Superman Rogue Gallery

[ExoKnight]

Do you feel in the last few years that superman's rogue gallery has gotten a major upgrade. For some time alot of people have considered it kinda weak, but if you look at it he does have some impressive foes.

Preus - I really enjoyed his introduction in Godfall and the following up in Chuck Austin run. Hope to see more of him in the future.

Gog - Major bad ass.

Zod - Nicely done in For Tomorrow.

Ruin - Rucka's bad boy

Manchester Black - Although dead was a quite interesting villian.

Besides those you have the classics: Luthor, Darkseid (more a DCU villian), Brainiac, Metallo, Bizarro (villian, depends on his mood), Silver Banshee, Doomsday, etc.

I'm sure I'm missing some of major ones, but IMO that not half bad.

[Apathy Boy]

I've always thought Superman had the best rogues' gallery in all of comics. Unfortunately, they've also been horribly misused over the decades. The new villains are great, but I'd like to see DC concentrate on restoring the old villains to their former glory. Bringing Zod back was a good start; now, they just have to figure out a way to fix Brainiac, Darkseid and Metallo.

[JulianPerez]

I've always thought Superman had the best rogues' gallery in all of comics. Unfortunately, they've also been horribly misused over the decades. The new villains are great, but I'd like to see DC concentrate on restoring the old villains to their former glory. Bringing Zod back was a good start; now, they just have to figure out a way to fix Brainiac, Darkseid and Metallo.

Hear hear! Maxima and Riot are two of the few post-Byrne concepts that added to Superman instead of subtracted.

Maxima isn't a Modern Age character at all; beautiful Queen of a race of aliens that brings a man to her planet for breeding? That's some MYSTERY IN SPACE type stuff right there! Ditto for her costume...it has FINS on it! She has a great motivation and visually intriguing powers.

I would love to see a return of the Microwave Man, and Kurt Busiek has said that he loves the character and wants to use him.

I also wouldn't mind seeing a return of the Galactic Golem, who was an incredible Len Wein creation, as well as being one of the most visually striking characters in comics.

If they can find a way to use Maggin's King Kosmos that doesn't make him a Kang-clone, that could work too.

The Superman Revenge Squad ought to be brought back, not just as a team-up of Superman villains, but what they used to be: aliens out to conquer peaceful planets in flying saucers. That was one incredible story with an incredible motto: "REVENGE IS LIFE - DEATH TO SUPERMAN!"

Ultraa was more a JLA villain than a Superman villain in particular, but he's one character that can work without the continued existence of Earth-Prime (if they do bring back Earth-Prime in IC, maybe we can see a return of Ultraa).

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Do you feel in the last few years that superman's rogue gallery has gotten a major upgrade. For some time alot of people have considered it kinda weak, but if you look at it he does have some impressive foes.

Preus - I really enjoyed his introduction in Godfall and the following up in Chuck Austin run. Hope to see more of him in the future.

Gog - Major bad ass.

Zod - Nicely done in For Tomorrow.

Ruin - Rucka's bad boy

Manchester Black - Although dead was a quite interesting villian.

Besides those you have the classics: Luthor, Darkseid (more a DCU villian), Brainiac, Metallo, Bizarro (villian, depends on his mood), Silver Banshee, Doomsday, etc.

I'm sure I'm missing some of major ones, but IMO that not half bad.

I do agree.

And like Apathy Boy said, it would be great to see the classic villains restored to their former glory. But Luthor, Darkseid, Doomsday, Metallo, Preus, Ruin, Manchester Black... they all make for GREAT villains.

[megladon8]

Yes!

Zod WAS nicely done in For Tomorrow!!

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I have to admit, pretty much all the attempts to create new badass, ultra-powerful villains have left me cold because they've all come off as trying a little too hard to be badass and ultra-powerful and don't have a shred of whimsy or fun about them. They take themselves too seriously.

From my perspective, the great Superman villains are all a little ridiculous, allowing them to work just as well in light-hearted stories as they do when they're being played straight.

Luthor can work as a stone-cold master criminal or a goofy mad scientist.

Bizarro can be very funny or extremely scary. And, as Alan Moore showed, the same goes for Mr. Mxylplknkexpialadotious.

Zod can be Hitler/Lucifer with Superman's powers or as just some crook trying to weasel his way outta jail.

Brainiac can be an emotionless machine or goofy green alien in shortpants.

The same cannot really be said of Ruin or Preus or Gog. They're all kinda one-note. Which is good for a one time deal, but I doubt any of these characters will have any staying power as a result.

[protege]

Hear hear! Maxima and Riot are two of the few post-Byrne concepts that added to Superman instead of subtracted.

Maxima isn't a Modern Age character at all; beautiful Queen of a race of aliens that brings a man to her planet for breeding? That's some MYSTERY IN SPACE type stuff right there! Ditto for her costume...it has FINS on it! She has a great motivation and visually intriguing powers.

I would love to see a return of the Microwave Man, and Kurt Busiek has said that he loves the character and wants to use him.

I also wouldn't mind seeing a return of the Galactic Golem, who was an incredible Len Wein creation, as well as being one of the most visually striking characters in comics.

If they can find a way to use Maggin's King Kosmos that doesn't make him a Kang-clone, that could work too.

The Superman Revenge Squad ought to be brought back, not just as a team-up of Superman villains, but what they used to be: aliens out to conquer peaceful planets in flying saucers. That was one incredible story with an incredible motto: "REVENGE IS LIFE - DEATH TO SUPERMAN!"

Ultraa was more a JLA villain than a Superman villain in particular, but he's one character that can work without the continued existence of Earth-Prime (if they do bring back Earth-Prime in IC, maybe we can see a return of Ultraa).
Maxima's dead, isn't she? And what's this i hear about a new female, Parasite?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Yes!

Zod WAS nicely done in For Tomorrow!!

Agreed. I generally don't like the notion of other Kryptonians existing in the DCU besides Superman. Like I said, Superman should be the last Kryptonian, the only one. But Zod, although a Kryptonian, never got out of the Phantom Zone, which technically makes Superman to remain as the last Kryptonian. Besides, he was just too cool. I mean, TOO COOL.

[stealthwise]

Agreed. I generally don't like the notion of other Kryptonians existing in the DCU besides Superman. Like I said, Superman should be the last Kryptonian, the only one. But Zod, although a Kryptonian, never got out of the Phantom Zone, which technically makes Superman to remain as the last Kryptonian.

