INFINITE CRISIS: DC fans take sides.

[Buried Alien]

OK.

So far, INFINITE CRISIS is being set up as a struggle between two sides: one, Kal-L's side, seeks to restore its idealized Earth-2. The other side, that of the Modern Age DC superheroes, seeks to preserve its world (faulted though it might be). In the end, only one of them will prevail.

Whose side do you stand on?

Messrs. Johns, Didio, and Levitz...hope you're all reading. :)


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Leon Thomas]

The current DCU. Although, whatever is set to happen at the end of Infinite Crisis has already been set in motion. So, no matter what we say or who sees it will not matter in the slightest.

Ya know. Just sayin'. :)

[Young Avenger]

The current DCU. I don't want an Earth where Batman is happy, likeable and admired. :p

[Sk8maven]

Earth-2. I *hate* the current DCU and will loudly and gleefully cheer on ANYONE - hero, villain, or whatever - who seeks to destroy it.

Maven

[Murrocko]

The current DCU, I don't want no damn happy go lucky multiverse.

[Babylon23]

I have to go with neither. I'm an Earth-2 junkie, and would love to see this Earth restored to it's former glory. At the same time, there's a lot I like about the current DCU, so I wouldn't want to see it replaced.

[thehod]

Can't we have both?

Or an amalgamation of the two, which, BTW, is where my money is at for the end of IC at the moment.

[JulianPerez]

I am ALL in favor of the concept of the multiverse and its return. It was a truly thoughtless idea to get rid of it, and eliminating 60 years of excellent stories, the greatest tool for telling future stories ever, was chucked and flushed down the toilet.

When Superman of Earth-2 spoke about how the Earth has grown too corrupt and vile to survive, he was speaking my language. Batman needs a personality transplant BADLY. Superman needs to start acting like it. I cannot accept a Wonder Woman that commits murder, no matter how justified.

Geoff Johns, that genius, has been bringing back all the wonderful concepts of days gone by: the return of the Lantern Corps, the restoration of the dignity of the JSA...the guy can write!

[Kid Quick Foots]

The current DCU, I don't want no damn happy go lucky multiverse.


couldn't agree more. :)

[darkkeeperjr]

Go ahead. go back to your wonderful world of happy. the world where superman and batman share a cake every year or so, And the last panel always have a laugh.

I don't care, cause all it takes is a frank miller or some one just as good to write a gritty dark "Robin: The evil within" story line and all the other writers will fall line to with dark stories of thier own to tell.

And really do any one wants to see a yearly earth 1 and earth 2 supermen team up against lex?

[PatrickG]

I would in a heartbeat!

[Ian J.N.]

I think Kal-L is grossly mistaken. I can understand that he misses his world, but an Earth-2 templated DCU will be no more like Earth-2 than the current DCU is like Earth-1. He's going to lose his homeworld either way. Also, he's labouring under the assumption that the resultant world will be less dark. Two criticisms here. One, while the current universe isn't as bright as it might be, it's hardly an apocalyptic dystopia. "Dark" is a relative term; there's still good in the world. Two, who's to say that Kal-L's new world order will be any brighter? Nevermind that Earth-2 had its share of tragedy, Earth-1 was also a more optimistic place and yet its DCU is dark. An Earth-2 DCU may very well be the same, if not worse. We're lead to believe that the Big Three are intrinisic to the happy functioning of the world. What good can result, then, by shifting their timelines into the golden age. In modern times they'll likely be dead or retired—ineffective.

Kal-L's primary motivation is to save Lois. Not to sound callous, but Lois is in her, what, seventies? eighties? Everyone dies, and Lois has lead a full life. This isn't something Superman can fix. He needs to accept that.

The ideal solution is to restore the multiverse, with the current DCU remaining intact. If impossible, than no, Kal-L is wrong. The DCU should remain as is.

[Ravenheart]

The current DCU because its more interesting.

[icymatt]

Neither-They're going to team-up in the end.

[Rugal 3:16]

Who does Kal-L think he is?? During the early stages of his career didn't he beat up on Wife beaters, ricocheted bullets that murdered crooks, brought down planes mercilessly, shattered public property and killed the Ultra-Humanite.. at least he should not act as though he's a goody goody who has commited no wrong..

BTW the Earth-2 Batman (don't worry) is not the 50's-60's Smiley-I-Act-As-If-I-Was-Raised-A-Spoiled-Brat-Over-The-Fact-That-My-Folks-Were-Murdered schtick.. if anything he was more BRUTAL than the current Batman, he even used a gun once and killed crooks himself on some occasion.. actually closer to All Star Batman

[Heavy_P]

Current DCU.
Bats will do something huge I think, to save the current DCU

Oh, and Alex Luthor, and Superboy Prime are gonna get curbstomped once the real Superman figures out whats going on :p

[Azrael52]

The current DCU because its more interesting.

