Hugo Chavez

[RAB]

Kudos to Steven for writing about the furor over his "Devil" remarks from a sane and rational perspective. One thing the American public doesn't see in the Fox-edited video footage (which other outlets were using, possibly including even CNN) is the exaggerated gestures Chavez made of theatrically crossing himself and pressing his palms together as if in prayer right after he made the comment. It was theatre. It was a joke, albeit a dark and pointed one.

I wonder if it may not also have been a pointed reference to the way Bush frames all his rhetoric in highly religious apocalyptic absolute-good-versus-absolute-evil terms. But the American news media don't do nuance or allusion, so they may have missed that angle.

I'd like to see all the people hyperventilating over this next lining up to condemn Ann Coulter for the venomous bile she issues on a regular basis. Ah, but when Coulter and O'Reilly and Limbaugh and Robertson agree with Al Qaeda, approve of (or even call for) attacks on American cities because those cities are asking for it, or call for the execution of Americans who are political opponents...it's okay because they're on the right side. But when an democratically elected leader simply makes fun of their hero, he's a dangerous madman!

[Steven Grant]

American media haven't missed that angle so much as ignored it. They figured out in the '80s (Thanks, Jerry! Thanks, Rupert!) that you can draw bigger audiences if you frame as many stories as possible in apocalyptic terms, and making any imagined threat feel as immediate as possible: "Can videogames turn your children into cannibals? Lock up your seasonings and save your own life - tonight at 11!"

So I imagine they're thrilled that the Hand Puppet couches everything as an imminent apocalypse. Then they don't have to; they can just say they're "neutrally" reporting the news...

- Grant

[sabongero]

I would just lke to comment that President Chavez of Valenzuela is very lucky he is stepping on the soil of a land where justice is administered fairly. Our system is not perfect, but it is better than other countries.

Should a president of another country stated Chavez's words towards him, I am sure he would have done something about it. After all he has strong-arm tactics in place in Venezuela despite being elected democratically. If it were not for Venezuelan oil, Chavez would surely have been replaced by a coup d'etat within a couple of years.

I cannot condone what he has said about President Bush. I have at times disagreed with our President's foreing policy, but he is our leader, and I stand by his decisions. I can vote for whom I choose in the next election.

As for Chavez having an outreach program for the poor in his country. This is the only positive I can say about the man. Other than that, it is mostly negatvie commentary in my part. I would also like to say, shame to the hispanic community in East Harlem for welcoming this man in return for a few measly cheap gasoline prices. I would like them to explain to the widows of victims of Chavez's strong arm rule in Venezuela, how they in East Harlem can welcome Chavez with open arms.

[Steven Grant]

Not sure what the oil has to do with it; Chavez was almost replaced in a coup d'etat anyway. Is that supposed to mean something? The coup d'etat was largely financed with American money, just as Republican think tanks tried funneling American money to Chavez's opponents during the last election there despite a legal ban there on foreign money in national elections. (He has since used that law to cow his opponents a little by threatening them with prosecution, but he hasn't actually bothered to prosecute anyone.)

Care to go into more detail on his strongarm tactics? As far as I know he doesn't have roaming hit squads, but if he does I'd like to hear about it.

As far as him calling the president "the devil," I take that about as seriously as Iran calling America "the great Satan." Who cares? It's just cheap theater. You really think anyone's going to take him seriously, or suddenly get any more hostile towards us as a result? (I know a lot of Americans were upset at the country being called "The Great Satan," but would they have been more or less upset if they knew that in Muslim tradition Satan is considered an ineffectual clown rather than the borderline all-powerful demigod of Christian tradition?)

- Grant

[WorldWide]

Read my signature.

[Steven Grant]

People who aren't even on this board could read your signature...

- Grant

[Paul McEnery]

I would just lke to comment that President Chavez of Valenzuela is very lucky he is stepping on the soil of a land where justice is administered fairly. Our system is not perfect, but it is better than other countries.

No, it isn't. Every other developed nation has a better system than ours.

Venezuela is currently more of a democracy than America is. And our dictatorship tried not just once but twice to launch a coup against Chavez, and failed. That's two coups.

And we're crying because Chavez called Bush a name.

[Adam Crocker]

I have at times disagreed with our President's foreing policy, but he is our leader, and I stand by his decisions.

Why stand by decisions you disagree with?

[Briareos]

He's nothing more then a dictator. If I went to Venezeula and spoke about how he his human rights abuses I'd end up in jail with the key thrown away. The problem everyone has with him isn't what he said so much as that he had the audacity the come on American soil (I know the U.N. technically isn't but you get the point) and call us evil and us a problem when he doesn't even give his own citizens basic human rights.

For all this talk about the Right and Republicans supressing free speach there doesn't seem to be much actual evidence otherwise. Last time I checked Michael Moore can still make movies about whatever he wants and the Dixie Chicks were so censored they had to go on the front cover of Entertainment Weekly just to show how censored they were...

[Briareos]

No, it isn't. Every other developed nation has a better system than ours.

Venezuela is currently more of a democracy than America is. And our dictatorship tried not just once but twice to launch a coup against Chavez, and failed. That's two coups.

And we're crying because Chavez called Bush a name.

