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  1. #1
    BANNED Illidania's Avatar
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    Default Doomsday vs. Darkseid

    This is JLU versions of both fighters. They both seem almost like the same person. Neither can fly, both appear to be physicaly stronger than Superman. The only differences are that Darkseid has his omega beams and Doomsday can regenerate and his body evolves slightly after recovering from a disabling injury (like being labotamized). No ringouts, one on one, in the Khazan arena. Who would take it in the end?

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    Sorcerer Gorthaur's Avatar
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    Darkseid being the only one of the two who's actually beaten Superman several times, I tend to side with him. The Omega Beams alone should be enough to finish Doomsday, much less the Agony Matrix and such.

    With regard to pure, physical strength, the two are more evenly matched, but Darkseid has still dominated Superman in a far more humiliating fashion and made it look easy.
    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall
    set me free.

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    Darkseid being the only one of the two who's actually beaten Superman several times, I tend to side with him. The Omega Beams alone should be enough to finish Doomsday, much less the Agony Matrix and such.

    With regard to pure, physical strength, the two are more evenly matched, but Darkseid has still dominated Superman in a far more humiliating fashion and made it look easy.
    Except for when Supes beat Darkseid with his own Omega Beams by putting his hands over DS' eyes and blowing his face in, which put DS down for the count. And then later in Brainiacs asteroid where Supes knocked Darkseid down and was going to keep pounding on him had Batman not grabbed him and used a boomtube to get them out of there.

    Doomsdays first appearence had him solo'ing the Justice Lords and only got put down by labotamy, which won't work again. DD grabed Hawkgirl's mace while it was zapping the hell out of him, and slapped her away. And the Omega Beams worked best on low-metas. Hell Batman dodged the damn thing! And Supes could resist it, and Doomsday was taking everything the big 7 could throw at him and kept coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illidania
    Except for when Supes beat Darkseid with his own Omega Beams by putting his hands over DS' eyes and blowing his face in, which put DS down for the count.
    Up until which point, Kal's own attacks weren't doing much more than irritating Darkseid.
    And then later in Brainiacs asteroid where Supes knocked Darkseid down and was going to keep pounding on him had Batman not grabbed him and used a boomtube to get them out of there.
    After Darkseid had fought ten rounds against Orion, and even then he seemed to have a larger physical edge over Superman that Doomsday did - Clark never could afford to trade blows with Darkseid.

    And, of course, Darkseid as of his latest appearance is even stronger.
    Doomsdays first appearence had him solo'ing the Justice Lords and only got put down by labotamy, which won't work again.
    And in his second appearance, was not so far above Superman's strength level that the Man of Steel couldn't give him a good fight for a prolonged period of time. Clearly, his good showing against the Lords had as much to do with using the confusion to keep them from coordinating a joint attack on him as it did with power.
    And the Omega Beams worked best on low-metas. Hell Batman dodged the damn thing! And Supes could resist it, and Doomsday was taking everything the big 7 could throw at him and kept coming.
    The Omega Beams have put Superman down twice without Darkseid having to as much as lift a finger.
    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall
    set me free.

  5. #5
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    The Omega Beams have put Superman down twice without Darkseid having to as much as lift a finger.
    TAS Superman is much weaker than his JL and JLU self. And DS was putting effort into his beams to hurt supes and it only weakend Supes enough for Darkseid to leave. As of Destroyer Darkseid, he was supposedly stronger, but showed nothing aside from a few things in his suit that would suggest he was stronger. Considering that Supes whailed his sorry ass across Metropolis for one.

    Up until which point, Kal's own attacks weren't doing much more than irritating Darkseid.
    TAS Superman was weaker. JLU Superman is a lot tougher.

    After Darkseid had fought ten rounds against Orion, and even then he seemed to have a larger physical edge over Superman that Doomsday did - Clark never could afford to trade blows with Darkseid.
    Orion was knocked around like a child and had nothing on Darkseid And 10 rounds is an exageration. DS wouldn't have been weakened at all from fighting Orion unless you want to use the same argument for Superman that he was weakened from plowing through DS' forces and Kalibak to get to DS himself.

