons. Ms. Marvel I (Carol Danvers) officially joined the team in this time.

When one becomes an Avenger, the government does an extensive background information to prove you are legitimate. Ms. Marvel believed her secret identity as Carol Danvers would be compromised when she refused to give her fingerprints, but the government used Ms. Marvel's retina instead to keep her Carol Danvers alter ego a secret from the US government & the other Avengers.

[The Shadow]

The Avengers has a charter. This charter has strict guidelines who can become an Avenger.

So... they can't be the Avengers without a charter? What were they BEFORE the charter???

They HAVE to be funded by the Maria Stark Foundation? No other options for funding can exist?

If the FF get funding from the Maria Stark foundation would they be Avengers?

You seem to be picking two arbitrary things to make it fit YOUR views... but those two things are not prerequisites for Avengers status.

[The Shadow]

The Avengers must go through strict guidelines to join because they have access to many US government classified data as part of their job. A government liason is assigned to the Avengers. Many times the government liason will tell the Avengers woh can & cannot be on the team. For instance, Henry Peter Gyrich did such a deed when he was the Avengers government liason when the Avengers swelled to 14 team members (including the Guardians of the Galaxy from an alternate future). Hawkeye was mad because he was not chosen since Falcon took his place for Affirmative Action reasons. Ms. Marvel I (Carol Danvers) officially joined the team in this time.

Are you talking about Avengers #181 from 25 YEARS ago?
In the 25 years I think they have moved on.

This is why I don't think continuity should be the be all, end all for storytelling because a story written when Bendis was in short pants shouldn't restrict him (or ANY writer) unless they want to revisit that element. Bendis has chosen to take his Avengers in a different direction. NOW the status quo has changed and, like when they originally formed, there is no charter. Another writer in 25 years time might undo that... but in the meantime, just because YOU don't like it doesn't make them any less Avengers than any other roster in the past.

And if they are so rigorous an strict how did mutant terrorists join? Or criminals like Wonder Man or Swordsman? Or former spies like Black Widow? Their inclusion seems arbitrary at best and not likely in the most stringent of circumstances.

When one becomes an Avenger, the government does an extensive background information to prove you are legitimate. Ms. Marvel believed her secret identity as Carol Danvers would be compromised when she refused to give her fingerprints, but the government used Ms. Marvel's retina instead to keep her Carol Danvers alter ego a secret from the US government & the other Avengers.

How much of a governmental background check could they have done on Mantis, Starfox, Thor, Hercules or any of the other aliens, gods or non-American citizens that have been members?

That's a weak excuse.

Besides I am tired of writers using aspects of goverment corruption

So... wouldn't the lack of governmental involvement be a good thing for you?


I don't actually expect you to answer any of the points (your selective responses and all) but I really hope you do as I'd like to see you counter my arguments... especially on the aliens, spies and criminals aspect.

The floor is yours.

[DDM]

Are you talking about Avengers #181 from 25 YEARS ago?
In the 25 years I think they have moved on.

I gave one example. The New Avengers is a completely new animal who are not Avengers.

This is why I don't think continuity should be the be all, end all for storytelling because a story written when Bendis was in short pants shouldn't restrict him (or ANY writer) unless they want to revisit that element. Bendis has chosen to take his Avengers in a different direction. NOW the status quo has changed and, like when they originally formed, there is no charter. Another writer in 25 years time might undo that... but in the meantime, just because YOU don't like it doesn't make them any less Avengers than any other roster in the past.

Having Wolverine on the team to be its killer is not a good reason to be an Avenger. In fact, being a killer is a primary reason why Wolverine should never be a candidate for an Avenger.

And if they are so rigorous an strict how did mutant terrorists join? Or criminals like Wonder Man or Swordsman? Or former spies like Black Widow? Their inclusion seems arbitrary at best and not likely in the most stringent of circumstances.

Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Black Widow, Swordsman I, & Mantis were once criminals but never killers or murderers.

How much of a governmental background check could they have done on Mantis, Starfox, Thor, Hercules or any of the other aliens, gods or non-American citizens that have been members?

Starfox got his creditionals from Titan. Thor is a god. Hercules is a demi-god. I am sure their respective fathers came in to help verify them. Mantis is a human. The Marvel Universe is not bound by the "real world."

So... wouldn't the lack of governmental involvement be a good thing for you?

A lack of government authority in the Avengers makes the team Champions of New York City. The government is a fundamental aspect of the Avengers as a core identity. The Avengers has a direct line to the President of the United States.

[Shellhead]

Theoretically, anybody can be an Avenger if a majority of active roster members vote them in. There was a time when there was considerable oversight by the U.S. Government, as represented by first Henry Peter Gyrich and then Duane Freeman. I assume that the current team was not subject to such restrictions, although the SHRA restrictions on all heroes are even more invasive.

In practice, there have been a number of regrettable additions to the Avengers. Nearly every Avengers fan has a personal list of Avengers that shouldn't have been allowed on the team, though of course the list varies from fan to fan. Personally, I find that most additions to the team during the first 200 issues were good, and most of the additions to the team after that point were bad, but of course that's just me.

There have been too many Avengers, and if the overall trend continues, eventually most Marvel heroes will have spent time on the roster. That will have the unfortunate effect of rendering the name "Avenger" cheap and meaningless. I can only hope that subsequent Avengers writers will be more careful about adding Avengers.

NOTE: EDITED BY MODERATOR BECAUSE WE ALREADY HAVE A THREAD ON WHO SHOULD NOT BE NEW AVENGERS.

[The Shadow]

I gave one example. The New Avengers is a completely new animal who are not Avengers.

According to... YOU.

According to Marvel they are. Please give more example!!!

