Superboy retcon

[drpblunt]

ok i have a question, when was Superboy's origin retconned??

i used to be a fan of the Karl Kessel run and as far as I know superboy was never a clone of superman nor did he have any kryptonian DNA (or mabey it was very little), human DNA was manipulated by cadmus to mimic kryptonian DNA and connor was a clone of the former director of cadmus.

i thought that origin was fine and pretty imaginative, so who changed it and when??

[Bat-Mite]

Geoff Johns in Teen Titans. But it wasn't a retcon retcon, it was one of those "So you think you knew what happened? This is what really happened!"

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Geoff Johns in Teen Titans. But it wasn't a retcon retcon, it was one of those "So you think you knew what happened? This is what really happened!"
No.. it was a retcon.

A VERY Sloppy one too.

Superboy's powers and origin was established since Reign, and the subsequent guest issue in the "Adventures" Title where the CADMUS directors told Sueprboy his origin.

And that he is 100% human.

Again, Superboy Issue #0, Superboy, in an unscheduled, last second exam at STAR LABS in Hawaii via Emil Hamilton using a genetics lab.

Emil says, and I QUOTE "You're completely human, of course".

Next, when Donovan unleashed a genetic retrovirus that targeted specific cloned individuals, Superboy's genetic structure was resequenced to lock his age...

He was examined and given the 'completely human' line by Sterling Roquette in Cadmus...

His genetic structure was resequenced AGAIN... Using as the template... Roxy Leech.

And THEN in Sins of Youth, his genetic sequence was resequenced by Sterling Roquette... To allow him to age again.

And again and again and again, Superoby's genetic structure was examined.. (even by Superman using an electron microscope in the start of the Hypertension Arc)... All say "You're completely Human".


And all this... has been RETCONNED by Geoff Johns by saying that Tim Drake... using a laptop, is far more qualified in genetic sciences than Emil Hamilton, Sterling Roquette... and is better at examinations than Superman using an electron microscope.

So yes... Retcon.

[Ontir]

It wasn't a retcon, it was a tweak of events. A retcon would be if they suddenly said all the stuff that happened on Hawaii, never happened now.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

It wasn't a retcon, it was a tweak of events. A retcon would be if they suddenly said all the stuff that happened on Hawaii, never happened now.
Whcih IS what they did.

[DDM]

No.. it was a retcon.

A VERY Sloppy one too.

Superboy's powers and origin was established since Reign, and the subsequent guest issue in the "Adventures" Title where the CADMUS directors told Sueprboy his origin.

And that he is 100% human.

Again, Superboy Issue #0, Superboy, in an unscheduled, last second exam at STAR LABS in Hawaii via Emil Hamilton using a genetics lab.

Emil says, and I QUOTE "You're completely human, of course".

Next, when Donovan unleashed a genetic retrovirus that targeted specific cloned individuals, Superboy's genetic structure was resequenced to lock his age...

He was examined and given the 'completely human' line by Sterling Roquette in Cadmus...

His genetic structure was resequenced AGAIN... Using as the template... Roxy Leech.

And THEN in Sins of Youth, his genetic sequence was resequenced by Sterling Roquette... To allow him to age again.

And again and again and again, Superoby's genetic structure was examined.. (even by Superman using an electron microscope in the start of the Hypertension Arc)... All say "You're completely Human".


And all this... has been RETCONNED by Geoff Johns by saying that Tim Drake... using a laptop, is far more qualified in genetic sciences than Emil Hamilton, Sterling Roquette... and is better at examinations than Superman using an electron microscope.

So yes... Retcon.


Oh calm down. It's nothing too different than say, "Superboy, I'm sorry but you're part Jean Grey. Go save your friends from the solar flare & report back to me pronto."

[ChaosBurnFlame]

The question was whether it was a retcon or not.

I feel I answered it.

it is.

a very sloppy one too.

[ConnersConsicence]

ok i have a question, when was Superboy's origin retconned??

i used to be a fan of the Karl Kessel run and as far as I know superboy was never a clone of superman nor did he have any kryptonian DNA (or mabey it was very little), human DNA was manipulated by cadmus to mimic kryptonian DNA and connor was a clone of the former director of cadmus.

i thought that origin was fine and pretty imaginative, so who changed it and when??
it was never retconned it has always been half sups half human..all they did was say who the human was....

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Yeah, it was a retcon and the best retcon I've seen done in awhile.

They took Superboy from the clone of some guy nobody has ever heard of, but was made to look like Superman as a boy, to a clone of the two most interesting characters in the DCU.

The first origin was somewhat convoluted and underwhelming, the second immediately gets me interested in the character.

[jerrymcl89]

Yeah, it was a retcon and the best retcon I've seen done in awhile.

They took Superboy from the clone of some guy nobody has ever heard of, but was made to look like Superman as a boy, to a clone of the two most interesting characters in the DCU.

The first origin was somewhat convoluted and underwhelming, the second immediately gets me interested in the character.

I'd agree it increases the character's potential. OTOH, Johns has thus far not managed to do more with it than some repetitive brooding on S-boy's part. Obviously, at this stage of the Crisis the payoff could be soon, but we haven't seen any yet.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I'd agree it increases the character's potential. OTOH, Johns has thus far not managed to do more with it than some repetitive brooding on S-boy's part. Obviously, at this stage of the Crisis the payoff could be soon, but we haven't seen any yet.