    Doomsday knocked around WW, Superman, GL, and MM by himself, and not because they weren't organized. It was simply because he was tougher than any of them. Supes and DD traded a blow which sent a shockwave across the area. Supes was down on his back, DD was still standing and striding towards him unphased. A similar punch was landed on Destroyer Darkseid by Supes, which created a shockwave, but had the added affect of sending DS flying across town.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY4R_...vs.%20Darkseid

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbagJ...vs.%20Darkseid
    Last edited by Illidania; 06-19-2006 at 11:34 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illidania
    TAS Superman is much weaker than his JL and JLU self.
    If anything, it took several seasons of Justice League for Superman's power level to return to how it was portrayed in STAS.
    And DS was putting effort into his beams to hurt supes and it only weakend Supes enough for Darkseid to leave.
    Bullshit. Superman was on his face in the soil, utterly and completely helpless.
    As of Destroyer Darkseid, he was supposedly stronger, but showed nothing aside from a few things in his suit that would suggest he was stronger. Considering that Supes whailed his sorry ass across Metropolis for one.
    And failed to hurt him. At all.
    TAS Superman was weaker. JLU Superman is a lot tougher.
    Prove it.
    Orion was knocked around like a child
    Bullshit. Orion and Darkseid fought their way halfway through Brainiac's asteroid, walls and all.
    and had nothing on Darkseid And 10 rounds is an exageration. DS wouldn't have been weakened at all from fighting Orion unless you want to use the same argument for Superman that he was weakened from plowing through DS' forces and Kalibak to get to DS himself.
    Even granting all that, Darkseid was still portrayed as the more powerful fighter, humiliating Superman in his usual fashion until Clark got a lucky shot in and half the corridor blew up on Darkseid.
    Doomsday knocked around WW, Superman, GL, and MM by himself, and not because they weren't organized. It was simply because he was tougher than any of them.
    Individually, sure. So is Darkseid.
    Supes and DD traded a blow which sent a shockwave across the area. Supes was down on his back, DD was still standing and striding towards him unphased. A similar punch was landed on Destroyer Darkseid by Supes, which created a shockwave, but had the added affect of sending DS flying across town.
    Which means absolutely nothing, except that Doomsday managed to brace himself better. None of these fighters weigh so much that a good punch by someone of comparable strength can't send them flying.
    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall
    set me free.

  7. #7
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    Bullshit. Superman was on his face in the soil, utterly and completely helpless.
    Not bullshit. Darkseid wasn't smiling, he was putting effort into his beams as Superman was pushing his way towards him.

    If anything, it took several seasons of Justice League for Superman's power level to return to how it was portrayed in STAS.
    TAS Supes got knocked around by weapons from a police helicoptor. He was pathetic in the TAS Series.

    And failed to hurt him. At all.
    Darkseid had trouble getting back up and had to resort to using the Agony Matrix to keep Supes from continuing to beat on him.

    Prove it.
    He got hurt by lasers in TAS. JL and JLU Supes walks through lasers. Supes had trouble pulling up a damaged helicoptor in TAS. JLU Supes was lifting several tons of equipment overhead without straining, saying "I could hold this up all day. Not that I'd want to."

    Bullshit. Orion and Darkseid fought their way halfway through Brainiac's asteroid, walls and all.
    And then Darkseid bearhugged him and put him down. Prior to that, Supes was being tortured to death by Brainiacs machines, drawing energy from him to gather knowledge from across the galaxy. Then had to go through Brainiac robots. So, saying that Darkseid was worse off after a little scuffle with Orion than Superman after being tortured?

    Even granting all that, Darkseid was still portrayed as the more powerful fighter, humiliating Superman in his usual fashion until Clark got a lucky shot in and half the corridor blew up on Darkseid.
    Lucky shots only count if it wasn't expected. Darkseid saw it coming, he just couldn't do anything about it. Hence the look on his face of "this is gonna hurt".

