INFINITE CRISIS #3 Megathread: Reviews & Spoilers

[Paul Newell]

This thread is for posting about the third issue of Infinite Crisis. Please put any thoughts and questions, about the actual issue, here. By limiting it to this particular thread we hope to head off the duplicate conversations which plagued the releases of Identity Crisis and Countdown. If you wish to post about something tangental to this issue then please feel free to start a separate thread. Any separate thread that deals directly with the issue will be merged here.

As with previous issues, if you do get your hands on a copy earlier than the release date, then please use the [SPOIL ] [/SPOIL ] tags until the issue is available freely. - No need for spoiler tags now.

And, as always, please be aware of the rules and guidelines of this board and stay on topic.

Thanks.

[Jor-el's Son]

come on somebody has to have something...................

[Watchman]

come on somebody has to have something...................
Patience is a virtue, young grasshopper.

[mohammedali]

Yeah, the comics not out for a few more days. Soon though.

Mohammed Ali

[Paul Newell]

Yeah, the comics not out for a few more days. Soon though.

Mohammed Ali

Some people get to see a preview copy though. I expect we'll see some people posting spoilers tomorrow.

[LordEd1976]

I'm debating whether or not to run out and grab on Wednesday or wait till after Christmas.

I fear hearing spoilers and reviews will have the same effect on me as a guy in AA watching a drunk at bar.

[Jason H]

I'll buy it wednesday afternoon. That way I won't be tempted by any spoilers.

[LordEd1976]

I'll buy it wednesday afternoon. That way I won't be tempted by any spoilers.

i might just follow ur lead

[Mark Thorson]

Still no spoilers? That's bad. And good!

[Jor-el's Son]

some spoilers from a guy over at newsarama....don't know for sure if he is for real but he gives a quote supposedly in the comic......

[borateen]

some spoilers from a guy over at newsarama....don't know for sure if he is for real but he gives a quote supposedly in the comic......

And that quote is...

[Jor-el's Son]

Villan (or villians) are revealed
No MAJOR deaths

LOTS explained....

Inking looks solid

Nothing on Ray that I noticed
No "new" Earth 2 character appearances

Thats all I can give except to say.

It is REALLY good.

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53004
That is what he said

[Nick Kal]

There is a damn transportation strike in NY so I can't get to the comic store! :(

[Max_Dillon]

Can't wait til tommorow

[Jor-el's Son]

Ok got some spoilers from the DC board

Spoiler Alert Extreme




Infinite Crisis 3 SPOILERS!!!!!!!
Posted: Dec 20, 2005 4:43 PM Reply


Ok,last time people got upset when I did'nt give them actual spoilers so this time I'm just going to give them.

I recieved my books early again this week so here it goes.
We start out at Atlantis where Aquaman,Mera,Tempest,Dolphin and a Mermaid named Lori(Lemrus?Thought she was dead?)and others are battling the Society.It looks like Arion is there also.Tempest is in the middle of some sort of ritual when The Spectre shows up and it looks like he just crushes Atlantis with his Ginourmous hand.Then he says "Vengance is mine."Then we pop over to Paradise Island where the Amazonions and Wonder Woman are fighting a helluva lot of Omacs.It turns out the Omacs are telivising the whole thing and making the Amazons look very warlike and not really committed to peace as they have said.Then we cut to the Batcave where Batman is trying to get brother eye to stop its evil plans.It says no,then Bats gets really pissed and throws a chair into the moniter then has a little breakdown.He says to himself"This wasn't supposed to happen."A flash of his Folks getting killed."I cant Breathe.Cant...Do this anymore."A shot of him as a boy at their graves."God...I wish..."A shot of him holding a dead Jason Todd."...I just wish I could start over."Then Earth-2 Supes come's out of the shadows and tell him he can start over.Bats says "Superman?" "Yes but not the one you know.Not yet."Is his reply.
Next is Power girl talking to E-2 Lois and Alexander.Superboy comes in and continues to try to talk Kara into helping them change things back.
Next we're in El Paso Texas.A guy named Jaime is talking college stuff with what I guess are his brother and sister
when what looks like meteors start falling on the city.I frst introduction to the the guy thats gonna be the new Blue Beetle.

I think thats all I'll give you guys.The rest has some stuff I really dont want to spoil for you guys.(Besides I have to go back to work.)
I'll try to get back here at break time and give you more if I can.