I agree, there's far more potential to this new origin than having Superboy sulk for several issues. I'd rather they'd kept him under Luthor's control for a few more issues than this.

[Kevinroc]

Yeah, it was a retcon and the best retcon I've seen done in awhile.

They took Superboy from the clone of some guy nobody has ever heard of, but was made to look like Superman as a boy, to a clone of the two most interesting characters in the DCU.

The first origin was somewhat convoluted and underwhelming, the second immediately gets me interested in the character.

Funny you should mention that.

At a panel I was at, DC editors stated that they loved Geoff's Superboy idea so much that they wished they had thought of it when the character was first created.

And DiDio seems to have a real love of getting rid of convoluted origins. He considered Supergirl (Linda or Matrix or whatever)'s origin too convoluted and wanted Supergirl back as "Superman's cousin" since it was simple and easy to understand.

[Apathy Boy]

Funny you should mention that.

At a panel I was at, DC editors stated that they loved Geoff's Superboy idea so much that they wished they had thought of it when the character was first created.

And DiDio seems to have a real love of getting rid of convoluted origins. He considered Supergirl (Linda or Matrix or whatever)'s origin too convoluted and wanted Supergirl back as "Superman's cousin" since it was simple and easy to understand.Yeah, I gotta admit to agreeing with that one. As much as I dislike the character, the "cousin" origin is much more palatable than the "protoplasmic blob merged with a bad girl earth angel" origin. I think the Linda Danvers Supergirl is the type of character that would fall apart if written by anyone other than her creator.

For that reason, I'm liking the tweaks to Superboy's origin too.

[Ultraman Max]

The orgin change doesn't bother me so much as his personality and outfit changes do. Yes, his original costume was very of the early nineties era it was created in but is still better than the jeans and t-shirt look (Look up in the sky, it's superfanboy!). And I can't say I care much for his "I can't trust myself" mopeyness over his devil may care adventureness as portrayed in his old series. I really liked Karl Kessel's 2nd run on that.

[Guts/Batman]

God I hate Clone Angst. It wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't such a whiny bitch boy (Anakin Skywalker was less of a whiny bitch boy, which is saying something) about and didn't stop fulfilling his responsibilities to the Teen Titans and to himself.

Johns has had him spending too much time saying "Luthor didn't clone me to help people." and not enoguh time saving lives. What a waste for the character.

At the very least, he should fulfill his responsibilities. He's only on about 15 pages since TT #26, but those pages are just mindgrating.

The way Johns is writing Kon-El, I want to choke both him and his character out. I don't know if that was his plan, but that's certainly what I want do to the character at least.

[drpblunt]

i disagree with the retcone being done really well, basically every major scientific agency and scientist in the DCU confirmed superboy was a modified human, but robin disproves these findings with his laptop?

plus, one thing thats been superman canon for a long time was that science was unable to make a clone of superman without the clone degrading (see, bizarro) right?

i thought the modified human angle was far more interesting, and to be quite frank, the whole bastard love child of supes and lex really skeeves me out, man it's really really creepy.

plus it seems to invalidate the prev 100 issue run of superboy.

and his entire personality has been changed, he used to be an irrevrent and happy go lucky teen, and a really fun character to read, now he's just a cookie cutter idea of what a teen should be.

[Chris Thomas]

don't ask 'how did one kid and a laptop fool many top scientists and several labs' but 'how did luther design connor's dna to keep it hidden from all those scientists.' but maybe he didn't plan for some 'low tech' analysis.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I think Luthor has more than enough cunning and resources to cover up anything he did with both Superboy's DNA and mind for as long as necessary. He is pretty much the sneakiest and smartest guy on the planet.

And, yeah, the bastard child of Lex and Clark is a really, really creepy idea. Damn, Lex comes up with some really perverted ideas sometimes.

[drpblunt]

don't ask 'how did one kid and a laptop fool many top scientists and several labs' but 'how did luther design connor's dna to keep it hidden from all those scientists.' but maybe he didn't plan for some 'low tech' analysis.

c'mon thats a stretch if i ever heard of one, "low tech analysis" and i never said robin and his laptop was fooling anybody, what i did say was how did robin and his laptop discover this when the greatest minds in the DCU were all in agreement that superboy was human.

look, imo this is just another sloppy retcon (yellow fear monster??) its just poor writing and lack of imagination.

to be fair, mabey Johns has too much on his plate and really isn't thinking these things thru, but regardless, so far the superboy and greenlantern(paralax) retcons were just plain sloppy

[Doug Strange]

it was never retconned it has always been half sups half human..all they did was say who the human was....No, that's not correct. Originally, Superboy (and the audience) was made to believe he was a clone of Superman. Then, later, in a Superboy annual, they discovered that they actually couldn't duplicate any of Superman's DNA, so they took genetic material from Cadmus director Paul Westfield and tweaked that to make it more like Superman.

Then, much later, in the Teen Titans book, Geoff Johns threw that out and said he was half Superman/half Luthor. Which, in terms of ideas and potential, is much better, I guess...but the execution has not been there.

I'm not proud of knowing this.

[KET]

Funny you should mention that.

At a panel I was at, DC editors stated that they loved Geoff's Superboy idea so much that they wished they had thought of it when the character was first created.

I'm glad they originally DIDN'T.

Kesel's Superboy run was much more interesting than what Johns has been doing with him thus far in TT. The whole 'I'm one part hero and one part evil' shtick is pretty OLD HAT anyway and Johns hasn't been able to provide any new twists on it ever since.

