Rank the scientists of the Avengers

[Shellhead]

Usually, an Avengers (new or old) roster contains at least one brilliant scientist, sometimes more than a couple. List the top ten brilliant scientists that have been Avengers, and try to rank them. Use whatever criteria you want, number of PhDs, number of inventions, range of areas of science worked in, fame, fortune, whatever.

1. Reed Richards
2. Hank Pym
3. Tony Stark
4. T'challa
5. Hank McCoy
6. Sentry
7. Stingray? (was he an Avenger, or just a reservist?)
8. Peter Parker
9. Wonder Man? (was he an inventor, or just an business man?)
10. Bruce Banner

[The Shadow]

I think it gets thin after Reed, Bruce and both the Hank's.

Peter Parker isn't ANYWHERE near Reed's big brain capacity! LOL

[Sabrinaset]

My take:

1) Reed Richards. Definitely the top guy here, no question.
2) Tony Stark.
3) Hank Pym. Invented Pym Particles, Ultron and other robots, fiddled with communications systems, fairly bright guy. Third-rate Reed Richards, which is still better than most people on the planet. Lacks Reeds imagination and creativity, imo.
4) Bruce Banner. Could be at the second or third slot, but spends too much time as the Hulk.
5) Henry McCoy
6) T'challa. Although I don't remember many stories about him inventing high-end stuff, so I could be wrong here...
7) Stingray. Oceanographer who invented that suit of his. Definitely below Iron Man.
8) Peter Parker. Again, loses points because I don't see him in a lab that often. Most of what he invented...the Spider-Tracer, webbing, the belt with the spotlight on it, was 10 years ago, MU-time.

I think Wonder Man was a businessman. Can't recall any scientific feats he's done off hand.
Sentry...Have we SEEN any scientific feats from him yet? Considering he's a complete retcon, I'll hold off on rating him yet. Maybe he built the C.L.O.C, but so far, I've seen no indication in the comics of him acting like he could have done so.

[BobC]

Sabrina I think you put your finger on the problem with the Black Panther as a character. His first appearance in FF showed him as a Reed Richards level genius who built an entire underground mechanical jungle and gadgets galore. From then on it was all downhill. He designed the quinjet--but that's about it. To me this speaks volumes on the neglect his character has suffered over the years. Even though Priest improved on his tech profile, it's been nowhere near enough.

Potential waiting to happen...

[Will.S]

Sabrina I think you put your finger on the problem with the Black Panther as a character. His first appearance in FF showed him as a Reed Richards level genius who built an entire underground mechanical jungle and gadgets galore. From then on it was all downhill. He designed the quinjet--but that's about it. To me this speaks volumes on the neglect his character has suffered over the years. Even though Priest improved on his tech profile, it's been nowhere near enough.

Potential waiting to happen...
Yeah basically my thoughts on BP's inventiveness. That's one of the reasons why I had trouble pairing him on par with Tony Stark before but he does have a couple of degrees including one in physics.

He should invent more cool stuff.

[Chocolove]

I'm kinda surprised how the Avengers apparently haven't had too many geniuses on their team. I tried thinking of more, but outside of members like Vision and Machineman I couldn't come up with any one else of signifigance. I tried to give equal credit to specificity and range of knowledge. Banner is basically the expert in his particular field, but I feel T'Challa has the the intellectual capacity to keep up and has shown in Priest's series that he has a wide variety of tech to rely on and make use of. I'm also taking into account how often they actually rely on technology and how it is applied practically. I feel Spiderman has the raw potential to be on the level of Stark or Pym, but has never had time to really nurture his own intellect, so I could see a three-way tie between the last three. I've 'heard' Sentyr is supposed to be smart, but I've never read a single thing about the character, so kept him off.

1. Reed Richards
2. Hank Pym
3. Tony Stark
4. T'challa
5. Bruce Banner
6. Hank McCoy
7. Aaron Stack (Machineman)
8. Walter Newell (Stingray)
9. Peter Parker
10. Vision

[Flying Fruitbat]

What about Moondragon? I thought she was suppose to be the best at everything. She trained both her body and mind and achieved amazing results. I could be mistaken here. It's been awhile since I read her early stories. I thought she designed her spacecraft and was indeed a genius.



What about Dane Whitman? Go beyond the character's lameness and you will find that he was a scientist in good standing. Just separate the Black Knight and Dane. See? He is not that bad. Dane over Peter Parker perhaps?

My List:

1. Reed
2. Banner (in one of his first tales, an alien kidnaps him because he is the smarterst man on Earth)
3. T'Challa
4. Hank Pym
5. Moondragon
6. Tony Stark
7. Hank McCoy
8. Dane Whitman
9. Peter Parker (those web-shooter help heaps)
10. Mantis (I thought she was the best pupil of her Pama school?)

[Shellhead]

Sabrina I think you put your finger on the problem with the Black Panther as a character. His first appearance in FF showed him as a Reed Richards level genius who built an entire underground mechanical jungle and gadgets galore. From then on it was all downhill. He designed the quinjet--but that's about it. To me this speaks volumes on the neglect his character has suffered over the years. Even though Priest improved on his tech profile, it's been nowhere near enough.

Potential waiting to happen...

T'challa also designed Falcon's wings. During the Priest years, T'challa upgraded his suit massively with vibranium and technology, as well as a satellite uplink that he used to track people that he had tagged with his energy darts. He actually had a slight technological edge over Iron Man when they directly clashed a few years ago.

[LordEd1976]

I think Wonder Man was a businessman. Can't recall any scientific feats he's done off hand.


wonder Man has some knowhow. In the Death of Captain Marvel GN he was among the Avengers called by Rick Jones to look for a cancer cure.