I wouldn't mind if they had a title or two, but I wouldn't want it interfering with my books. I like the idea of what if?, but what if if messed up some of the characters that I've invested over a decade in?

[Sk8maven]

Know what this "poll" indicates most clearly? No matter which way they go with it, DC LOSES bigtime.

If they lighten up, they lose all the fans who just LOOOOVE wallowing in other people's darkness and misery so they can feel better about how horrible and meaningless their own lives are - not to mention all the "adolescents" of all ages who think that wholesale slaughter and pointless, grossly explicit violence is "kewl".

If they don't lighten up, they lose all the fans who have patiently been waiting for the darkness to end as "promised" - AND they will never get back those fans who have already gone away because the darkness is too total and has already lasted too long.

Either way, THEY LOSE FANS.

Maven

[icymatt]

Actually, I change my vote...I vote for the side that has all the good writers.

[Watchman]

The current DCU, I don't want no damn happy go lucky multiverse.
Agreed.

That's all I have to say.

[Lurker]

I'm torn here, really. But I do think their should only be one Superman, boy, Luthor, Lois etc.

[Guts/Batman]

Neither.

There are better ways of handling this.

Though I definitely want to see a lighter "DCU", without all the pointless and meaningless deaths.

Not "happy go lucky" but I don't want "I only think I'm not childish" Batman. I want a sane, non-asshole Batman.

[Mbast1]

Can't we have both?

Or an amalgamation of the two, which, BTW, is where my money is at for the end of IC at the moment.
I think this is the best reason for the multiverse. Everyone could get what they want, just on different earths. Well, except for those who hate the multiverse concept, but I don't much like that attitude...

[jaguarshark]

Honest-fricken-ly. If they keep going with this multiverse business... There's nothing wrong with the idea of a multiverse, IMO. I like it. But 1986 messed it up, because 'Man of Steel' and a lot of other post-Crisis touches (the JSA existing before the JLA on the same Earth, for example) don't fit into either world. Now, either go back and say that COIE never happened, or just ignore continuity or whatever, but stop creating this artificial fondness for Earth 2. We never even read about Earth 2 characters on a monthly basis, Earth 2 is a retconned version of the Golden Age. If we really want to get back to the Silver Age, we have to un-Crisis Earth 1... or something. I don't care.

I don't care because the Multi-verse should be non-diagetic. There shouldn't need to be an in-story reason for different eras and different creators portraying characters in different ways. The writers who work for DC are the best in their field. Let's let them do their job. Let them tell stories about iconic characters their way, using the parts of the character's universe that suit their stories and don't heavily contradict other stories, and let's just be entertained.
Yeah, I get some writers don't want to tell stories about Kryptonian puppies and tennis players turned Bat-females, and that's cool. Just leave them out of the story. But I don't want to pick up an issue of Superman thinking that that stuff never happened, that he wasn't born on Krypton or that he was never the patriarch of the Super-Family. I want to read stories that encompass all the Superman continuity, not just the pre or post 1986 stuff. Just let creators tell their stories. Don't force them to write massive earth-changing in-story explanations for why they write them the way they write them.
Ultimately, the whole idea of a diagetic multiverse creates one-dimensional, overly clear cut characters. You end up with two very simplified versions of the same character, so as to make the DCU/Earth-2/Earth-whatever split clear. We already see this in the ridiculous 'light vs. dark' debate, the fires of which have been stoked by Mark Waid and others.
I just want to read good stories about characters I care about. The All-Star line can give me that, and the regular DCU can quite often give me that too. I don't want some big continuity-heavy universe to take that away.

[Sk8maven]

We never even read about Earth 2 characters on a monthly basisFor a while in the early 80's, we DID - and in two different zines, at that. "All-Star Squadron" and "Infinity Inc."

That was BEFORE Crisis on Infinite Earths - which effectively destroyed "All-Star Squadron" and gut-shot "InfInc" so that it staggered on for another couple of years before expiring.

Edit: I see your point, but there's no need to drastically overstate your case and therefore undercut it.

And what the heck does "diagetic" mean anyway? Is it the latest hottest academic buzzword for talking over the heads of the general public? :p

Maven

[JeffreyWKramer]

I'd be fine with the return of the multiverse, but at this point, I think it might be best if DC just wiped the slate clean and started over... and definitely under different editorial tenure.

