Are Daredevill's villains too similar to Batman's villains?

[The Master Meglomaniac]

I have a question, are Are Daredevill's villains too similar to Batman's villains? On the surface one can argue that Owl, Jester and Mr. Fear are just the poor man's versions of Penguin, Joker and Scarecrow, but lets go deeper then that. The Batman villain Deadshot an assassin who can't miss was introduced 2 and half decades before Bullseye. Elektra plays the same girlfriend/anti hero role that Catwoman plays in the Batman universe.

You can also strech things things a bit and say that Mr. Hyde and Typhoid Mary borrow therir duality theme from Two-Face or that Gladiator is similar to Maxie Zeus, both are nuts who think they live in ancient times. Anyway I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but do you thing think DD's villains are too similar to Batman's villains? Why or why not? If they are too similar is there anyway to change them to make them diffrerent from batman's villains?

[protege]

In Gladiator's case, he showed up before Maxie Zeus, i believe...

[brundlefly]

Comics character concepts in different publishing companies are always going to borrow from similar themes. Both Marvel and DC have a Scarecrow, Cobra (or Kobra in DC's case), Grim Reaper etc, etc. The first three comparisons you make are pretty similarly themed, with the Batman villains being the more established characters and it being unfortunate for Daredevil that the ones perceived as knockoffs are all in his rogues gallery as opposed to being spread out among the Marvel Universe, making it seem like his rogues are just Batman-ripoffs. I don't see the Deadshot-Bullseye, Catwoman-Elektra direct connections so much compared to the first three (particularly with Catwoman and Elektra, who don't even share a profession) and the others are really stretching it. Might as well say that Vulture is a poor man's Penguin and Black Cat a poor man's Catwoman (hmmm, actually that one's kind of valid) and then say that some of Spidey's rogues are too similar to Batman's.

I don't think they need to worry too much about changing them to make them different. When was the last time Jester or Fear (the two glaring knockoffs of their more well-known DC counterparts) were even used as Daredevil villains? The others are established enough as characters in their own right that I don't think they suffer from "there's the Owl; god, what a Penguin ripoff he is" and such when they appear.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Comics character concepts in different publishing companies are always going to borrow from similar themes. Both Marvel and DC have a Scarecrow, Cobra (or Kobra in DC's case), Grim Reaper etc, etc. The first three comparisons you make are pretty similarly themed, with the Batman villains being the more established characters and it being unfortunate for Daredevil that the ones perceived as knockoffs are all in his rogues gallery as opposed to being spread out among the Marvel Universe, making it seem like his rogues are just Batman-ripoffs. I don't see the Deadshot-Bullseye, Catwoman-Elektra direct connections so much compared to the first three (particularly with Catwoman and Elektra, who don't even share a profession) and the others are really stretching it. Might as well say that Vulture is a poor man's Penguin and Black Cat a poor man's Catwoman (hmmm, actually that one's kind of valid) and then say that some of Spidey's rogues are too similar to Batman's.

I don't think they need to worry too much about changing them to make them different. When was the last time Jester or Fear (the two glaring knockoffs of their more well-known DC counterparts) were even used as Daredevil villains? The others are established enough as characters in their own right that I don't think they suffer from "there's the Owl; god, what a Penguin ripoff he is" and such when they appear.

To be fair I posted this question on another board and the reponse got made a very good case for Mr. Fear not being a Scarecrow rip off.

"I have a question, are Are Daredevill's villains too similar to Batman's villains? On the surface one can argue that Owl, Jester and Mr. Fear are just the poor man's versions of Penguin, Joker and Scarecrow, but lets go deeper then that.

The Owl, originally, is much more of a poor-man's Vulture than a poor man's Penguin. He's a flying villain who tries to beat people up, not a bird-themed posh.

The Scarecrow is an interesting case, too. He made two appearances in 1942-3, and then never appeared again until 1969. On top of that, he never used any fear gas in his original appearances. In the first Scarecrow story, he's simply a university professor who wears a costume while running a protection racket, and uses litrtle more than a gun to scare people into doing what he demands. In his second appearance, he doesn't use fear at all, instead committing crimes based on an old book of nursery rhymes.

The Scarecrow's fear gases, and his status as a regularly appearing villain, both postdate the introduction of Mr. Fear in 1965 by about 4 years. Prior to that, he was a relatively obscure 1940s character who hadn't been seen anywhere for about 25 years. Mr. Fear pretty much couldn't have been based on him as history stands.