Here's my list:

Reed Richards
Hank Pym
Tony Stark
T'Challa
Bruce Banner
Hank McCoy
Peter Parker
Dane Whitman
Moondragon

[Shellhead]

wonder Man has some knowhow. In the Death of Captain Marvel GN he was among the Avengers called by Rick Jones to look for a cancer cure.

Here's my list:

Reed Richards
Hank Pym
Tony Stark
T'Challa
Bruce Banner
Hank McCoy
Peter Parker
Dane Whitman
Moondragon

Moondragon has a PhD in what? What has she invented? What is her greatest accomplishment? Aside from killing her father....

[o1pickleboy]

1. Reed Richards
2. Hank Pym
3. Tony Stark
4. T'challa
5. Bruce Banner
6. Hank Mccoy
7. StringRay
8. Peter Parker
9. Dane Whitman
10.Scott Lang

You all forgot Scott Lang. Remember he was brought in the handle Reed's sciencific stuff when he was missing. If he is smart enought to babysit Reed's stuff he need to at least be number 10.

[Taskmaster]

1. Mister Fantastic (Reed Richards) - the smartest man on the good side of the fence in the MU
2. Sentry (Bob Reyonlds) - shown to be almost the equal of Reed, if he's smart enough to create Cloc and the countless other creations from his series he deserves to be this high
3. Yellowjacket (Hank Pym) - AI, check, shrinking and growing particles, check, genetic manipulation, check, he's too good at too many things to drop any lower
4. Black Panther (T'Challa) - a genius on so many levels, he'd rival Reed and Sentry if it wasn't for his responsibilites to his country
5. Iron Man (Tony Stark) - a genius for sure, but not as broadly as Hank
6. Beast (Henry 'Hank' McCoy) - a genius on so many levels, but just barely below Iron Man
7. Hulk (Bruce Banner) - he'd be above Black Panther if only he didn't spend so much time away from science as a rampaging beast
8. Ant-Man (Scott Lang) - a huge drop down here to get to Lang, but he's smart enough to help figure out Reeds gear so he's smart enough to make the list
9. Wonder Man (Simon Williams) - Spent so much time away from science, his skills aren't what they could be
10. Spider-Man (Peter Parker) - see Wonder Man
11. Stingray - sorry, although impressive, his skills don't beat anything done by any other member of this list

[lament]

1. Reed Richards (Duh)

2. Hank Pym (He's a genius in diverse areas)

3. Tony Stark

4. T'challa

5. Hank McCoy

6. Bruce Banner

7. Bob Reynolds (Could be higher...we'll see as time goes on)

8. Scott Lang (He's smart enough to handle Reed's equiptment, so he deserves to be on the list. And considering he apparently never had a PhD... I feel like we never really got to see his potential. Le sigh.)

9. Dane Whitman

10. Peter Parker

[Sabrinaset]

Many good posts and points by all of you, so I'm revising my original list because...

1) I had forgotten about T'Challas feats regarding the Quinjet, et al. I'm moving him up, although Pym still has more scientific feats listed. Personally, I think T'Challa is smarter than Pym, and with more feats to back him up, I could easily see him beating Pym.
2) Dane Whitman. Yes, should be on the list, somewhere around the Henry McCoy level.
3) Scott Lang...how did we miss him? Yes, if someone can manage Reed's lab, he should be there, but waaay on the bottom. Capable of dealing with KirbyTech, not able to create it.
4) I don't think Peter at this point could handle managing Reed's lab, though. Outside of Byrne reboot time when Peter was spending time in that lab somewhere...and how long did THAT last?... we just have seen next to nothing from Peter. He's at the bottom.
5) I'm sorry, Wonder Man ran the business that he embezzeled, so I'm assuming he was more into the business angle of it than the scientific angle. May know some science, but...too few feats. I'm gonna guess the Cancer Search was an error by Starlin.
6) Moondragon. A self-styled Goddess of the Mind would not dare sully her hands with mere tech. I can see her *bragging* about creating tech, but not inventing it. She'd have a flunky do it for her. She's not on the list. Really, Hawkeye has more experience with science and tech than she does.
7) Sentry. Still leaving him off the list. I have yet to see any tangible evidence that this guy can hang scientifically with Reed, or anyone for that matter. For every one of the others on my list, I can find you at least one scene where they were in a lab inventing or working on something, and I can't find it with Reynolds. Not yet, anyway. Really, for all we know, Reed programmed the CLOC for the Sentry. Ok, I know I'm being stubborn here, and if I'm proven wrong, I will admit it. Maybe we'll see something further on in his Mini, but until then...


My new list...

1) Reed Richards.
2) Tony Stark.
3) Hank Pym.
4) T'Challa.
5) Bruce Banner.
6) Henry McCoy.
7) Dane Whitman.
8) Stingray.
9) Scott Lang.
10 Peter Parker.

[Flying Fruitbat]

I am sure Moondragon fans will be posting away and defending her genius status.

Until then, I found this under the Marvel Guide at Alvaro Boards:


Moondragon I
Real Name: Heather Douglas
Occupation: (current) Adventurer, priestess, philosopher, scientist, warrior (former) Ruler of the Ba-Bani, engineer and saleswoman for Vaughn Security Systems

I put some words in bold print because I am aware of the selective reading that goes on here. I don't think Scott Lang is in her league.

[o1pickleboy]

I am sure Moondragon fans will be posting away and defending her genius status.

