Your Favorite Characters: Now Vs. Then!

[Gail Simone]

Okay, here's the question of the day:

Speaking of your favorite comics characters, did you like how they were written when you first read them more or less than you do how they are written currently?

Try to see past the haze of nostalgia...if you love, say, Green Lantern, do you prefer how he is written now, or how he was written when you first discovered him?

And why?

This isn't a thread to bash creators, just wondering how beloved memory compares with the top talent on today's books.

Gail

[YoGo]

Well my favourite character was SHOT in his first story arc because of SOMEBODY, so waiting for someone to come along and make him the new judomaster or dr. fate.

[WhiteRose]

When I was six, I loved Spider-Man. Spider-Man was the biggest hero I'd ever had, to the point where I'd DREAM of having his superpowers.

Now he makes me wanna punch him in the teeth. Fucking Civil War. And his storylines for the last two years.

[TCJohnson]

Nightcrawler..I liked how Claremont wrote him better than he is being written now. I thought Claremont made him a really complex but lovable character. Brubaker is doing a great job now, better than anybody has done in a long time, but not as good as Claremont in his prime.

Colossus and Kitty Pryde...I think they are being written better now. Whedon has everything that I enjoyed about them in my childhood but does them better.

Blue Beetle... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... I am not going to get into this.

Booster Gold ... turned into a complete, unlikable jerk, killed off in a really really stupid way and then given a horrible funeral as a joke.

fire ... An assassin for the government who specializes in burning crowds of people alive who has some dark secret that is even worse than that.

[Karen El]

I think Wonder Woman is probably better right now than it has been for a very long time. Not only is it good storytelling and lovely art, but it's probably the most fun it's been since Wonder Tot was fired.

Atom I liked way back in issue #1, but that may just be the nostalgia talking. And although I applaude the addition of Giganta to the team, which was a bit lacking in female representation, I can't help but feel that it's going to run into problems artistically before long. I mean when you have one person who is very large and another who is very small you are going to need really big pictures to fit both of them in at a recognisable level. Before long Atom is liable to be composed entirely of double page splashes.

[Gilda Dent]

I think Wonder Woman is probably better right now than it has been for a very long time. Not only is it good storytelling and lovely art, but it's probably the most fun it's been since Wonder Tot was fired.

Atom I liked way back in issue #1, but that may just be the nostalgia talking. And although I applaude the addition of Giganta to the team, which was a bit lacking in female representation, I can't help but feel that it's going to run into problems artistically before long. I mean when you have one person who is very large and another who is very small you are going to need really big pictures to fit both of them in at a recognisable level. Before long Atom is liable to be composed entirely of double page splashes.

In other words, it'll be like Planetary or The Authority.

Gilda

[Karen El]

In other words, it'll be like Planetary or The Authority.

Gilda

So long as Gail is still writing it I'll be happy.

Which makes me wonder what a Gail written Authority would be like.

Hmm.

Probably more shopping.

[JeffreyWKramer]

For a long time, Hal Jordan was my favorite character. I grew up on him as shown in JLA and reprints of his old Golden Age stories. Not a very complex characterization, but one that worked - I liked the idea of a gutsy, confident guy who wins via willpower, and I still like it now.

It was only later that I read the classic O'Neil/Adams GL/GA stories, in which we first see Hal's confidence rattled by stuff that really shouldn't cause that result. What, Hal was so clueless about the US that he didn't know racism existed until Ollie showed him? WTF?

Thankfully, that was largely ignored in later GL back-up stories in books like FLASH, and when GL/GA came back, eventually reverting back to GL. Some good stories, pre-crisis, including the Predator saga.

Unfortunately, Hal has been written badly more often than not since CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS. First there was the awful strip in ACTION COMICS WEEKLY, which portrayed him mostly as a loser. Later, "Emerald Dawn", portraying Hal's past as a problem drinker, then eventually "Emerald Twilight." Since he's returned, he's gone from being confident to mostly being a jerk. I mostly cringe when I read something including him these days. Really, the only exception in awhile has been Cooke's excellent THE NEW FRONTIER. Darwyn Cooke understands Hal.

I don't think all characters need to be complex. Superman/Clark Kent can be interesting enough with the dynamics of a virtual god pretending to be a normal man. Hal can be cool just being confident and gung-ho.

[Gilda Dent]

Spider-Man: I have the Masterworks, all seven books, taking the story up through #67, and the Essentials to take me through #160. Add in Spectacular volumes 1 and 2, and it is a good time to be a Spider-Man fan. These stories hold up, the artwork is serviceable to very nice, and the character is appealing, sympathetic, and admirable. I liked the first couple of years of Straczynski's work, but I dropped my Spider-Man books with "The Other" cross over. Definitely a "back then" thing. I hope we get two more Essentials to take us up through Amazing 200, and enough in Spectacular to get us through 100.