[hitokiri_]

i can't resist the spoilers. arrgh!!!! i just got spoiled!

[SirChasm]

More spoilers from the same source at dccomics.com boards


Well supes discusses how his Earth was better and that he thinks that his Earths Bruce's death was the reason for this Earths differince in hero's.
Bats asks him If people are better on his Earth and Supes says yes.Then Bats asks him if the Earth-2 Dick Grayson is a better person than ours and Supes says "...No."At that point Bats takes out his peaice of Kryptonite that our Supes gave him and try's using it on him.Supes-2 then tell him our Kryptonite does'nt hurt him "at least physiclly."Supes proceeds to use his heat vision on the ring and destroys the kryptonite.He then flys away saying that it would have been great to have the "worlds finest" together again.
Then Bats procceeds to watch a security tape of what happend in the tower just before it blew up.
Ok if you guys dont want to know the huge surprise of the end turn away now!


We go to Lex Luthor-1 confronting Lex-2,They jibe and attack one another then our Lex hits the other Lex's computer and reveals that the other lex is actually Alexander Luthor!


I copied and pasted this so any spelling mistakes belong to the original poster! :D

[SirChasm]

Correct me if I'm wrong too but wasn't the big spoiler there leaked?

In the Absolute Crisis if I remember correctly? Man that's almost as bad as the Ronin reveal :D

[Murrocko]

No .... Nightwing?

[Lex]

i can't resist the spoilers. arrgh!!!! i just got spoiled!Thank God for spoiler text.

"What? You mean I have to highlight the text to read the spoiler? Screw that, too much work."

[SirChasm]

Now I just read this too over at dccomics...

Sounds a bit suspect to me but...


SPOILER******************************************* ************************************************** *We see the Anit-Monitor's remains hooked up to one of the vibrational devices the Monitor used in the first Crisis.

Red cape (that blows up the watchtower) is Earth Prime Superboy...he and Alexander are working together (Martian Manhunter is among a group of heroes--Lady Quark, Breach, the Ray--hooked up to the Monitor's machine, along with dead Anti).


Hmmmm... pinch of salt with this one... But! You never know! :o

[Chip Whitley]

No .... Nightwing?
I hate you. :mad:

[SirChasm]

No .... Nightwing?

That was mean..

And yet very funny also.

[Ian J.N.]

Thank God for spoiler text.

"What? You mean I have to highlight the text to read the spoiler? Screw that, too much work."
Friend, hit Ctrl-A and all is revealed. Why, it's simplicity itself!

Your's truly,
the Devil.

[Dil]

spoiled too :)

[Super Monkey]

does anyone on this actual board have the issue yet?

I don't trust the DC boards too much.

[Adam Crocker]

Now I just read this too over at dccomics...

Sounds a bit suspect to me but...


SPOILER******************************************* ************************************************** *We see the Anit-Monitor's remains hooked up to one of the vibrational devices the Monitor used in the first Crisis.

Red cape (that blows up the watchtower) is Earth Prime Superboy...he and Alexander are working together (Martian Manhunter is among a group of heroes--Lady Quark, Breach, the Ray--hooked up to the Monitor's machine, along with dead Anti).


If it's true then Luthor's machine is probably is an alternate Earth generator or something to bring back the multiverse as some have speculated.

[Mbast1]

does anyone on this actual board have the issue yet?

Yes, I have it. And, I'd say don't read ANY of the spoilers if you don't want to know, all given are true.
And, this might be the end of DC for me. I'm tired of the way things are going, and I don't have the money to waste on things I'm not enjoying.
One prediction, though. Before the end of IC, Superman of Earth-2 is going to die. Heroically, I hope. But, it would have been better to leave him in the paradise dimension, as it was portrayed before being changed just to fit the current story.

[ScottDMSimmons]

Got the issue and just finished reading it.

Again, as someone mentioned, all the spoilers before are accurate.

Extra spoilers:


I enjoyed the reveal of the villains on the last few pages. Also, it was very sweet to see that under the LexCorp armor, green-eyed Lex had the classic Luthor suit (purple with black X). Superboy Prime as a baddie is interesting and unexpected.

Nice to see the Professor back, meeting the new Firestorm. And I am starting to wonder now if Alex masterminded Captain Atom's predicament in the Wildstorm Universe (CA appears near the end in a viewing "ice portion").