So it would be ok if Bush said that the 14th amendment didn't apply to him and that he could run for re-election a 3rd time and then hold a fraudulent election and become President for Life?

[Briareos]

I would just lke to comment that President Chavez of Valenzuela is very lucky he is stepping on the soil of a land where justice is administered fairly. Our system is not perfect, but it is better than other countries.

Should a president of another country stated Chavez's words towards him, I am sure he would have done something about it. After all he has strong-arm tactics in place in Venezuela despite being elected democratically. If it were not for Venezuelan oil, Chavez would surely have been replaced by a coup d'etat within a couple of years.

I cannot condone what he has said about President Bush. I have at times disagreed with our President's foreing policy, but he is our leader, and I stand by his decisions. I can vote for whom I choose in the next election.

As for Chavez having an outreach program for the poor in his country. This is the only positive I can say about the man. Other than that, it is mostly negatvie commentary in my part. I would also like to say, shame to the hispanic community in East Harlem for welcoming this man in return for a few measly cheap gasoline prices. I would like them to explain to the widows of victims of Chavez's strong arm rule in Venezuela, how they in East Harlem can welcome Chavez with open arms.

We don't know anything about his so called "outreach" program... Same with the Cuban health care system. Everyone knows there are 2 tiers. The connected and wealthy in Cuba get top class service. 99% of everyone else is stuck with 3rd world care. The left and the MSM continue to eat up whatever pablum Castro and his ilk feed them in reguards to how great their country is. A model went to Cuba a few months ago and when she went out onto the streets and took a picture of a slum she was instantly arrested.

[sabongero]

Paul let me clarify myself. Our democracy is not perfect of course. I am trying to say our society is better.

Just think of going to a fast food restaurant anywhere in the USA. Now are there armed security guards at the front door armed with shotguns and M-16s automatic rifles with their belts full of either automatic clips/rounds or bullets/magazines. That was what I was trying to convey sorry about that.

Steve as far as strongarm tactics in South America...it will not proven that the goons are Chavez's goons or Chavez's boys. South America will always have goon squads and stron arm tactics will always be prevalent as this is institutionalized in almost every country in South America.

In fact stronarm tactics for political reasons are very prevalent in countries that go by GGG (Gold Guns God). These are mostly catholic countries in Latin America.

[Steven Grant]

Steve as far as strongarm tactics in South America...it will not proven that the goons are Chavez's goons or Chavez's boys. South America will always have goon squads and stron arm tactics will always be prevalent as this is institutionalized in almost every country in South America.

Believe me, I'm not unfamiliar with the concept of Latin American goon squads, but most are relatively easy to trace; even at the height of the massacres in El Salvador in the '80s it wasn't difficult for American journalists to track who were running the death squads. I shouldn't think that if goon squads roaming Venezuela were under orders from Chavez that it would be all that hard to prove. Basically what it comes down to is, yes, if Chavez is running goon squads he's using strongarm tactics. But if he isn't, he isn't.

And it's only fairly recently that goon squads became not a fairly visible feature of American life, though it's not something written about in many history books, so it's not something special to Latin American countries. (And if they seem to have perfect the concept in the last 50 years, in many countries it hasn't been without considerable help from the CIA, and generous donations of American money.)

- Grant

[Paul McEnery]

He's nothing more then a dictator. If I went to Venezeula and spoke about how he his human rights abuses I'd end up in jail with the key thrown away. The problem everyone has with him isn't what he said so much as that he had the audacity the come on American soil (I know the U.N. technically isn't but you get the point) and call us evil and us a problem when he doesn't even give his own citizens basic human rights.

For all this talk about the Right and Republicans supressing free speach there doesn't seem to be much actual evidence otherwise. Last time I checked Michael Moore can still make movies about whatever he wants and the Dixie Chicks were so censored they had to go on the front cover of Entertainment Weekly just to show how censored they were...

Hey Bri --

Wanna give me figures for the number of political prisoners in Venezuela? Wanna give me the figures for the number of political prisoners held by America?

[Paul McEnery]

Paul let me clarify myself. Our democracy is not perfect of course. I am trying to say our society is better.

Just think of going to a fast food restaurant anywhere in the USA. Now are there armed security guards at the front door armed with shotguns and M-16s automatic rifles with their belts full of either automatic clips/rounds or bullets/magazines. That was what I was trying to convey sorry about that.

Steve as far as strongarm tactics in South America...it will not proven that the goons are Chavez's goons or Chavez's boys. South America will always have goon squads and stron arm tactics will always be prevalent as this is institutionalized in almost every country in South America.

In fact stronarm tactics for political reasons are very prevalent in countries that go by GGG (Gold Guns God). These are mostly catholic countries in Latin America.

Um, hang on. I don't think I quite got that.

I don't think there are armed guards at every fast food restaurant in Venezuela.

At the same time, I don't think anyone's ever gone hunting humans in a McDonald's in Venezuela, but somebody sure did in San Diego.

Meanwhile, you wanna talk about goon squads? We not only paid for but trained goon squads in Honduras and El Salvador; we sponsored military coups in Chile and Brazil, and backed the one in Argentina; we propped up goon squads in Nicaragua and Panama.

Goon squads R US.