Fantastic Four are hit or miss. Lee/Kirby did some brilliant stuff, and also had some comlpete clunkers. The late 40's through about 60 is probably the best run on a superhero comic ever. The characters, though, that's a bit different. Ben and Johnny were well done right off the bat, but Sue was an utter twit the first decade or so, and Reed a casual mosogynist. Byrne's run, and I start this with his artwork chores rather than the first writer/artist issue, improves Reed and Sue, makes the best use of She Hulk ever to that point, and reinvents Doom as a deeper, more compelling villain. Waid's FF had the best Reed ever, and the first to focus on him as the central character in a long time. Strazynski's run was one I liked a lot until the Civil War tie ins started and Strazynkski removed Reed's essential moral character, and has so far turned the book into a new version of The Thing. In short, "then", then being the Byrne and Waid/Weiringo runs. They got the characters.

Black Canary, Huntress: I say this not to suck up, but because it's true. Definitely now. These characters have been better treated by Gail and by Dixon than in their original incarnations.

Legion of Superheroes: Now, meaning Waid's LOSH, and Then, then being Shooter's, are about equal for me. This may seem strange, given Shooter's opposition to homosexuality but I still enjoy the stories themselves because have an all hetero Legion isn't quite the same as attacking homosexuality. The Beirbaums did endorse and bring the homosexual characters out, but the stories of their era were a slight step down from Shooter's. So then-then equally if we're talking Shooter vs. Waid, and now emphatically compared to early Legion or any of the three or four subsequent Legions between.

Teen Titans: Wolfman/Perez era. Nothing else comes close. Well, except the PAD Young Justice, which technically isn't Teen Titans, but it is closer to the concept than The Titans was at the time.

Superman, Batman, X-Men--gave up on them a few years back.

Daredevil: Now, way ahead of Lee's version, and slightly ahead of Miller and Nocenti.

Avengers: Then, then being the Stern and Busiek versions, and Byrne's West Coast Avengers.

Justice League: Then (Dematteis/Giffen)

Wonder Woman: This is the one character that varies the most in quality for me depending on the writer. Anything prior to the first Crisis, nah. Perez afterwards had the best version, so another "then".

Flash: The Silver Age by a slight bit over Wally West. I liked the goofy villains and self-contained isues, though come to think of it, that's story, not character, so I'll change this one to then, then being Wally West.

Gilda

[TCJohnson]

Daredevil: Now, way ahead of Lee's version, and slightly ahead of Miller and Nocenti.

gilda, I am trying to remember but was it you who said you were reluctant to read Daredevil after Bendis left?

[JeffreyWKramer]

The Legion of Super-Heroes: Well, I've gone on my rant before. Definitely, absolutely and without a shadow of a doubt, I think the revisions and reboots of the Legion have been a bad thing. As far as I'm concerned, the Legion became terminally ill with CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTH, seemed to recover some during the 5YL period, then declined markedly, and was eventually put out of their misery during the wretched ZERO HOUR.

[Bob Violence]

After Civil War, the entire MU, but mainly Spider-Man. If you changed all the names and showed Stan Lee a Spider-Man script, he'd say "This guy doesn't ring any bells. You say I created him? Are you from the future?"
To be fair, it started with his marrying a super-model years ago, but it's gotten worse since then. The sad thing is, getting a divorce from MJ would bring Spider-Man back to his roots, but Marvel thinks they can't do it.

[Gilda Dent]

gilda, I am trying to remember but was it you who said you were reluctant to read Daredevil after Bendis left?

Crap. That's right. I was using Bendis's version which means I'm talking "then", but because I'm not reading whoever took over I can't say now.

Move Daredevil to the list with Batman, Superman, and the X-Men. I'm not reading the "now" version, so I can't say. I did like the recent version better than any other, but that's still a "then".

JWK: Yep. I really dislike what they did with the whole era of the constant reboots and Time Trapper huge, never ending arc. I'll reread the originals through the end of LOSH volume 2 (one was a limited series of reprints).

Vol. 3 was badly contaminated with tie ins to the Superman reboot and the resulting pocket universe/Time Trapper/Glorith endless storyline.

The worst part was that it was entirely unnecessary. Stick Silver Age Superboy in the future and leave him there, and call him a leftover from previous continuity. They could have said he survived because he was in the future when the parallel earths all collapsed.

Or, if you are going to use the pocket universe thing, use it as a simple, neat little explanation, and keep Superboy in the Legion or kill him off.

Or let him be absorbed and deleted without it affecting Legion continuity. They could say all the time travel and visits did occur, they just occurred to a timeline that no longer exists.

It's a freakin thousand year time difference. There was no need to give anything more than a basic explanation. All the Superboy existed, but he came from the pocket universe, no wait, he never existed at all, it was really Mon-El, Supergirl never existed, it was really Laurel Gand, no wait, the Time Trapper created it all, no wait, the Time Trapper doesn't exist, it's an insane goddess, no wait, the time trapper does exist, but he's an insane alternate future Cosmic Boy, no wait, all the stories happened, no wait, none of them did, and we're going to start brand new, but wait, we'll make frequent reference to stories that didn't happen crap seemed designed to screw things up.

How about this: Keep continuity and don't explain it at all! Or a simple one liner--it's one possible future (this works fine for Spider-Girl).

Arrrgh. They had a nice little saftey valve for interesting characters that didn't fit post-crisis continuity: Stick them into the Legion future.