--Scott

[PatrickG]

Y'know, when it was first rumored that there would be a Crisis sequel where the bad guy wanted his earth back, I totally called the villain (the one in the cape).

My rationale was that he came from a world that was potentially much darker than we were ever led to believe... and he lost his friends and family. And Geoff Johns specializes in writing angry young men, IMO.

The other half of my prediction was that Kal-L would rally the DCU to stop the villain.

HA!

We'll see...

[Buried Alien]

Now I just read this too over at dccomics...

Sounds a bit suspect to me but...


*************************************We see the Anit-Monitor's remains hooked up to one of the vibrational devices the Monitor used in the first Crisis.


There were remains of the Anti-Monitor after COIE? I thought that Kal-L's last punch disintegrated him but good.



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[ScottDMSimmons]

For those keeping track of the deaths:


Most certainly:
Neptune Perkins

Very likely:
King Shark

Only maybes at this point:
Lori Lemaris
Tempest (Garth)
Arion
..and other Atlantean mystics

[Super Monkey]

For those keeping track of the deaths:


Most certainly:
Neptune Perkins

Very likely:
King Shark

Only maybes at this point:
Lori Lemaris
Tempest (Garth)
Arion
..and other Atlantean mystics


King Shark should be ok since he is on the cover of the Aquaman March 2006 issue, and Lori Lemaris will be in that series

Also, Kal-L is a villian? Say it ain't so :confused:

[PatrickG]

Uh.... Did you read the spoilers? He ain't...

[converge241]

HOLY COW

what a good read

SPOLIER
in the machine looks like Breach, Martian Manhunter, Ray, Black Adam, Lady Quark and some holes for others. Now for the Anti-Monitor remains, yes AM was destroyed in ball of energy form by E2 Supes but his armor may have been discarded during the battle. I am starting to think maybe AM's essence survives on someone ,,maybe E2 supes

how am i going to wait til issue 4??? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[cmndob]

What an issue. I noticed that it credited Perez as a guest artist, I noticed he did the Flash page , did anyone notice anything else?

[Michael P]

King Shark should be ok since he is on the cover of the Aquaman March 2006 issue, and Lori Lemaris will be in that series

Also, Kal-L is a villian? Say it ain't so :confused:
It looks more to me like he's a dupe for the real villains, Alexander Luthor and Earth-Prime Superboy.

[The Wayner]

I might have to get this just for the hints at the new Blue Beetle...

[Cayman]

I knew I was right not to trust Alex Luthor's hair.

Cay

[Paul Newell]

Now that the issues out there's no need for Spoiler tags, guys. :)

[glennsim]

I knew I was right not to trust Alex Luthor's hair.

Cay

What is it with comics characters cutting off their hair lately?! :D

[IamtheRock3]

Glad Batman turn down the offer

Way DC been treating bats..I expecting a Heal turn.

[Sean Walsh]

I was real impressed that they had Batman acknowledge things have just gotten so bad for him lately. Heck, he was practically having a panic attack after that Brother I encounter.

[Zero Hunter]

The big shot of the tower with Ray, Black Adam, Lady Quark, Martian Manhunter, and Breach on it kinda caught me off guard. Most of them I can understand since the represent the differnet realitys that we know of form the first Crisis. What had me curious is Breach being up there. Is it going to turn out his orgins are tied to some other reality that we know of that was wiped out in Crisis or just another random reality.

This issue had so much going on. The destruction of Atlantis and the end of Themascaria at least on Earth. The betrayl of Black Adam by the Society. The answer to the two Luthors question. The reveil of who took out the Martian Manhunter. Our first look at the new Blue Beetle. And finally the true masterminds behind this whole thing.

Things are deffinelty getting better and better with this mini series.

[Radical_dreamer]

The big shot of the tower with Ray, Black Adam, Lady Quark, Martian Manhunter, and Breach on it kinda caught me off guard. Most of them I can understand since the represent the differnet realitys that we know of form the first Crisis. What had me curious is Breach being up there. Is it going to turn out his orgins are tied to some other reality that we know of that was wiped out in Crisis or just another random reality.

This issue had so much going on. The destruction of Atlantis and the end of Themascaria at least on Earth. The betrayl of Black Adam by the Society. The answer to the two Luthors question. The reveil of who took out the Martian Manhunter. Our first look at the new Blue Beetle. And finally the true masterminds behind this whole thing.

