Cap's Loyalty: To the gov. or the people?

[Markavian]

To quote the Declaration (again, this topic seems to come up a lot...)

"Prudence indeed, will dictate, that Governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security."

That is far and away different than Captain America attacking the country because there is a law he doesn't like. Like I said above, there is a democratic system that has been established, that is the proper course.

Which is why with a heavy heart I have maintained throughout Civil War Cap is in the Wrong :(

[bulbasteve]

yeah I should been more clear as far as "people holding government accountable", I didn't mean that people had the right to terriorize the government, what I was implying was that through means within the law (ie. voting people out of office, impeachment, supereme court, etc.) My bad for being super vague :o

Aha, makes sense. But then...what the heck DOES Cap believe? The only thing I think he has ever mentioned was one vague comment about who they will be answering to in New Avengers. I mean at least with someone like Cage playing the race card, they may be wrong, but you at least know where they are coming from. But Caps complaint is right in the bill itself, he should know who his superiors will be...

[the Dagman]

.....The US Goverment IS the Expression of the Peoples will and desires...

Nearly 60% of the real world Americans would disagree with you right there. Most Americans with a mind of their own realize the US government for what it is: The best government money can buy. And it was bought lock, stock and barrel by big business many decades ago. And remember that Marvel is always saying they are setting the MU in the "real" world, so the same holds true there.

Captain America has always held true to the ideal of America. Not the government, more than the people, it is what the people aspire to be. Cap knows that just because something has been made a law it doesn't make it right. Slavery was law once, did that make it any less wrong? Alcohol abolision was law for a while too, until the silent majority made their wills known. The majority is usually silent until something gets them mad. Most of the time they are too wrapped up in their own lives than to voice an opinion on the greater world at large. This gives the smaller, yet noisier, groups the idea that they speak for America because their voice is currently the loudest. The difference is very noticable. The last time the collective majority of Americans was heard was 5 years ago in the aftermath of 9/11. The tone of the nation is very different from that time versus.... now, for instance. So just because someone is steadfast in their opinion, no matter any evidence to the contrary, just because they yell the loudest and stomp their feet, just because they make post after post on forums like these without ever listening to the other side, doesn't make them right.

And I do have a question for you Markavian: If you are such a staunch government supporter, why is your avatar "The Captain"? That was the identity Cap created the last big time Cap and the US gov't had a big fallout, where they confiscated his costume and shield in an attempt to shut him up. I know the look was taken by John Walker for USAgent, but that doesn't change where it came from and what it stands for and that is against the decided pro-gov't stance you have taken on these boards.

[Wind-Breaker]

Which is why with a heavy heart I have maintained throughout Civil War Cap is in the Wrong :(

Now would you say the way he's going about it is wrong or his opposition of the law is wrong?

I think to the opposition of the law is justified (the basic idea of the law itself is reasonable, but with SHEILD involved in it complicates things in a bad way), but the way Cap goes about it is wrong. Although, the way the writers in Frontline portray Speedball's legal situation, it's hard to imagine Cap being able to go through the courts and oppose the law as an unregistered combatant. But if Cap registers and then tries to oppose it, you’re dealing with a situation where he's a hypocrite in the public's eyes (like congress members voting for the war in Iraq, and then later saying their against it). If Cap registers then tries to changes things from the inside, he'll have to hunt his fellow heroes. So it’s hard to say what way Cap could to do to oppose the law, but the way he's going about it now isn't right.

[bulbasteve]

Nearly 60% of the real world Americans would disagree with you right there. Most Americans with a mind of their own realize the US government for what it is: The best government money can buy. And it was bought lock, stock and barrel by big business many decades ago. And remember that Marvel is always saying they are setting the MU in the "real" world, so the same holds true there.

Then elect people who don't favor big business. But I don't think there has been anything about big business in Civil War, so it's not much of an issue here.

Captain America has always held true to the ideal of America. Not the government, more than the people, it is what the people aspire to be. Cap knows that just because something has been made a law it doesn't make it right. Slavery was law once, did that make it any less wrong? Alcohol abolision was law for a while too, until the silent majority made their wills known. The majority is usually silent until something gets them mad. Most of the time they are too wrapped up in their own lives than to voice an opinion on the greater world at large. This gives the smaller, yet noisier, groups the idea that they speak for America because their voice is currently the loudest. The difference is very noticable. The last time the collective majority of Americans was heard was 5 years ago in the aftermath of 9/11. The tone of the nation is very different from that time versus.... now, for instance. So just because someone is steadfast in their opinion, no matter any evidence to the contrary, just because they yell the loudest and stomp their feet, just because they make post after post on forums like these without ever listening to the other side, doesn't make them right.