Er... Supergirl?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Maxima's dead, isn't she? And what's this i hear about a new female, Parasite?

The female Parasite was originally part of a two-Parasites team. They were two brothers genetically modified by Ruin to become the new Parasites.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Er... Supergirl?

I hate her so much that I just ignore her.

Damn you, Loeb.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I have to admit, pretty much all the attempts to create new badass, ultra-powerful villains have left me cold because they've all come off as trying a little too hard to be badass and ultra-powerful and don't have a shred of whimsy or fun about them. They take themselves too seriously.

From my perspective, the great Superman villains are all a little ridiculous, allowing them to work just as well in light-hearted stories as they do when they're being played straight.

Luthor can work as a stone-cold master criminal or a goofy mad scientist.

Bizarro can be very funny or extremely scary. And, as Alan Moore showed, the same goes for Mr. Mxylplknkexpialadotious.

Zod can be Hitler/Lucifer with Superman's powers or as just some crook trying to weasel his way outta jail.

Brainiac can be an emotionless machine or goofy green alien in shortpants.

The same cannot really be said of Ruin or Preus or Gog. They're all kinda one-note. Which is good for a one time deal, but I doubt any of these characters will have any staying power as a result.

Hmmm... I guess this depends on tastes. For example, I find Preus as a fascinating villain, mainly because we had never seen a villain like him in the Superman comics. And I love Ruin and Gog. However, by saying this I don't mean I hate the others (Luthor, for example, is THE villain).

I just like to see variety in the villains motivations and personality.

[JulianPerez]

I have to admit, pretty much all the attempts to create new badass, ultra-powerful villains have left me cold because they've all come off as trying a little too hard to be badass and ultra-powerful and don't have a shred of whimsy or fun about them. They take themselves too seriously.

From my perspective, the great Superman villains are all a little ridiculous, allowing them to work just as well in light-hearted stories as they do when they're being played straight.

Hear hear!

I feel the same way. A priority has been given to demonstrating how dangerous and effective a Superman villain IS, instead of giving them personalities and complex motivations. The Mad Thinker was never more interesting than in his early appearance in AVENGERS #26 when he was after Tony Stark's electronic secrets or the Gray Golem in early MIGHTY THOR, when he wanted the secret of Thor's immortality.

This is why, I'd say, of the post-Byrne villains, the best two are Maxima and Riot; they don't break the earth in half, but they have interesting personalities and motivation: one is out for the mightiest man in the universe to sire her children, the other just wants a good night's sleep.

Some Superman villains like for instance, Amalgamax (Composite Superman), are interesting because they are more powerful than Superman and can give him a good fight. I don't think this is why Superman's villains work, however. Elliot S! Maggin, one of the greatest Superman writers, said that (paraphrased) "Superman's stories are never more interesting when they are about choices and dillemmas. This is why straight fights don't work for him."

The same cannot really be said of Ruin or Preus or Gog. They're all kinda one-note. Which is good for a one time deal, but I doubt any of these characters will have any staying power as a result.

Mysterious master villains often keep mysterious to cover their lack of personality. Am I the only one that thinks they stick to dark corners because they want to hide the fact their eyebrows grow together? :)

Agreed. I generally don't like the notion of other Kryptonians existing in the DCU besides Superman. Like I said, Superman should be the last Kryptonian, the only one.

I totally disagree with this statement. Superman being the only survivor is a very poor, arbitrary edict to make for three reasons:

1) Superman doesn't have to be the ONLY survivor to make Krypton's destruction a tragedy. Krypton was wonderful and THEN...it's gone. No more Fire Falls or gold volcano. Further, the presence of additional Kryptonians makes the loss of Krypton all the more heart-wrenching: suddenly Superman and Supergirl are celebrating Kryptonian holidays and lighting their space-menorahs in rites that are meaningful to them, or the Kandorians donning black headbands on the anniversary of the destruction of Krypton.

2) It closes the door to future stories. It says "no, this can't happen" to future stories, and that's the worst thing that anything in serial fiction can do. Remember when DC had an edict for no time travel after Crisis? Did that last all of five weeks? Why? Because it shut the door to Time Travel stories.

3) Superman's Kryptonian supporting cast was AMAZING! I don't just mean the wonderful, cute Kara Zor-El (I agree with you; the belly shaking Johns version can't hold a candle to the original) I mean the Superman Emergency Squad: what a totally surreal visual: being rescued by hundreds of tiny Supermen! I mean characters like Faora (incidentally, why she never used Super-Hypnotism is a mystery to me), King Krypton, Dr. Kim-Da, Circe the Sorceress, Van-Zee, the "juvenile delinquent" Dev-Em, the adorable and poignant Krypto, and the robot Super-Teacher.

Superman and his world are all the richer and all the stronger for the presence of these characters. If they did not come from Krypton, their connection would be less meaningful and their presence would make much less sense.

Look at all the wonderful stories that were told involving the Bottled City of Kandor. Why does Kandor have to be Kryptonian, though? Several reasons:

If it is from Krypton, it is in Superman's collection and world for a REASON. Superman's desire to restore it to normal is much more urgent because there is an emotional connection.

Krypton was just plain NEAT, and to have a piece of it remaining that can be used to propel stories is very powerful. As a plot thread it can be used in all kinds of ways - remember when Lois Lane learned Klurkor there?

[Guts/Batman]

Ruin is ick...

Rucka could have done that reveal and story much better. He didn't have to making Ruin Superman's Hush...

[choptop]

Ruin is ick...

Rucka could have done that reveal and story much better. He didn't have to making Ruin Superman's Hush...
hmmm mabay Ruin is hush. :D

[Guts/Batman]

I wouldn't doubt it.

As soon as the identity of the characters becomes painfully obvious, they must change the identity to keep the story going...

Yay.

I mean...there is a reason why Hush is a complete joke of a character.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I totally disagree with this statement. Superman being the only survivor is a very poor, arbitrary edict to make for three reasons:

1) Superman doesn't have to be the ONLY survivor to make Krypton's destruction a tragedy. Krypton was wonderful and THEN...it's gone. No more Fire Falls or gold volcano. Further, the presence of additional Kryptonians makes the loss of Krypton all the more heart-wrenching: suddenly Superman and Supergirl are celebrating Kryptonian holidays and lighting their space-menorahs in rites that are meaningful to them, or the Kandorians donning black headbands on the anniversary of the destruction of Krypton.