Things are deffinelty getting better and better with this mini series.

I know! It rocked my brainon so many levels....the only thing that makes no sense is.....how could redheaded luthor be playing the bad(der) luthor's role on earth (with superboy at his side) while he was trapped in paradise with grey superman?

(I give them colours not numbers)

[smoothjokes]

Great book.


You can add Power Girl to the machine, after they attacked her, now who are the other 2 going to be used for?

The reveal at the end as who the Villians were, shocked me, and it was great. I was expecting it from the Red Head, but I didn't see the other guy coming.

[Sean Walsh]

You can add Power Girl to the machine, after they attacked her, now who are the other 2 going to be used for?

Kal-L is one, for sure.......didn't even notice there was a 3rd one.

Possibly one of the folks on Donna Troy's team? Maybe Donna herself?

[LoneWolf21]

Wasn't Nightshade mentioned somewhere about being needed by the Society?

[Sean Walsh]

Wasn't really surprised at all about the villains, since people have been tossing their names around since the last page of #1.

I was surprise to see skinny Lex's ID revealed....and now Pariah's death makes much more sense.

Oh, and the face on the tower.............that was a CLASSIC COMIC BOOK MOMENT. We all knew he had to get involved somehow, right? :D

[Paul Newell]

The big shot of the tower with Ray, Black Adam, Lady Quark, Martian Manhunter, and Breach on it kinda caught me off guard. Most of them I can understand since the represent the differnet realitys that we know of form the first Crisis. What had me curious is Breach being up there. Is it going to turn out his orgins are tied to some other reality that we know of that was wiped out in Crisis or just another random reality.

Wasn't the original Breach proposal actually going to be a story about Captain Atom?

If you think of him as Captain Atom then you have Earths X, S, 6, 1 & 4 covered. That only leaves a representative of Earth 2 to be gathered. Also, has anyone else realised that, if they need representatives of the Earths involved in the Crisis, that Alex and SB Prime will have to strap themselves in as well? :)

[Paul Newell]

Great book.

You can add Power Girl to the machine, after they attacked her, now who are the other 2 going to be used for?

My guess is Alex and Superboy-Prime....That would mean that every slot is occupied by people from different Earths.

[Super Monkey]

Another Superman may show up before it's all over?

With Superboy Prime pulling a Vader, and the Iron Age Superman losing his powers, and the possible death of E2 Superman..


from Dan DiDio: Crisis Counseling Session 3

Q: Issue #5’s cover was such a tease with the "I'm gonna hit you so hard I'll break the Dimensional Barrier" by E-2 Superman. Seeing it just makes me wonder aside from his in-action what did Kal-el do to warrant the beat downs he's been getting lately? And will the end of Crisis give us a Superman that won't question himself so much?

DD: I think the real question is, “Will the end of Crisis give us a Superman?”

Q: Will Infinite Crisis explain/reconcile the differences between Superman's Man of Steel origin vs. his Birthright origin?

DD: All the inconsistencies in continuity will be touched upon in the Infinite Crisis Scret Files Special.

Q: Is the E-2 Superman still as strong as he used to be, that is, he can move planets?

DD: Not E-2 Superman, but……

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/InfiniteCrisis/Counseling03.htm

[bfrank]

Uh.... Did you read the spoilers? He ain't...

I never mind

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Aquaman/swordofatlantis.htm

[noh-varr]

I don't know what I think about the issue honestly. Superboy being on Alex Luthor's side didn't suprise me. Really nothing in this shocked me it was all just a meh for some odd reason. Batman refusing Kal-L's offer I thought was good, though the fact he was breaking down in the first place bothers the hell out of me. The most calm, collected and planning guy in the universe makes this many mistakes? Doesn't fit for me and I think that is one of the biggest problems for me. Anywhere else Batman knows whats going on long before the big reveal and is always several steps ahead, but now he's just this pompous ass who is messing up all the friggin time.
It really feels like loads of more buildup to me, and I thought that was the point of the miniseries leading up to this. Even the "big reveals" of Alex Luthor being the other Lex, and him and Superboy Prime being the villians didn't do anything for me just felt like more buildup. I'm waiting for something that makes me go wow that's cool and unexpected!

[Kid Kamikaze10]

All I'm going to say about the villains is this.

Alexander Luthor is FINALLY acting Luthor-ish! :D

That's great to see!


