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  1. #1
    Lenient Tyrant/Moderator Brian Cronin's Avatar
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    Default Actually Having Ragnarok Was a Terrible, Terrible Idea

    Seriously, how the heck did Ragnarok get approved?

    Let's say you think Thor, as a comic book, is dreadful. Fine, whatever.

    Let's say you want to totally retool it. Fine, whatever.

    But to actually have Ragnarok, and kill off all of these great characters for one storyline?

    What a terrible idea.

    I was just doing a bit on Snark Free Waters about the Warriors Three when I realized, "Oh right, they're all dead now, aren't they?" And it just was like, "Wow, what a dumb idea Ragnarok was."

    -Brian
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  2. #2
    Elder Member Sean Walsh's Avatar
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    I liked it.

    But I agree killing them all was uncool because now they're all dead for good. And bringing them back just cheapens the whole damn thing, which would suck.

    But it had to happen. It's Ragnarok. It was gonna happen eventually.

    But at this point in time?

    ...

    Damn, I'm quite torn on this.


    (BTW - "Clor" cheapens it as well...and is just a dumb idea anyway...but they need to use Thor somehow I guess...argh!)

  3. #3
    Junior Member Graham Vingoe's Avatar
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    I actually like Thor but the problem I had was that there is only so much you could do with him and the asgardian gods.
    How often had there been a false Ragnarok only for it to be averted , ready for the next one to come along? How many times did Odin punish Thor and confine him to a mortal body?
    How often was the single strongest figure in the Marvel Universe apart from the Hulk going to have to hold back his powers when realistically, he could have splatted the grey gargoyle, Mr Hyde etc with his hammer in one go?
    How many other pantheon of gods could Thor meet?

    Imho Jurgens tried to take him to the limits and failed- no offense to him, but he's not really cut out for cosmic storylines- (see Zero Hour as my evidence of this).

    Marvel let Oeming and Devito gave the character a fine send off at the end. Ragnarok should have been left as the demise of the character.

    Has the Marvel Universe really been worse off in the last couple of years without Thor? I don't think so.
    I'd have been quite happy if the last Thor series had seen Thor consigned to comics history permanently.
    Theres still 40 years worth of stories featuring him, do we REALLY need a relaunch??
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Cronin
    Seriously, how the heck did Ragnarok get approved?

    Let's say you think Thor, as a comic book, is dreadful. Fine, whatever.

    Let's say you want to totally retool it. Fine, whatever.

    But to actually have Ragnarok, and kill off all of these great characters for one storyline?

    What a terrible idea.
    Remember how, when Roy's Thor went on the tangent of the cycle of Ragnarok and rebirth for Asgard, circa #292, a long editorial by Mark Gruenwald was published explaining in fine detail how Ragnarok came at the end of each astronomical age, so the next one will not come until the end of the Age of Aquarius?

    That was totally disregarded. But if I may, at least it was an honorable demise for an honorable character. Far better than having the characters continue on in ways that distort the spirit and the purpose in which and for which they were brought to fictional life by the creative people of the past.

  5. #5
    Ben L FunkyGreenJerusalem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Vingoe
    I actually like Thor but the problem I had was that there is only so much you could do with him and the asgardian gods.
    I disagree there.
    Maybe there's only so much you can do with him if he's confined to the Marvel Universe, but keeping him seperate in his own fanatsy world could have worked for years.

    I was a big fan of the concept of Thor: Son Of Asgard.
    I picked up both volumes in digest form.
    I thought they fumbled the concept by having a writer who wasn't the best at character or dialouge, but damn it was a great concept - so great that when I saw it I was shocked I'd never thought how cool that would be, let alone writers much more imaginative than I.
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  6. #6
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    not *exactly* off topic, but - while you're actually talking about Thor...anyone know the issue where he supposedly "killed" Loki? he did it because Loki did something like, really really evil. Or something. And then Thors old man turned him into...er...a brown bag with Thors face on the front of it. I assume it was the end of one of the Thor runs.

    ...any takers? I'd like to try and nab this on Ebay so I can prove to someone it wasn't some trippy Thor dream.

  7. #7
    Elder Member Shellhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Cronin
    Seriously, how the heck did Ragnarok get approved?

    Let's say you think Thor, as a comic book, is dreadful. Fine, whatever.

    Let's say you want to totally retool it. Fine, whatever.

    But to actually have Ragnarok, and kill off all of these great characters for one storyline?

    What a terrible idea.

    I was just doing a bit on Snark Free Waters about the Warriors Three when I realized, "Oh right, they're all dead now, aren't they?" And it just was like, "Wow, what a dumb idea Ragnarok was."