And DiDio seems to have a real love of getting rid of convoluted origins.

...only when it suits him. While he LOVES trotting out the post-Crisis Supergirl origin as an example (and always muddies it up even more than it really was during PAD's run), DiDio never wants to talk about how he's now made Firestorm's origin more convoluted, and is about to do the same to Aquaman.

wanted Supergirl back as "Superman's cousin" since it was simple and easy to understand.

Of course, in retrospect, all that didn't really matter, 'cause now they've got a super-bimbo who's NOT WORTH READING ABOUT.

[Chris Thomas]

c'mon thats a stretch if i ever heard of one, "low tech analysis" and i never said robin and his laptop was fooling anybody, what i did say was how did robin and his laptop discover this when the greatest minds in the DCU were all in agreement that superboy was human.

look, imo this is just another sloppy retcon (yellow fear monster??) its just poor writing and lack of imagination.

to be fair, mabey Johns has too much on his plate and really isn't thinking these things thru, but regardless, so far the superboy and greenlantern(paralax) retcons were just plain sloppy

oops--yah I wrote that wrong. I didn't mean robin fooled anyone. I meant luthor did.

perhaps luthor anticipated that some big labs would try to analyze the dna and determine its origin. so, he designed the dna (or at least the something in the samples) to fool traditional, big tech dna sequencers. however, maybe robin used a low tech analysis that bypassed luthor's designed deception.

certainly today there are hi-tech and lower-tech ways to sequence dna and I could imagine that some of the hi-tech methods could be inaccurate when compared to brute-force sequencing.

I don't thing that is a stretch at all.

another explanation--maybe luthor designed the dna to 'hide the truth' that only lasted so long-i.e. he had a high tech deception that had a time limit

[Azrael52]

Ok, I hope that there is a new SB series soon. He'd better kick some ace in IC. I'm getting Steel back in "52", now I need SB, Eradicator, and even ol' Hank Henshaw.

[SuperManny]

oops--yah I wrote that wrong. I didn't mean robin fooled anyone. I meant luthor did.

perhaps luthor anticipated that some big labs would try to analyze the dna and determine its origin. so, he designed the dna (or at least the something in the samples) to fool traditional, big tech dna sequencers. however, maybe robin used a low tech analysis that bypassed luthor's designed deception.

certainly today there are hi-tech and lower-tech ways to sequence dna and I could imagine that some of the hi-tech methods could be inaccurate when compared to brute-force sequencing.

I don't thing that is a stretch at all.

another explanation--maybe luthor designed the dna to 'hide the truth' that only lasted so long-i.e. he had a high tech deception that had a time limit

Exactly.

I'm with the crowd that agrees this is one of the better retcons out there. It is a retcon because the origin has been tweaked. However, it's a small enough tweak that all events prior to him joining the Teen Titans still exist.

At no time did the editors negate any of Superboy's past events. Hawaii still happened, and so did Hamilton's and Roquette's DNA analysis.

A reason of why I buy Robin's "laptop low-tech" analysis to be true: the email that guided him in the direction of checking for the 50% Superman DNA - 50% Luthor DNA was sent by the source -Lex Luthor! Remember, he's not Superman's 100% clone since that wasn't successful at that point (at least, figuring out his DNA sequence). Perhaps Hamilton, Superman and Roquette weren't looking at the 50-50 angle in their analysis. Plus, it is viable that Roxy Leech's and Sterling Roquette's DNA sequences would work as templates, as well as Superman's, because they possibly have all those bases in his unique DNA chain!

As I remember Hamilton's analysis, it was human DNA that "resembled" Kryptonian. Maybe he didn't have the whole picture.

Or an even better theory: DNA mapping technology advanced in the next 1-2 years of Superboy's life.

Look at it this way: Paul Westfield was fooled into thinking it was his DNA stock used for Kon-El. Luthor was on top of his game and even makes a note of "the director's" foolishness in one of the Teen Titans issue.

Another thing: Superboy's powers may have been defined in Kesel's initial run, but you'll probably recall how all the major writers have modified it. Joe Kelly gave him really malleable tactile telekinesis. And even Kesel in his second run stated that he was in his teens, so it was not known what other powers he may develop in his future. Black Zero, an alternate grown-up Superboy, had all the powers that the current Superboy has developed today.

It really isn't as bad as the "yellow fear monster" :)

[Iangould]

They took Superboy from the clone of some guy nobody has ever heard of, but was made to look like Superman as a boy, to a clone of the two most interesting characters in the DCU.


Not to mention bringing enormous joy to countless writers of Smallville slash.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Exactly.

I'm with the crowd that agrees this is one of the better retcons out there. It is a retcon because the origin has been tweaked. However, it's a small enough tweak that all events prior to him joining the Teen Titans still exist.

At no time did the editors negate any of Superboy's past events. Hawaii still happened, and so did Hamilton's and Roquette's DNA analysis.

A reason of why I buy Robin's "laptop low-tech" analysis to be true: the email that guided him in the direction of checking for the 50% Superman DNA - 50% Luthor DNA was sent by the source -Lex Luthor! Remember, he's not Superman's 100% clone since that wasn't successful at that point (at least, figuring out his DNA sequence). Perhaps Hamilton, Superman and Roquette weren't looking at the 50-50 angle in their analysis. Plus, it is viable that Roxy Leech's and Sterling Roquette's DNA sequences would work as templates, as well as Superman's, because they possibly have all those bases in his unique DNA chain!