Until then, I found this under the Marvel Guide at Alvaro Boards:


Moondragon I
Real Name: Heather Douglas
Occupation: (current) Adventurer, priestess, philosopher, scientist, warrior (former) Ruler of the Ba-Bani, engineer and saleswoman for Vaughn Security Systems

I put some words in bold print because I am aware of the selective reading that goes on here. I don't think Scott Lang is in her league.


Moondragon has fans? I guess I better not post my "Death to Moondragon' thread I have been thinking about.

[Albert]

I am sure Moondragon fans will be posting away and defending her genius status.

Until then, I found this under the Marvel Guide at Alvaro Boards:


Moondragon I
Real Name: Heather Douglas
Occupation: (current) Adventurer, priestess, philosopher, scientist, warrior (former) Ruler of the Ba-Bani, engineer and saleswoman for Vaughn Security Systems

I put some words in bold print because I am aware of the selective reading that goes on here. I don't think Scott Lang is in her league.

... and yet, no cure for baldness.

[The Fury]

Can, I ask.

Why is it that everyone rates T'Challa as having such high intelligence? Nearly all people have put him above McCoy. What I've read of him, he's never doing anything remotely scientific.

[Calybos]

I need some clarification.

The initial question asked about the Avengers' top scientists, but the discussion so far has been about relative levels of intelligence and engineering or inventions!

Let's not forget, many of the world's top scientists never "invent" anything. Tony Stark, for example, may be a brilliant engineer, but that doesn't make him scientist.

So what is it we're after? Inventive genius? Scientific expertise? Or raw "smarts," however applied? (The most brilliant mind in the world may be a random beggar in Egypt, for example--without the opportunity to train and apply it, you'd never know.)

[Shellhead]

Can, I ask.

Why is it that everyone rates T'Challa as having such high intelligence? Nearly all people have put him above McCoy. What I've read of him, he's never doing anything remotely scientific.

T'challa has a PhD in physics, and designed the Quinjets and also the wings that Falcon uses. He also designed his current costume, which incorporates vibranium for damage absorbtion, allows him to run up walls, fires energy darts, and has a satellite connection that allows him to track anybody that he has tagged with those darts. T'challa used vibranium-based technology to temporarily trap Mephisto on Earth. When battling Iron Man, he released a virus that he had designed to attack Iron Man's artificial heart. In that same fight, Iron Man was wearing his stealth armor, but T'challa used electronic counter-measures to cancel the invisibility of the stealth armor.

[Haunt]

1 (normal)-7(super genius) scale

well these were the only ratings i could find on Marvel's site. i notice that some of them have been updated, since they first started making the bios.

i didn't limit it to the sciences because i think that's a poor way to judge intelligence. i mean you would expect someone like Steve Rogers to be bright, simply because he's considered a great tactician. it speaks well of Carol Danvers that she's on his level.

Captain America - 3

Warbird - 3

Mr Fantastic - 6 (no surprise that he's at the top of the heap)

Iron Man - 6 (likewise)

Pym - 6 (likewise)

Hulk - 6 (likewise, no surprises)

Black Panther - 5 (he's one notch below but that's nothing to scoff at, since he's outsmarted a couple of the characters above)

Beast - 5 (seems accurate since he was a child prodigy but seems to have a very specific field of expertise)

Spiderman - 4

Vision - 4

Ant-Man II - 4


there were a few characters who they didn't have bios for, unfortunately. Black Knight and Moondragon were among them.

[Haunt]

2) Dane Whitman. Yes, should be on the list, somewhere around the Henry McCoy level.

Dane should definately be on this list. his main field of study was physics but he was able to, with ease, use his Uncle Nathaniel's notes to genetically splice wings onto his horse. and he played a significant science role during the Kang War, as well.


3) Scott Lang...how did we miss him? Yes, if someone can manage Reed's lab, he should be there, but waaay on the bottom. Capable of dealing with KirbyTech, not able to create it.


yeah, i'd say he's more of an engineer than a scientist. makes sense because he started out as an Iron Man supporting character. not a genius but bright and a master of the basics of electronics. that's why he would be able to figure out Reed's inventions; even Reed would start with the basics i'm guessing. btw, he was also able to hack into a well-guarded computer database after not having done anything like that for a long time (presumably).

[Shellhead]

Has Scott Lang actually invented anything? He was introduced as a cat burglar, and in that first appearance, his daughter had some kind of health problem and the only doctor that could help her was a captive of Cross Technology Enterprises. Skilled use of technology developed by others doesn't imply actual genius.

[Haunt]

Has Scott Lang actually invented anything? He was introduced as a cat burglar, and in that first appearance, his daughter had some kind of health problem and the only doctor that could help her was a captive of Cross Technology Enterprises. Skilled use of technology developed by others doesn't imply actual genius.


i don't know much about his origin; only that he worked for Stark and had some rank within the company (private lab at least). and Stark did have Ant-Man design (he was hired into the research and design dept) and engineer things for him. that makes me think that Ant-Man made up for his lack of smarts by being, at least, inventive, efficient, and having an eye for detail. i take it that you wouldn't be the type to consider piano playing ability or artistry as genius; because it doesn't involve invention?

but, like i said in the post right above yours, i don't think he's a genius. but, if we're talking about intelligent Avengers, i'd think we would have to include someone who was clever enough to reverse engineer Reed Richards timesled, right advanced computer programs, and hack into a military database, right?

p.s. Tony Stark and Dr.Doom used technology & information developed by others all the time. their genius lay in their ability to put their own futuristic spin on that technology or use that information in new ways.