I didn't say it for the "tragedy" part, but because I think there's this uniqueness about the character (OK, even without him being the last, he's Superman, and he's still unique). Some of that uniqueness is taken away by the existence of another one just like him. There's something special about Superman being the only Kryptonian left in the universe.

It would be nice to see Superman celebrating some of those rites, but I see the existence of this Kara Zor-El as something annoying, that adds nothing to the Superman mythos.

2) It closes the door to future stories. It says "no, this can't happen" to future stories, and that's the worst thing that anything in serial fiction can do. Remember when DC had an edict for no time travel after Crisis? Did that last all of five weeks? Why? Because it shut the door to Time Travel stories.

I disagree. I mean, there's this thing called "Blood Of My Ancestors". And although I haven't read it, I know it deals with Krypton. And note that at the time, there was no Supergirl Kara Zor-El.

3) Superman's Kryptonian supporting cast was AMAZING! I don't just mean the wonderful, cute Kara Zor-El (I agree with you; the belly shaking Johns version can't hold a candle to the original) I mean the Superman Emergency Squad: what a totally surreal visual: being rescued by hundreds of tiny Supermen! I mean characters like Faora (incidentally, why she never used Super-Hypnotism is a mystery to me), King Krypton, Dr. Kim-Da, Circe the Sorceress, Van-Zee, the "juvenile delinquent" Dev-Em, the adorable and poignant Krypto, and the robot Super-Teacher.

For some reason, back in the day I could even enjoy the original Supergirl stories. I even managed to get a few. But now it's different, I think. I mean, what's with the need of having a female counterpart of every character (something I said in another thread)? BTW, Krypto is a character that I can get along with. Not a real Kryptonian, though.


Superman and his world are all the richer and all the stronger for the presence of these characters. If they did not come from Krypton, their connection would be less meaningful and their presence would make much less sense.

Point taken. If they exist, they must have a connection with Krypton.

Look at all the wonderful stories that were told involving the Bottled City of Kandor. Why does Kandor have to be Kryptonian, though? Several reasons:

If it is from Krypton, it is in Superman's collection and world for a REASON. Superman's desire to restore it to normal is much more urgent because there is an emotional connection.

Krypton was just plain NEAT, and to have a piece of it remaining that can be used to propel stories is very powerful. As a plot thread it can be used in all kinds of ways - remember when Lois Lane learned Klurkor there?

Current Kandor, although is a Kryptonian city, it is not populated by Kryptonians. Preus and the female character that appeared during Godfall (whose name I don't remember) are an example. However, I do agree that several stories can still be told using Kandor.

I also agree with the fact that Krypton is just NEAT. However, there are many things that can still be explored using Krypton as the launching point, without the existence of other Kryptonians. For example:

1. According to Mark Waid, The House Of El (talking Birthright here) was the single most important dynasty ever in Krypton's history. What was its role in Krypton's evolution?

2. Have you read a mini called The Kansas Sighting? Another story regarding Jor-El, and therefore Krypton's legacy. And there's no Supergirl.

3. What's the deal with Rao? Remember that during Loeb/Casey/Kelly/Schultz's run there were hints regarding something that happened between Rao and the Quintessence, ar at least Zeus (Pantheon Of The Gods storyarc)? This is something we never got the answer for.

4. And what about Torquasm-Vo/Rao? Never got to see more of that. And you don't need Supergirl Kara Zor-El to have more of that.

My two cents, anyway.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I don't see how the survival of Supergirl or Zod or the rest of the Phantom Zone criminals for that matter really effects Superman's status as the Last Son of Krypton. Kara is the Last Daughter of Krypton and the Phantom Zone criminals rejected Krypton and essentially become demons trapped in sci-fi Hell, with Kal & Kara as the only two angels left from a sci-fi Heaven that was destroyed.

Too many Kryptonians definitely dilutes the concept, but I don't see how allowing one man and one girl to survive really makes a huge impact. There's still a giant chunk of Superman's history for writers to play with where he believes himself to be the only survivor of Krypton, but there's also a big chunk were he wasn't. Both can be represented. It would be a big mistake to completely restrict and ignore a creative playground that has proven to be very successful in the past.

[Immaterial_Girl]

I've always thought Superman had the best rogues' gallery in all of comics. Unfortunately, they've also been horribly misused over the decades. The new villains are great, but I'd like to see DC concentrate on restoring the old villains to their former glory. Bringing Zod back was a good start; now, they just have to figure out a way to fix Brainiac, Darkseid and Metallo.


I disagree completely. Superman's rogues gallery used to be the joke of all jokes: Mr. Myxzptlk, the Toyman, the Prankster, Bizarro, Terra-man, etc. Now, as Bored said, the new villains are all uber-powerful but lack any sense of creativity as far as their origins and characterization are concerned.

SA Flash had the best rogues gallery and, after it was revitalized by Geoff Johns, remains better than either Bats or Superman. The writers and editors of the Big Two keep coming up with Johnny One-Note villains: Bats' are all nuts and Supes' are all Sun-eaters.

[Apathy Boy]

I disagree completely. Superman's rogues gallery used to be the joke of all jokes: Mr. Myxzptlk, the Toyman, the Prankster, Bizarro, Terra-man, etc. Now, as Bored said, the new villains are all uber-powerful but lack any sense of creativity as far as their origins and characterization are concerned.

SA Flash had the best rogues gallery and, after it was revitalized by Geoff Johns, remains better than either Bats or Superman. The writers and editors of the Big Two keep coming up with Johnny One-Note villains: Bats' are all nuts and Supes' are all Sun-eaters.I actually think Superman has the most diverse Rogue's Gallery in comics, both in terms of types of threats and motivation.

As you mentioned, Superman has a number of goofy (but formidable) opponents such as Myxy, Bizarro and Titano. And yes, he has lame-o villains like Toyman, Prankster and Terra Man. But he also has legitimate A-list villains like Lex Luthor, Brainiac and Zod (and depending on if you want to include him, Darkseid). He has great second-tier villains like Metallo and the Parasite, and recent additions like Doomsday, Gog and Manchester Black.