As I remember Hamilton's analysis, it was human DNA that "resembled" Kryptonian. Maybe he didn't have the whole picture.

Or an even better theory: DNA mapping technology advanced in the next 1-2 years of Superboy's life.

Look at it this way: Paul Westfield was fooled into thinking it was his DNA stock used for Kon-El. Luthor was on top of his game and even makes a note of "the director's" foolishness in one of the Teen Titans issue.

Another thing: Superboy's powers may have been defined in Kesel's initial run, but you'll probably recall how all the major writers have modified it. Joe Kelly gave him really malleable tactile telekinesis. And even Kesel in his second run stated that he was in his teens, so it was not known what other powers he may develop in his future. Black Zero, an alternate grown-up Superboy, had all the powers that the current Superboy has developed today.

It really isn't as bad as the "yellow fear monster" :)


Actually all of Black Zero's powers were all based off Tactile Telekinesis... just on a much higher level than before...

We saw the same with RE: Match.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

oops--yah I wrote that wrong. I didn't mean robin fooled anyone. I meant luthor did.

perhaps luthor anticipated that some big labs would try to analyze the dna and determine its origin. so, he designed the dna (or at least the something in the samples) to fool traditional, big tech dna sequencers. however, maybe robin used a low tech analysis that bypassed luthor's designed deception.

certainly today there are hi-tech and lower-tech ways to sequence dna and I could imagine that some of the hi-tech methods could be inaccurate when compared to brute-force sequencing.

I don't thing that is a stretch at all.

another explanation--maybe luthor designed the dna to 'hide the truth' that only lasted so long-i.e. he had a high tech deception that had a time limit

BUt...

its a FRIGGIN LAPTOP used by Friggin Tim Drake.

Lemme tell you something, Superboy's DNA was once examined by Superman... using an ELECTRON MICROSCOPE.

back in Kesel's run...

Now want to tell me how a laptop's more accurate than THAT?

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Also, if I may, the way Johns has handled this retcon has been abismal. nearly 2 years and no resolution in sight. Just a lot of Emo whining and Author soapbox lectures about nature vs nurture.

Years(plural) of no resolution for a character is just sloppy writing.. of course this is "I didn't like Bart so I changed him until I liked him" fanfiction reasoning Geoff Johns we're talking about here.

[LoneWolf21]

Another problem, was that we had thought bubbles from Lex during Reign of the Supermen wondering where the heck Superboy came from.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Lonewolf, if you tried to create a list of problems with this, the sloppiest of retcons, the list would become longer than every post on every board on the CBR.

[SuperManny]

Actually all of Black Zero's powers were all based off Tactile Telekinesis... just on a much higher level than before...


I was referring to his heat vision and super hearing powers.

*misses Black Zero*

[ChaosBurnFlame]

I was referring to his heat vision and super hearing powers.

*misses Black Zero*
*someone missed the exam Sterling Roquette gave Superboy and identified many extra genes given into his structure, for 'superheraring' and such*

[SuperManny]

Also, if I may, the way Johns has handled this retcon has been abismal. nearly 2 years and no resolution in sight. Just a lot of Emo whining and Author soapbox lectures about nature vs nurture.

Years(plural) of no resolution for a character is just sloppy writing.. of course this is "I didn't like Bart so I changed him until I liked him" fanfiction reasoning Geoff Johns we're talking about here.

I don't understand that complaint, because the writer wasn't looking for any resolution at all. It's been determined and that's that. Superboy has spent the last two years mulling over if he's truly evil or not. If that's the kind of stuff you don't like reading, then surely you hated Kesel's 30+ issue run when he dealt with being a clone of Paul Westfield.

Face it, Superboy has ALWAYS dealt with "nature versus nurture" kind of plots. It's just that the discovery/retcon that he was Lex Luthor's clone was only 2 years ago -recent to most new comic book readers.

BUt...

its a FRIGGIN LAPTOP used by Friggin Tim Drake.

Lemme tell you something, Superboy's DNA was once examined by Superman... using an ELECTRON MICROSCOPE.

back in Kesel's run...

Now want to tell me how a laptop's more accurate than THAT?

The Batcave computer? Having the analysis sent via email from the laptop to the computer to have it compiled there?

And where did Superman get his biology degree? ;)

[ChaosBurnFlame]

That's the problem...

The big complaint is "Its been done".

[SuperManny]

*someone missed the exam Sterling Roquette gave Superboy and identified many extra genes given into his structure, for 'superheraring' and such*

You're missing what I said in my previous post: it's not infeasible to say that the technology wasn't there "back then" to arrive at the conclusion the current analyzers show. :)

Why is it so hard to correlate those super powers to ones that Superman already has....?

[ChaosBurnFlame]

You're missing what I said in my previous post: it's not infeasible to say that the technology wasn't there "back then" to arrive at the conclusion the current analyzers show. :)

Why is it so hard to correlate those super powers to ones that Superman already has....?
They're also powers that many catalogued metahumans on Earth already have.

EDIT: In case you forgotten, Cadmus took Jim Harper's DNA and cranked out a guy that can fly in space with superstrength and can fire enegy bolts from his fists...

So why's it so inconcievable that they can't just make up a new non kryptonian gene that does superhearing?

[SuperManny]

So why's it so inconcievable that they can't just make up a new non kryptonian gene that does superhearing?