[Shellhead]

i don't know much about his origin; only that he worked for Stark and had some rank within the company (private lab at least). and Stark did have Ant-Man design (he was hired into the research and design dept) and engineer things for him. that makes me think that Ant-Man made up for his lack of smarts by being, at least, inventive, efficient, and having an eye for detail. i take it that you wouldn't be the type to consider piano playing ability or artistry as genius; because it doesn't involve invention?

but, like i said in the post right above yours, i don't think he's a genius. but, if we're talking about intelligent Avengers, i'd think we would have to include someone who was clever enough to reverse engineer Reed Richards timesled, right advanced computer programs, and hack into a military database, right?

p.s. Tony Stark and Dr.Doom used technology & information developed by others all the time. their genius lay in their ability to put their own futuristic spin on that technology or use that information in new ways.

You've made some good points about Lang's ability to adapt technology, although I would still leave him near the low end of a list of top ten Avengers scientists. Since we're talking about scientists, no, I wouldn't consider musical genius or artistic ability to be relevant criteria.

[The Fury]

First, thanks for the info Shellhead.



Iron Man - 6 (likewise)

Beast - 5 (seems accurate since he was a child prodigy but seems to have a very specific field of expertise)

This is by Marvel...right?

But it makes me wonder what they are going on. Tony Stark is a great engineer, no doubt about that. but McCoy is a biologist mainly as well as some engineering and physics. As far as I am aware, Tony knows very little on biology or genetics. I'd rate McCoy higher then Stark.

[Beamish]

The Officail Handbook - Avengers 2004
Jack of Hearts - 4, I guess for his college degree in poetry (that's what it says - really!)
Wonder Man - 4, it states he has an advanced degree in electrical engineering.
Hank Pym - it lists his intelligence as a 3. Obviously this is wrong.

The Officail Handbook - Avengers 2005
Black Knight - 4, Master's degree in physics, "He is proficient in a wide array of advanced sciences and technologies, including genetic and mechanical engineering."
Jocasta - 4, when she was interfaced with Stark computers, she could have been, in Marvel speak, "omiscient."
Sentry - 5

The Officail Handbook - Women of Marvel 2005
Moondragon - 4, all the entry claims is that she has scientific education
Sersi - 4, I guess even party girls can be smart

The Officail Handbook - Daredevil 2004
Echo/Ronin - 4, nothing specific mentioned as to her higher intelligence.

I didn't find any entries for Machine Man or Stingray, who I would guess would be in the 4 range. Everybody else fell into the 2 and 3 level of intelligence, some of which I thought were off.

I realize the stuff I'm listing is based on Marvel's ranking on intelligence, not the scientific question at hand. I think the term scientist breaks down into two catagories: A) Tech inventors and B) Medical related (biochemists and the like). Iron Man is tech, Beast is medical related. Pym is both. Reed could be listed as both, but for me he is more of a tech type. Are artificially intelligent characters (Vision, Jocasta) really scientists?

[BobC]

Shellhead--while everything you said is true, I think T'Challa's tech side has lacked bombast and oomph. I mean if you put the Panther next to Iron Man and asked who's the tech juggernaut, everyone would say Iron Man without blinking an eye. Why? Because Iron Man has big exciting weapons like plasma blasts and repulsor rays, whereas the Panther seems to have little gimmicks (a co-worker and I just discussed this and he said the Panther was a Batman rip-off who had cheesy little gimmicks like a Batarang). Unfortunately this is how the Panther is percieved by most people.

I want to see the return of an exciting, underground mech jungle where you get the feeling you're in another world instead of a boring embassy.

I don't want to see a planbook on how to take down Galactus, I want to see T'Challa DO IT. I mean Reed Richards has done it several times and hence his reputation.

I also want to see his powers back to the level they at when he first appeared. He was stronger and much faster than an ordinary human, thanks to the heart-shaped herb which has apparently been completely forgotten. If you go back and look at letters to the Avengers over the years, you see many fans complaining about how the Panther has been systematically depowered. One guy even called him, dismissively, "a black Captain America running around without a shield." After taking this herb, the Panther said his body became much more powerful and resiliant--in fact he said it made him "unconquerable."

But today T'Challa is just another costumed athlete nobody. That's sad. I thought he was so frikkin cool when I was a kid.

[Flying Fruitbat]

I knew I would have to defend the genius of Moondragon, but the Panther's? :rolleyes:

I thought T'Challa designed all of Wakanda's defences. This is awesome. Wakanda has a great state of the art army and navy. The man has invented more impressful weapons than just the Falcon's wings and quin jets.

[thik_3rd]

scott lang is pretty much just an electronics technician. give him a manual and he can repair a whatever, but don't expect him to design one or understand it really.

[Sabrinaset]

I am sure Moondragon fans will be posting away and defending her genius status.

Until then, I found this under the Marvel Guide at Alvaro Boards:


Moondragon I
Real Name: Heather Douglas
Occupation: (current) Adventurer, priestess, philosopher, scientist, warrior (former) Ruler of the Ba-Bani, engineer and saleswoman for Vaughn Security Systems

I put some words in bold print because I am aware of the selective reading that goes on here. I don't think Scott Lang is in her league.

Scientist? Engineer??? This won't go well...

KIRK: Chief Engineer, we need Warp 8 and we need it now!

MOONDRAGON: How dare you order me around, you quivering mass of hormones curdled with an over the top acting skill! Be silent, lest I smite you into oblivion with my superior mind!

MCCOY: She's got a point about your acting skills, Jim. Not bad for a Sinead O'Connor wannabe.

MOONDRAGON: I heard that!

[Shellhead]

Scientist? Engineer??? This won't go well...

KIRK: Chief Engineer, we need Warp 8 and we need it now!