Good god, I can come up with a dozen good ways to leave Legion continuity alone during all of the various crises.

How about this: The Legion is 1000 years in the future. It'll take a thousand years for the timeline changes to reach them.

Company wide integration of continuity, creating a percieved need for crossovers and continuity fixes that tie into other books ruined the Legion, and eventually has infected nearly everything about the big two to the point that they're constantly "fixing continuity" and screwing up good stories in the individual books.

I liked that Spectacular Spider-Man had what amounted to it's own separate continuity from Amazing for years, with only a few basic elements shared, and a different tone to the stories.

Yes, let's keep internal continuity relatively consistent, but universe wide stuff that serves as service to the most anal-retentive fanboys really doesn't make the stories in the books themselves any better.

Gilda [continuity rant #14]

[TCJohnson]

Crap. That's right. I was using Bendis's version which means I'm talking "then", but because I'm not reading whoever took over I can't say now.

Gotta say, you are doing yourself a diservice. Brubake is absolutely great on Daredevil.

[Zeb Oswalt]

1.Huntress Then Well that was Helaniea Wayne when I first read her. The new one was descent liked the whole mafia thing. Now a great member of BOP. I still think the 700 sit up joke with her and Black Cannery in the current run was great, Good one Ms. Gal.


2. Captain Britain Then Collage Student and friend of Peter Parker. I loved the full face mask and his hair sticking out of it bit. Now, an important part of the whole house of M story. To bad he lost the love of his life. Or is she the second love of his life. Granted Courtney Rose was also killed... well before House of M. Is she still dead?

3. Super Man still great few minor things here and there, but great.

4. She Hulk then a funny Character Handel ed By John Byrne. Now a funny character Handel by Dan Sloth and mostly Juan Bobillo With great Greg Horn covers.

5. Night Hawk Then a millionaire smart Alice. I think he's still rich, just now he's a racist afro American hero. And has about as much humor as Bats. Couldn't he have just been made an Afro American hero but, be the same guy?

6. Misty Knight then Crime detective now... ware is she any way?

7. Spider Man some guys never change.

8. Lilith Drake The daughter of Dac and cool anti hero. Now Thurmatoist for some reason. And S.H.E.I.L.D. agent.

9. Night Shade Then Villain whom apposed Cap. And she had a brilliant Mind. Now a Brilliant Scientist whom helps Black Panther.

10. Dr. Light Brilliant woman Scientist with light powers now, is she still alive?

11. Martian Man hunter Then funny guy who loved Oreo. Now some times detective member of the JLA

12. Fire Cool fun gal. Now...well she was in thing that came after Indent Crisis.

13. Bat Man hasn't changed.

14. Babs Then Bat Girl. Now she's the Orical. First computer genius and female Nero Wolf. Black Carry was her Archie. Guys that makes the Huntress her Archie now.

15. Red Skull Loon Villain bent on World Donation. Now slick business man with his fingers in Several pies. Creating chaos threw the back. Oh wait Bucky killed him.


16. Zealot Bad to the bone warrior ...we'll see what Grant Morison does to her.

17. Crazy Jane. Then lunatic with many powers. Now haven't seen her since Grant Morison stepped her up a notch.

18. Robot Man..well about the same.

19. Ambush bug. Crazy character in blizzard sit ions Now Rapper...what the...?

20. Kitty Pride Then Great Member of Excalibur sorry didn't like her till then. Now Buff.

21. Rachel Van Halsing. Bad to the bone vampire slayer. Buff who? Now she's dust.

22. Lobo Then the comic book version of Lenny from Motor head mixed with Ted Nuget and a touch of Gean Simons. Now ....gggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhahhhh. To pointless for words. Though Keiff Griffin did a good job when he revived him in his book. Not sure if it stuck or not.


23. Power Girl. Then Great JLE member now back to basics.

24. Death Lock The Cybor...Now A Mega death poster. If his body is rotting how can his hair grow? His flesh can't even live any more as it's decaying, but he can grow Fa bio hair? This one gets a mind of Mancea award.

25. Rag Man then Bad to the bone Vigilante. Now a rag Gollem? Some one write peace on his Forehead in Yiddish and remove the e. Please!

26. Brun hilda The Valkyrie then Great Defenders member. Now is she the embody meant of death or just dead now?

27. Super Girl then Super Man's cousin now er super Man's cousin.

28. Jason Tood Yep I'm the one. Then sadistic Robin. Now Red Mask.

29. Rose and the Thorn. Then Lunatic Now Vigilante

30. Jade Then Member of Infinity Inc. Now Green Lantern.

31. Poison Ivy, Then Great villain . Now Swamp Thing's sister.

32. Blade didn't like him till the movie. Wasn't a fan of him till they made him a day walker. Like his book when it was published.

33. Shang Chi Then David Carden. Now Bruce Lee. Odd since the Cat was Bruce lee in his comic.

34. Nova Then Great hero cool powers. Now....em reality tv star?

35. Namrita Then great female Namor. Now..dead. And the dead mother she was cloned from is alive.

36. US Agent Pscho Captain Americas. Now snnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnoooring.

37. Tigra hey some good things stay the same.