It isn't. The point is that the powers he developed amazingly resemble Superman's. So why is it so tough to accept that the "outsiders" (i.e. those out of the loop of what Lex Luthor really did with Superman's clone) have a hard time deciphering what type of DNA he has? Isn't it possible they could all be mistaken, especially when the technology of back then probably improved?

And yep, Guardian's clone, Auron, actually had Superman's DNA encoded in himself...it's too bad a deep space bar hopper trashed him :)

But, we all know the Agenda figured out his sequence as well ;)

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Actaully Auron didn't have Superman DNA in him... he took the information for the sequence and felw out into space.

You misread the book.

EDIT: And gee, you also apparently missed that all these examinations, by experts...

Gee, you're acting like they were reading DNA with rock tools.

'advances' my butt... it's only been 2 years in storywise time.

[SuperManny]

Actaully Auron didn't have Superman DNA in him... he took the information for the sequence and felw out into space.

You misread the book.

EDIT: And gee, you also apparently missed that all these examinations, by experts...

Gee, you're acting like they were reading DNA with rock tools.

'advances' my butt... it's only been 2 years in storywise time.

Chaos, put a stop to your accusations.

Auron had Superman's DNA sequence; I know it wasn't a physical sample. Sorry if you misunderstood me.

Obviously I didn't miss any of the examinations by professionals, because I've mentioned them in my previous posts. What you're missing is that they probably didn't have the proper tools to come to the correct conclusion. Professionals make mistakes, just ask the people who design Mars rovers.

It is possible.

I suppose it's just harder to imagine for other readers, but that's okay, that's what the messageboards are for.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Chaos, put a stop to your accusations.

Auron had Superman's DNA sequence; I know it wasn't a physical sample. Sorry if you misunderstood me.

Obviously I didn't miss any of the examinations by professionals, because I've mentioned them in my previous posts. What you're missing is that they probably didn't have the proper tools to come to the correct conclusion. Professionals make mistakes, just ask the people who design Mars rovers.

It is possible.

I suppose it's just harder to imagine for other readers, but that's okay, that's what the messageboards are for.
Again, you're saying that Tim Drake with a laptop trumps people with genetics labs, a guy with supervision and an electron microscope, etc etc etc.

I mean, I've said this before on another board: DC never did the No Prize, you can stop now.

Say the following: It is a Retcon. It is a Sloppy Retcon. It replaces Characterization with Angst.

You're allowed to like it... but acknowledge it.

[SuperManny]

Again, you're saying that Tim Drake with a laptop trumps people with genetics labs, a guy with supervision and an electron microscope, etc etc etc.

I mean, I've said this before on another board: DC never did the No Prize, you can stop now.

Say the following: It is a Retcon. It is a Sloppy Retcon. It replaces Characterization with Angst.

You're allowed to like it... but acknowledge it.

Can't acknowledge something that I don't think it's true (the 'sloppy' retcon).

Tim Drake sent information from a laptop to the BatCave (more processing speed, better software) where it was compiled. Hard to imagine?

I'm not looking for a No Prize, I'm just doing what most readers do when the writer assumes its common sense (or has sloppy writing). In this case, the off-panels made sense to me (as I justified above).

Can anyone else think of other possible scenarios?

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Can't acknowledge something that I don't think it's true (the 'sloppy' retcon).

Tim Drake sent information from a laptop to the BatCave (more processing speed, better software) where it was compiled. Hard to imagine?

I'm not looking for a No Prize, I'm just doing what most readers do when the writer assumes its common sense (or has sloppy writing). In this case, the off-panels made sense to me (as I justified above).

Can anyone else think of other possible scenarios?
Yes, Geoff Johns is a hack?

That one fits with the common knowedge we have on him based on what he says at Cons.

You like taht one?

[cmndob]

Just to defend Johns, as his take On Conner piqued my interest in the character-
A large part of the supposed retcon is Emil Hamilton and Cadmus?
So Ruin lied? Oooooooh shocking!
I have a good feeling Conner is never gonna kick so much ass as he will in IC4

[SuperManny]

Yes, Geoff Johns is a hack?

That one fits with the common knowedge we have on him based on what he says at Cons.

You like taht one?

Nope, sounds like a cop-out to me than just using your imagination.

Different strokes for different folks.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Just to defend Johns, as his take On Conner piqued my interest in the character-
A large part of the supposed retcon is Emil Hamilton and Cadmus?
So Ruin lied? Oooooooh shocking!
I have a good feeling Conner is never gonna kick so much ass as he will in IC4


And so did Sterling Roquette too?

and BTW, Ruin is going to be every supporting cast member of Superman, from Jimmy Olsen to Pa Kent.


And Johns is undefendable.

He says really really lame defenses to his really bad writing.

Its a wonder he got in the industry.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Nope, sounds like a cop-out to me than just using your imagination.

Different strokes for different folks.

Here's another one:

Pale Martians Mind-wiped everyoen Superboy ever knew and replaced him with a whiney emo kid, while the Real Superboy is somewhere else.

I like that one better.

[SuperManny]

Here's another one:

Pale Martians Mind-wiped everyoen Superboy ever knew and replaced him with a whiney emo kid, while the Real Superboy is somewhere else.

I like that one better.

Hey that works for me too! :)

[ChaosBurnFlame]

actually, my ideal retcon is saying everything from Graduation Day onward was a dream by a demented deity...

the dreamer is awakened and everything is right.