But besides that, great issue. The plot is advancing again, which is great. Issue 4 is gonna be crazy.



P.S: They finally show the emotional stress Batman is going through! Out of the whole Trinity, it could be argued that Bruce (and Gotham as a whole) is getting it the worst in IC.

[BoSoxJay]

I really liked how Bruce tested Kal-L by asking if Dick was a better man on Earth-2. It's so rare, and refreshing I might add, when Bruce says something about Dick that a father would ask about a son. The fact that Batman told Kal-L to go screw basically because he thought of his 'son' first (at least the way I read it) was fantastic. As a Dad myself it made me mark out for Batman more than I already do anyway.

[Rollo_Tomasi]

P.S: They finally show the emotional stress Batman is going through! Out of the whole Trinity, it could be argued that Bruce (and Gotham as a whole) is getting it the worst in IC.

I don't know man. Wonder Woman is the last freaking Amazon on Earth. Paradise Island is no more. She may NEVER see her fellow Amazonians again! Plus, the citizens of Earth think she is a cold blooded killer! Don't you think she might be getting it pretty bad too?

[Sabrinaset]

I liked the emotional breakdown Batman went through in the book, but one thing that confused me is Kal-L's answer about the other Dick Grayson. Seems to me the better answer would be that they were both the same. Honestly, the old one was a pretty accomplished person himself with few, if any, character flaws that I could see. Served in the JSA...why isn't he as good as the current Dick Grayson?

[Rollo_Tomasi]

I really liked how Bruce tested Kal-L by asking if Dick was a better man on Earth-2. It's so rare, and refreshing I might add, when Bruce says something about Dick that a father would ask about a son. The fact that Batman told Kal-L to go screw basically because he thought of his 'son' first (at least the way I read it) was fantastic. As a Dad myself it made me mark out for Batman more than I already do anyway.

I'm confused about this. Wasn't Dick Grayson a good guy on Earth 2?

[Rollo_Tomasi]

One more thing. I guess we found out who that silhouette was that was standing behind Society Lex in IC #2...Superboy Prime!

[LordEd1976]

I know! It rocked my brainon so many levels....the only thing that makes no sense is.....how could redheaded luthor be playing the bad(der) luthor's role on earth (with superboy at his side) while he was trapped in paradise with grey superman?

(I give them colours not numbers)
It maybe possible that Alex Luthor lied when he told E2 Supes that escape was impossible. It maybe that Alex found a way to escape and simply egged E2 Supes into shattering the barrier as a way to get him enraged and easier to control.

[Sean Walsh]

Wasn't the original Breach proposal actually going to be a story about Captain Atom?

Yes, it was.

The reason for it changing, back when the series was announced, was "they didn't think a Captain Atom series would sell well". But really, I assume they knew what their plans were for Captain Atom, so they changed Harras' proposal to be a new guy - a similar guy - to fill the role while Atom was over in the WildStorm Universe doing.......whatever he's doing...

[Sean Walsh]

BTW, did anyone giggle when they saw Lex (OUR Lex, woohoo!) wearing his pre-Crisis clothing underneath the pre-Crisis armor...? :)

[NimbusV]

I am a little confused here:

Spoiler:
When Luthor asks Alex Who are you? and he replies I told you. I'm you, only better wouldn't this be inacurate since he is not Earth 3 Lex Luthor, but his son?
End of Spoiler:

Cheers

[David O Burcham]

No way are Alex and Superboy Prime the ultimate bad guys. There is someone else pushing them on. Someone who realizes that neither one of them had a real chance to grow up. Someone who can play the Spectre and create intergalactic war.


The Anti-Monitor machine is the "mind-wiping weapon" that Alex had the Society believe he was building. If you recall, Firestorm was kidnapped with the intent that he would power the device. He escaped. I am sure Breach is there as the new power source, not an alternate Captain Atom Earth-4 representative. Nightshade is the Earth-4 target.

[Toonimator]

Don't forget 'our' Lex once passed himself off as his own son...

...so what Alex said is true, from a certain point of view :)

Or perhaps he meant he's the ideal Luthor, acting for the greater good, etc.

So... what's the plan? Alex & SB Prime seem to want the entire multiverse back. Is that it? While Kal-L simply wants Earth-2 to replace the current Earth? Maybe Alex & SBP don't like that because it'd still leave them homeless?