So you have criminal masterminds, physical powerhouses, magical entities, telepaths, evil dopplegangers, technological threats and aliens. You have villains who are in it for the money, villains who want to take over the world (or universe), villains looking for a good time, villains who hate Superman for ideological reasons, villains who hate Superman for personal reasons, villains who want to replace Superman, villains just trying to survive, and others who are just plain ol' psychopaths.

Nobody can touch Superman's rogues gallery when it comes to variety.

[Guts/Batman]

I don't consider Darkseid a Superman villain. He is more of a DCU villain because of his sheer power and he does control the OE, afterall.

I do not consider Post-Crisis Darkseid the leigitimate Darkseid.

[JulianPerez]

I think Superman is special for reasons apart from the fact that he was the only Kryptonian, and these characteristics are strong enough to make him special no matter HOW many Kryptonians are around. The emotional significance of Krypton and its role in the super-mythos is that it was destroyed, not that Superman was the ONLY survivor.

This was a movement in the 1990s that I disagree with; that a character is made all the better if they are "unique." Captain Marvel was made all the more interesting because he had a strong supporting cast consisting of dozens of family members, including Beautia and Magnificus, the Lieutenant Marvels (including the radioactively politically incorrect Hillbilly Marvel) and foes like Mr. Atom, Mr. Tawny, the Talking Tiger, and the crocodile men from Punkus.

Green Lantern was all the more interesting because he was not the only Green Lantern in existence; he was a cog in a vast machine. There were thousands of other Green Lanterns, from Mogo the planet to one that's a living virus that has to be kept in a tube.

It would be nice to see Superman celebrating some of those rites,

Agreed. Superman's Kryptonian heritage ought not to be ignored, because despite all his powers it is this that makes him sympathetic: he was lonely, an exile, who loved earth but could never really be a part of it.

but I see the existence of this Kara Zor-El as something annoying, that adds nothing to the Superman mythos.

If Supergirl had Superman's exact same personality, I would agree with you, however, Supergirl had her own unique identity. She was not a "redundancy" that duplicated the characteristics of the main character: she was a sweet, ditzy All-American girl, very different from the patriarchial, all-wise, always mature Superman. Supergirl had her own kind of stories, too: while Superman's tended to deal with science fiction menaces such as the Futuremen, Luthor, Brainiac, and the Superman Revenge Squad, Supergirl fought fantasy type creatures. She even had her own supporting cast, from Dick Malverne to Bronco Bill Star, to Lex Luthor's psychic sister, Lena Thorul.

It is for this reason that on other threads I insist that if Batwoman is to return to her rightful place in the DCU, Batwoman must wear her gold and red and use her lipstick darts and utility purse. Batwoman is not Batman with breasts.

I mean, what's with the need of having a female counterpart of every character (something I said in another thread)?

As an old Marvel Family fan I don't know if I agree with this statement; what's the point of having a superpowered rabbit in your superhero family? The answer, of course, to have a superpowered rabbit in your superhero family!

Valkyrie was one character that was in concept, a female version of another character (Keith Giffen once called her "She-Thor"), that was as a result of a genius like Englehart, made in many ways MORE interesting than the character she was blueprinted after. It really says something that in DEFENDERS, which featured showy characters like Namor and Dr. Strange, it was the Valkyrie that stole the show, with her struggles with her split personality and her poignant love for a man she had never met who had been turned to stone.

(Plus, the winged horse was pretty cool.)

Many, many female characters based on the blueprint of a male hero have managed to acquire their own personality and are not simply an appendage of the main character. These include She-Hulk (very different from the Hulk), Mary Marvel, and the aforementioned Batwoman.

BTW, Krypto is a character that I can get along with. Not a real Kryptonian, though.

Well, Krypto is from Krypton.

Here's a question: would you be in favor of a character like, for example, the Flame Dragon of Krypton, who is from Krypton but is not a humanoid denizen of that planet? Or someone like King Krypton, who is a Krypton scientist's brain in the body of a Kryptonian Gorilla?

1. According to Mark Waid, The House Of El (talking Birthright here) was the single most important dynasty ever in Krypton's history. What was its role in Krypton's evolution?

While I agree with your general sentiment (that future stories can be told involving Krypton) this particular story that you're bringing up here has already been done: one of the greatest Superman stories ever, E. Nelson Bridwell's amazing KRYPTON CHRONICLES, which explored the history of Krypton as seen through the descent of the El family.

3. What's the deal with Rao? Remember that during Loeb/Casey/Kelly/Schultz's run there were hints regarding something that happened between Rao and the Quintessence, ar at least Zeus (Pantheon Of The Gods storyarc)? This is something we never got the answer for.

There are a lot of questions about Kryptonian religion that do remain unanswered.

Krypton had multiple deities in addition to Rao, worshipped in Krypton's past, such as Yuda, goddess of Krypton's Moons, and Kara, the Kryptonian goddess of beauty.

I don't see how the survival of Supergirl or Zod or the rest of the Phantom Zone criminals for that matter really effects Superman's status as the Last Son of Krypton.

I don't see why heaven and earth have to be moved so that there is literal truth to a bumper sticker catch phrase associated with a character. Byrne and Wolfman did everything he could to make sure Superman was the last Kryptonian to make that line true, which shows their shallow knowledge of Superman's characterization, that it is defined by catch phrases.

In the Silver Age, Captain Comet was called the "Man of Destiny." Does that mean he has to be given a "fate sense" or become the personification of destiny? No; it was a dramatic sobriquet; Captain Comet had his own origin and power suite that suit him just fine.

[JulianPerez]

I don't consider Darkseid a Superman villain. He is more of a DCU villain because of his sheer power and he does control the OE, afterall.

Ahhhh, but you see, Darkseid first appeared in SUPERMAN'S PAL, JIMMY OLSEN. Superman was the first DC hero to battle Darkseid thanks to his regular guest-appearances in FOREVER PEOPLE. If Darkseid is ANYBODY's villain, it's Superman. In fact, there's a line of argument left open for someone else to pursue that says that the Fourth World, like LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES, is essentially a Superman spin-off.

I do not consider Post-Crisis Darkseid the leigitimate Darkseid.

Maybe; post-Crisis he hasn't gotten a mindblowing story (the less said about Byrne's Fourth World, the better) but he has had some alright ones. "Rock of Ages" was cool if you turn your brain off, sort of like the movie ARMAGEDDON.

