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  1. #361
    Iīm Back! Again... Fenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bannermanonemillion View Post
    Damo, you are leagues ahead of me then.

    Exactly who is Diana?

    Can you sum her up in one sentence?

    Why exactly is she here?
    Wonder Woman Spirit of Truth by Paul Dini and Alex Ross, there you find answers to all your questions
    One sentence :D

  2. #362
    Senior Member Darth Joker's Avatar
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    Default What Hurts Wonder Woman.

    Wonder Woman is a character that intrigues me.

    She has a lot of things going for her.

    1. She's gorgeous.

    2. She has Superman-esque powers, but with no easily exploitable in-continuity weakness.

    3. Her character design, and outfit, is lovely and timeless.

    However, while she is one of DC's 'Big Three', she enjoys nowhere near the success, or the publicity, of the other two... the other two being Batman and Superman.

    The surest sign of this is in the number of Batman and Superman movies and video games vs. the number of WW movies and video games.

    I'd love for Wonder Woman to become a stronger force in the DCU, and to become a more popular character overall.

    In my opinion, the following hurts Wonder Woman...

    She herself is surprisingly not all that well fleshed out as a character. What we conclussively know about post-crisis Wonder Woman can probably be summed up in a paragraph, or two. We know that she worships the ancient Greco-Roman gods. We know that she is an accomplished amazonian warrior, and is by a considerable margin the most willing to use lethal force against villians of DC's big three (with Superman greatly against it, and Batman also against it to the degree that Joker is still alive). We know that she's generally a nice person, though somewhat an archetype character. A listing of her powers, and supporting cast and rogues gallery aside, that's all we know about her.

    Her sexuality is completely up in the air. She could concievably be a virgin. She could be a lesbian like most of her fellow Paradise Island amazons. She may have had sex with a man 'off-camera'. She could be bi-sexual. We honestly have little to no idea.

    Compare that to Batman and Superman. We know that Batman's been with Catwoman, and Ra's daughter, if nothing else. We know that Superman's been with Lois, of course.

    The lack of a lasting, serious, reasonably well-known, romantic interest for Diana hurts the character a bit, I think, as well as her popularity. It's not that there's anything wrong with being signle, it's just that the presence of an established long-standing romantic interest adds a nice edge to the character's comics that can be otherwise lacking (i.e. watching the romance unfold, and endure - or perhaps fail ? - through various conflicts and trials).

    Look at all of the other most popular heroes and heroines in DC and Marvel. They *all* have recognized romantic interests - along with Batman and Superman, there is Spiderman and MJ, Reed and Sue, Cyclops and Jean Grey... heck, even Daredevil and Elektra.

    I think that Diana needs to be fleshed out a bit more here. I think that she could use a romantic interest (Steve Trevor doesn't really count for the current incarnation of WW).

    Secondly, Diana lacks both that classic villain like Luthor and the Joker, and also that good physical opponent like Zod and Bane. Superman, and Batman, have both.

    Circe is a good villain, but she's a magic-user, not a punch-out-their-lights type. Nor does she enjoy the (in)famous stature of a Luthor or Joker.

    Darkseid was a good WW villain, but he's more JL/Superman material now than a WW villain.

    Wonder Woman needs that Zod-type to give us good fights, and a classic long-standing archenemy like a Luthor or a Joker.

    In fact, if DC wanted to create a brand new villain, and propel him or her to instant stardom within the DCU... just make a good new arch-nemisis for Wonder Woman. There would be your new star character.

    Diana also needs a tighter supporting cast. She needs people with names that stick out... like "Perry White", and "Commissioner Gordon".

    So... what do you guys and gals all think?

    What can be done to make Wonder Woman a more popular character?

    Indeed, just who IS Wonder Woman?
    Last edited by Darth Joker; 02-18-2007 at 09:42 PM.