Anyway, fun issue. Great reveals.

[aeastwic]

No way are Alex and Superboy Prime the ultimate bad guys. There is someone else pushing them on. Someone who realizes that neither one of them had a real chance to grow up. Someone who can play the Spectre and create intergalactic war.


The Anti-Monitor machine is the "mind-wiping weapon" that Alex had the Society believe he was building. If you recall, Firestorm was kidnapped with the intent that he would power the device. He escaped. I am sure Breach is there as the new power source, not an alternate Captain Atom Earth-4 representative. Nightshade is the Earth-4 target.

It has to be more than chance that the people powering that machine represent the different Earths. What if it is a machine to resurrect the Anti-Monitor? I think the Society was duped.

[Buried Alien]

I'm confused about this. Wasn't Dick Grayson a good guy on Earth 2?

Yes...a hero through and through to the bitter end. On the other hand, Post-COIE Dick Grayson seems to have had some issues of moral ambiguity lately in his own title.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[aeastwic]

So we have an explination for how "Villians United" ties directly into IC. The villians were putting that machine together and put together a power source. Secondly, there were keeping the heroes of Earth-1 busy.

So how about the other mini-series?

I think that the RANN mini will be explained later, based on the covers. How does this tie into Day of Vengeance and OMAC?

Were Luthor and Superboy behind Brother EYE/Max Lord and corrupting the SPECTRE?

This is good stuff!

[David O Burcham]

I take it back. Alexander Luthor is capable of manipulating Spectre and several alien races.

Through Psycho Pirate.

The motivations of Kal-L, the villians of the Society, the Spectre, the Thanagarians and Rannians, Max Lord, the disolution of the JLA, Powergirl... they are all emotion based.

Alexander Luthor, aware that Psycho Pirate remembered the Multiverse, has expanded his powers and is using him to set all of these events in motion.

[Rollo_Tomasi]

I take it back. Alexander Luthor is capable of manipulating Spectre and several alien races.

Through Psycho Pirate.

The motivations of Kal-L, the villians of the Society, the Spectre, the Thanagarians and Rannians, Max Lord, the disolution of the JLA, Powergirl... they are all emotion based.

Alexander Luthor, aware that Psycho Pirate remembered the Multiverse, has expanded his powers and is using him to set all of these events in motion.

holy crap!

dude I can't wait for Joker to throw a monkey wrench into Alex Luthor's plans!

[Buried Alien]

Do each of the figures tied to the tuning fork represent each of the universes that had survivors Post-COIE? It seems that way.

Earth 1 - Martian Manhunter

Earth S - Black Adam

Earth X - The Ray

Earth 6 - Lady Quark

Earth 4 - that unidentified character to the left (don't know who he is)

antimatter universe - the Anti-Monitor

Earth-2, Earth-3, and Earth-Prime are unrepresented on the tower, however, unless Kal-L (or more likely, Power Girl), Alexander Luthor, and Superboy Prime get strapped to the machine as well.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Buried Alien]

holy crap!

dude I can't wait for Joker to throw a monkey wrench into Alex Luthor's plans!

Wouldn't it be the ultimate irony if the Joker saved the universe? :)


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Paul Newell]

Do each of the figures tied to the tuning fork represent each of the universes that had survivors Post-COIE? It seems that way.

Earth 1 - Martian Manhunter

Earth S - Black Adam

Earth X - The Ray

Earth 6 - Lady Quark

Earth 4 - that unidentified character to the left (don't know who he is)

antimatter universe - the Anti-Monitor

Earth-2, Earth-3, and Earth-Prime are unrepresented on the tower, however, unless Kal-L (or more likely, Power Girl), Alexander Luthor, and Superboy Prime get strapped to the machine as well.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
We were discussing it further up in the thread. That's Breach, who had his own series recently. He's a new character, but the story was originally a Captain Atom pitch and the character is very similar.

[Buried Alien]

This might be hopelessly trivial, but why is Post-COIE Luthor wearing Pre-COIE Earth-1 Luthor's old laundry all of a sudden?


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Adam Crocker]

This might be hopelessly trivial, but why is Post-COIE Luthor wearing Pre-COIE Earth-1 Luthor's old laundry all of a sudden?

The battle suit or the purple pajamas with green belts?

Either way: nostalagia. Same reason one Superman writer (I forget which one) tried to retcon Post-COIE Krypton back to the thirties sci-fi serial look awhile back.

[Sean Walsh]

The battle suit or the purple pajamas with green belts?

Either way: nostalagia. Same reason one Superman writer (I forget which one) tried to retcon Post-COIE Krypton back to the thirties sci-fi serial look awhile back.

That was Return to Krypton, right? That was mainly a Jeph Loeb/Joe Kelly thing at first.....with the sequel getting Geoff Johns added into the mix as well...

[Buried Alien]

The battle suit or the purple pajamas with green belts?

Either way: nostalagia. Same reason one Superman writer (I forget which one) tried to retcon Post-COIE Krypton back to the thirties sci-fi serial look awhile back.

The pajamas.

The real-world reason, of course, is nostalgia, but DC continuity being what it is (especially in *this* particular story), it might have additional plot significance.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[xrcst]

Its been 10 plus years since I read COIE, so it may have been layed out this way also. But the story is so chopped up, which is bad for me cause it feels like Im only getting tidbits of the story (so I guess i need to buy the crossovers) but good in that just about every otehr page is an "OH CRAP" moment.

[xnef1025]

The pajamas.

The real-world reason, of course, is nostalgia, but DC continuity being what it is (especially in *this* particular story), it might have additional plot significance.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
I'd assume that most of the nods to pre-COIE could be attributed to the breaking down of all barriers that's been mentioned in some of the tie-ins. Echoes of the other Earths, crossing time and dimensions, subtlely influencing people and events. Side-effects of whatever Alex and SB-P have been doing.

I haven't had a chance to pick this up yet. Did anything happen with E2 Lois this issue? Alex and Superboy are too obvious to be the final answer, there's gotta be more to Lois than meets the eye.

[Buried Alien]

Another Superman may show up before it's all over?

With Superboy Prime pulling a Vader, and the Iron Age Superman losing his powers, and the possible death of E2 Superman..


from Dan DiDio: Crisis Counseling Session 3

Q: Issue #5’s cover was such a tease with the "I'm gonna hit you so hard I'll break the Dimensional Barrier" by E-2 Superman. Seeing it just makes me wonder aside from his in-action what did Kal-el do to warrant the beat downs he's been getting lately? And will the end of Crisis give us a Superman that won't question himself so much?

DD: I think the real question is, “Will the end of Crisis give us a Superman?”

Q: Will Infinite Crisis explain/reconcile the differences between Superman's Man of Steel origin vs. his Birthright origin?

DD: All the inconsistencies in continuity will be touched upon in the Infinite Crisis Scret Files Special.

Q: Is the E-2 Superman still as strong as he used to be, that is, he can move planets?

DD: Not E-2 Superman, but……

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/InfiniteCrisis/Counseling03.htm

Dan Didio is a master of disinformation...and I say that in an admiring way. :)



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[jeffb1982]

[QUOTE=Buried Alien]Dan Didio is a master of disinformation...and I say that in an admiring way. :)

at least he admits he tells lies about future events

[Buried Alien]

In addition to the strangeness of Alex and Superboy Prime being able to dig up the Anti-Monitor's corpse from goodness knows where, how the heck did they get their hands on one of the Monitor's vibrational forks? You can't just pick up one of those things at the nearest local Best Buy or Radio Shack, you know?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Adam Crocker]

The pajamas.

The real-world reason, of course, is nostalgia, but DC continuity being what it is (especially in *this* particular story), it might have additional plot significance.


I'd assume that most of the nods to pre-COIE could be attributed to the breaking down of all barriers that's been mentioned in some of the tie-ins. Echoes of the other Earths, crossing time and dimensions, subtlely influencing people and events. Side-effects of whatever Alex and SB-P have been doing..

Now that you mention it...didn't Luthor ask himself in issue #2 why he was wearing this armour, as though he realized it was strange of him to be doing this?

You can't just pick up one of those things at the nearest local Best Buy or Radio Shack, you know?

I'm pretty sure I saw a Cosmic Cube at Radio Shack recently, but I didn't get it because I had Christmas shopping to finish!

[aeastwic]

In addition to the strangeness of Alex and Superboy Prime being able to dig up the Anti-Monitor's corpse from goodness knows where, how the heck did they get their hands on one of the Monitor's vibrational forks? You can't just pick up one of those things at the nearest local Best Buy or Radio Shack, you know?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I'm guessing that Alexander spent his time in Paradise figuring it out, there shouldn't be anything too weird in it. What's weird is what the heck is the Anti-monitor's shell doing in the middle of it? Shouldn't that be destroyed?