[Sk8maven]

I'd be fine with the return of the multiverse, but at this point, I think it might be best if DC just wiped the slate clean and started over... and definitely under different editorial tenure.That's absolutely not gonna happen, unfortunately. We're stuck with DiDio as long as sales keep going up. :mad:

Maven

[JeffreyWKramer]

Not on any of my nickels and dimes! ;)

Trouble is - and this goes for all media across the board, evidently - it just isn't possible to put out product that's so bad that at least some people won't buy it and proclaim it good. :rolleyes:

Maven

It's possible, but the success of people like Britney Spears and Rob Liefeld suggests it's all too easy for lack of talent to result in success.

I like to think of INFINITE CRISIS as comics' equivalent to Britney Spears or Paris Hilton.

[jaguarshark]

For a while in the early 80's, we DID - and in two different zines, at that. "All-Star Squadron" and "Infinity Inc."
Edit: I see your point, but there's no need to drastically overstate your case and therefore undercut it.
Wow, two titles in the early 80's... what a drastic overstatement I made. Seriously, thanks for pointing out that error. But I don't know that it really undercuts my point, which is that, as far as I know, we never read about the Earth-2 versions of Superman, Batman etc. except for those annual JSA crossovers and the occasional peek into Earth 2, in the pages of the Earth-1 character's books. They didn't have their own monthly titles, they weren't as beloved by or as familiar to the fans as the Earth-1 characters.
I guess, if it had to do something, I would prefer Infinite Crisis to bring about the return of the pre-Crisis Earth-1, and leave Earth-2 out of it. But then I don't really want that either. I just want the characters to be seen as icons, who, in the case of Superman and Batman etc., have been around since the Golden Age. Do we really need to make such a firm distinction between the eras that they become completely different characters?

And what the heck does "diagetic" mean anyway? Is it the latest hottest academic buzzword for talking over the heads of the general public?
I'm pretty sure diagetic isn't an academic buzzword (although admittedly I have heard it used at Uni), but a word that's been around for ages, that I've seen used on these boards before. As to what it means, I explained that literally the sentence after I used it. It means, in this case, creating an in-story reason for the differences between eras, rather than just putting it down to external changes. A really common usage of the word is in movie soundtracks- if the music in a scene is coming from something in the movie, like a record player in the character's bedroom or whatever, then it is diagetic. If there is no on-screen reason for why we're hearing music, which is much more common, I think, then it is non-diagetic.

[Jason_Bourne]

This seems a hard question on the surface but is really a no brainer.

Now, i'm assuming we're answering this question in a real life, moral standpoint-> as in 'if this was really happening in real life, whats the best option' and not an entertainment standpoint as in 'which would be more interesting to read'*

Its simple because of this:

1.) Earth2 cant be any better if the supposed lighter more cheerful heroes are blowing up the JLA watchtower, kidnapping heroes AND villains, killing heroes and villains (Earth2 luthor IS the leader of one of the villain societies after all) and manipulating people to get their earth back.

2.) The Earth2 squad are assuming they understand the workings of 'reality'.
Do they know for sure they can return things to normal? What if they just destroy existence, or just create an altogether different reality thats worse than both earth1 or 2. An really messed up earth '1.5'.

3.) Things have happened,..you cant just erase people cuz you miss your own world. Say they succeed and earth2 is restored,...and Earth1 batman/superman miss their own world....would they be right in erasing everyone again to restore earth1? The cycle just continues.

*even from an entertainment standpoint, i'd hate to have all the comics i've spent money on to never have existed,...and then start learning new continuity (too bad about the reader victims of the first COIE)

[Calculator]

As a reader who only has been alive for the existence of the new merged DCU, I am a bit partial. But, from what I've seen of Earth-2, and the relationships between those characters, I'd love to see a merging of those ideas.

Our current DCU with aspects of Earth 2 sewn throughout. For instance, I love that Power Girl was in fact "Supergirl", and her best friends were Robin and Huntress, who were a couple. Another thing is that Batman had a family and didn't drive everyone he loved away.

Earth 2 seems to have had progression with their overall story, and I'd like the DCU to do the same. There is nothing wrong with making the jump from everyone being 25-35 to everyone being 30-45 and starting families. I mean, isn't it odd that DC is supposed to be about legacies, but seems reluctant to really embrace that mantra.

[jaguarshark]

Originally posted by Calculator
Earth 2 seems to have had progression with their overall story, and I'd like the DCU to do the same.