MOONDRAGON: How dare you order me around, you quivering mass of hormones curdled with an over the top acting skill! Be silent, lest I smite you into oblivion with my superior mind!

MCCOY: She's got a point about your acting skills, Jim. Not bad for a Sinead O'Connor wannabe.

MOONDRAGON: I heard that!

I've never forgiven Moondragon for the first Star Trek movie.

[Sabrinaset]

Okay, I've been looking around, and the closest I've gotten to any "proof" Moondragon is a scientist is this...

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/text/Moondragon-mi.txt

Key portion...



3 Acrobatics 13-
3 Breakfall 13-
3 Contortionist 13-
3 Deduction 13-
3 Inventor 13-
4 Fast Strike (OCV +2, DCV +0, 5d6)
3 Lightsleep
4 Martial Disarm (OCV -1, DCV +1)
4 Martial Dodge (OCV --, DCV +

...so someone else is saying she's an inventor, but honestly, I have yet to find anything she's invented, scientific feats, or any time spent in a lab. It seems to be a case where everyone is saying it and I guess we're supposed to take Marvel's word for it even though they provide no actual proof of it in canon. Again, as with the case of the Sentry, if someone would provide a scan of Moondragon actually behaving like a scientist, I'll happily admit I'm wrong here.

[Rich L]

I've never forgiven Moondragon for the first Star Trek movie.

Best. Quote. Ever. :D

[Haunt]

First, thanks for the info Shellhead.


This is by Marvel...right?

But it makes me wonder what they are going on. Tony Stark is a great engineer, no doubt about that. but McCoy is a biologist mainly as well as some engineering and physics. As far as I am aware, Tony knows very little on biology or genetics. I'd rate McCoy higher then Stark.

but you'd, likely, be wrong. their ranking isn't limited to science; like this thread is. McCoy might be the smartest biologist on the planet; if Pym and Reed Richards weren't alive. but his knowledge of biology isn't futuristic; like the High Evolutionary's for instance. that's how he differs from Tony Stark. Stark is an anomaly. he hasn't just mastered the best of today's science but created tech that wouldn't have been seen for decades to come. he's a tech-futurist. Hank showed scientific curiousity as a child; whereas Tony was a prodigy & attended college in his early teens (iirc). there is just no doubt that Stark is smarter; all around. that said, no one can beat McCoy's vocabulary.


Shellhead--while everything you said is true, I think T'Challa's tech side has lacked bombast and oomph. I mean if you put the Panther next to Iron Man and asked who's the tech juggernaut, everyone would say Iron Man without blinking an eye. Why? Because Iron Man has big exciting weapons like plasma blasts and repulsor rays, whereas the Panther seems to have little gimmicks (a co-worker and I just discussed this and he said the Panther was a Batman rip-off who had cheesy little gimmicks like a Batarang). Unfortunately this is how the Panther is percieved by most people.

I want to see the return of an exciting, underground mech jungle where you get the feeling you're in another world instead of a boring embassy.

I don't want to see a planbook on how to take down Galactus, I want to see T'Challa DO IT. I mean Reed Richards has done it several times and hence his reputation.


i think the kimoyo cards are very impressive.



scott lang is pretty much just an electronics technician. give him a manual and he can repair a whatever, but don't expect him to design one or understand it really.

i guess that would depend on who is writing him. unless i'm mixing him up with another character, Scott Lang worked for Tony Stark in the design department. he got his job by submitting designs to Tony. you sort of have to understand electronics to be able to do that. and, if all he could do was follow a manual, Tony wouldn't have sought him out to help bypass Justin Hammer's security system. and, could be wrong, but he redesigned the shiny bulb on his head to project electricity. you'd have to know a few things about electricity to do that safely. but if you're just talking about time machines and iron man's armor, then yeah. he definately couldn't build either just using his brain power. anyways, i'm not sure why he's in this thread. he's an engineer; not a scientist.

[Wannabe]

If Peter Parker wanted to, he probably could have cured cancer in about a year and a half. he invented those webshooters and fluid in what, a week tops? When he was 15 mind you. He also invented the spider tracer that interacts with his spider sense. That also inspired the device that they use to keep people on house arrest in real life. He just doesn't have the time.

[Sabrinaset]

If Peter Parker wanted to, he probably could have cured cancer in about a year and a half. he invented those webshooters and fluid in what, a week tops? When he was 15 mind you. He also invented the spider tracer that interacts with his spider sense. That also inspired the device that they use to keep people on house arrest in real life. He just doesn't have the time.

Well, yeah. The problem is, just as with Banner, neither one of them have really done anything *lately*. Banner could be an easy second in the rankings, but his tendancy to hang out in the middle of nowhere acting like a ten-year old, or staying in Vegas and being a leg-breaker, causes him to drop in the rankings because he a) isn't keeping up with current tech, and b) isn't performing the feats to maintain the high level he should have had he not become the Hulk.
Peter is, in his own way, at the same level, or worse. Has he pulled any significant lab time anywhere outside of a high school/college science lab...places not necessarily known for inspired research? Furthermore, he has fewer feats than Banner. Peter invented a web-shooter. Banner invented the Gamma Bomb...a slightly bigger scientific feat. He may well have the potential, but if all he's doing is playing high school teacher and photographer, he's not keeping up with the latest tech, and he's gunna fall behind. WAY behind. Even Lang would still be ahead, having pulled more lab time at Four Freedoms Plaza than Peter.

[ColdFury]

I'd like to float Quasar into the low end of the list. Not so much of an inventor, mind you, though he DID make those never really explained security devices in his own book. But he does seem to have a pretty good handle on physics (Cosmic Physics, even) due to the nature of his powers and what not, so I'd rank him as a fair scientist.

