How do you divvy up the Fantastic Four writing chores?

[Brian Cronin]

Like, say, who came up with the idea that Black Bolt wouldn't talk, because his voice was too powerful?

Whose idea was it that Alicia Masters would look just like Sue?

Kirby would draw the issues before Stan would dialogue them, but exactly how much input did Stan have into the plot?

Anyone know?

-Brian

[Reptisaurus!]

Probably no way TOO know. Lee and Kirby claim different things... But I don't think we can trust either of them as credible sources.

Lee claimed to have done most of the original creative work.

But there's a HECK of a lotta parallells between Kirby's Challengers of the Unknown and the F.F. (In one Challenger's issue Rocky gets shot into space and gains the ability to throw fireballs and turn invisible, among other powers.)

An' I'm fairly sure that Kirby claimed to have dialouged the book. Which is patently and obviously false if you've read anything else from either gentleman.

[Brian Cronin]

Kirby really claimed to have dialogued the books?

That's surprising. I could see perhaps leaving notes for Stan for some things he'd like to see included IN the dialogue, but to actually claim that he did the dialogue?

That's surprising.

-Brian

[Brian Cronin]

Stan Lee had a pretty detailed design sheet (a synopsis of the characters and the plot for #1) for the creation of the Fantastic Four before the first issue was created - I always wondered - did he create that sheet BEFORE he talked to Kirby about the comic or AFTER?

-Brian

[Reptisaurus!]

Kirby really claimed to have dialogued the books?

I... think so. Can't find the interview on-line anywhere, though. It might be an urban legend. I know it's come up on the boards before.

[Reptisaurus!]

Some more thoughts: Mark Evanier says we should call them both co-creators.

There's an article by comics historian R.C. Harvey on Who did What in regards to the Lee/Kirby collaboration in that super-big Jack Kirby special that Fantagraphics put out a while back. I remember he says, ferinstance, that "This Man, This Monster" was characteristic of Lee's work but like nothing Kirby has ever done.

Mark Evanier disagrees with a bunch of what R.C. Harvey said.

It's certainly true that Stan WITH Kirby and Ditko was usually better than Stan WITHOUT Kirby and Ditko.

I mean, A LOT better. You read the early Daredevil? Welcome to suck city, population Matt Murdock.

But Stan was certainly a capable writer on his own, and everybody says so. Denny O' Neil credits Stan with basically teachin' him how the craft works. And Silver Surfer with Stan and Buscema was pretty damned good.

But then again; According to most stories, Kirby was gettin' pissed off with his arrangement at Marvel and was holding back ideas. And this seems really, REALLY true. Toomazooma? Geezus. Then he goes over to DC and *BAM* New Gods. Complete mythology outta whole cloth.

We do know that the Silver Surfer was Kirby's design, and that the Tales of Asgard strip over in Thor was ALL Kirby, everything but the dialouge. Stan said so, and in this specific incidence, I see no reason to doubt him.

It's REALLY HARD not to try to split the writing in Fantastic Four up. At least for me. Johnny and Crystal? That's SO Stan. Galactus? That's gotta be a Kirby. Lookit the mythic overtones.

But then again, Kirby drew the first romance comic. And Stan Lee wrote a "Mercury" strip back in the "Timely" days.
And did he do "Venus" for "Atlas?"

So it is really hard to tell.

[yo go re]

Whose idea was it that Alicia Masters would look just like Sue?

She does? Really?

[Reptisaurus!]

She does? Really?

Well, it's sixties Kirby. All his women kind of look the same.

Was this a plot point? I've read alla the Lee/Kirby FF in the past year, but I don't remember it.

[Brian Cronin]

Sounds like a good time to bring the Top Ten Goofiest Plot Points from the First Ten Issues of Fantastic Four over to the new blog. :D

-Brian

[yo go re]

#1: The Thing is Blackbeard!

Well, it's sixties Kirby. All his women kind of look the same.

You say that like it's not the same with most artists today...

[Mark Evanier]

A few quick points...

1. The amount of input Stan Lee had into the plot of his collaborations with Kirby changed over the years. He had more in the early issues (say, around the first twenty) than he did on the later ones but there were exceptions. If Stan was busy with other things on the day Jack had to start on a new issue, Jack might just tell Stan what kind of story he wanted to do and Stan would say "Fine," and that would be it. There were also times when Stan had ideas and would have more input. So it was not consistent, although both men (and all the extant evidence) agree that Jack had more and more freedom in plotting as Stan got busier with other comics and projects. I have some detailed quotes from Stan on all this that you'll read when I publish the biography I've written of Jack. (Maybe in the next year or so...)

2. Whenever Jack said he wrote the dialogue on a comic that was officially credited to Stan, what he meant was this: He wrote rough dialogue in his notes for Stan and Stan just polished it up. There are cases where this was more or less true and many where it was not. A lot of this argument has to do with definitions and what you think constitutes writing. If Jack wrote a marginal note that said in a given panel, "Reed says the monster may attack before dawn" and Stan writes a balloon for Mr. Fantastic that said, "We must be prepared...the monster will surely attack before dawn," then who wrote that line? Stan or Jack? There's no definitive answer to that question but you can understand how each many might feel he had.

3. I personally believe the famous Stan Lee plot outline for Fantastic Four #1 was written after extensive plotting sessions with Jack...but I have no hard evidence of that. For what it's worth though, everyone I've interviewed who was around Lee and Kirby at the time believes that Stan and Jack came up with all the basics of the comic by sitting in an office talking. I see no reason to presume otherwise.

4. The theme of "This Monster, This Man" reads very Kirbyesque to me.

And I think that covers everything I noticed.