    Which means absolutely nothing, except that Doomsday managed to brace himself better. None of these fighters weigh so much that a good punch by someone of comparable strength can't send them flying.
    Doomsday didn't brace himself better. Supes flew at him, DD charged and they both hit at the same time. This was all after DD came down after planetfall, then proceeded to take on the Justice Lords. GL blasted him while Supes picked up a tank to bash DD with. DD just picked it back up and hurled it right back at them.

    Little music video on Doomsday -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Riic...%20%20Doomsday

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illidania
    Not bullshit. Darkseid wasn't smiling, he was putting effort into his beams as Superman was pushing his way towards him.
    Nice how you conveniently "forget" to mention how, immediately after that, Superman fell on his knees and then flat on his face. Sure, he really had Darkseid at his mercy, there.
    TAS Supes got knocked around by weapons from a police helicoptor. He was pathetic in the TAS Series.
    And JL Superman got knocked around by WW2-era weaponry. Both series portrayed his powers a bit inconsistently from time to time, but it isn't helping your credibility any to pick his absolute weakest TAS showings, contrast them to his best ones in JL(U) and claim he was weaker in his own series on average.
    Darkseid had trouble getting back up and had to resort to using the Agony Matrix to keep Supes from continuing to beat on him.
    Of course, the "trouble" and "had to" are entirely based on your subjective, if not biased, interpretation. The fact of the matter is that it wasn't Darkseid who was bloodied and battered by the end of the fight, and it wasn't Darkseid who had to be saved by Batman not once, not twice but thrice during the fight.
    He got hurt by lasers in TAS. JL and JLU Supes walks through lasers. Supes had trouble pulling up a damaged helicoptor in TAS. JLU Supes was lifting several tons of equipment overhead without straining, saying "I could hold this up all day. Not that I'd want to."
    Again, you're contrasting his weaker STAS showings against his stronger JL feats and falsely claiming that there's a trend where none exists. It's not flying.



    And then Darkseid bearhugged him and put him down. Prior to that, Supes was being tortured to death by Brainiacs machines, drawing energy from him to gather knowledge from across the galaxy. Then had to go through Brainiac robots. So, saying that Darkseid was worse off after a little scuffle with Orion than Superman after being tortured?
    Considering that Orion is a Superman-class being himself, it's not exactly a stretch.

    But hey, even granting that Superman beat Darkseid fair and square, that still leaves Darkseid with a better score against Clark than Doomsday.
    Lucky shots only count if it wasn't expected. Darkseid saw it coming, he just couldn't do anything about it. Hence the look on his face of "this is gonna hurt".
    Reduced to semantic quibbling so soon? Seeing the punch a split second before it connects hardly disqualifies it as a surprise.
    Doomsday didn't brace himself better.
    Of course he did, as that's the only explanation for him staying grounded. He weighs little, if at all, more than Darkseid.
    Supes flew at him, DD charged and they both hit at the same time. This was all after DD came down after planetfall, then proceeded to take on the Justice Lords. GL blasted him while Supes picked up a tank to bash DD with. DD just picked it back up and hurled it right back at them.
    Yes, I've seen the episode, and that's all very nice. It's also nothing that Darkseid shouldn't be well capable of, and the fact remains that Superman managed to beat Doomsday one on one. His latest fight against Darkseid, on the other hand, was a brutal and one -sided curbstomp that ended with Darkseid about to cut Kal El's heart out.
    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall
    set me free.

  9. #9
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    Of course, the "trouble" and "had to" are entirely based on your subjective, if not biased, interpretation. The fact of the matter is that it wasn't Darkseid who was bloodied and battered by the end of the fight, and it wasn't Darkseid who had to be saved by Batman not once, not twice but thrice during the fight.
    It's pretty sad really, that Darkseid was bothered at all by Batman. Batman who then proceeded to dodge Darkseid's omega beams.