> The Batman villain Deadshot an assassin who can't miss was introduced 2 and half decades before Bullseye.

As a rich guy in tux and tails pretending to be a superhero, whose only talent was circus-style trick shooting with revolvers. His reinvention as an assassin and a madman took place in 1976, at almost the exact same time Bullseye was introduced.

> Elektra plays the same girlfriend/anti hero role that Catwoman plays in the Batman universe.

With the exception that Elektra kills, and Catwoman was traditionally portrayed as a simple thief on the edge of reforming.

> You can also strech things things a bit and say that Mr. Hyde and Typhoid Mary borrow therir duality theme from Two-Face or that Gladiator is similar to Maxie Zeus, both are nuts who think they live in ancient times. Anyway I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but do you thing think DD's villains are too similar to Batman's villains? Why or why not? If they are too similar is there anyway to change them to make them diffrerent from batman's villains?

There are parallels to be drawn, for sure, but I think a lot of them creep in much later than the original appearances of the characters. The Owl, for example, really did eventually become a cheap Penguin knockoff, complete with silly bird-themed vehicles and devices, but that was in late-1970s issues of Daredevil and Marvel Team-Up. Originally, he flew around punching people.

The Jester was probably meant to be a Joker knock-off, but I think the fact that he's always focused more on media hoaxes than on the Joker's theme crimes or mass murders distinguishes him. It also helps that the Jester is usually protrayed as sane.

As to the duality theme...well, really, that's older than comics by far. The very first page of Two-Face's very first story, for instance, actually shows him reading Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

- Omar Karindu

[Haunt]

Batman doesn't have the Kingpin, though.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Batman doesn't have the Kingpin, though.

Of course Kingpin started as Spidey villain, not a DD one, is its hard to say he is an orginal DD villain.

[Haunt]

Off course Kingpin started as Spidey villain, not a DD one, is its hard to say he is an orginal DD villain.

i don't see "original" in the thread title. and when was the last time 616-Spider-man fought Kingpin?

[Xanrn]

Well besides from Ultimate Spiderman. Ages in Amazing Spiderman.

I would like to see a Spidey smackdown on that Tubby Bitch.

[brundlefly]

To be fair I posted this question on another board and the reponse got made a very good case for Mr. Fear not being a Scarecrow rip off.

He made a good case for Mister Fear using the fear gas first, which is their big similarity (and what I was basing my assessment of Fear as a Scarecrow knockoff on). That was a nice and well thought-out analysis.

[brundlefly]

I would like to see a Spidey smackdown on that Tubby Bitch.

I don't think it would be such a one-sided smackdown. They went mano-a-mano back in Spectacular Spider-Man #100 and the so-called "tubby bitch" gave back as good as he got from Spidey.

[Wild Card13]

First, Black Widow is a much closer analogue to Catwoman than Elektra is. Also, the closest analogue DC has to the Kingpin is Lex Luthor.

That said, I think one of the problems with Daredevil is his lack of a very strong rogues gallery. We can't deny some of his enemies are there, but a lot of stories just go back to Bullseye, Elektra, and the Kingpin. Some of his other villains (Leapfrog? Stilt-Man?) are just plain weird and don't really fit the darker direction Daredevil's been going in for a while now. I personally would love to see DD team up with Moon Knight and go up against an analogue of Ra's Al Ghul, but that's just me.

[Haunt]

First, Black Widow is a much closer analogue to Catwoman than Elektra is. Also, the closest analogue DC has to the Kingpin is Lex Luthor.

That said, I think one of the problems with Daredevil is his lack of a very strong rogues gallery. We can't deny some of his enemies are there, but a lot of stories just go back to Bullseye, Elektra, and the Kingpin. Some of his other villains (Leapfrog? Stilt-Man?) are just plain weird and don't really fit the darker direction Daredevil's been going in for a while now. I personally would love to see DD team up with Moon Knight and go up against an analogue of Ra's Al Ghul, but that's just me.

just my opinion but i think the only thing Lex and Fisk have in common is smooth domes. Rupert Thorne is probably more like Fisk, than lex.

[Magneto_X]

Bundlefly:

Mr.Fear was last seen in Joe Kelly's run on DD.

[Deadpooligan]

Bullseye is much more original with his powers than Deadshot though. He's easily more popular too.

I don't even see the spinoffage there really.

[the eternal]

there might be similarities if you look closer, but i think daredevils villians can stand for themselve. i think bullseye plays a much bigger role for DD as deadshot otherwise and so on...