In House of M's Thunderbolt's tie in, he was even one of the 'scientists' running around the lab.

I think I'd probably rank him at or above Spider-Man and Scott Lang in the science department.

[StoneGold]

In House of M's Thunderbolt's tie in, he was even one of the 'scientists' running around the lab.

I think that had more to do with unresolved issues between Wendell and his father, who was a scientist, and Wanda wish fulfillment.

[Jack]

Peter Parker has raw intelligence on the level of Reed Richards... what he doesn't have is the training, money or years of experience.

If Peter had never become Spider-Man, he might well be the number two scientist of the Marvel Universe by now. Remember he got his powers when he was just a teenager, and his sense of responsibility forced him to keep on being Spider-Man all the time. The time that Reed was spending studying science and creating inventions Peter spent saving people from muggers and beating up people dressed as giant rhinos. Which is not to say that he's squandered his time, because he's saved the world many times over... but as long as he remains Spider-Man his intellectual potential will go unrealised. I've seen Reed say that Peter had test scores the same as when Reed was his age, and also Hank Pym admitting that Peter is smarter than him.

[Biggbuttmcgruff!!!!]

Yeah,Ive always asssumed his intelligence was more of a raw potential thing. Just because given the opportunity, he generally impresses people. Just recently, hank pym was in marvel knights spider-man and made some comment about how smart peter was.

[Calybos]

Jack: Good point.

And another reminder, people: "science" is NOT the same thing as "inventions." Plenty of brilliant scientists never "invent" a bloody thing, and coming up with nifty gadgets like web-shooters, or even repulsor rays, doesn't make you a scientist.

[Jack]

Yeah, right now Peter can't really compare with any of the purer scientists. He's just someone dabbling in various fields. But give him a few years of time to work purely on it and he'd be up with them... unfortunately it's never going to happen as long as he's Spider-Man.

[Red State Cap]

Hmm, I'm pretty sure I remember Captain America putting together a time machine about 20 years ago. Can't remember the issue.
I suppose that would make him a scientist. ;)

RSC

[Harold of the Rocks]

Hmm, I'm pretty sure I remember Captain America putting together a time machine about 20 years ago. Can't remember the issue.
I suppose that would make him a scientist. ;)

RSC

"Put together"? or design? (Insert flux capacitor A into radiation shielding B...)

He might just be another Bob Vila. A master assembler. You're the Cap historian, anywho. You'd have to elaborate if you care to.

[Red State Cap]

It's been a very long time, so I don't have even a clue what issue it was in. I'm pretty sure it was the Avengers. Unfortunately, I don't feel like browsing a few hundred back issues to find it.
The list of people who "built" or "designed" a time-machine has to be a short one, though...

RSC

[StoneGold]

It's been a very long time, so I don't have even a clue what issue it was in. I'm pretty sure it was the Avengers. Unfortunately, I don't feel like browsing a few hundred back issues to find it.
The list of people who "built" or "designed" a time-machine has to be a short one, though...

RSC
20 years ago? Wonder Man did it in about that time frame in West Coast Avengers. Although it was more hotwiring Dr. Doom's busted time machine. Can't think of any situation around 1985 where Cap was messing around too much with time travel.

[Shellhead]

Can't think of any situation around 1985 where Cap was messing around too much with time travel.

It might have involved Deathlok, when he guest-starred in Captain America for a story arc.

[StoneGold]

It might have involved Deathlok, when he guest-starred in Captain America for a story arc.
Yeah, I was thinking that after I hit enter. I don't seem to remember Cap making a time machine there though. And it certainly wasn't in Avengers. Avengers didn't do any time travel wackiness around that time until after Cap had left the team, with the Cross Council of Kangs.

[Calybos]

It doesn't matter anyway. "Building" anything--even a time machine--doesn't make you a scientist.

[Red State Cap]

It doesn't matter anyway. "Building" anything--even a time machine--doesn't make you a scientist.
Now that's an interesting statement!

RSC

[corinthian_noire]

i think that we are realy forgeting someone important..... Bill Foster but you may know him as Black Golieth

wasnt it bill that practically cured Hank pym when he was stuck at the 10 ft mark

i am sure he can be placed higher then people like scott lang, spiderman, and perhaps arguably even banner.

does anyone want to comment on the scientific abilities of the submariner?

[Monty_Cristo]

i think that we are realy forgeting someone important..... Bill Foster but you may know him as Black Golieth

wasnt it bill that practically cured Hank pym when he was stuck at the 10 ft mark



was Bill even an official Avenger? which roster did he serve on?


does anyone want to comment on the scientific abilities of the submariner?

i will. he has none.

[COUNT De MONET]

I'm pretty sure Dr. Bill (Black Goliath) Foster was never an official Avenger. He hung around Avengers West Coast deserters Mockingbird, Tigra and Moon Knight for an adventure in annual, but that's about it.

I've seen a number of excellent lists that I'd be hard pressed to argue, so I won't bother. And apparently, EVERYBODY can at least agree that Mister Fantastic is the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

I'll tell you who the LAZIEST mfs are:

1. Dr. Robert "Bruce, Hulk, David, Mr. Fixit, Sakaarson, Worldbreaker" Banner.

2. Peter "Spider-Man" Parker.

3. Dane "Black Knight" Whitman.

4. Dr. Henry "Ant-Man, Giant-Man, Goliath, Yellowjacket, Dirty Wife-beater" Pym.


In my opinion, these are the cats who are posessed of the most potential, yet have done a pitiful amount in accomplishments, relatively speaking. Dr. Pym is what The Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe Deluxe Edition referrs to as an "Extraordinary Genius", meaning he is one of the world's foremost authorities in multiple areas of science (biology, robotics, enginerring, physics). This category includes people like Doctor Doom, The Mandarin, , Magneto, The Mole Man and The High Evolutionary, yet what has he done besides Ultron and the Pym Particles? Perhaps I'm holding Hank up to too high a standard, but I think he should be doing more....as should the others on my lazy list.