It isn't even so much about right and wrong, but legal and illegal. In the real Civil War Lincoln told people to still follow slavery and work it's abolition through the courts and the legislature. The ideal of America is democracy and the rule of law. That is what America is founded on, that is what the Revolution was about, that is the "Political Religion" Lincoln spoke of. Any other idea of what this 'american ideal' is may be a valid opinion about politics or civil society, but it isn't what the "american ideal" is about.

[Markavian]

Now would you say the way he's going about it is wrong or his opposition of the law is wrong?

I think to the opposition of the law is justified (the law itself is reasonable, but with SHEILD involved in it complicates things in a bad way), but the way Cap goes about it is wrong. Although, the way the writers in Frontline portray Speedball's legal situation, it's hard to imagine Cap being able to go through the courts and oppose the law as an unregistered combatant. But if Cap registers and then tries to oppose it, you’re dealing with a situation where he's a hypocrite in the public's eyes (like congress members voting for the war in Iraq, and then later saying their against it). If Cap registers then tries to changes things from the inside, he'll have to hunt his fellow heroes. So it’s hard to say what way Cap could to do to oppose the law, but the way he's going about it now isn't right.

As I have stated if Cap formed a Political PAC to Oppose or try to shape the SHRA or Testified before Congress as Tony did spending his own Political Capital(And Captain America has TONS of that!) and if SHEILD et al STILL Spit on Cap and tried to take him down then I would be the most Anti of all.There were so many ways Cap could have responded even to Hills ambush..He could have summoned the Avengers and 3 uninjured Members of the FF . They would have Come...Hill would have been in a hotseat and maybe would have to resign or at least eat a lot of humble pie at least.But no Cap went underground like he had no Avengers he could trust.I am sure all of them even Tony would have backed him had he acted quickly.:(

[Markavian]

Nearly 60% of the real world Americans would disagree with you right there. Most Americans with a mind of their own realize the US government for what it is: The best government money can buy. And it was bought lock, stock and barrel by big business many decades ago. And remember that Marvel is always saying they are setting the MU in the "real" world, so the same holds true there.

Captain America has always held true to the ideal of America. Not the government, more than the people, it is what the people aspire to be. Cap knows that just because something has been made a law it doesn't make it right. Slavery was law once, did that make it any less wrong? Alcohol abolision was law for a while too, until the silent majority made their wills known. The majority is usually silent until something gets them mad. Most of the time they are too wrapped up in their own lives than to voice an opinion on the greater world at large. This gives the smaller, yet noisier, groups the idea that they speak for America because their voice is currently the loudest. The difference is very noticable. The last time the collective majority of Americans was heard was 5 years ago in the aftermath of 9/11. The tone of the nation is very different from that time versus.... now, for instance. So just because someone is steadfast in their opinion, no matter any evidence to the contrary, just because they yell the loudest and stomp their feet, just because they make post after post on forums like these without ever listening to the other side, doesn't make them right.

And I do have a question for you Markavian: If you are such a staunch government supporter, why is your avatar "The Captain"? That was the identity Cap created the last big time Cap and the US gov't had a big fallout, where they confiscated his costume and shield in an attempt to shut him up. I know the look was taken by John Walker for USAgent, but that doesn't change where it came from and what it stands for and that is against the decided pro-gov't stance you have taken on these boards.

Taken by John Walker when after the Vison tried to take over the world and Uncle Sam wisely decided that the West Coast Avengers needed more Oversight as they were part of the Insane Andriods plot to control the United States :p :D ;)

[jackolover]

Captain America embodies many themes of American patriotism. His symbolism is so broad that sometimes it can be somewhat vague. Civil War would be an example of one of those times. In a conflict between the U.S. government, and a portion of the country's citizens, a question must be posed:

Should Captain America's loyalty be towards his country's government or his country's citizens?

From one perspective Cap should be loyal to his government, because being a solider he always has been loyal to them. He has fought for years for a government that provides its people freedom. In order for those freedoms and the safety of the citizens to be intact, laws must be enforced and obeyed.

On the other hand, the people is what make the country what it is. Protecting the rights and ensuring the safety has always been important to Cap. In terms of priority, the purpose of government is to serve and protect the people, and a broad interpretation of the Declaration of Independence would be a contract between the government and it's citizens. If terms of that contract are violated, the people have right to hold the government accountable.

So in terms of the Civil War situation, should Captain America's loyalty be towards the government or the citizens?