COSMIC ODYSSEY was a good, underrated crossover with blob monsters, Hawkships, and Mike Mignola art. Though try to ignore Forager's death and the goofy idea that anti-life was in reality a space monster of some kind.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I don't see how the survival of Supergirl or Zod or the rest of the Phantom Zone criminals for that matter really effects Superman's status as the Last Son of Krypton. Kara is the Last Daughter of Krypton and the Phantom Zone criminals rejected Krypton and essentially become demons trapped in sci-fi Hell, with Kal & Kara as the only two angels left from a sci-fi Heaven that was destroyed.

Too many Kryptonians definitely dilutes the concept, but I don't see how allowing one man and one girl to survive really makes a huge impact. There's still a giant chunk of Superman's history for writers to play with where he believes himself to be the only survivor of Krypton, but there's also a big chunk were he wasn't. Both can be represented. It would be a big mistake to completely restrict and ignore a creative playground that has proven to be very successful in the past.

I see your point, but I stand by mine. I don't see the purpose for Kara's existence. As for the creative playground that you talk about, it's true that with a new character, you have new teritories to explore. But then again, I see Superman as a totally unique being, in the sense that he is the only survivor of an entire civilization. No one else is like him, ar at least shouldn't be. Get my point?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I see your point, but I stand by mine. I don't see the purpose for Kara's existence. As for the creative playground that you talk about, it's true that with a new character, you have new teritories to explore. But then again, I see Superman as a totally unique being, in the sense that he is the only survivor of an entire civilization. No one else is like him, ar at least shouldn't be. Get my point?

Oh, I definitely get your point, but my point is that there's decades of Superman history wherein he's the only survivor of Krypton and there's decades of Superman history where he discovers there are other survivors. Both periods have good stories and have their fans. To deny all those stories and fans when you can easily have both doesn't strike me as a particularly wise move.

You can easily have Superman be alone and unique for the first half of his career and then discover he's not alone in the second half and tell both kind of stories. Everyone's happy.

Or you can say that half of those stories aren't allowed to be told anymore because there can only be one interpretation of Superman.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I think Superman is special for reasons apart from the fact that he was the only Kryptonian, and these characteristics are strong enough to make him special no matter HOW many Kryptonians are around. The emotional significance of Krypton and its role in the super-mythos is that it was destroyed, not that Superman was the ONLY survivor.

That is true. He is special for other reasons (yep, I said that even if he wasn't the only Kryptonian left, he'd still be unique), but I think that one of the things that make him special is that he is the last of his rece.


This was a movement in the 1990s that I disagree with; that a character is made all the better if they are "unique." Captain Marvel was made all the more interesting because he had a strong supporting cast consisting of dozens of family members, including Beautia and Magnificus, the Lieutenant Marvels (including the radioactively politically incorrect Hillbilly Marvel) and foes like Mr. Atom, Mr. Tawny, the Talking Tiger, and the crocodile men from Punkus.

Although I agree that the supporting cast is something that adds to the character, I also think that a character's existence in a universe must be justified, beyond the sense of being cool and having a great supporting cast. Let's put it this way: what's Superman's purpose in the DCU, powerwise speaking (like we both agreed on, there are other reasons besides being the last: for example, his role in the DCU as a leader, an inspiration, and so on. But follow me for a second here), if there's another one just like him? Wouldn't it be annoying - or redundant - to see someone else that reaches the same speeds as The Flash?

Green Lantern was all the more interesting because he was not the only Green Lantern in existence; he was a cog in a vast machine. There were thousands of other Green Lanterns, from Mogo the planet to one that's a living virus that has to be kept in a tube.

But that was part of GL's story from the very beginning, right? (correct me if I'm wrong).

Agreed. Superman's Kryptonian heritage ought not to be ignored, because despite all his powers it is this that makes him sympathetic: he was lonely, an exile, who loved earth but could never really be a part of it.

I agree with you 100%. I wonder when will we see some of that.

If Supergirl had Superman's exact same personality, I would agree with you, however, Supergirl had her own unique identity. She was not a "redundancy" that duplicated the characteristics of the main character: she was a sweet, ditzy All-American girl, very different from the patriarchial, all-wise, always mature Superman. Supergirl had her own kind of stories, too: while Superman's tended to deal with science fiction menaces such as the Futuremen, Luthor, Brainiac, and the Superman Revenge Squad, Supergirl fought fantasy type creatures. She even had her own supporting cast, from Dick Malverne to Bronco Bill Star, to Lex Luthor's psychic sister, Lena Thorul.

That's OK. And like I said in my previous post, I managed to like the original Kara. But current Kara I don't like. What's her purpose, other than being another character, who also comes from Krypton, has a female version of Superman's suit, and on top of that, seems to be more powerful than Superman himself? And besides, her origin doesn't make any sense. Why was she brought back?

As an old Marvel Family fan I don't know if I agree with this statement; what's the point of having a superpowered rabbit in your superhero family? The answer, of course, to have a superpowered rabbit in your superhero family!

But only if it makes sense, IMO.

Well, Krypto is from Krypton.

That is Pre-Crisis Krypto. Current Krypto comes from a fake Krypton created by Brainiac-13.

Here's a question: would you be in favor of a character like, for example, the Flame Dragon of Krypton, who is from Krypton but is not a humanoid denizen of that planet? Or someone like King Krypton, who is a Krypton scientist's brain in the body of a Kryptonian Gorilla?

I don't know. Perhaps I'd do. We're not talking about a Kryptonian humanoid, and it would be a way to keep Krypton's history alive. Like I said, I kinda like Krypto.

While I agree with your general sentiment (that future stories can be told involving Krypton) this particular story that you're bringing up here has already been done: one of the greatest Superman stories ever, E. Nelson Bridwell's amazing KRYPTON CHRONICLES, which explored the history of Krypton as seen through the descent of the El family.

Hmmm... I take that this story you mention is Pre-Crisis. Is it collected?

As for my comment, I meant Birthright's Krypton.

There are a lot of questions about Kryptonian religion that do remain unanswered.

Krypton had multiple deities in addition to Rao, worshipped in Krypton's past, such as Yuda, goddess of Krypton's Moons, and Kara, the Kryptonian goddess of beauty.