    And JL Superman got knocked around by WW2-era weaponry.
    You mean the giant war-wheels that were made from specs from the future by that Immortal guy working with the Nazi's? Yeah, that's some real WW2 tech there.

    Again, you're contrasting his weaker STAS showings against his stronger JL feats and falsely claiming that there's a trend where none exists. It's not flying.
    Aside from smashing some of Darkseid's cruisers and fighting Metallo, Supes has no real high-end feats in his own series. It's already been agreed upon that Superman was stronger in the JL and JLU series than he was in his own TAS series.

    Considering that Orion is a Superman-class being himself, it's not exactly a stretch.
    Orion is not "superman class". Not everyone with super-strength is in Supes' class. Orion has never demonstrated any feats on Supes' level to even remotely suggest that he's as strong as Superman.

    Reduced to semantic quibbling so soon? Seeing the punch a split second before it connects hardly disqualifies it as a surprise.
    If you'd even watch the clips I provided, you'd see it was no surprise. Darkseid's shoulders were slumped, there was no guarding it. He knew it was coming, he just couldn't do anything about it. You'd also see Supes' heat-vision burning a hole through DS' foot, whereas the same HV only annoys Doomsday now, DD who was taking it to the face.

    Of course he did, as that's the only explanation for him staying grounded. He weighs little, if at all, more than Darkseid.
    That's only your interpretation, not what actualy happened. The shock from the blows alone would've knocked him down or at the very least several feat back. Supes was knocked a good 40ft across the ground. Doomsday was just seen, seconds after their hits against eachother, walking towards Superman, ranting, saying how that's not enough to beat him. I believe it was "You think that's enough to stop me!?"

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    FWIW, being "knocked around" by rocket launchers or machine guns isn't a sign of weakness, it's physics. Superman only weighs about as much as a normal human, maybe a little more; if he isn't using his strength/flight to power through the attack, he's definitely going to get knocked around.

    People with invulnerability comparable to TAS Superman were able to survive small nuke-level explosions - Bizarro took a half-kiloton explosion without his costume even being destroyed, and Parasite (running on about half of Superman's powers) took a multi-kiloton atomic explosion (focused by a mine shaft) to the face without suffering critical injuries.

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    FWIW, being "knocked around" by rocket launchers or machine guns isn't a sign of weakness, it's physics. Superman only weighs about as much as a normal human, maybe a little more; if he isn't using his strength/flight to power through the attack, he's definitely going to get knocked around.
    Real world physics play no part in fictional universes. And aside from that, Supes has taken laser fire and gunfire from multiple directions, and just stood there without flinching at all. One was within the Cadmus compound with Huntress standing behind him to keep from getting shot. Doomsday, when escaping from a Cadmus facility, was getting blasted by laser weapons and all he did was look in their direction without so much as blinking from it all.

    the fact remains that Superman managed to beat Doomsday one on one.
    Beat? No. Supes had to incapacitate him in order to stop him, but couldn't do it by himself. Considering that most of the fight was inside an unstable volcano, and that Supes needed that just to trap DD. After which, while the volcano was errupting, Supes dropped to his knees and passed out, leaving Wonder Woman to come in and carry him off before he got burried in magma.

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    well in jlu supes could hold a commerical airliner with one arm and with his cape over his head is a bigger strenght feat then anything shown in tas. but ill give it to darkseid. i mean doomsday couldnt even break out of that hardened rock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illidania
    It's pretty sad really, that Darkseid was bothered at all by Batman. Batman who then proceeded to dodge Darkseid's omega beams.
    It's entirely consistent with how superbeings have been portrayed over the course of the series: they may be extremely powerful, but not all that dense. Meaning that a strong human like Batman can get them off balance, as he has with Kalibak and, heck, Superman himself. He just can't hurt them.
    You mean the giant war-wheels that were made from specs from the future by that Immortal guy working with the Nazi's? Yeah, that's some real WW2 tech there.
    No, I meant WW2-era anti-aircraft weaponry, as one might have concluded from the fact that I specifically said I was talking about WW2 weaponry. If I had meant futuristic sci-fi technology, then that's what I would've said, now wouldn't I.