Yeah, that is cool, but that's probably because we didn't follow Earth 2 THAT closely, and they were always kind of supporting/novelty characters, in a way. Like, "cool! Superman looks old and stuff!". You can do that with an Earth 2 character because if they die of old age, it's not a massive loss, at least not in terms of the Earth 1 character maintaining their title. But if the primary Earth 1 character was to get old, or die, then there goes your main character. Does that make any sense, or am I rambling?

[Shellhead]

Know what this "poll" indicates most clearly? No matter which way they go with it, DC LOSES bigtime.

If they lighten up, they lose all the fans who just LOOOOVE wallowing in other people's darkness and misery so they can feel better about how horrible and meaningless their own lives are - not to mention all the "adolescents" of all ages who think that wholesale slaughter and pointless, grossly explicit violence is "kewl".

If they don't lighten up, they lose all the fans who have patiently been waiting for the darkness to end as "promised" - AND they will never get back those fans who have already gone away because the darkness is too total and has already lasted too long.

Either way, THEY LOSE FANS.

Maven

DC could have it both ways if they bring back the multiverse. That way, they could have the light-hearted adventures on Earth-2, and the grim and gritty adventures on Earth-1. They could even use different-colored logos for the two product lines, with a special third logo for crossover stories.

[Sabrinaset]

DC could have it both ways if they bring back the multiverse. That way, they could have the light-hearted adventures on Earth-2, and the grim and gritty adventures on Earth-1. They could even use different-colored logos for the two product lines, with a special third logo for crossover stories.

That makes perfect sense....


...so it'll never happen.

[Calculator]

Yeah, that is cool, but that's probably because we didn't follow Earth 2 THAT closely, and they were always kind of supporting/novelty characters, in a way. Like, "cool! Superman looks old and stuff!". You can do that with an Earth 2 character because if they die of old age, it's not a massive loss, at least not in terms of the Earth 1 character maintaining their title. But if the primary Earth 1 character was to get old, or die, then there goes your main character. Does that make any sense, or am I rambling?

Well, I fully expect that within the next 15-20 years there will be a restart anyhow. I just feel that things like Lois and Superman marrying, Gordon leaving his post as Commisioner of Gotham City (Can you believe it's been 5 years since they did that), and Wally and Linda West, maturing and having children, make the cohesive universe that much more fun. I mean, I'm all for progression, but not at a rapid rate. In my opinion though, many of our long-standing characters have been in a stagnation. It's time to go to phase 2, if you will.

[DF2506]

I went with Earth-2. Why?

Personally, I think Earth-2 Superman is so much cooler then DCU Superman. He's got the grey in his hair, he has an actual goal he's working toward, he's super-powerful, and he seems to have so much more history to him then our current Superman. Plus, I really like how Geoff writes him. I think he should stick around.

Plus, I think that the DCU could lighten up some more AND still be written great. You have writers like Geoff Johns, Grant Morrison, Mark Waid, Kurt Busiek, and more! Just great writers who are not going to write completly happy go-lucky, every issue ends with a smile stuff. Just because its Earth-2 and its not as dark as the current DCU doesn't mean the end of great stories. Give the current generation of writers some credit. Heck, give the older generation of writers some credit too. Those Earth-2 writers actually had their characters CHANGE and GROW. Bruce became a commissioner and got married. Earth-2 Superman got older. Other heroes changed too, which you, the curent generation heroes have changed some, but not much.

So, ya, if one universe has to win, I'd like it to be Earth-2.

But, you know, if they just have Earth-2 Superman stick around as the one, true Superman I'd be happy. :)

I think a Geoff Johns/Kurt Busiek Earth-2 Superman in the current DCU would be such a great thing. I sure hope thats what their run is about. lol. Prob not, but it would be awesome.

As for the current Superman, maybe he could even stick around and become a different hero. That might explain all the hints we've been getting recently and also why not much about the status of Superman is being said...

I don't know. I'd just like Earth-2 Supes around. I think it would be great if Earth-2 came back. Too much darkness in the DCU right now.

Though, if Earth-2 Supes goes away or becomes one with DCU Supes, then I just hope that the DCU lightens up a bit. I'm not saying you can't have darkness at all. Infinite Crisis has darkness and its great, but it also has Earth-2 Supes and Power Girl.

I at least want to see Superman become the optimistic Superman he use to be. The icon, the symbol, and you know, Clark Kent!

Anyway, I guess we have All-Star Superman for that, but we shouldn't really have to depend solely on that for our true Superman fix!