[Chris Thomas]

BUt...

its a FRIGGIN LAPTOP used by Friggin Tim Drake.

Lemme tell you something, Superboy's DNA was once examined by Superman... using an ELECTRON MICROSCOPE.

back in Kesel's run...

Now want to tell me how a laptop's more accurate than THAT?


now have you ever seen computers that actually do low-tech sequencing? try trs-80 quality. so a modern lap-top beats that by a mile. in fact, early sequencing was brute force and didn't involve computers at all.

electron microscope? since when were they able to tell one base pair from another and string them together into a meaningful analysis? that's like using a stethescope to listen to the radio.

[itsyaboy]

I like Johns retcon better than the original origin. Having Superboy be half kryptonian makes him closer to Superman. Meaning if something did happen to the Big S....he'd be the natural choice to take up the mantle. The only part of the retcon that I don't like is the kid's receding hairline.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Acrtaully, Superman gave Superboy the 'next in the line' choice in Kesel's choice and origin...

and it MEANT more then too.

See, people think being a blood relative makes it strong...

Well, it doesn't. NOT being related to the guy makes it all that much better, because it says you can't be BORN into being Superman, you have to WORK at it.

But feh, you don't understand that.

[Guts/Batman]

I have a good feeling Conner is never gonna kick so much ass as he will in IC4

He better...

I mean it. He really better kick some ass.

For me, the damage has been done.

[Kevinroc]

He's facing off against S-Prime. I don't expect him to win.

[Guts/Batman]

He's facing off against S-Prime. I don't expect him to win.

I don't expect it either.

I expect him to get his ass beat.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Again, you're saying that Tim Drake with a laptop trumps people with genetics labs, a guy with supervision and an electron microscope, etc etc etc.

I mean, I've said this before on another board: DC never did the No Prize, you can stop now.

Say the following: It is a Retcon. It is a Sloppy Retcon. It replaces Characterization with Angst.

You're allowed to like it... but acknowledge it.

Y'know, this "I'm right and you're wrong, admit it" line of debate never really works. If you're actually trying to convince people to agree with your point of view, there could not possibly be a worse way of going about it. Well, actually, there is one: You could hold your breath until the rest of us admit that we're all wrong for enjoying Geoff Johns' writing.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

He's facing off against S-Prime. I don't expect him to win.

If Superboy Prime is still capable of Pre-Crisis feats of power, Conner should be toast, but it looks like Alexander Luthor has been keeping him out of the sun, which may be keeping his power levels to a more managable level. Granted, he was able to whup Martian Manhunter's ass with ease...

[Kevinroc]

If Superboy Prime is still capable of Pre-Crisis feats of power, Conner should be toast, but it looks like Alexander Luthor has been keeping him out of the sun, which may be keeping his power levels to a more managable level. Granted, he was able to whup Martian Manhunter's ass with ease...

Martian Manhunter and Power Girl with ease.

But the S-Prime being powered by the sun thing is weird. I always thought he wasn't powered by solar radiation and his powers were awakened because of Haley's Comet.

Still, the biggest indicator for me that Kon-El won't win this is that their fight is in #4 of a 7 issue mini.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Y'know, this "I'm right and you're wrong, admit it" line of debate never really works. If you're actually trying to convince people to agree with your point of view, there could not possibly be a worse way of going about it. Well, actually, there is one: You could hold your breath until the rest of us admit that we're all wrong for enjoying Geoff Johns' writing.

I never said you were wrong for enjoying a sloppy retcon. I said in fact that you can enjoy the sloppy retcon.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

And really... how is this a change for the better for the character?

All he does is sit around and whine about who his parents are.

I mean, how is this a change for the better?

Its just a bunch of crappy angst and whining and all that stuff that Squaresoft did with Final Fantasies 6 through 10.

Superboy's supposed to be a FUN character, and was a part of a FUN series.

But apparently, having a character wear over the same tread of carpet over and over again about 'Oh woe! I have evil genes!" is what passes as compelling.

mutters about how I write better than Johns

EDIT: And I wonder how you people can say this retcon's the best thing done to the character in one breath, but the next admit that the person that DID the retcon has basically done nothing with it?

I mean, geez.

is it just because you liked Geoff's other work that you feel it grants him immunity?

seriously, I'd like to know.

[Ultraman Max]

And really... how is this a change for the better for the character?

All he does is sit around and whine about who his parents are.

I mean, how is this a change for the better?

Its just a bunch of crappy angst and whining and all that stuff that Squaresoft did with Final Fantasies 6 through 10.

Superboy's supposed to be a FUN character, and was a part of a FUN series.

But apparently, having a character wear over the same tread of carpet over and over again about 'Oh woe! I have evil genes!" is what passes as compelling.

That's really an argument against the characterization/personality change rather than the retcon itself (per se). And I pretty much agree that the old adventurer/cadmus problem solver character is leaps and bounds better than the current SuperEMOboy variation. Granted the retcon allowed Johns to write the character this way, but it could've (perhaps) been handled differently. In theory anyways.