I tend to think Cap has swung from his WW11 loyalty to the government, to being more concerned with upholding freedom for the people. He's like a one man race-conscience.. I mean Superman takes that role in the DC universe, so Cap labours to carry that off in the MU. But I think Cap sees himself as above the law - sort of like a Gandhi figure.

[jackolover]

.....The US Goverment IS the Expression of the Peoples will and desires. In the Case of the SHRA the vast Majority Support it so you can say Civil War is the only Time Captain America has gone against Whats Best for the Safety and Future of the American people

I like this point. It makes you think that Cap is doing something over and above what the popular opinion is thinking = SHRA. It's like, Cap knows best, and the people don't know whats good for them.

Cap - Ah, the people are blind. I have to show them the right way of doing stuff. Besides, ordinary citizens don't know what it takes to be a superhero. I do. So, the best way to let people know, is to give them an image of me struggling against this abhorant SHRA.

Iron Man - Cap. You're so full of S**t.

[Omega Alpha]

I like this point. It makes you think that Cap is doing something over and above what the popular opinion is thinking = SHRA. It's like, Cap knows best, and the people don't know whats good for them.

So, the people are never wrong? It isn't possible that they are not very reasonable after big tragedies? Wouldn't a specialist in some area (let's say, superheroes) know what's best for the US and the world in that department than most people, who are not, and often don't have a clue? Wouldn't this specialist do whatever it takes to show the people they're making a tragic mistake, and refuse to be a part of it?

[jackolover]

As the ol' song goes "thy liberty in law". You can't have liberty or freedom's without the respect of law. It is the law that gives you all the freedoms you have and protects your liberty.

No, I think it is responsibility that allows you all the freedoms. The law can round you up, or put you on surveilance just because you are from a certain social group. Responsibility is the key.

Now I don't know when this idea of what Cap is thinking being the American Dream got started. The American Dream to the founders was one of that government by, for and of the people. Hell if there would have been real colonial participation in government we would probably still be speaking iwth an English accent today. The people decided this issue, that is what America is about.

Cap got the American Dream pretty early on in WW11. He started off as an assassin to counter enemy cells in USA, hunting and disposing of NAZI's. As this role wore on, and American propaganda about Cap became more and more patriotic, he began to believe in himself, and Captain America became a bigger thing than him (Steve Rogers). So I recon the American Dream sprung from the propaganda hype of those times during WW 11.

[XPac]

The most simplistic answer I can give is that neither Cap nor anyone else for that matter should be blindly loyal to either the government or the will of the people.

There are times the government is wrong. And there are times the will of the people, regardless of whether it's the majority or not, is wrong. The beauty of our constitution is that it limits the power of BOTH.

Captain America represents the highest ideals of the american people. Sometimes the government doesn't live up to those ideals, and sometimes even the majority of the people don't.

[jackolover]

So, the people are never wrong? It isn't possible that they are not very reasonable after big tragedies? Wouldn't a specialist in some area (let's say, superheroes) know what's best for the US and the world in that department than most people, who are not, and often don't have a clue? Wouldn't this specialist do whatever it takes to show the people they're making a tragic mistake, and refuse to be a part of it?

No. I agree with you. I'm just trying to get into Caps head and see how he thinks.

But you're very adament that superheros know best and know stuff better than the normals. It's a good point, but I guarentee you, you're going to get arguments on that point

[XPac]

I like this point. It makes you think that Cap is doing something over and above what the popular opinion is thinking = SHRA. It's like, Cap knows best, and the people don't know whats good for them.

Cap - Ah, the people are blind. I have to show them the right way of doing stuff. Besides, ordinary citizens don't know what it takes to be a superhero. I do. So, the best way to let people know, is to give them an image of me struggling against this abhorant SHRA.

Iron Man - Cap. You're so full of S**t.

The gods honest truth is that sometimes the people DON'T know what's best for them.

Our founding fathers new that, which is why we have republic rather than a true democracy. We elect people that make the decisions rather than making those decisions ourselves. That's why we have the electoral college when voting for the president... just in case. And that's why our higher courts are unelected people that are NOT accountable to the american public.

[Markavian]

The gods honest truth is that sometimes the people DON'T know what's best for them.

Our founding fathers new that, which is why we have republic rather than a true democracy. We elect people that make the decisions rather than making those decisions ourselves. That's why we have the electoral college when voting for the president... just in case. And that's why our higher courts are unelected people that are NOT accountable to the american public.

With all its Flaws over any other form of Man made Goverment thanks. And as For Cap knowing "Whats Best for the People" It sounds Closer to Big Brother or More akin to Victor Von Doom rather than the sentinel of Liberty to me :rolleyes: