Who Are The Best Fighters In The MU?

[Darkoth]

My list, with asterisks (*) noting those who may have minor superhuman abilities enhancing their fight skills:

1 Mantis. There is no other answer possible, if we are excluding weapons and super-powers. Mantis took out Thor with a single punch to a pressure point. Let me know when somebody else without powers has ever one-punched Thor.

2 Shang-Chi. The master of kung fu of the Marvel Universe. He is constantly training and striving to improve his abilities, and he has overcome amazing odds with nothing but his own natural abilities.

3 Iron Fist*. Even Spider-man has been dazzled by his speed, and he spent most of his youth training in a lost city of martial artists. Once, he deflected an veritable cloud of flechettes fired at him by Stilleto, individually deflecting each one before it could strike him.

4 Captain America*. Take away his shield, and Cap is still a fighter to be reckoned with. People keep mentioning his loss to T'chaka, overlooking that Cap was still a rookie at that point, while T'Chaka was probably at the peak of his abilities. Cap has also been shown time and again to be the premier tactician of the Marvel Universe. He wins against overwhelming odds because he is good enough to delay the outcome until he can locate a weakness or opening that can turn the battle.

5 Daredevil*. Even without his heightened senses, Daredevil is trained in multiple forms of combat, including boxing and several martial arts. He has the acrobatic ability of an olympic gymnast, and the experience and maturity to outwit a more impulsive opponent.

6 Erik Killmonger*. He has beaten the Black Panther, twice. And these were very solid victories, without any cheating or extenuating circumstances. And this guy is just physically bigger than nearly every other unenhanced human in the Marvel Universe, with the exception of Kingpin. And Erik has considerable reach compared to Kingpin.

7 Black Panther*. He is the smartest guy on my list, no question. But T'challa is more of a strategist than a tactician, meaning that he often sets up battles to his advantage before they even start. When he is caught off-guard, T'challa has been less able to adapt than others on this list. He and Killmonger, like Daredevil and Cap, may be unfairly enhanced by artificial means compared to others on this list.

8 Black Widow. The Widow is deadly, trained in martial arts and assassination techniques. She is an olympic quality gymnast, and has taken down many metahumans with well-placed blows to pressure points.

9 Nick Fury. The other top super-spy of the Marvel Universe, Nick is also one of the most experienced on this list. He has fought in several wars and endless special ops missions. He often throws himself recklessly into danger and then wildly improvises in the moment to devastating effect. Plus, he usually knows a lot about his opponents.

10 Doc Savage. Doc is technically part of the Marvel Universe, having guest-starred in Marvel Two-in-One in a time travel story. Marvel would use him more often if not for the licensing hassles, similar to the ones entangling Shang-Chi. Anyway, Doc is almost as big as Killmonger, a master of boxing, wrestling, martial arts and acrobatics. On top of that, he is a highly trained surgeon, giving him unusual knowledge of human anatomy for a fighter. Doc has taken down many opponents with clever strikes to pressure points, and is a real brute at wrestling, where his strength, size, flexibility and medical knowledge are overwhelming. And realistically, most fights end up on the ground quickly anyway.

Why I left others off the list: Taskmaster, Wolverine, Karnak, etc. are all too dependent on their weapons and/or super-powers to hang in a straight fight with the people on my list. I believe Gamora is also physically enhanced, with strength close to Spider-man's.

This is a pretty good list,not too far off from my own.I myself don't know enough about Mantis to rank her #1,but I just can't buy nerve punching the Thunder God as a legitimate feat,even though it happened.I rank Gamorra third,I am partial to the character but I do think she deserves the spot.We really don't know what lengths Thanos went to have her trained to be the deadliest woman in the galaxy,but we must assume it would have been quite severe.I wouldn't rank Fury quite so high,and I'm not sure about Doc Savage and Black Widow being top ten.Speaking of wrestling,how do you think Hercules would fair against Savage?When it comes to grappling,I don't think anyone could beat the son of Zeus.

[Izsak Loudon]

Issac's post are too long they the baby Doraemon dance :(

I have no idea what that means, but okay? Heh.

Of course, my first post was short... it's only when I have to explain myself do I go into length? :D

And it's like: why do people disagree with me, you know you're not going to win -- and I'll just quit first before I let that happen? And everyone knows I'm right anyway, so... ? Heh.

(And that was a joke.)

Anyway...

7 Black Panther*. He is the smartest guy on my list, no question. But T'challa is more of a strategist than a tactician, meaning that he often sets up battles to his advantage before they even start. When he is caught off-guard, T'challa has been less able to adapt than others on this list. He and Killmonger, like Daredevil and Cap, may be unfairly enhanced by artificial means compared to others on this list.

Ah... okay, I can understand that. So... if he has time to prepare, he's all-but unstoppable? Right? Contingency plans for Galactus and everything...

Heh. And yeah, I guess if Crash-Man wants to go with those as...

Iszak, those "plans for Galactus" don't mean "plans to beat Galactus". It could easily be a contingency plan to evacuate Wakanda if and when Galactus finally decides to eat Earth.

...yeah, if he wants to belittle his own man, Christopher Priest, and say, "Yeah, those could easily be a contingency plan to evacuate Wakanda if and when Galactus finally decides to eat Earth?"

Heh. If he wants to go with that, fine, whatever...

Either way, I'm changing what I said: in that, no, these are not just "plans." No, I say that these are contingency plans to take down Galactus if he attacks! To take him out -- because Wakandans don't run from a fight.

So that's what does contingency plans are for: to defeat Galactus, to take him out.

So, with that established; per Christopher Priest's run... with prep time, if he prepares, then the Black Panther is almost unstoppable.

Any disagreements from anyone on that?

If no, then... with prep time, the Black Panther beats anybody and everybody.

Of course, and like Shellhead said: just going about it in an uncivilized manner though, the Black Panther might have problems -- maybe?

But if he has time to think about it, and plan and set up his strategy, because "T'challa is more of a strategist than a tactician, meaning that he often sets up battles to his advantage before they even start"... then, from Galactus on down, you're in trouble -- because he's a thinking man.

He doesn't do "street fights," he's above all of that. That's crude and uncouth, and lacking refinement and cultivation, and unworthy of someone of his stature. That's beneath him -- that's for people who can't do any better. So he probably wouldn't even waste his time in something like this?

Like Christopher Priest said...

Black Panther has nothing to prove to anybody. He's a king and an inventor and a scientist. A scholar, a brilliant detective.

Yeah, he's above this.

So yeah, a street thug might get lucky against him, but it's not like it really matters. He's a king with his own country and has bigger things to be concerned about... and he's got "contingency plans for Galactus."

Heh. Okay, yeah... I can live with that. :D

That works for me.

[XPac]

So, with that established; per Christopher Priest's run... with prep time, if he prepares, then the Black Panther is almost unstoppable.

Any disagreements from anyone on that?

If no, then... with prep time, the Black Panther beats anybody and everybody.

Well, that remains to be seen.

Having a contingency plan against Galactus is one thing. Whether or not a continency plan would actually work against Galactus is quite another.

[benbrass00]

I would love to see Galactus in a Kung Fu position... :D

[Izsak Loudon]

Well, that remains to be seen.

Having a contingency plan against Galactus is one thing. Whether or not a continency plan would actually work against Galactus is quite another.

Ha!

Anything, huh?

We just cannot allow the Black Panther to win: "Well, yeah... he might have plans for Galactus, but they probably won't work. 'That remains to be seen... '"

Heh. Anything, huh? :D

Anyway, like I say, it doesn't matter. Whomever can beat him up, it doesn't matter.

He's the king; with his own country -- which is one of the most, if not the most technologically advanced (on Earth) in the Marvel Universe. And he's got Storm. And he's rich. And he's smart as hell.

So does anything else really matter? :D

And he can just get his Dora Milaje to fight whatever little trivial matter that he doesn't care to involve himself in, such as this scenario...

And to use just the quote that I want from the "Fantastic Four" #52 synopsis (since that's what we're doing here: picking and choosing what we want): "The fight is over. The Panther has won!"

Yes... it's good to be king. Ha!

[Expletive Deleted]

Y'know, fighting over who gets the last word gets kind of annoying after a while.

Move on, folks.

[XPac]

Ha!

Anything, huh?

We just cannot allow the Black Panther to win: "Well, yeah... he might have plans for Galactus, but they probably won't work. 'That remains to be seen... '"

Well, I'll just say that in almost any scenario I can think of where it's Black Panther against Galactus, my money would be on Galactus. If you interpret that as any sort of knock against Panther, don't... it's simply what I personally interpret as an accurate comparrison between what Panther is capable of and what Galactus is capable of.

Entire alien civiliazation have prepped themselves against the coming of Galactus and failed. I frankly think you're marking out a bit TOO MUCH for the Panther if you honestly believe that Panther is a lock against Galactus. Panther vs Captain America is one thing... moving the discussion to Panther vs Galactus is on a whole other level.

[Expletive Deleted]

I'll clarify.

Those who want to discuss Black Panther vs. Galactus, a character's specific combat feats, or the merits of the Hudlin's series, find somewhere else to do so.

The Rumbles board would be appropriate for the former two topics and any of the many pre-existing Hudlin threads would be appropriate for the latter.

Thanks.

[Will.S]

I never said Wolverine did not know how to fight, just that he wouldn't be at master level, top tier, etc., etc. His mind-set isn't perfect for it, and his drive isn't anywhere near that of the top-tier fighters. The Japanese styles are the only martial arts he would be that good with.

I think he's very well versed in Boxing, Jujitsu, Kenjutsu, Aikido, Ninjutsu and some southern style Kung Fu since he's shown to have discipline in all of those styles and has visited many places in the far east/Orient that teach those skills. I think those fighting styles when combined are sufficient enough to make Logan a very well balanced fighter.

And also they lend themselves VERY well to his body and his claws. Although like you said, it's arguable wether it would make him the very best since some disciplines work better for others and one style of fighting never guarantees victory.

Like I said above, I gave no indication that he cannot fight whatsoever. He can. Just not "Top 10" well. The thing about evolution is that you evolve what you need, right? If his healing is so great, then he wouldn't be as driven to learn the best martial arts or to be the best he can fight-wise. And he only recently mastered the rage. Throughout his history, he would have had a difficult time in training keeping those claws in, if he trained in full-contact combat. At heart, he is an animal, not a cold,calculating strategist. And I don't mean strategist as in "hunter," because he is most definitely a hunter. I'm talking about something more than that. The appeal of the character is that he is a man fighting his animal side. That doesn't sound like a "best-in-the-world" martial arts mindset to me. Short-tempered people just won't be that good, no matter how talented they are.

I don't think he's an animal at heart, it's a defense mechanism that has been built upon over the years of torment and tragedy. He often basks in the simplicity of animal life (running with packs of wolves and hunting in the wilderness) which contributes ALOT towards his berserker rages since that animal mentality tends to seep in many times during anger or frustration.

It's not always a disadvantage though, when he fought Mr. X, the animal instincts inside of him made it harder for X (who is basically cheating with his telepathy) to detect his moves and makes Logan FAR more dangerous even if much more wreckless. It's an interesting conflict regarding whatever fighting style he has learned and it definitely impedes on his fighting ability more often than not.

As I've said before, he knows how to fight, he's trained how to fight. Pretty damn well, I might add. But, he's not in the top ten fighters in comic books.
And, if you count minor characters, I don't even think he'd be in the Top 20.
I also find it funny that, for decades, he's been written as a berserker with government and samurai training. Then, some idiot in the 90's retroactively gave him more fighting skills. All of a sudden he's using techniques that he's never used before in comics past? Combat techniques, at least for a master-level fighter, are instinctually, physically programmed. Although it's fictional, Jason Bourne was a perfect example of this. If you've trained hard enough, then memory will not affect your ability to defend yourself. [As an aside, amnesia doesn't even affect people like this, anyway].

He'd need an impetus to push himself to be the best, to actually be among the best. And, the way I see it, he isn't. Because his powers and mind-set preclude this.

Heh which "idiot" are you referring to that gave him more fighting skills and what issues in particular did it show Wolverine showing techniques he's never used before?

I agree with your assessment in that he needs to push himself to be the best and comes up short alot because of his powers and psychological profile but even still I would definitely put him in the top 10. He's trained various X-Men and both Storm & Kitty to become formidable fighters as well as the Academy X kids so that has to account for a good deal of retained fighting ability.

But he has other things going for him that more than make up it. YOu know, like surviving a one-on-one fight with the Hulk. Although, I stand by what I said regarding that. I've see it mentioned many times that the reason Wolverine cannot penetrate Green Hulk's hide (along with the skin, Hulk has regenerating abilities that surpass even Wolverine's) is that he is not strong enough. So the Death incarnation MUST have been stronger than Wolverine as he usually is.

Wether Wolverine was physically stronger at the time of his role of Death is hard to say. He was shown to rip doors apart with the sword Apocalypse gave him in Astonishing X-Men as well as being able to gouge the sword into Hulk's back so it could have to do with the the sword's properties.

I'm not so sure if Hulk's regenerative abilities are that much more better than Wolverine's either unless you can show me an example of superior healing. Both have survived insane burns throughout their bodies as well as various lacerations and so forth. The only advantage I could see Hulk having is that when he turns back to Bruce and back to Hulk again his wounds would heal instantly and maybe vice versa.

I can see that your favorite character is Wolverine. I doubt anything I just said will convince you to see things from my perspective. Lord knows everyone and his mama have tried to do that with me and Batman, but I still think he's the best with the exception of the specialists (Shang-Chi, Iron Fist, Dragon, B. Tiger, etc.). Oh, and those cosmic chicks everyone in this thread are talking about. They are better HTH combatants, too.
If you've seen what I've said on some of the other threads, you can tell I don't like Wolverine. Hell, I hate him as if he were not a fictional character, as if he was real. That's how much I dislike the character. And that's only because of Marvel's hard-on for making him the best (due to his popularity, I would think). He used to be my favorite when I was younger (besides Spider-Man). I wish Marvel would return him to the way he used to be. But that's probably not gonna happen.

Hope to hear from you soon! :)

Naw, I can be reasonable and accept the fact that Wolverine's fighting prowess has it's limitations for reasons that we've both listed. It becomes frustrating to see sometimes because I'd like to see Wolverine show more of that skill and strive for it instead of acting like an idiot and wildly flailing around.

And from your posts, I've never actually seen any indication your hate towards Wolverine so I congratulate you on not going into some rabid hate mongering of the character and are able converse about him in a civil manner :D

[Izsak Loudon]

Just to snip it here and take this...

...find somewhere else to do so.

... yeah, once again, I do need to find something better to do -- and somewhere else I guess? :D

Heh. What can I say, I'm an only child, I don't play well with others...

Anyway, Waleiykum assalam, everyone!

[Cowlander]

I think he's very well versed in Boxing, Jujitsu, Kenjutsu, Aikido, Ninjutsu and some southern style Kung Fu since he's shown to have discipline in all of those styles and has visited many places in the far east/Orient that teach those skills. I think those fighting styles when combined are sufficient enough to make Logan a very well balanced fighter.

And also they lend themselves VERY well to his body and his claws. Although like you said, it's arguable wether it would make him the very best since some disciplines work better for others and one style of fighting never guarantees victory.


I don't think he's an animal at heart, it's a defense mechanism that has been built upon over the years of torment and tragedy. He often basks in the simplicity of animal life (running with packs of wolves and hunting in the wilderness) which contributes ALOT towards his berserker rages since that animal mentality tends to seep in many times during anger or frustration.

It's not always a disadvantage though, when he fought Mr. X, the animal instincts inside of him made it harder for X (who is basically cheating with his telepathy) to detect his moves and makes Logan FAR more dangerous even if much more wreckless. It's an interesting conflict regarding whatever fighting style he has learned and it definitely impedes on his fighting ability more often than not.


Heh which "idiot" are you referring to that gave him more fighting skills and what issues in particular did it show Wolverine showing techniques he's never used before?

I agree with your assessment in that he needs to push himself to be the best and comes up short alot because of his powers and psychological profile but even still I would definitely put him in the top 10. He's trained various X-Men and both Storm & Kitty to become formidable fighters as well as the Academy X kids so that has to account for a good deal of retained fighting ability.


Wether Wolverine was physically stronger at the time of his role of Death is hard to say. He was shown to rip doors apart with the sword Apocalypse gave him in Astonishing X-Men as well as being able to gouge the sword into Hulk's back so it could have to do with the the sword's properties.

I'm not so sure if Hulk's regenerative abilities are that much more better than Wolverine's either unless you can show me an example of superior healing. Both have survived insane burns throughout their bodies as well as various lacerations and so forth. The only advantage I could see Hulk having is that when he turns back to Bruce and back to Hulk again his wounds would heal instantly and maybe vice versa.


Naw, I can be reasonable and accept the fact that Wolverine's fighting prowess has it's limitations for reasons that we've both listed. It becomes frustrating to see sometimes because I'd like to see Wolverine show more of that skill and strive for it instead of acting like an idiot and wildly flailing around.

And from your posts, I've never actually seen any indication your hate towards Wolverine so I congratulate you on not going into some rabid hate mongering of the character and are able converse about him in a civil manner :D

Velocity of the Ufoes reduced HUlk down to his skeleton during Davids first run. The skeleton stood up and as it walked toward Vel he completely regenerated his body in the spaec of a few panels. Hulks regen far outstrips Wolvie. It ws basically said that hulk doesnt have any real measurable amount of invulnerability. He simply heals so fast to make any wounds seem like theyve never been inflicted in the first place.

And for an example of how a healing factor would make you a worse fighter. Look at Manji in the Blade of the Immortal book(you all should be reading this anyway). Manji is immortal anywound inflicted will be healed by the "blood worms" that infest his body. Hes admmitted in the book thats hes nowhere near the level he was right before he was infected. He comments on since he lost the fear of death, that since he knows any blow isnt potentially fatal. He lacks alot of the instinctual edge and precision he used to have. Manji actually tries to dodge blows, wolvie for years has been shown to simply wade thru everything to get that one hit.

Outside of the lack of specialization in training that alot of other chars have(wolvies been around) he also because of his power lacks the fear and need to overcome and not lose that being easily moratally wounded would give you. This dulls his skills, add that to is habit of going beserk and he drops further below others in abilty IMHO Veserker rage works against someone like Mr. X or psylocke, but not against anyone who doesnt rely on a power like that.

[Will.S]

Velocity of the Ufoes reduced HUlk down to his skeleton during Davids first run. The skeleton stood up and as it walked toward Vel he completely regenerated his body in the spaec of a few panels. Hulks regen far outstrips Wolvie.

I've seen that panel and it's not exactly Hulk's skeleton, he still has a good layer of inner muscles showing. Wolverine has survived burns similarly fatal in the last part of Blood Debt which had an entire castle blow up with Wolverine still inside showing Logan having much charred burning skin and even parts of the metallic skeleton showing:

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/7...plosion4eh.jpg

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/2...sionpg24dy.jpg

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4...losion36ic.jpg

He gets blown out of the castle by the explosion's force. In Morrison's New X-Men he regrows his skin around the metal skeleton as well.

And for an example of how a healing factor would make you a worse fighter. Look at Manji in the Blade of the Immortal book(you all should be reading this anyway). Manji is immortal anywound inflicted will be healed by the "blood worms" that infest his body. Hes admmitted in the book thats hes nowhere near the level he was right before he was infected. He comments on since he lost the fear of death, that since he knows any blow isnt potentially fatal. He lacks alot of the instinctual edge and precision he used to have. Manji actually tries to dodge blows, wolvie for years has been shown to simply wade thru everything to get that one hit.

Outside of the lack of specialization in training that alot of other chars have(wolvies been around) he also because of his power lacks the fear and need to overcome and not lose that being easily moratally wounded would give you. This dulls his skills, add that to is habit of going beserk and he drops further below others in abilty IMHO Veserker rage works against someone like Mr. X or psylocke, but not against anyone who doesnt rely on a power like that.

I actually agree wholeheartedly. Logan takes on lethal hits and injuries with the mentality of immortality and I think it's an unwise thing to do although it has maintainted to be one of the coolest aspects of his character mutant power wise.

[sonofagun]

ummmm, has anyone mentioned Howard the duck? I mean Master of Quack-Fu!

[NathanielEssex]

What's up, guys?

EXCELLENT post, Cowlander!! :)

I still wouldn't put Wolverine in the top 20 in comic books. Maybe number 20 if we're only counting Marvel characters. People forget just how many martial arts experts (even minor characters) were introduced in Marvel comics in the past and present.