[drpblunt]

look all "fanboy" musings aside, the real problem i have is the 180 switch in personality. Johns used the retcon to profoundly change the personality and nature of the character from a competent and smart hero, to someone right out of "the O.C."

and after all he had been thru in 100 issues of his own book, to act like a "generic agnsty teen" is doing a diservice to the character.

the issues where he had to come to terms with the realiztion he was a clone of paul westfeld were handled much better and with more care given to the char than johns has done.

and if johns really wanted a twist, he could have made him 100 percent luthor (cause remember superboy was genetically created not to resemble westfeld in the original run, so the same could be applied to luthor)
but like i said bastard love child of supes and luther is just plain wrong.

oh and on that point, for luthor to allow his genes to be mixed with supes is so against his own character (he is the ultimate narcisist), luthor has always been portrayed as feeling superior to superman, he hates superman to his core, why would he believe mingling his dna with his most hated and reviled enemy to be a good thing, it would clash with his own personal aestetic. imo if johns wanted to add the luthor element to SB and keep in char of luthor, he would again remain 100 percent human but be 100 percent luthor. what better way to defeat superman but with a genetecally superior (in his eyes) clone of himself, plus there would not be nearly as much contunuity problems with the 1st run, when SB DNA was scanned it always came out human, no one ever scaned for the particular donor, so the luthor angle would have been fine.

and all this "well he's manifesting kryptonian powers" validating johns' assertion that SB has half kryptonian DNA is bogus, in kessels run, it was stated that the manipulated human DNA was designed to mimic all of supermans powers, the reason SB didnt exhibit them when he 1st appeared was he had been realeased too soon (the cake came out the oven too early) but as he matured he would continue to manifest additional powers.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I never said you were wrong for enjoying a sloppy retcon. I said in fact that you can enjoy the sloppy retcon.

No, you said we were wrong for thinking it isn't a sloppy retcon. I happen to think its one of the better retcons DC's done in awhile, even if they haven't really taken advantage of all the cool story possibilities yet.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

No, you said we were wrong for thinking it isn't a sloppy retcon. I happen to think its one of the better retcons DC's done in awhile, even if they haven't really taken advantage of all the cool story possibilities yet.
Its not a good retcon...

I admit its an interesting PREMISE.

That's the word you need to use: PREMISE.

But everything about that premise fissled out and died because all the creator of this very loose premise did was just some angsty whining with what used to be a fun character.

[Chris Thomas]

this is a classic 5 page thread that could have been 2 posts.

after 5 pages of debate about whether or not the retcon was possible (both scientifically and with regards to consistency with characterization) we get to the heart of the problem:


some people just don't like the retcon.

[bfrank]

don't ask 'how did one kid and a laptop fool many top scientists and several labs' but 'how did luther design connor's dna to keep it hidden from all those scientists.' but maybe he didn't plan for some 'low tech' analysis.
of course he did, he's luthor...Robin didn't find out, he was told.....

[bfrank]

Martian Manhunter and Power Girl with ease.



Let's be fair, he surprised both of them....

[bfrank]

Its not a good retcon...



That's the word you need to use: PREMISE.


and the words you need to be using are "in my opinion"....

[bfrank]

l

oh and on that point, for luthor to allow his genes to be mixed with supes is so against his own character (he is the ultimate narcisist), luthor has always been portrayed as feeling superior to superman, he hates superman to his core, why would he believe mingling his dna with his most hated and reviled enemy to be a good thing, it would clash with his own personal aestetic. imo if johns wanted to add the luthor element to SB and keep in char of luthor, he would again remain 100 percent human but be 100 percent luthor. what better way to defeat superman but with a genetecally superior (in his eyes) clone of himself, plus there would not be nearly as much contunuity problems with the 1st run, when SB DNA was scanned it always came out human, no one ever scaned for the particular donor, so the luthor angle would have been fine.


it makes perfect sense....having someone that close to him (superman) turn on him is the best way to twist the knife....

[Guts/Batman]

and the words you need to be using are "in my opinion"....

Those words are already there...

They're just like an Understood "you" at the beginning of an imperitive sentence.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Perhaps you all still don't understand:

There's a difference between a well thought out PREMISE and a well thought out STORY.

Now the idea of Johns's concept for Superboy is an INTERESTING PREMISE.

However, the execution for it, IE the STORY, not only says that the last 100 issues of the character's solo title and his adventures in "Young Justice' were irrelevent, there were also really haphazard 'oh here's what really happened' sequences that would satisfy everyone EXCEPT for the people that read said YJ books and solo title.

The EXECUTION has also been extremely slow, very heavy handed, and with zero resolution for two years now, despite the fact that extremely stupid 'deus ex' superpowers were invented to try and end it(IE Superman's 'soul vision').

I mean, if all your retcon has to go for it is to say 'Well, anyone who didn't read the character before won't think its a retcon', then...

its still a retcon. Just one that relies on deception and reader's ignorance instead of actually addressing the past.

[cmndob]

So you think the premise is good, but the execution has been weak. Well, the Lex connection was drawn the first issue, then it became a secret that one only shares with their best friend , (in this case, Tim). This was expressedly addressed in SB#7, and then in Titans Tommorow it was a huge part of the story. Then Identity Crisis and Dr Light happened, Speedy's AIDs was revealed, and Braniac and Lex let loose their plans on the Titans and Outsiders. We learned Conner had a soul, and now we're waiting for him to return as a hero. How has this story been sloppily handled? That seems like a pretty clear storytelling sequence.

[Guts/Batman]

I agree with CBF on this.

The idea is fine but the execution is lacking.

I mean, there is a better way to use the character then turning him into a whiny bitch boy that would make Anakin Skywalker bow down in reverance.

Johns has the "whiny bitch boy" act for far too long. 8 issues is more than enough of hearing Conner say "Luthor didn't clone me to help people." I want to choke him and his character out at this point.

