Should Batman hate Superman?

[megladon8]

First I'll get it out in the open that this is a thread about Jeph Loeb's SUPERMAN/BATMAN series. I am a huge, devoted fan of the series, and I realize that there are a lot of haters on here.

If you are just going to use this thread to post how much you hate the series or Jeph Loeb, don't bother. Go do it somewhere else.

Now, onto the discussion...


In the story arc Absolute Power, Batman is forced to re-watch the killing of his parents (with Superman by his side). Instead of sitting idley (sp?) by, he grabs a gun and shoots the burglar in the head.

Batman disappears. He doesn't exist anymore.

Superman travels into the future (or...what SHOULD be the present) and finds Bruce Wayne at home, enjoying the life of a billionnaire playboy, alongside his loving parents. However, without Batman, the world has gone to hell.

Superman must bring Batman back...he must remind him of the loss he had in his past, and, in turn, must go back once again and re-live the definitive moment in Bruce Wayne's past, this time uninterrupted.

At one point, Superman thinks that, for all intents and purposes, Bruce has every right to hate him. He finally had a happy life, and Superman took it away from him for the good of the rest of the world.

As you no doubt remember from DKR, Batman is quite intent on letting Superman know that HE will be the one that ends him.

Do you think this incident in SUPERMAN/BATMAN has altered their friendship/partnership? Do you think it will be part of the fuel Batman uses to, eventually, kill Superman?

[Alan2099]

Batman wouldn't like it, but he'd be a hypocrite to make a point out of when he routinely stops all over others for the good of the world.

[Tadhg]

I think the Superman/Batman animosity is way too played out. It worked really well in the confines of DKR/DKSA but in general I find it to be rather tedious.

[megladon8]

I think the Superman/Batman animosity is way too played out. It worked really well in the confines of DKR/DKSA but in general I find it to be rather tedious.


I wouldn't say it's animosity. That's a little strong.

They are, for all intents and purposes, best friends. They just don't get along. I know I don't get along very well with my best friend, but I'd still die for him.

Anyways, I think they're very much Yin and Yan.

[jerrymcl89]

At one point, Superman thinks that, for all intents and purposes, Bruce has every right to hate him. He finally had a happy life, and Superman took it away from him for the good of the rest of the world.

Do you think this incident in SUPERMAN/BATMAN has altered their friendship/partnership? Do you think it will be part of the fuel Batman uses to, eventually, kill Superman?

The thing is, Batman would surely do the same thing to someone else for the good of the world. So although many people would hate Superman for what he did, I don't really see how Batman can.

[megladon8]

The thing is, Batman would surely do the same thing to someone else for the good of the world. So although many people would hate Superman for what he did, I don't really see how Batman can.

Yes but Batman is also pro at obsessing over things.

[Choppa]

I think animosity is strong as well. Batman simply doesn't trust him because he can't control him. Can you blame him? His parents were killed right in front of him and he couldn't do anything about it.

[Tadhg]

Well I can't speak about the Absolute Power arc in particular as I haven't read it, but I'd say animosity does fit for the portrayal of the Superman/Batman dynamic in recent years. The Kessel World's Finest mini, Infinite Crisis, Batman's reaction to the Emperor Joker storyline. The relationship has been more resentful than friendly in the last years.

[megladon8]

Well I can't speak about the Absolute Power arc in particular as I haven't read it, but I'd say animosity does fit for the portrayal of the Superman/Batman dynamic in recent years. The Kessel World's Finest mini, Infinite Crisis, Batman's reaction to the Emperor Joker storyline. The relationship has been more resentful than friendly in the last years.


THat's a good point.

However, I still think they both care about each other a great deal.


I think animosity is strong as well. Batman simply doesn't trust him because he can't control him. Can you blame him? His parents were killed right in front of him and he couldn't do anything about it.

I agree that Batman's distrust is because Superman is someone that cannot be controlled.

I love when Batman says something along the lines of...

"Sometimes I look at Clark and I can't help but see a God. Fortunately for all of us, he's never thought of himself that way."

[cactusmaac]

That would make more sense if there weren't a zillion other heroes out there, who he couldn't control either.

[megladon8]

That would make more sense if there weren't a zillion other heroes out there, who he couldn't control either.

Yes, but he could beat any one of them. And has proven so (in some cases, on numerous occasions).

Superman would be his greatest challenge, since even he (Batman) can't help but see him as a god.

[protege]

First I'll get it out in the open that this is a thread about Jeph Loeb's SUPERMAN/BATMAN series. I am a huge, devoted fan of the series, and I realize that there are a lot of haters on here.

If you are just going to use this thread to post how much you hate the series or Jeph Loeb, don't bother. Go do it somewhere else.

Now, onto the discussion...


In the story arc Absolute Power, Batman is forced to re-watch the killing of his parents (with Superman by his side). Instead of sitting idley (sp?) by, he grabs a gun and shoots the burglar in the head.

Batman disappears. He doesn't exist anymore.

Superman travels into the future (or...what SHOULD be the present) and finds Bruce Wayne at home, enjoying the life of a billionnaire playboy, alongside his loving parents. However, without Batman, the world has gone to hell.

Superman must bring Batman back...he must remind him of the loss he had in his past, and, in turn, must go back once again and re-live the definitive moment in Bruce Wayne's past, this time uninterrupted.