[IronPalm]

Usually, an Avengers (new or old) roster contains at least one brilliant scientist, sometimes more than a couple. List the top ten brilliant scientists that have been Avengers, and try to rank them. Use whatever criteria you want, number of PhDs, number of inventions, range of areas of science worked in, fame, fortune, whatever.

1. Reed Richards
2. Hank Pym
3. Tony Stark
4. T'challa
5. Hank McCoy
6. Sentry
7. Stingray? (was he an Avenger, or just a reservist?)
8. Peter Parker
9. Wonder Man? (was he an inventor, or just an business man?)
10. Bruce Banner

damn, where is the female marvel scientist/heroes?

[Capt USA]

Glad to see Pym getting treated fairly in this thread. Heck even though Reed can solve everything I think Pym is pretty close to him in practical inventions. Reed produce one story solution inventions better than anyone in comics, but Stark, Pym and T'Challa have as many if not more regularly used items out there.

I would still list Reed as number one, and Stark is probably overall smarter than Pym, definately much better as a business man or even as on a social level, but when it comes to diversity of science Pym has him beat.

1. Reed
2. Pym
3. Stark
4. T'Challa
------------

after that it's tougher, and I'm sorry but Sentry hasn't done anything even with all the forced retconning to belong on this list.

[Monty_Cristo]

i think we should do a "rank the avenger engineers" thread next. scott lang always winds up at the bottom of these smart polls but he actually has quite the tech resume. Stark thought highly enough of him to overlook his criminal past and put Scott in charge of most of the bigger projects at Stark International. he had his own private lab (not something that many other stark employees had). he designed a seriously dangerous electronics defense system for the company. he rigged the ant-man helmet he "inherited" so that he could project electrical blasts; independent of Yellowjacket. he's probably better at most than quickly figuring out exotic technology ex. he has reprogrammed Reed Richards' "time sled" and a Doombot. he also learned the kree language before becoming an Avenger.
----
Soldier: "I've been a radio man 5 years Dr.Pym but i've never seen anybody hook up a satellite com-link as fast as you!

Ant-man: "Thanks solider but i'm not Henry Pym. He gave up this costume & retired from the hero biz some time ago. Just call me Ant-Man, okay?" Avengers 276
------
Guard: "He's gone! vanished w/o a trace. but the guards claim he never left this room! The Viso-screen! it's been dismantled! Impossible! a score of our most trained technicians would need *hours* to take it apart so completely. Our former prisoner appears to be a man of extraordinary talents! We have *severely underestimated* him!" Marvel Two-In-One #87
----
"Scott Lang, you've been a model prisoner--but then, i expected as much. You're genius with electronics sets you above the usual criminal mind. I"ll never understand why you got into burglary." -- Warden at Ryker's Island Penitentiary Marvel Premiere #47
----
" I was able to reprogram it to follow orders, then had it break off the attack. it should be completely obedient now." -- Scott Lang speaking to Ben Grimm after he reprograms the monstroid robot Silver Surfer #95

[COUNT De MONET]

damn, where is the female marvel scientist/heroes?

Ahh, they're probably too busy shoppin' or gettin' their hair made up nice an' pretty. 'Sides, ever'body knows wimmen folk hate math n' science. That's man's work. Only chemistry they need to be good at is cookin' my supper!

Now that I got that chauvinist joke/diatribe out of my system, IronPalm makes a good point. You can count the female scientists of note in the Marvel Universe on one hand, and have about three fingers left over. There's Dr. Erica Sondheim, the neurosurgeon who saved Tony Stark from paralysis when no one else could, the late and sorely lamented Dr. Moira Mactaggert, second only to professor Charles Xavier in mutant research, Dr. Alyssa Moy Castle ("Mrs. Fantastic"), a scientist endowed with overall intellect that rivals that of even her old flame Reed Richards himself, Kitty "Shadowcat" Pryde, a budding genius engineer...and then...no one. I'm sure I've missed some people, so feel free to share.

It is indicative of the somewhat chauvanistic time the Marvel Universe was born that we don't have more prominent female scientists and/or thinkers. And the lack amongst the Avengers, Earth's foremost band of superheroes, is rather appalling.

[Monty_Cristo]

Ahh, they're probably too busy shoppin' or gettin' their hair made up nice an' pretty. 'Sides, ever'body knows wimmen folk hate math n' science. That's man's work. Only chemistry they need to be good at is cookin' my supper!

Now that I got that chauvinist joke/diatribe out of my system, IronPalm makes a good point. You can count the female scientists of note in the Marvel Universe on one hand, and have about three fingers left over. There's Dr. Erica Sondheim, the neurosurgeon who saved Tony Stark from paralysis when no one else could, the late and sorely lamented Dr. Moira Mactaggert, second only to professor Charles Xavier in mutant research, Dr. Alyssa Moy Castle ("Mrs. Fantastic"), a scientist endowed with overall intellect that rivals that of even her old flame Reed Richards himself, Kitty "Shadowcat" Pryde, a budding genius engineer...and then...no one. I'm sure I've missed some people, so feel free to share.