Having Wolverine on the team to be its killer is not a good reason to be an Avenger. In fact, being a killer is a primary reason why Wolverine should never be a candidate for an Avenger.

But other Avengers have killed.
I just looking at the FBI website you cannot join if you are convicted of commiting a felony. Has he ever been CONVICTED IN A COURT OF LAW?

Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Black Widow, Swordsman I, & Mantis were once criminals but never killers or murderers.

Didn't Simon kill his brother for control of their company?

And cummon!

You said:
"The Avengers must go through strict guidelines to join because they have access to many US government classified data as part of their job."
And then you said:
"When one becomes an Avenger, the government does an extensive background information to prove you are legitimate."
Even if they never killed do you think for ONE MINUTE they would get hired at any government job let alone one where (according to you) they would have "access to many US government classified data"? Their inclusion by you is based on poor rationale.
Hank Pym has killed and abused his wife. I've been reading comics for 25 years and other than in self defence I don't recall Wolverine ever hitting a woman.

How did Black Widow not get booted from the US anyway???
She's a former SPY for the USSR. There's NO WAY she'd have gotten clearance based on just that.

Wanda may not have directly killed... but her removing the mutant powers of all but 198 mutants could be the basis of a manslaughter charge.

What about the Avengers that killed the Supreme Intellegence?

Your criteria is not working.... at all.

Starfox got his creditionals from Titan.

... what? Do you think something NOT verifiable would be accepted??? Did they send a letter via Titan Post to US Post? Or did they FedEx it? :rolleyes:

Thor is a god.

To whom? Not the Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, Jewish (and any other religion I'm forgetting) Americans he's not. How do you prove he's a deity? Do they just take his word for it? Hell, the Scandanavian countries don't believe in the Norse gods anymore... that's why you study them in MYTHOLOGY class and not religion class.

Hercules is a demi-god.

Same as above.

I am sure their respective fathers came in to help verify them.

"Dear Odin, We are writing this to verify Thor is really a Norse god. Ummmm... is he? Thanks, the US Government"

How would they have gotten proof? In contact with their fathers? Wouldn't the kings of gods have better things to do than show up in a US court and vouch for their sons?

The Marvel Universe is not bound by the "real world."

And here you shoot yourself in the foot.

Because that's EXACTLY why Wolverine can join.

A lack of government authority in the Avengers makes the team Champions of New York City. The government is a fundamental aspect of the Avengers as a core identity. The Avengers has a direct line to the President of the United States.

What about when they weren't associated with the Government? Haven't there been times throughout their history (pre New avengers I mean) when they broke off that affiliation?

Perhaps you know when the government was tied into the Avengers. Was it 181? If so what about the entire 180 issues before that?????? Were they just the Champions with a false title???

I think Reed Richards could give the President a call easily enough... should they be called the Fantastic Avengers?

I'm sorry but you have not given a satisfactory explanation to... well, anything. You pick arbitrary elements to help your argument but there is clear precedent to every single counter point I'm bringing up. Your conclusions are based on your preferences and biases.

Do they have merit? Yes. Should they be definitive? No, because as I said there is precedent for people like Wolverine joining, no charter and no government affiliation. If the Avengers was government affiliated, had no killers, thieves, criminals, spies or unverifiable aliens/gods and a charter from issue 1 of Volume 1 until the start of New Avengers (45+ years of constant history) you would be making PERFECT points. But that's not the case and your arbitrary choices of what makes the Avengers a "team" are apparently not shared by the many more fans buying New Avengers than were buying the last volume of the classic team.



Again, the floor is yours.

[mattbib]

Note (as I've deleted two posts so far): This thread is NOT for discussing which individuals can or cannot become Avengers; but the entire concept of who can or cannot be Avengers.

[Joe Rice]

The idea of "who can be a ______" is a malleable one over time, and well should be.

I wouldn't want the "who can be a voter" criteria to remain unchanged from its beginning.

[Alan2099]

Even before Bendis ditched it, the Government inviolvement with the team had been downplayed for years until it had basically reached the point where the Avengers just occasionally sent reports back to the Government and the Government occasionally asked the Avengers to do stuff for them. The connection was just about dead, that's why it was a bit of a problem with the Avengers having to get used to Duane Freeman when he came aboard.

Also, I seem to recal the Avengers having a rule against too many characters with similar names being on the team at the same time. This was basically to prevent lines up that looked like (fior example) Antman, Wasp, mantis, Yellow jacket and Spider-woman. People would see a themed Avengers team and possibly get the wrong idea.

[shaunyc56]

I know all the continuity phsycos are gonna hate this, but, all I care about is seeing a bunch of different kinds of personalitys thrust together because of a common situation, kind of like the original forming. And while I liked alot of the lineups, I really love the current one the most. These are characters I thought haven't gotten enough attention lately and my faves who get lots of attention. I also don't begrudge a company for trying to maximize it's chances of staying in business.

[Red Lotus]

I gave one example. The New Avengers is a completely new animal who are not Avengers.

This might be the one thing I have to kind of agree with you about. I say this because Bendis and marvel did get rid of the charter

Tom Brevoort

That’s also the original Avengers charter the original Avengers don’t exist anymore and the new Avengers are not bound by that charter.

But at the same time how long after the original team conceptions did they draft a charter. Yes the Avengers have worked with the Government, but the team wasn't Government formed. The only thing this means is that the New Avengers might not be official recognition by the Government.

[The Shadow]

This might be the one thing I have to kind of agree with you about. I say this because Bendis and marvel did get rid of the charter

/snip/
but the team wasn't Government formed. The only thing this means is that the New Avengers might not be official recognition by the Government.

The team wasn't formed with a charter either.

If they don't have to be government recognized why can't they be charter-less?