And Cythonna (sp?), goddes of Ice.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Oh, I definitely get your point, but my point is that there's decades of Superman history wherein he's the only survivor of Krypton and there's decades of Superman history where he discovers there are other survivors. Both periods have good stories and have their fans. To deny all those stories and fans when you can easily have both doesn't strike me as a particularly wise move.

You can easily have Superman be alone and unique for the first half of his career and then discover he's not alone in the second half and tell both kind of stories. Everyone's happy.

Or you can say that half of those stories aren't allowed to be told anymore because there can only be one interpretation of Superman.

I'm not denying what happened Pre-Crisis (see my previous post). But I think that in current times, it isn't something right to do. I could be wrong, though. But that's the way I see it. I just don't like current Supergirl, there was no reason to bring her back, IMO.

[JulianPerez]

But that was part of GL's story from the very beginning, right? (correct me if I'm wrong).

Well, yes...and no. In the very first of the Broome Green Lantern stories, the Lantern itself issued forth a voice that commanded Hal Jordan to perform deeds on other planets and so forth, and it was not known where it came from. Only after a little while did we learn about the Guardians and the GL Corps. So in a sense, the concept was there from the beginning but it unfolded out for us.

If only the internet and comic book fandom was around in the fifties - one wonders what fan speculation the "mysterious voice" would give rise to!

That's OK. And like I said in my previous post, I managed to like the original Kara. But current Kara I don't like. What's her purpose, other than being another character, who also comes from Krypton, has a female version of Superman's suit, and on top of that, seems to be more powerful than Superman himself? And besides, her origin doesn't make any sense. Why was she brought back?

No argument here. The presence of Kara in "classic" Superman made sense, whereas here it doesn't seem they thought things through. If they're GOING to bring Superman's cousin back, why not bring back her origin and personality too?

I'm actually rather bothered by the idea of that belly shirt and dialogue like "my belly keeps the bad guys from looking at my fists." Now, I'm not some prude or anything, but Kara wasn't a tart. That's the total antithesis of her sweet, girl-next-door personality. It, and the presence of "good girl" artist Michael Turner, shows a disturbing desire to make a character like Kara a sex symbol instead of a likeable character.

Hmmm... I take that this story you mention is Pre-Crisis. Is it collected?

Unfortunately, no, it isn't collected to my knowledge.

It is available online, however:

KRYPTON CHRONICLES - the Saga of Superman's Amazing Ancestors (http://superman.ws/tales2/chronicles/1/)

[Guts/Batman]

Ahhhh, but you see, Darkseid first appeared in SUPERMAN'S PAL, JIMMY OLSEN. Superman was the first DC hero to battle Darkseid thanks to his regular guest-appearances in FOREVER PEOPLE. If Darkseid is ANYBODY's villain, it's Superman. In fact, there's a line of argument left open for someone else to pursue that says that the Fourth World, like LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES, is essentially a Superman spin-off.

He's a JLA, JSA, and LEGION (combined) wrecker. You're gonna call that a Superman rogue.

Mindraped 3 billion PC Daxamites...etc. You're gonna call that a Superman rogue?

Okaaaay. Be my guest but I don't think Im traveling on that boat.

Maybe; post-Crisis he hasn't gotten a mindblowing story (the less said about Byrne's Fourth World, the better) but he has had some alright ones. "Rock of Ages" was cool if you turn your brain off, sort of like the movie ARMAGEDDON.

Turning my brain off to read a comic is the last thing I want to do as comic book reader. A writer should make me wanna keep my brain from wanting to choke him out after I read the story.

Identity Crisis made me wanna do the same thing. Darkseid in S/B made me just say "Screw you, Loeb. I'm not buying any of your current stuff."

[Rugal 3:16]

Zod, Gog, Luthor and Darkseid are the only ones I can see as a REAL threat to Superman because these villains are..

take note..

WORLD THREATS!!

Other villains like Bizarro, Metallo, Parasite are IMO not credible super-threats since..

THEY ARE NOW WORLD THREATS..

HAh! with the possible exception of Bizarro I see the Spider-man's rogues (venom, goblin, and Ock) being more threats than Parasite, Metallo, Toyman etc. not to mention Venom alone could probably beat those.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Well, yes...and no. In the very first of the Broome Green Lantern stories, the Lantern itself issued forth a voice that commanded Hal Jordan to perform deeds on other planets and so forth, and it was not known where it came from. Only after a little while did we learn about the Guardians and the GL Corps. So in a sense, the concept was there from the beginning but it unfolded out for us.

Thanx for clearing that up. I hope you get my point with this example.

No argument here. The presence of Kara in "classic" Superman made sense, whereas here it doesn't seem they thought things through. If they're GOING to bring Superman's cousin back, why not bring back her origin and personality too?

Oh, they didn't. And it wasn't "they", but "he". Jeph Loeb is guilty for this torment.

I'm actually rather bothered by the idea of that belly shirt and dialogue like "my belly keeps the bad guys from looking at my fists." Now, I'm not some prude or anything, but Kara wasn't a tart. That's the total antithesis of her sweet, girl-next-door personality. It, and the presence of "good girl" artist Michael Turner, shows a disturbing desire to make a character like Kara a sex symbol instead of a likeable character.

Aye. Character first, looks second. You can draw her a hottie, but give her a story, too.

Unfortunately, no, it isn't collected to my knowledge.

It is available online, however:

KRYPTON CHRONICLES - the Saga of Superman's Amazing Ancestors (http://superman.ws/tales2/chronicles/1/)

Julian, you rock.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Zod, Gog, Luthor and Darkseid are the only ones I can see as a REAL threat to Superman because these villains are..

take note..

WORLD THREATS!!

Other villains like Bizarro, Metallo, Parasite are IMO not credible super-threats since..

THEY ARE NOW WORLD THREATS..

HAh! with the possible exception of Bizarro I see the Spider-man's rogues (venom, goblin, and Ock) being more threats than Parasite, Metallo, Toyman etc. not to mention Venom alone could probably beat those.

Hmmm...

I do see Parasite as a threat. Not because he's a threat to the world, but because he's a threat to Superman.

But I agree with your sentiment: Superman should deal only with world/galaxy/universe-level threats, and not with mere burglars and thiefs (with the exception of Luthor. He's no ordinary man).

