Civil War #4 *spoilers*

[jackolover]

Oh, this is terrible. A clone of Thor, made by Reed Richards, kills one of the anti-regs. Sue Richards saves the remaining anti-regs from a savage bolt from Moilnor. The rest of the pro-side are in shock. The anti-side go via Cloak and Dagger teleportation. There is a funeral for Goliath, and some cryptic reference to Peter Parker acting strangely. Must have been a reference to the crack Peter made about 'I didn't sign up for this'

Then the really weird revelation that the fifty states initiative may be policed by an army of clones, made by Reed, Hank Pym, and Tony Stark. This just gets more wacko every issue.

If that wasn't enough, Sue Richards is ashamed of Reed, and leaves him, taking Johnny Storm, to join Cap. Ben Grimm looks on, out a window, at them going. Although, I thought Ben talked about leaving for Europe in FF 539.

Another great shocker of an issue. It just shakes you down to your feet. Phenomenal issue from Millar and McNiven.

What is interesting, is that the anti-side left the wounded behind. These were captured and sent to the 42 facility prison.

And Caps ranting was the most bitter I have ever heard him.

[scapegoat]

wtf are you for real

[jackolover]

wtf are you for real

WTF indeed. I'm having trouble digesting this. I'm sitting here.... Stunned isn't the word for it. I think I want to explode, but I just need to hear what other posters say about it.

[Markavian]

A Storm Clone and a Scarlet Witch Clone and a Shehulk Clone and a Dagger clone and a Sentry Clone with its Y chromosome changed to X :evilsmile :D

[Blackcat]

Aren't there time rules to spoiling an issue? I'm almost sure you're about 24 hours to early with spoiling!

[scapegoat]

Reed, Hank, and Tony Stark creating a army of clones sounds like some thing Docter doom or the Leader wood do its just wrong and to top it off its sounds like they were totaly willing to kill and wood of if sue had not steped in how could any hero work for the pro side now what they are doing should shock alot of people i am pro but this is going to far there becoming just as bad as any villian.

I think
This is that is gong to help the anti side come out on top

Make spiderman and maybe other supers switch sides

I hope
Sue leaves Reed for good and gets with Namor who kicks the crap out of Reed

The real Thor shows up cracks the clone Thors head takes his hammer and eats iron man for lunch

p.s Death to the Thor clone

[Markavian]

Millar is writing the Clone just to take the typical left wing approach that "Science is evil! " And he wrote the Clone as going out of control to bolster that Theame. I dont know why a Clone of Thor would be needed anyway.The Pros owned the battle anyway.I could see An Army of Clones against Like an Alien or Demonic invasion but this is like going after a kid swipping Hubcaps with Superman..SHEILD Should have kept the Thor clone as its Ace in the hole not pull it out on a battle in which the Pro side was winning anyway IMHO.

[jackolover]

Aren't there time rules to spoiling an issue? I'm almost sure you're about 24 hours to early with spoiling!

I'm not sure. Please let me know if this is the case. I looked up rules as you told me, but I couldn't find a 24 hour delay.

[Jmacq1]

Millar is writing the Clone just to take the typical left wing approach that "Science is evil! " And he wrote the Clone as going out of control to bolster that Theame. I dont know why a Clone of Thor would be needed anyway.The Pros owned the battle anyway.I could see An Army of Clones against Like an Alien or Demonic invasion but this is like going after a kid swipping Hubcaps with Superman..SHEILD Should have kept the Thor clone as its Ace in the hole not pull it out on a battle in which the Pro side was winning anyway IMHO.

I can see the use for the Clone (assuming all this is true). Tony (as indicated in Civil War Files) doubted that the real Thor would side with the government. But having the long-missing "Thor" suddenly show up as a rabid Pro-Registration proponent is a brilliant bit of psychological warfare, as clearly evidenced by the looks of terror on the Anti-Reg faces when he goes ballistic on them in the previews (The newsarama and popcultureshock previews). It's tremendously demoralizing, and no doubt hits Cap on a personal level that his other "best friend" among the Avengers would seemingly side so strongly with Tony. Particularly when Thor has affirmed his loyalty and "brotherhood" to Cap many many times over the years.