DF2506
" I definitly can't wait to see more of Earth-2 Supes though. He's my favorite character in Crisis right now! "

[jaguarshark]

Originally posted by Calculator
I just feel that things like Lois and Superman marrying, Gordon leaving his post as Commisioner of Gotham City (Can you believe it's been 5 years since they did that), and Wally and Linda West, maturing and having children, make the cohesive universe that much more fun.
But if those things are happening, doesn't that mean that there already is progression in the DCU? If anything, I think some of those progressions might have gone a tad too far, but they are happening. And it's not like they're the only ones, a fair bit of stuff has happened to Batman over his post-Crisis lifetime as well. I just don't see the need to go down the Earth-2 route and age everyone quite that much. For memory, the only reason it was done in the first place was to explain how Supes and Bats could have been around during WWII.
Originally posted by DF2506
Just because its Earth-2 and its not as dark as the current DCU doesn't mean the end of great stories. Give the current generation of writers some credit.
I believe that saying the current DCU is "too dark" and artificially regressing the overall tone of the stories would be taking credit away from the current generation of writers.

[AceOfSpades]

The current DCU. I don't want an Earth where Batman is happy, likeable and admired. :p
Hell Yeah!


... Definitly the current DCU

[Lurch]

But if those things are happening, doesn't that mean that there already is progression in the DCU? If anything, I think some of those progressions might have gone a tad too far, but they are happening. And it's not like they're the only ones, a fair bit of stuff has happened to Batman over his post-Crisis lifetime as well. I just don't see the need to go down the Earth-2 route and age everyone quite that much. For memory, the only reason it was done in the first place was to explain how Supes and Bats could have been around during WWII.

I believe that saying the current DCU is "too dark" and artificially regressing the overall tone of the stories would be taking credit away from the current generation of writers.

That still doesn't change the fact that there has to be a resolution to WW II heroes that have children in their twenties. As time goes on, characters like Jade and Jesse Quick make less and less sense.

The only thing I liked about the destruction of the multiverse was that it added a new dimension to the Flash and Green Lantern legacies. That's been kind of cool, and wouldn't it be great if somehow the current Superman and Batman had those same old-timers to go to for advice?

Don't ask me how it could be accomplished, I'd just like to see it happen.

[Mulett]

I'd love to see at least some elements of the multiverse restored, in particular Earth-2. For years, I was only interested in Earth-2 for the annual JLA/JSA team up. Stories that took place on Earth-2 never really interested me as it always seemed like a watered-down version of Earth-1.

But then All Star Squadron came along which - in my opinion - was one of the best comics DC ever produced. Suddenly, Earth-2 had the sort of history and depth that Earth-1 simply didn't have. And when Infinity Inc came along as well, it completed the picture.

I honestly think the DCU lost a lot of its magic when the multiverse was erased in 1985. The initial excitement of 'how will everyone fit together on this single earth' was short lived because so much was badly botched early on (Power Girl, Wonder Girl, Superboy/the Legion etc). And the loss of Earth-2 Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman (and their related characters) was really undermining for the power of the remaining Earth-2 characters and teams.

Having read the first 3 issues of IC, I don't now believe Earth-2 or the multiverse will return. I think, instead, that all the characters will simply continue to live in a single universe but with the added complication of remembering how their lives were before CoIE. I hope I'm wrong as I don't think this will be a satisfying conclusion to the series.

[Paradox]

Other, and see constant's post for how I feel about the Kal-L situation. He sums it up nicely.

What I'd like to happen, and what I think will happen, is that we'll end up with the same DCU we have now, with the heroes having their "heads on straighter" after this conflict (so not EXACTLY the DCU we have now). I hazard a guess that the doors to the multiverse will reopen as well, but I'm not sure exactly what they'll find there. It might not be the same group of Earths that were there before.

[Sk8maven]

That still doesn't change the fact that there has to be a resolution to WW II heroes that have children in their twenties. As time goes on, characters like Jade and Jesse Quick make less and less sense. Jade's a lot less of a problem once you factor in that her (and Todd's - why doe everyone always forget Todd?) mother spent an undefined amount of time in Amazon territory under Amazon care - and thus, in a sense, outside time and protected from aging. Just keep stretching the time Rose/Thorn spent in treatment to take up any slack. (As for Alan, he already has a good excuse to defer marriage and family - Harlequin I stole his heart back at the end of the '40's and it took him a long time to get over her, if he ever really did.)

It's only Jesse who's getting more and more problematical, because as far as we know there haven't been any time-warps or magical age-retardants done to her mother, Liberty Belle (Libby Lawrence Chambers).

"WWII heroes (male) having children who are now in their twenties" isn't that absurd. Men can and do beget children at ANY age.

Maven

[glennsim]

"WWII heroes (male) having children who are now in their twenties" isn't that absurd. Men can and do beget children at ANY age.

Maven

But you at least need to explain why they all waited until they were in their 70's to do so.