[Nighthawk]

I love Brainiac1. He is so classic and just evil that he's great. In Alex Ross' JUSTICE he is done so brilliantly, and though I think Smallville could be better in most ways, Brainiac is done brilliantly (As are Lex, Zod, Flash, Aquaman, and Lois Lane).

But anyway my top five Superman Villains(in no particular order)
Lex Luthor(Favorite Villain ever((Tied with the Joker))
Brainiac(Creepy Cyborg, who hates humans just as much as he hates superman)
Parasite(Like a vampire but with the skin like an open sore)
Zod(Villain of Krypton, he wants the 'son of Jor-El')
Batman(The only one to beat superman)

[JulianPerez]

There are some enemies whose power level has inexplicably increased to the point that they can actually be a credible physical threat to Superman, who certainly did not begin that way.

One example of this is Mongul the Space-Tyrant. When he first appeared, he was a foe of the Martian Manhunter, who easily bested Mongul. Mongul first battled Superman when it occurs to Mongul that Superman was more powerful than the Martian Manhunter, so if he could trick Superman into fighting John Jones, his problem would be solved.

So, according to this:

Superman > Martian Manhunter > Mongul

It's rather a surprise come SUPERMAN ANNUAL #11 (1985) where Mongul is seen knocking the stuffing out of "classic" Superman up and down the Fortress of Solitude.

Same thing with Darkseid.

There is nowhere, anything to indicate in Kirby's original work that Darkseid's physical prowess is anywhere even approaching that of Superman. In fact, the DC Heroes Mayfair roleplaying game gave Superman a Strength of 45, and Darkseid one of 18, and if you're familiar with that system, the two aren't even in the same weight class. A Superman-high power level is overkill and rather inappropriate for the rather subtle, plotting character that Darkseid was.

Here's a question I've always wondered about: why is it Faora never used Super-Hypnotism? A dominatrix like her would never resist the chance to so thoroughly dominate another person mentally the way Faora would be able to with Super-Hypnotism. Perhaps this is one super-power that the less experienced Phantom Zone criminals do not know how to use?

(It's in the ADVANCED book of Superpowers, maybe, and they're still in the INTERMEDIATE audio tapes. :) )

Faora, the Phantom Zone criminal, may be one foe in Superman's Rogues Gallery that is in many ways more powerful than Superman as a result of her mastery of the Martial Art of Horu-Kanu, which allowed her to kill twelve men on Krypton WITHOUT her powers. It's actually rather terrifying to imagine what she'd do on Earth. Superman has demonstrated mastery of Klurkor (Kryptonian Karate), and it's suggested he knows some earthly Martial Arts too, including Judo, but it's very likely any such fight would go to the tigress here.

He's a JLA, JSA, and LEGION (combined) wrecker. You're gonna call that a Superman rogue.

Mindraped 3 billion PC Daxamites...etc. You're gonna call that a Superman rogue?

Actually, the story you just brought up is proof that Darkseid doesn't entirely belong to the entire universe. Because while "Great Darkness" may have been a good story, but it wasn't a Legion story.

It did not involve Legion enemies or supporting cast, it only peripherally used Legion story elements such as Xeerox the Sorceror's World, and apart from brief one panel cameos by the Wanderers, Validus, and the Champions of Lallor did not feature Legion history or previous Legion stories.

Someone once said that "The Inner Light" was the greatest STAR TREK: NEXT GENERATION episode. I can't agree; it was interesting, but it was about some guy on some planet whose life Picard is experiencing. It didn't have the Starship Enterprise, Commander Riker, the Klingons, the Borg, or even Picard being Picard. Thus, while it may be good television it cannot possibly be the greatest STAR TREK episode ever.

Everybody always talks about how great "Great Darkness" was. I for one, never saw it; Levitz is great and all, but he's following Jimmy Shooter and Cary Bates's LEGION runs and those are tough acts to follow.

[The Mirrorball Man]

There is nowhere, anything to indicate in Kirby's original work that Darkseid's physical prowess is anywhere even approaching that of Superman. In fact, the DC Heroes Mayfair roleplaying game gave Superman a Strength of 45, and Darkseid one of 18, and if you're familiar with that system, the two aren't even in the same weight class.
That's from the first edition, and the first edition is pre-Crisis. In the post-Crisis 2nd and 3rd editions, both Superman and Darkseid have a Strength of 25.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

There are some enemies whose power level has inexplicably increased to the point that they can actually be a credible physical threat to Superman, who certainly did not begin that way.

It gets annoying, doesn't it? All of a sudden, Superman is weaker than everyone else. I see it just as PIS so the rest of the characters looks cool (i.e., Bat-god).

Faora, the Phantom Zone criminal, may be one foe in Superman's Rogues Gallery that is in many ways more powerful than Superman as a result of her mastery of the Martial Art of Horu-Kanu, which allowed her to kill twelve men on Krypton WITHOUT her powers. It's actually rather terrifying to imagine what she'd do on Earth. Superman has demonstrated mastery of Klurkor (Kryptonian Karate), and it's suggested he knows some earthly Martial Arts too, including Judo, but it's very likely any such fight would go to the tigress here.

Interesting info you posted here. I'd like to see this part dealed with a little bit more in the comics. The last thing we saw was the new combat techniques Superman learned from Mongul II before the arrival of Imperiex. So, although we know Superman knows how to fight (and very well; someone said in this board that once Superman defeated an alien that mastered several forms of Martial Arts, before being trained by Mongul), we don't see this aspect used in the comics. Either the writers forget it, or they just don't know how to use it. OR we have a case of PIS here, so the other character looks cool.

[JulianPerez]

That's from the first edition, and the first edition is pre-Crisis. In the post-Crisis 2nd and 3rd editions, both Superman and Darkseid have a Strength of 25.

See? This is exactly what I mean: Power Inflation.

Interesting info you posted here. I'd like to see this part dealed with a little bit more in the comics. The last thing we saw was the new combat techniques Superman learned from Mongul II before the arrival of Imperiex. So, although we know Superman knows how to fight (and very well; someone said in this board that once Superman defeated an alien that mastered several forms of Martial Arts, before being trained by Mongul), we don't see this aspect used in the comics. Either the writers forget it, or they just don't know how to use it. OR we have a case of PIS here, so the other character looks cool.