Not to say Thor would necessarily strongly side with the Anti-Reg folks, but at the very least he'd likely be "neutral" and either try to stop the fighting or wash his hands of it and let the "mortals" get it out of their systems. Instead we get a shock that was just as jarring for many readers as it was for the Anti-Reg heroes themselves.

And I'll say this: Cloning heroes is probably one of the -least- "evil" or "dark and dirty" alternatives that sprang to mind when it came to Tony's potential plans and the mysterious "42 File". That's not to say it isn't without a lot of potential ethical sinkholes, but it's -far- less damning than something like brainwashing or nano-controlling Anti-Reg heroes, or depowering them (though this would be less objectionable if it were a -voluntary- process, IE "volunteer for depowerment" and then you don't have to worry about registration anymore), or otherwise conducting horrible experiments on them.

In other words, I find the "cloning a superhero army" idea a -bit- less objectionable than some of the alternatives. I wouldn't say I -agree- with it, particularly since it seems to greatly devalue individuality and life in general (I -do- find it rather galling that Tony would clone one of his supposed best friends to be his personal WMD, but still). I guess a lot of it would also depend on how the clones are trained and treated. Just making pure "living weapons" would -not- be good. But if they're treated like (and respected as) real living beings, then it's not so terrible. However their first experiment seems a bit on the aggressive/dangerous side...that doesn't bode well for that whole "accountability" factor that the Pro-Reg side is such a strong proponent of.

At the very least, "Cloning" is something that can keep people divided rather than completely slapping it in everyone's face that the Pro-Reg side is completely and horribly wrong (as opposed to just doing a terrible/unethical job of enforcing an at least partially-sensible law).

But again, I don't have Civil War #4 yet, and it's possible (though growing more unlikely) that the spoilers are incorrect. If not, though, all the above applies.

[CyberCoyote]

So the suckitiatization of the marvel universe continues! (Actually this means it just started!)

No way in sin Reed Richards would start using CLONES to contain the outbreak of superhumans.

So is Nitro gonna be a clone given enhanced power, too?

This had best be a fake Reed in the first place. It won't justify this attack of the clones garbage but it'll get it to GO AWAY for us when it's all said and done.

CLONES?!?! Agg! How trite and mundane is that? I hated the whole Civil War premise from the start, but this is just..horrible. Pathetic. Senseless.

Are half the stories in the MU gonna be retconned now by the clone theory? Is Spidey back in black another freaking clone?

So ridiculous.

[Violently Apathetic]

Millar is writing the Clone just to take the typical left wing approach that "Science is evil! "

That's the typical LEFT wing approach? Are you sure? It seems to me that it is not the Left that generally has huge problems with things like evolution, stem cell research or even cloning...not to turn this into a political debate or anything, but I find that statment rather confusing. Unless you're talking about science as a way of making weapons of war, in which case maybe you should be more specific. Sorry if I misunderstood.

[Jmacq1]

Just a brief repetition of what I said in another thread:

Are you all saying you'd prefer seeing a classic Marvel hero turn into a "mad-dog" hero-killer, rather than have it explained he's some kind of impostor?

[Nomad]

I love ya, marky, but I agree with Violent on this one. But I am a partisan pig-f*****

I'm gonna go take a shower and wash all the dirties away. My mind is blown.

edit- ok, love is strong word, but I respect you in the same way a respect magneto rocks and haunt. You guys are a blast to debate with

[Violently Apathetic]

I know if I were a Thor fan I wouldn't exactly be pleased by his entrance. 'Yay, Thor's back....and he's gone nuts! Woooo!' I'd be looking desperately for a way to explain his behavior. I mean even if you believe he would lower himself to the level of actually becoming actively involved in the conflict and would side with Iron Man why would you want to accept someone who is practically foaming at the mouth and bleating out lines that would the average action move hero cringe*?

*You should leave THAT to Cap.

[DattaBoy]

So if this is a clone and the hammer is fake then this wasn't the same Thor that appeared in the FF issues was it???