  3. #363
    Senior Member PretenderNX01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenix View Post
    Wonder Woman Spirit of Truth by Paul Dini and Alex Ross, there you find answers to all your questions
    One sentence :D
    As I recall Dini has Diana out of costume alot and learning from humanity by living as a human. Damo forbid we should include that in a Wonder Woman comic- oh wait thats the direction they're going now ;)

    Secondly, Diana lacks both that classic villain like Luthor and the Joker, and also that good physical opponent like Zod and Bane. Superman, and Batman, have both.
    The only villain that comes to my mind is Cheetah, mainly because of the Superfriends show, but I noticed that the sort-of-Wonder Woman, She-Ra, has a feline villain in Catra. Maybe they were on to something.

    Now of course which Cheetah to use- mutated cat woman or the lady in a cheetah costume. And what should be her story? Why does she hate Wonder Woman?

  4. #364
    They call me Mr. Pip! the4thpip's Avatar
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    Chocolate.



    And no, that was not a Trevor Barnes joke.
    My blog.

    We struggled against apartheid in South Africa, supported by people the world over, because black people were being blamed and made to suffer for something we could do nothing about; our very skins. It is the same with sexual orientation. It is a given.
    - Desmond Tutu

    Getting married? Check http://www.fandgweddings.com/

  5. #365
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PretenderNX01 View Post
    As I recall Dini has Diana out of costume alot and learning from humanity by living as a human. Damo forbid we should include that in a Wonder Woman comic- oh wait thats the direction they're going now?
    No, that's the direction they ditched after Infinite crisis.
    The current direction has a Wonder Woman who doen't even have a costume (or a brain, powers, willpower... for that matter), and doesn't seem to even exist apart from her government job.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  6. #366
    Somewhat Wondie-obsessed CarolStrick's Avatar
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    The modern WW in one sentence? DC has no clue (obviously), but here's my take:

    Wonder Woman is the princess of an ancient, peaceful, techno-magick Amazon nation who epitomizes the search for positive empowerment in both herself, others and the world by striving to help in whatever ways she can.

  7. #367
    Iīm Back! Again... Fenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    No, that's the direction they ditched after Infinite crisis.
    The current direction has a Wonder Woman who doen't even have a costume (or a brain, powers, willpower... for that matter), and doesn't seem to even exist apart from her government job.
    Thank YOU. As I see it, the alter ego is not the problem, the problem is to set that as part of a lie to conceal her entire life/purpose drive.

    Quote Originally Posted by CarolStrick View Post
    The modern WW in one sentence? DC has no clue (obviously), but here's my take:

    Wonder Woman is the princess of an ancient, peaceful, techno-magick Amazon nation who epitomizes the search for positive empowerment in both herself, others and the world by striving to help in whatever ways she can.
    Beautifully expressed.

    Darth Joker
    In my opinion, the following hurts Wonder Woman...

    Her sexuality is completely up in the air. She could concievably be a virgin. She could be a lesbian like most of her fellow Paradise Island amazons. She may have had sex with a man 'off-camera'. She could be bi-sexual. We honestly have little to no idea.
    See, that´s the kind of reasoning that hurts the character in your mind.
    (Please don´t get me wrong, I don´t want to be offensive. I´m just using your reasoning to state my opinion.)
    With that type of reasoning, Superman could be cheating Lois off-camera, and Batman could be gay. See the problem here, right?
    I tend to believe that "truth/cannon" is what we see on screen.
    She could be "everything" is you think of it, but if you stick to what you know-not what you want her to be-she could be only one thing.

    Superman cheating Lois is stupid because:
    a.Never mention even as a possibility
    b.Against his characterization
    c.Never show, not even a hint, in 60 years of Superman history.
    d.We see how much He loves her everytime no matter what.
    The same method of reasoning could be applied to WW.