Superman doing Kung Fu is a point of cognitive dissonance (Matrix type stuff is too trendy right now to possibly seem at all original), but it might be interesting to see him do some pressure point techniques and Chinese acupuncture type knowledge in the midst of a battle to disable or temporarily paralyze a foe without excessive use of force. Doc Savage did that sort of thing, so why not Superman?

What's PIS? I think I can guess: a character looking great at the expense of Superman, e.g. a Flash/Superman battle where Flash wins without a shadow of a doubt, a Batman/Superman fight where Flash wins, a Justice League where Superman was never a part of it from the beginning...and so on, a fairly aggrivating trend unfair to Superman.

[The Mirrorball Man]

See? This is exactly what I mean: Power Inflation.
Sure, Darkseid has has his Strength multiplied by a factor of 128 (in Mayfair Games terms at least), but don't forget that at the same time, Superman has had his Strength divided by 131072. It doesn't look like Power Inflation to me, it looks like a levelling of the field.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

See? This is exactly what I mean: Power Inflation.

And is that good or bad for you?

Superman doing Kung Fu is a point of cognitive dissonance (Matrix type stuff is too trendy right now to possibly seem at all original), but it might be interesting to see him do some pressure point techniques and Chinese acupuncture type knowledge in the midst of a battle to disable or temporarily paralyze a foe without excessive use of force. Doc Savage did that sort of thing, so why not Superman?

That would be cool indeed. If the guy can inmovilize you *without* hitting you, then even with MORE reason you don't want him angry...

What's PIS? I think I can guess: a character looking great at the expense of Superman, e.g. a Flash/Superman battle where Flash wins without a shadow of a doubt, a Batman/Superman fight where Flash wins, a Justice League where Superman was never a part of it from the beginning...and so on, a fairly aggrivating trend unfair to Superman.

Oh, I so agree. In other words, the writers make Superman stupid, so the other character looks cool (PIS= plot-induced stupidity). And as you said, it is totally unfair to Superman. I'd wish DC realized this once and for all.

A Superman with PIS is another sign for us that the writer doesn't know how to write Superman, or hates Superman (e.g., Frank "I hate Superman" Miller).

[666MasterOfPuppets]

BTW, It wouldn't be bad to see Superman doing some Matrix-esque moves.

Not original, I agree, but definitely cool.

[JulianPerez]

And is that good or bad for you?

Well, it's neither good or bad, just an interesting phenomenon. Alan Moore made a hgh-powered Mongul a very terrifying figure. Mongul at lower power levels had really nothing to do or nothing distinctive about him; you can't sink any lower on the Comic Book Totem Pole than being a Silver Age Martian Manhunter enemy.

Except in the case of Darkseid, where it is bothersome, because we have a definitive version of the character, namely Kirby's version. And Kirby's version was a subtle planner, not a Thing-style brawler.

I mean, jeez, where did all this extra power come from? A character being portrayed as having more power than they ought is just as bad an act of writing as a character being written as "forgetting" their powers - PIS.

Oh, I so agree. In other words, the writers make Superman stupid, so the other character looks cool (PIS= plot-induced stupidity). And as you said, it is totally unfair to Superman. I'd wish DC realized this once and for all.

A Superman with PIS is another sign for us that the writer doesn't know how to write Superman, or hates Superman (e.g., Frank "I hate Superman" Miller).

Now, this I just don't get.

I don't like seafood. I stay away from seafood restaurants. Problem solved.

If a writer is antagonistic to a character, especially a big shot like Frank Miller who in the eighties was an 800 pound gorilla that could write anybody he wants, why write them at all? And even if a writer hates a character - according to legend, Christopher Priest hated the Black Panther and resented being assigned to him - he has a professional obligation to write them both correctly and entertainingly.

[Guts/Batman]

Now, this I just don't get.

I don't like seafood. I stay away from seafood restaurants. Problem solved.

If a writer is antagonistic to a character, especially a big shot like Frank Miller who in the eighties was an 800 pound gorilla that could write anybody he wants, why write them at all? And even if a writer hates a character - according to legend, Christopher Priest hated the Black Panther and resented being assigned to him - he has a professional obligation to write them both correctly and entertainingly.

Editorial mandates to do something to the character that they don't like.

And some writers are not as porfessional as others.

Superman only jobs to Batman. He is a jobber otherwise, right now.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Well, it's neither good or bad, just an interesting phenomenon. Alan Moore made a hgh-powered Mongul a very terrifying figure. Mongul at lower power levels had really nothing to do or nothing distinctive about him; you can't sink any lower on the Comic Book Totem Pole than being a Silver Age Martian Manhunter enemy.

Except in the case of Darkseid, where it is bothersome, because we have a definitive version of the character, namely Kirby's version. And Kirby's version was a subtle planner, not a Thing-style brawler.

Indeed. I don't mind Darkseid being extra-powerful, but I like that "subtle planner" stuff. Darkseid, of course, should know how to fight, had he a fight with Superman, but in most of the cases, he should be a strategist. A master strategist.

I mean, jeez, where did all this extra power come from? A character being portrayed as having more power than they ought is just as bad an act of writing as a character being written as "forgetting" their powers - PIS.

It could very well be the case. But in the case of Darkseid, I see it as a good thing, as long as the essence of the character stays there.

Now, this I just don't get.

I don't like seafood. I stay away from seafood restaurants. Problem solved.

If a writer is antagonistic to a character, especially a big shot like Frank Miller who in the eighties was an 800 pound gorilla that could write anybody he wants, why write them at all? And even if a writer hates a character - according to legend, Christopher Priest hated the Black Panther and resented being assigned to him - he has a professional obligation to write them both correctly and entertainingly.

Agreed. Frank Miller (damn him) used Superman to make Bat-god look cool. And it's not the first time he has done this. He did the same with the Batman/Spawn crossover. It's annoying. And on top of that, he writes Batman as the most arrogant SOB ever. Batman is an arrogant SOB already, there's no need to make him even MORE SOB.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Editorial mandates to do something to the character that they don't like.

Not the case with Frank "I hate Superman" Miller.

And some writers are not as porfessional as others.

Exactly the case with the aforementioned "writer".

Superman only jobs to Batman.

Which is something that shouldn't be, IMO.

He is a jobber otherwise, right now.

Sadly, this tends to be true. And proves to be extremely annoying sometimes.