    -Brian
    I agree. There were problems with Thor, admittedly, but killing everybody was a mistake. Sooner or later, some writer was going to have an excellent idea for how to use Thor, and they would be forced to retcon Ragnorak or reboot Asgard or somesuch, trivializing the legendary twilight of the norse gods.

    Jurgens had some great ideas, but took them so far that he effectively removed Thor from Marvel continuity. Odin was another long-term problem. Keep Odin around, and the writer must always explain why Odin didn't intervene. Maybe he was mad at Thor, or busy with an even bigger problem, or possibly just doing the Odin-sleep thing he had to do after a major use of power. But killing Odin created new problems, because it's hard to create suspense when the hero has Skyfather levels of power. So maybe giving Thor the Odin-power was the first mistake, and Quesada decided to do Ragnorak to clean the slate for his long-rumored Thorville project.

    I also agree with FunkyGreenJerusalem that Thor could have worked well as a fantasy series for years to come. It seems strange now, but Conan was one of Marvel's most popular comics back in the 70's. Thor could have gone on similar adventures, only on a more grand scale.
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  8. #8
    Administrator Expletive Deleted's Avatar
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    Eh, we've had Ragnaroks before. This one was a little more thorough, but not enough to preclude a quick and easy reversal.

    I suppose you could make the argument that this sort of thing trivializes comic book death, since they're all gonna come back, but . . . honestly, I think that one became moot a loooooong time ago.
    Expletive Deleted

  9. #9
    Lenient Tyrant/Moderator Brian Cronin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expletive Deleted
    Eh, we've had Ragnaroks before. This one was a little more thorough, but not enough to preclude a quick and easy reversal.

    I suppose you could make the argument that this sort of thing trivializes comic book death, since they're all gonna come back, but . . . honestly, I think that one became moot a loooooong time ago.
    That's my problem, though, in that they seem like they specifically do not WANT to reverse this one!

    Which is annoying.

    -Brian
    Comics Should Be Good, which features Comic Book Legends Revealed!... check them out!

    Also, be sure to check out my web site, Urban Legends Revealed!, for urban legends about Sports, TV, Movies, Music and more!

    And while we're at it, please buy my new book, Why Does Batman Carry Shark Repellent? And while you're at that, please buy my first book, Was Superman a Spy? and Other Comic Book Legends Revealed!

  10. #10
    Senior Member Jolly Mon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunkyGreenJerusalem
    I disagree there.
    Maybe there's only so much you can do with him if he's confined to the Marvel Universe, but keeping him seperate in his own fanatsy world could have worked for years.
    Still could work, without bringing him, or any of them back to life. They were immortal, meaning they've been around for thousands of years. Thousands of years of untold stories. They should be able to milk that for at least few years worth of comics.
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  11. #11
    Veteran Member Babylon23's Avatar
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    I think this story would have worked fine as one of "The End" series. As part of continuity, I didn't enjoy it as much as I otherwise might have.

    Of course, I was one of the people enjoying Jurgen's run. I thought he'd taken the book in a really interesting direction, one that could have had some longterm ramification if handled well. Unfortunately, almost all other books chose to ignore everything that was happening, even when Asgard appeared above New York.

    I also disagree that the character is limited. A good writer could find a wealth of new stories in the Thor mythos, even if they chose to centre it around Marvel Earth. Plus, as others have stated, the potential for a good sword and sorcery book was there as well.

  12. #12
    Retcon Punch Victim StrikeForce Albert's Avatar
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    This way JMS gets to reboot it in the dumbest way possible.

  13. #13
    Moderator Mister Mets's Avatar
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    I think it's a great idea, as the franchise was lagging, and in need of a major revamp, which I expect the JMS/ Coipel book will provide.

  14. #14
    Member 90'sCartoonMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Vingoe
    Has the Marvel Universe really been worse off in the last couple of years without Thor? I don't think so.
    I'd say it has. Who do The Avengers use to take Thor's place as their heavy hitter? The Sentry.

    Don't get me wrong, I liked both Sentry minis, but as an Avenger, he just comes off as a schizophrenic Superman. I think that limits the stories a lot more than having Thor on the team because either Sentry will get better to the point where he's just another Superman clone or he gets so bad/becomes unreliable that it wouldn't make sense for him to be on the team. Thor has the power and the decades of history, I don't like seeing him replaced.

    I didn't mind having Ragnarok since it seems like in Marvel, that's just part of the life cycle of the Asgardians. Wasn't Thor once known as Red Norvel before a previous Ragnarok rebooted the Asgardians and turned him into Thor?

  15. #15
    BANNED Bright-Raven's Avatar
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    Brian:

    Actually, since in Norse mythology Asgard is rebuilt in the aftermath of Ragnarok by the survivors, there is no reason why someone couldn't retool the concept for the next generation of readers without completely alienating the current fans.

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