    Show me proof that she is NOT straight.:)


    The lack of a lasting, serious, reasonably well-known, romantic interest for Diana hurts the character a bit, I think, as well as her popularity. It's not that there's anything wrong with being signle, it's just that the presence of an established long-standing romantic interest adds a nice edge to the character's comics that can be otherwise lacking (i.e. watching the romance unfold, and endure - or perhaps fail ? - through various conflicts and trials
    Relationships always work good and fuels the drama, but only if it serves the character and if it is well pace. Doing it just for the sake of it, ruins everything. Phil Jimenez attempt was horrible, rushed, out of the blue, and unfortunately one thing that was utterly stupid. Introduce a character in order to make her loose her virginity is a dumb idea, and doomed from its very begging.

    Look at all of the other most popular heroes and heroines in DC and Marvel. They *all* have recognized romantic interests - along with Batman and Superman, there is Spiderman and MJ, Reed and Sue, Cyclops and Jean Grey... heck, even Daredevil and Elektra.
    Excellent point.
    Those characters were around for how long before becoming a romantic interest? besides, they were characters to begin with, not just "extras" with dialogs :p

    I think that Diana needs to be fleshed out a bit more here. I think that she could use a romantic interest (Steve Trevor doesn't really count for the current incarnation of WW).
    Agreed, but only in the right, thoughtfully and well pace manner.

    Secondly, Diana lacks both that classic villain like Luthor and the Joker, and also that good physical opponent like Zod and Bane. Superman, and Batman, have both.
    Really? what about the Greek Gods? Is there anything more classic than that?
    Physical opponents? Demons, Gods, nuts, Cheetah, Circe, Dr. Psycho, Giganta, The man´s world, even her peers, etc...
    Circe is a good villain, but she's a magic-user, not a punch-out-their-lights type. Nor does she enjoy the (in)famous stature of a Luthor or Joker.
    That´s basically because those are well known by you or anyone who follows Batman or Superman.
    As you said, WW is a complex character very difficult to grab for the majority of comic readers.

    Darkseid was a good WW villain, but he's more JL/Superman material now than a WW villain.
    There´s plenty of Darkseid for everyone:p

    Wonder Woman needs that Zod-type to give us good fights, and a classic long-standing archenemy like a Luthor or a Joker.
    Rucka tried that with Veronica Cale and a lot of fans said they don´t want to see another Luthor... food for thought eh?

    Diana also needs a tighter supporting cast. She needs people with names that stick out... like "Perry White", and "Commissioner Gordon".
    Agreed.
    She needs to be written with some extra consistency on some areas, just to patch rough things up.
    Last edited by Fenix; 02-19-2007 at 10:01 AM.

  8. #368
    Mad Scientist Damo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PretenderNX01 View Post
    As I recall Dini has Diana out of costume alot and learning from humanity by living as a human. Damo forbid we should include that in a Wonder Woman comic-
    Damo would love to have her out of costume on a regular basis, talking to others, sharing thoughts. But not lying and pretending to be something she's not. I loved seeing her in jeans and a shirt talking about her day, and actually having the conversation be about her day not a tissue of lies meant to keep people from knowing who she is. Superman and Batman were raised to be "Clark Kent" and "Bruce Wayne". Wonder Woman was raised to be Princess Diana. however much truth there may or may not be in "Bruce Wayne" and "Clark Kent", "Diana Prince" is nothing more than an invention, a lie.

    I'd give a shot at summing her up in a sentence, but Carol did a wonderful job.


    As for villains?

    Luthor? Circe.
    Joker? Dr. Psycho.
    Darkseid? Ares.

  9. #369
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    So... nobody caught her blink-and-you'll-miss-it appearance in this week's '52'?
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  10. #370

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    Quote Originally Posted by PretenderNX01 View Post
    As I recall Dini has Diana out of costume alot and learning from humanity by living as a human. Damo forbid we should include that in a Wonder Woman comic- oh wait thats the direction they're going now ;)
    Now I read SOT, and I loved it. I loved the ending that showed her stepping out of a phone booth, with shades, black clothes, looking up into the sky and NOT flying off (take that Neo!) but instead walking into the crowd.

    I also enjoyed seeing her using a number of civilian guises like a member of the bombsquad who has to defuse a land mine, carefully as opposed to simply smacking it as Wonder Woman.

    If SOT was in-continuity, we probably wouldn't have all these "Who I Wonder Woman" discussions.
    In Christ and Insane :D

    blog gone. long story.

  11. #371
    Senior Member Darth Joker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenix View Post
    See, thatīs the kind of reasoning that hurts the character in your mind.
    (Please donīt get me wrong, I donīt want to be offensive. Iīm just using your reasoning to state my opinion.)
    With that type of reasoning, Superman could be cheating Lois off-camera, and Batman could be gay. See the problem here, right?
    Superman's loyalty to Lois is surpassed only by Superman's fear of killing people.

    In other words, it's beyond question. ;)

    Batman's actually been with some women before, so that probably rules him out as gay.

    Diana, OTOH, ...

    I tend to believe that "truth/cannon" is what we see on screen. She could be "everything" is you think of it, but if you stick to what you know-not what you want her to be-she could be only one thing.

    Superman cheating Lois is stupid because:
    a.Never mention even as a possibility
    b.Against his characterization
    c.Never show, not even a hint, in 60 years of Superman history.
    d.We see how much He loves her everytime no matter what.
    The same method of reasoning could be applied to WW.

    Show me proof that she is NOT straight.:)
    During the War of the Gods storyline in DC back in the late 80s/early 90s (yes, my mind is a bit foggy on it), there were a lot of scenes of Diana hanging out with her fellow amazons, and there was some... sexual tension there, in my view.

    Ambiguous, of course, but there.

    I mean, if you don't like to think of Diana that way, fine... but wouldn't it be better if her sexuality was firmly rooted by in-canon examples of a serious romance?

    Relationships always work good and fuels the drama, but only if it serves the character and if it is well pace. Doing it just for the sake of it, ruins everything. Phil Jimenez attempt was horrible, rushed, out of the blue, and unfortunately one thing that was utterly stupid. Introduce a character in order to make her loose her virginity is a dumb idea, and doomed from its very begging.
    I sometimes think that Wonder Woman is hurt by the fact that she's a gorgeous, 30-plus year old female virgin. In a lot of people's eyes... that's just weird. It would be different if she was a nun like how Nightcrawler of the X-Men was a Priest... but she's not; she's pagan/wiccan.

    So... since she's gorgeous, athletic, fit, had brief flings with Superman and Batman (but no more than that in regular continuity), and no longstanding male-female romance... many might think she's lesbian.

    Which I actually wouldn't have a problem with, especially since she grew up on an Island of largely lesbian amazons.

    It's the ambiguity I don't like. If Wonder Woman is a proud, out-and-out virgin... that brings in certain fans. If she's a proud, out-and-out lesbian... THAT brings in certain fans. If she's in a solid straight relationship... that brings out certain fans.

    As is? The ambiguity just makes her seem a bit weird, and perhaps hard for female fans of her to relate to her, I'm afraid.

    Excellent point.
    Those characters were around for how long before becoming a romantic interest? besides, they were characters to begin with, not just "extras" with dialogs :p

    Agreed, but only in the right, thoughtfully and well pace manner.

    Really? what about the Greek Gods? Is there anything more classic than that?
    Physical opponents? Demons, Gods, nuts, Cheetah, Circe, Dr. Psycho, Giganta, The manīs world, even her peers, etc...
    Thatīs basically because those are well known by you or anyone who follows Batman or Superman.
    Circe is cool.

    Dr. Psycho had his moments.

    Giganta's Ok.

    Cheetah consistently seems out of her league to me, though.

    Well, I'll say this - her rogues' gallery is better than Flash's, and better than most DCU heroes. As one of the big three, though...

    As you said, WW is a complex character very difficult to grab for the majority of comic readers.

    Thereīs plenty of Darkseid for everyone
    LOL :D

    Rucka tried that with Veronica Cale and a lot of fans said they donīt want to see another Luthor... food for thought eh?