At one point, Superman thinks that, for all intents and purposes, Bruce has every right to hate him. He finally had a happy life, and Superman took it away from him for the good of the rest of the world.

As you no doubt remember from DKR, Batman is quite intent on letting Superman know that HE will be the one that ends him.

Do you think this incident in SUPERMAN/BATMAN has altered their friendship/partnership? Do you think it will be part of the fuel Batman uses to, eventually, kill Superman?
So, for all intents and purposes, bruce became the hing he only was pretending to be before; a vapid, shallow playboy, oblivious to the world's suffering? Why should he hate Supes for taking him away from that?

[Ruthless_Pryde]

Animosity is way to strong. They have a mutual respect for each other professionally. But I really think it is contempt Bat's has for Supes.

There personalites are diametrically opposed, and they are complete polar opposites. There can't help but be some head butting from time to time.
But there is always respect for each other. At the end of the day, there is no one the other person trusts more.

Well anyway,I don't beleive they hate each other, but they do get on the others nerves.

They have a battle born resepct for each other and at the end of the day that transcends their occasional disputes.

[megladon8]

So, for all intents and purposes, bruce became the hing he only was pretending to be before; a vapid, shallow playboy, oblivious to the world's suffering? Why should he hate Supes for taking him away from that?


He was happy.

Superman made him relive that horrible tragedy twice more, and took away a life with his parents.

[Lord_Archive]

He was happy.

Superman made him relive that horrible tragedy twice more, and took away a life with his parents.

But if Batman only exists in a timeline where his parents died that night, he wouldn't (or at least shouldn't.. I haven't read the arc) be able to remember the life with his family.

The question is, would Batman have disapproved of his counterpart's lifestyle (if he saw what he and the world had become if there was no Batman) so much that he would want it to go back to the way it was?

[Guts/Batman]

Anyone wanna tell me how this fits into DCU continuity (because I know this is in continuity)?

[megladon8]

Anyone wanna tell me how this fits into DCU continuity (because I know this is in continuity)?


I don't really understand your question.

Do you mean like, from a timeline perspective? How it fits into the timeline of the DCU?

Because if that's what you mean...well...it kind of covers the whole timeline...it pretty much spans like 10,000 years.

[Chad G.]

Batman wouldn't like it, but he'd be a hypocrite to make a point out of when he routinely stops all over others for the good of the world.

.........................

Why am I not shocked that you would take advantage of an opportunity to trash Batman? :cool:



So, for all intents and purposes, bruce became the hing he only was pretending to be before; a vapid, shallow playboy, oblivious to the world's suffering? Why should he hate Supes for taking him away from that?

No, I think you missed the point. In the alternate timeline, Bruce never saw his parents die, never had to become the Batman. So for him to be a "vapid" or "shallow" playboy simply shows what the normal progression of things would have been. The "real" Batman, IMO, hasn't known happiness since the day his parents died, and in all likelihood, never will. He is driven by a higher purpose, so to speak. But I don't think that he would hate Clark for it. Far from it.

On a realted note, as far as being alongs these lines, has anyone read Superman/Batman Generations, 1 and 2. At the end of 2, there is a great section about where Pa Kent has a machine that could look back in time, and saw where the Waynes would be killed. He even warned Thomas, but also showed him what Bruce would grow up to become. Thomas STILL made the decision to allow himself to be killed, for the good of the world as a whole. I believe Bruce has him fathers moral compunctions, and would have understood. But that is an elseworlds story though.

Supes and Batmans interaction can be one of the most fascinating relationships to watch between two characters in all of fiction. 2 men who are at their core the best of friends. Probably the only person the other truly trusts. But when they are written as having animosity towards each other it is painful to watch. Not as in bad writing, but as in it hurts to see 2 characters who shouldn't behave like that ct like asses. Batman right now is a bit out of control with some of his comments. The whole "never inspired since you were dead thing" crossed a line. In that instance, he went to far. But overall, I love to read the two of them together. They make a great team.

[Guts/Batman]

I don't really understand your question.

Do you mean like, from a timeline perspective? How it fits into the timeline of the DCU?

Yea...With IC going on and BatGod in this story...it's kinda hard to tell where it lays in current DCU continuity.

That's what I want to know because this is confusing as hell. I wish this was out of continuity but...nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, we can't have that.

[megladon8]

Yea...With IC going on and BatGod in this story...it's kinda hard to tell where it lays in current DCU continuity.

That's what I want to know because this is confusing as hell. I wish this was out of continuity but...nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, we can't have that.



Do you wish it was out of continuity because of this timeline issue, or because you don't like the series?

Or a little of both?

[Guts/Batman]

Do you wish it was out of continuity because of this timeline issue, or because you don't like the series?

Or a little of both?

95% because it doesn't mesh with any continuity in DC right now. It is one of the leading factors of Batman's continuity hell. But Batman has so many appearances that it is insane to calculate his timeline.

I don't like the series. I have said as much. There's too much jobbing and it is too silly for my taste.

I only bought the 3 issues I did because of Darkseid. When Darkseid got outsmarted by a human, his OE didn't go around WW, and then beaten by Superman...that was the last straw.

Loeb will not get any money from me for awhile.