    Not that the War Wheels were all that advanced, anyway, either. From all indications, they just fired bigger shells than normal tanks.
    Aside from smashing some of Darkseid's cruisers and fighting Metallo, Supes has no real high-end feats in his own series. It's already been agreed upon that Superman was stronger in the JL and JLU series than he was in his own TAS series.
    Tearing gigantic chunks of bedrock off to seal a breach in a wall not good enough for you? Or stopping a hundred-ton crane in mid-fall? Or, however minutely, changing the course of an asteroid single-handedly?

    There's that selective memory of yours again.
    Orion is not "superman class". Not everyone with super-strength is in Supes' class. Orion has never demonstrated any feats on Supes' level to even remotely suggest that he's as strong as Superman.
    Orion saved Superman's life in his very first appearance, by taking out two hovertanks that were kicking Clark's behind. Heck, the fact that he punched Darkseid down and bloodied his nose with one strike in "Twilight" alone is enough proof that he's in Superman's overall strength class.
    If you'd even watch the clips I provided, you'd see it was no surprise.
    I've seen the episodes in question more times than you have, I'm sure.
    Darkseid's shoulders were slumped, there was no guarding it. He knew it was coming, he just couldn't do anything about it. You'd also see Supes' heat-vision burning a hole through DS' foot, whereas the same HV only annoys Doomsday now, DD who was taking it to the face.
    Eh. Funny you should mention that, because Darkseid's foot actually proved to be just as resistant to Superman's heat vision as Doomsday's huge, bony forehead initially did. Doesn't really work in your favor if you wan't to prove his overall superiority.
    That's only your interpretation, not what actualy happened.
    No, that's how these characters have always been portrayed. They do not weigh substantially more than their size implies, meaning that whether they're knocked back by each other's blows depends entirely on how they manage to brace themselves.

    Sure, Superman got one good hit on Darkseid. A hit that didn't even manage to scratch his armor. After, up until that point, getting savagely beaten down by Darkseid.
    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall
    set me free.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illidania
    Real world physics play no part in fictional universes.
    Of course they do. Fictional universes often choose to ignore or circumvent said physical laws in an internally consistent fashion, but that doesn't mean that you get to arbitrarily decide when they apply according to what best suits your argument.
    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall
    set me free.

  15. #15
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    There's that selective memory of yours again.
    You mean the one with the giant monster attached to hit who broke free and could absorb heat to power itself.

    It's entirely consistent with how superbeings have been portrayed over the course of the series: they may be extremely powerful, but not all that dense. Meaning that a strong human like Batman can get them off balance, as he has with Kalibak and, heck, Superman himself. He just can't hurt them.
    Batman jumping on Darkseid shouldn't even move him. Multiple gunfire has more force behind it than Batman jumping at you. Take the shade for instance nearly breaking his hand punching Superman's chest, and Shade was putting a good fight against Batman.

    Heck, the fact that he punched Darkseid down and bloodied his nose with one strike in "Twilight" alone is enough proof that he's in Superman's overall strength class.
    One instance does not change multiple other showings. And Orio did use his hover-craft to help save Supes from the hovertanks, and at best he whipped around one of the mech-tenticles. That was it. I had been watching every Jl and Superman: TAS episodes that had been coming on at 11 and 11:30.

    Eh. Funny you should mention that, because Darkseid's foot actually proved to be just as resistant to Superman's heat vision as Doomsday's huge, bony forehead initially did.
    Supes burned a hole through DS' foot. Supes barely singes DD's boney eyebrows now. That's DD's advantage, he evolves and gets stronger, and was putting Superman down with just a physical beating. Doomsday has no Omega Beams, special weapons, or anything save his own physical attributes. And that's been enough to bloody up Superman and beat him to the point where he passed out from further exerting himself.

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