It is indicative of the somewhat chauvanistic time the Marvel Universe was born that we don't have more prominent female scientists and/or thinkers. And the lack amongst the Avengers, Earth's foremost band of superheroes, is rather appalling.

there are no shortage of female geniuses. problem is that none of them are in high profile positions (like being an avenger, for instance). add Doc Nightshade, Stunner, Superia, and Augusta Seger to the list.

[GozertheGozarian]

i think we should do a "rank the avenger engineers" thread next. scott lang always winds up at the bottom of these smart polls but he actually has quite the tech resume. Stark thought highly enough of him to overlook his criminal past and put Scott in charge of most of the bigger projects at Stark International. he had his own private lab (not something that many other stark employees had). he designed a seriously dangerous electronics defense system for the company. he rigged the ant-man helmet he "inherited" so that he could project electrical blasts; independent of Yellowjacket. he's probably better at most than quickly figuring out exotic technology ex. he has reprogrammed Reed Richards' "time sled" and a Doombot. he also learned the kree language before becoming an Avenger.
----
Soldier: "I've been a radio man 5 years Dr.Pym but i've never seen anybody hook up a satellite com-link as fast as you!

Ant-man: "Thanks solider but i'm not Henry Pym. He gave up this costume & retired from the hero biz some time ago. Just call me Ant-Man, okay?" Avengers 276
------
Guard: "He's gone! vanished w/o a trace. but the guards claim he never left this room! The Viso-screen! it's been dismantled! Impossible! a score of our most trained technicians would need *hours* to take it apart so completely. Our former prisoner appears to be a man of extraordinary talents! We have *severely underestimated* him!" Marvel Two-In-One #87
----
"Scott Lang, you've been a model prisoner--but then, i expected as much. You're genius with electronics sets you above the usual criminal mind. I"ll never understand why you got into burglary." -- Warden at Ryker's Island Penitentiary Marvel Premiere #47
----
" I was able to reprogram it to follow orders, then had it break off the attack. it should be completely obedient now." -- Scott Lang speaking to Ben Grimm after he reprograms the monstroid robot Silver Surfer #95
No matter what the thread title says, this is a best engineers list.

[Monty_Cristo]

No matter what the thread title says, this is a best engineers list.

seems more like a best inventors list.

[mikekerr3]

Now that's an interesting statement!

RSC

Engineers build stuff, Scientist provide the theory, pretty simple thing.

Einstein, Hoyle,Pascal, Hawkings and newton. those are scientsist by the standard you guys are using since the didn't build anything they weren't great.

Scientists build knowledge and Engineers built stuff

[Shellhead]

No matter what the thread title says, this is a best engineers list.

This is comics. Scientists wear lab coats and engineers wear hard hats. ;)

[Iron_Stark]

Tony is either #2 or #3, he did gradute frim MIT at the age of 15 after all.

[rpriske]

I'll play.

I would rank them like this:

1. Reed Richards
2. Tony Stark
3. Hank McCoy
4. Hank Pym
5. Bruce Banner
6. Peter Parker
7. Stingray
8. T'challa
9. Sentry
10. Wonder Man

Not that I would put the last two on the list at all...

[stelok]

1. Reed Richards- a scientist
2. Hank Pym- a scientist
3. Tony Stark- an inventor
4. T'challa- a technician, engineer
5. Bruce Banner- an expert on radiation
6. Hank McCoy- a geneticist
7. Stingray- marine biologist
8. Sentry

[theardri]

Engineers build stuff, Scientist provide the theory, pretty simple thing.

Einstein, Hoyle,Pascal, Hawkings and newton. those are scientsist by the standard you guys are using since the didn't build anything they weren't great.

Scientists build knowledge and Engineers built stuff

Umm not to say you are wrong or anything ....

Scientists can "build stuff too" if it's the right Science. Synthetic Chemistry (for example (I hold a PhD in Synthetic Organic Chemistry and work in the Pharma Industry)) involves the (duh) Synthesis of new compounds or at least new ways of doing old ones. A chemical "engineer" is a misnomer as they are still a Chemist. Chemistry is a Scientist. Thus Scientists can ”make stuff"

[theardri]

1. Reed Richards- a scientist
2. Hank Pym- a scientist
3. Tony Stark- an inventor
4. T'challa- a technician, engineer
5. Bruce Banner- an expert on radiation
6. Hank McCoy- a geneticist
7. Stingray- marine biologist
8. Sentry


Banner is also a scientist (Dr Banner would hold (probably) a PhD in Physics or perhaps Chemistry (or both).

Hank is a scientist (genetics is a science)
Similarly Stingray is a scientist.

The Discipline is still a science hence the title is Scientist

[The Cat]

1. Reed Richards
2. T'Challa | 3. Tony Stark (there's a reason why they are rivals!!!)
4. Hank Pym
5. Bruce Banner
6. Hank McCoy
7. Bill Foster
8. Peter Parker
9. Stingray









10. Sentry

[mikekerr3]

Umm not to say you are wrong or anything ....

Scientists can "build stuff too" if it's the right Science. Synthetic Chemistry (for example (I hold a PhD in Synthetic Organic Chemistry and work in the Pharma Industry)) involves the (duh) Synthesis of new compounds or at least new ways of doing old ones. A chemical "engineer" is a misnomer as they are still a Chemist. Chemistry is a Scientist. Thus Scientists can ”make stuff"

You are right but scientist is classically judged by the facts he produces, an engineer by the material product he designs. Scientists can and do make stuff but that is normally not their function. engineers can do research but that is not thier primary function. There are some places where the boundaries are soft chemistry and biology are two but that is the general rule.

Do you or an engineer design the production machinery to allow the procut to be mass produced?