    Agreed.
    She needs to be written with some extra consistency on some areas, just to patch rough things up.
    Well, I'm glad that we agree on this last point, anyway.

  12. #372
    Iīm Back! Again... Fenix's Avatar
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    Darth Joker
    Ambiguous, of course, but there.
    I mean, if you don't like to think of Diana that way, fine... but wouldn't it be better if her sexuality was firmly rooted by in-canon examples of a serious romance?
    It depends on how they´ll do it as I tell you before. One could say that Phil Jimenez was aiming to do that. Result, again for most comic readers is: vague or an utter fail. It´s interesting how, an apparent subtext is more convincing than the image itself within certain context.
    But the key question would be:
    It would be better if DC set this up once and for all?
    Aside from my personal opinion that I stated above, the evidence turns out to answer that question with a very straight: NO.
    See how much interest and devotion brings, publicity and as you said:
    If Wonder Woman is a proud, out-and-out virgin... that brings in certain fans. If she's a proud, out-and-out lesbian... THAT brings in certain fans. If she's in a solid straight relationship... that brings out certain fans.
    and yes, if you´re ambiguous... you brings out all types it seems.
    I Know gay fans and straight fans love her character equally, and from the other thread in this forum about her sexuality, it could also be estated, judging only by it, that WW could be a hit :)
    Paul Newell
    Congratulations! I have now merged the 20th thread, pondering Wonder Woman's sexuality/virginity/love life, into this megathread.
    It is now, officially, the most dreamed about topic on the DC Boards.
    I sometimes think that Wonder Woman is hurt by the fact that she's a gorgeous, 30-plus year old female virgin. In a lot of people's eyes... that's just weird. It would be different if she was a nun like how Nightcrawler of the X-Men was a Priest... but she's not; she's pagan/wiccan.
    Weird? Yes. But under concepts like majority=Normal, Minority=Different, One=Weird (general cultural parameters) In other times, it could be weird what you call today "normal".
    Anyway, to me, she´s unique. I´m not afraid of unique. In fact, if she were a real person, I would find her awesomely interesting.

    It's the ambiguity I don't like.
    I understand completely. But you know what? Let´s imagine DC says she is lesbian. Do you think that her book will be an instant hit? I seriously doubt that.
    She will still have the same problems if not, even more.
    I could see her completely establish, married for example, but do you think comic fans would like that?
    I´m tired of reading things like Lois should die, Pete should leave MJ, and all that kind of things. Just imagine what it would be like...sometimes I think DC is doing a great job :p

    WW is a very difficult character to grab and basically that is because she´s very difficult to relate with, everything that sides with the word perfection and truth is difficult to relate with, imagine a gorgeous woman 30+ virgin with a truth lasso who fires every inner physique phantom and desire... wohhh. I better shut up now. ;)
    Last edited by Fenix; 02-21-2007 at 05:46 PM.

  13. #373
    Tantu Terrific! Stanlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradpinder View Post
    Could she always fly?
    No, she did not fly straightaway.

    Her first flight was during a Marston issue where Steve is about to discover her identity. Later she flies in outer space during a Space Pterodactyl story. Finally in the 50s and 60s she is regularly doing it and they give the explanation of "gliding on wind currents" though clearly more would be assumed to be at work. Finally in 86 relaunch, they got off the pot and she flies.

  14. #374
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    So she did start flying during the Marston run, it wasnīt something later writers added to the character.

  15. #375
    Tantu Terrific! Stanlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliseu Gouveia View Post
    So she did start flying during the Marston run, it wasn´t something later writers added to the character.
    So far I only have counted two instances during his. One was on the planet and the other was in outer space (where, of course, there are no winds).

    He also had her leaping from planet to planet, sometimes with a . . . "Space Kanga". All the outerspace stuff seemed to feature a bubble helmet for breathing but no other protections were needed (which of course kind of strains the whole "all powers from Amazon Concentration" business).

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