I've almost given Johns "The big **** you." because of this.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

So you think the premise is good, but the execution has been weak. Well, the Lex connection was drawn the first issue, then it became a secret that one only shares with their best friend , (in this case, Tim). This was expressedly addressed in SB#7, and then in Titans Tommorow it was a huge part of the story. Then Identity Crisis and Dr Light happened, Speedy's AIDs was revealed, and Braniac and Lex let loose their plans on the Titans and Outsiders. We learned Conner had a soul, and now we're waiting for him to return as a hero. How has this story been sloppily handled? That seems like a pretty clear storytelling sequence.

Because every time someone tells him "You have a soul"

or "You're a good person" the very next issue he goes "I'm whiney! I won't help people and just whine all day!"

I mean, that's almost as bad as "I'm a teenager, I hate everybody!"

[Yoda]

I agree with CBF on this.

The idea is fine but the execution is lacking.

I mean, there is a better way to use the character then turning him into a whiny bitch boy that would make Anakin Skywalker bow down in reverance.

Johns has the "whiny bitch boy" act for far too long. 8 issues is more than enough of hearing Conner say "Luthor didn't clone me to help people." I want to choke him and his character out at this point.

I've almost given Johns "The big **** you." because of this.

He's been sulking for four issues. Two of which weren't written by Johns and were fill ins in which he didnt appear. He appeared in Superman and wasn't sulking. He's not a "whiny bitch boy."

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Dan Jurgens is right:

DC is after every character that ever smiled.

[Guts/Batman]

He's been sulking for four issues. Two of which weren't written by Johns and were fill ins in which he didnt appear. He appeared in Superman and wasn't sulking. He's not a "whiny bitch boy."

Ohhh...

He's a whiny bitchboy alright. He was sulking in Superman #221 alright. Seems our definition of "Whint bitch boy" is different.

IC #1, #2 and #3, TT #26, TT#24, TT #25, TT #28, Superman #221.

He's got at least 8 issues of "Luthor didn't clone me to do good."

He more than qualifies as "whiny bitch boy."

Oh wait, he isn't letting his personal issues get in the way of his responsibities to the Teen Titans and to himself, right?

No he is. That's enough to earn the "big **** you" for me.

[Guts/Batman]

Dan Jurgens is right:

DC is after every character that ever smiled.

Damn straight.

[ChaosBurnFlame]

Since I answered the questions that there's no way that Superboy's past fits with Geoff Johns's version of his present, this is indeed a retcon.

I'm bowing out, your own preferences to the sloppy retcon be damned.

[bfrank]

Those words are already there...

They're just like an Understood "you" at the beginning of an imperitive sentence.
not when you are speaking like this:

Its not a good retcon...

I admit its an interesting PREMISE.

That's the word you need to use: PREMISE.


no, sir....

[Yoda]

Ohhh...

He's a whiny bitchboy alright. He was sulking in Superman #221 alright. Seems our definition of "Whint bitch boy" is different.

IC #1, #2 and #3, TT #26, TT#24, TT #25, TT #28, Superman #221.

He's got at least 8 issues of "Luthor didn't clone me to do good."

He more than qualifies as "whiny bitch boy."

IC #1,2,3 show the same scene, the one in IC #1 - which incidentally is also the same scene as the most recent issue of TT.

TT #24 and 25 are the issues where he's under the control of Luthor, and where he's fighting the control. No whining there.

Was he even in Teen Titans #28? That was the Liefield/Simone issues.

And the issue of Superman where Superman is the one doing most of the whining.

So basically you have one scene, the one you love to quote in IC #1, that's referenced in differant issues, that you've latched onto to define the entire character.


Oh wait, he isn't letting his personal issues get in the way of his responsibities to the Teen Titans and to himself, right?

No he is. That's enough to earn the "big **** you" for me.

He was used by one of the most evil individuals in the DCU to seriously hurt and and nearly kill his closest friends. He broke the arm of his best friend, and beat his girlfriend. and all it took was a few words to activate it. He doesn't trust himself.

It's a little bit more than a "personal issue." So he has taken himself out of the hero game for a while, it's happened before to adult heros. Spider-Man has done it about fifty times over the last forty years.

It's not like Wonder Girl broke up with him and he won't answer the titans pager. That would be my definition of an unacceptable, whiny brat.

[Mister Intensity]

Dan Jurgens is right:

DC is after every character that ever smiled.

Can you please refer to the interview where he says this, I would love to read it.

Mister Intensity

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Its not a good retcon...

I admit its an interesting PREMISE.

That's the word you need to use: PREMISE.

But everything about that premise fissled out and died because all the creator of this very loose premise did was just some angsty whining with what used to be a fun character.

Okay, you have fun splitting hairs there. Goodbye

[Yoda]

Since I answered the questions that there's no way that Superboy's past fits with Geoff Johns's version of his present, this is indeed a retcon.

I'm bowing out, your own preferences to the sloppy retcon be damned.

By all means, go have fun patting yourself on the back about how much smarter you are than the rest of us over in the death spiral.

[Chris Thomas]

By all means, go have fun patting yourself on the back about how much smarter you are than the rest of us over in the death spiral.


I can't agree more. clearly chaosyadyada has dropped me back on the evolutionary ladder since I can't even figure out when he won his point and what his point was. I better quit wearing pants since this thread has shown to me that I will just crap them out of shear stupidity.