Yeah, Will, I think congratulations ARE necessary! I'm holding a lot back to keep this rational, dude! Its pretty sad and pathetic how much anger I have towards something that doesn't exist. But it JUST. AIN'T. RIGHT. what they did to him....sorry. :D

Also, Hulk's heart can apparently heal after being run-through. (THere was an issue with Speedfreak stabbing him through the heart). I'm not a Hulk fan, so I couldn't give you numbers/etc. I read it as a kid. Little help, Hulk fans??

And as I've said (like a broken record, huh? ) before, Logan just ain't cut out to be a master martial artist. Except with the Japanese styles. I could buy him being that. That was his main focus.

I don't know the writer of the "Ogun" BS, but that was retarded. Although there has been precedent for it, it's still pretty ridiculous that a samurai (demon, I might add) would teach Logan some kung-fu (Samurai=japanese, kung fu=chinese). That's what I was talking about with the "idiot writer" stuff. He's been fighting using a Japanese/brawling hybrid for years, and all of a sudden, because it's written into his past, he's like, "Hey, I just remembered! I know Praying Mantis and Muay Thai!!" That's just obscenely ridiculous. And no, since I've never read it, I don't know if he was drawn exhibiting skills different than he was before. But I imagine he would have to be, wouldn't he? Otherwise, what's the point of inserting things into his past that don't make sense (bitterness creeping in)?

Also, on a side note, I don't think Wolverine's regeneration would be unlimited. It would take a lot of energy/calories for his body to perform that function on something major, like missing flesh or several bullet wounds. Your cells need energy to perform tasks (like, I imagine, regeneration--though it doesn't exist for humans and is NOT that fast in animals). That means, in order to keep his regeneration up, he would have to eat an entire pig between panels. Maybe a cow. :D The extra material for those new cells has to come from somewhere, right?

[Will.S]

Will, I think congratulations ARE necessary! I'm holding a lot back to keep this rational, dude! Its pretty sad and pathetic how much anger I have towards something that doesn't exist. But it JUST. AIN'T. RIGHT. what they did to him....sorry. :D

Heh alrighty.

Also, Hulk's heart can apparently heal after being run-through. (THere was an issue with Speedfreak stabbing him through the heart). I'm not a Hulk fan, so I couldn't give you numbers/etc. I read it as a kid. Little help, Hulk fans??

Wolverine has healed from multiple types of piercings to the heart (from spears to bullets to knives/swords) as well as having it pretty much explode and regenerate back in Secret War.

And as I've said (like a broken record, huh? ) before, Logan just ain't cut out to be a master martial artist. Except with the Japanese styles. I could buy him being that. That was his main focus.

I think he still is, he just has to overcome certain obstacles. If only writers started to write him as more effective and capable in combat without going all berserker and the overreliance on the healing factor.

I don't know the writer of the "Ogun" BS, but that was retarded. Although there has been precedent for it, it's still pretty ridiculous that a samurai (demon, I might add) would teach Logan some kung-fu (Samurai=japanese, kung fu=chinese). That's what I was talking about with the "idiot writer" stuff. He's been fighting using a Japanese/brawling hybrid for years, and all of a sudden, because it's written into his past, he's like, "Hey, I just remembered! I know Praying Mantis and Muay Thai!!" That's just obscenely ridiculous. And no, since I've never read it, I don't know if he was drawn exhibiting skills different than he was before. But I imagine he would have to be, wouldn't he? Otherwise, what's the point of inserting things into his past that don't make sense (bitterness creeping in)?

Heh I never read that story but some of that does sound suspect.

Also, on a side note, I don't think Wolverine's regeneration would be unlimited. It would take a lot of energy/calories for his body to perform that function on something major, like missing flesh or several bullet wounds. Your cells need energy to perform tasks (like, I imagine, regeneration--though it doesn't exist for humans and is NOT that fast in animals). That means, in order to keep his regeneration up, he would have to eat an entire pig between panels. Maybe a cow. :D The extra material for those new cells has to come from somewhere, right?

Needing energy to continue using those abilities is a fairly obvious assumption for most heroes who can do things like that so Wolverine's healing factor definitely has its limits although he has incredible endurance and stamina.