Also, Alex and Superboy-P refer to our Lex as evil...which means that they think they are the good guys. Are they up to no good, or are they thinking that they are doing something noble?

[aeastwic]

This might be hopelessly trivial, but why is Post-COIE Luthor wearing Pre-COIE Earth-1 Luthor's old laundry all of a sudden?


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

They've done this for a long time. Anything wiped out by the original Crisis is fair game to be re-introduced. Supergirl is the ultimate expression of that. For us, as readers, we've seen this all before, but the people in the now single Earth haven't seen her yet.

So it's perfectly possible that things repeat themselves, since people should be somewhat the same in different universes.

[aeastwic]

Now that you mention it...didn't Luthor ask himself in issue #2 why he was wearing this armour, as though he realized it was strange of him to be doing this?



I'm pretty sure I saw a Cosmic Cube at Radio Shack recently, but I didn't get it because I had Christmas shopping to finish!

I picked one of those up, but it didn't hold as many songs as my iPod. D'oh!

[multiplexo]

In addition to the strangeness of Alex and Superboy Prime being able to dig up the Anti-Monitor's corpse from goodness knows where, how the heck did they get their hands on one of the Monitor's vibrational forks? You can't just pick up one of those things at the nearest local Best Buy or Radio Shack, you know?

Nah, you have to go to Fry's to get one of those. :D

[Steve Brady]

Although it may be so that Breach is the replacement for Firestorm in terms of powering (although I thought Firestorm was just powering that facility in South America), he also represents a character from the current mish-mashed Earth, who didn't exist on any of the multi-verse Earths.

Also, I wonder if there is a reason for choosing particular characters. Alex Luthor seemed content with any member of the Marvel familly, including Black Adam, but he could have had any of the Freedom Fighters. Why Ray? Why J'onn? Why Nightshade?

Did Pariah's Earth ever have a name? Guess it's not getting represented...

[Paul Newell]

Although it may be so that Breach is the replacement for Firestorm in terms of powering (although I thought Firestorm was just powering that facility in South America), he also represents a character from the current mish-mashed Earth, who didn't exist on any of the multi-verse Earths.

Also, I wonder if there is a reason for choosing particular characters. Alex Luthor seemed content with any member of the Marvel familly, including Black Adam, but he could have had any of the Freedom Fighters. Why Ray? Why J'onn? Why Nightshade?

Did Pariah's Earth ever have a name? Guess it's not getting represented...
They're all very powerful characters in their own right. So any of the Marvel Family would have done.
Nightshade may not seem to be that powerful, but without Captain Atom currently in the DCU she is the only one, with powers, of the Charlton heroes available. I didn't read Breach, but I'm getting a feeling that the character will be revealed to either be tied to Captain Atom or the Captain himself.

[LordEd1976]

I'm pretty sure I saw a Cosmic Cube at Radio Shack recently, but I didn't get it because I had Christmas shopping to finish!

I picked the Infinity Gauntlet at my radio Shack. cheap price too.

Uh-oh.....

excuse me. I just made the entire state of Wisconsin blink out of existence and rewrote history so Tom Cruise became the ruler of France.

I'll be right back as soon as reality has been fixed.

[Buried Alien]

I picked the Infinity Gauntlet at my radio Shack. cheap price too.

Uh-oh.....

excuse me. I just made the entire state of Wisconsin blink out of existence and rewrote history so Tom Cruise became the ruler of France.

I'll be right back as soon as reality has been fixed.

My friend, I'm afraid you've been sold defective merchandise. :D

Here's hoping Alex and Superboy Prime have an extended warranty on that vibrational fork.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Buried Alien]

Another unusual thing to consider:

I find it very strange how Batman seems to *trust* Kal-L. Although Batman doesn't agree with Kal-L's goal, he does seem to believe that Kal-L is legitimately Superman (although not the Superman that Batman normally associates with). Batman doesn't treat Kal-L as if the latter were an imposter (Batman's seen plenty of those) or trick; he seems to accept Kal-L as Superman. This is very unusual for the normally suspicious-to-paranoid Batman.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[x1243]

I'm guessing that Alexander spent his time in Paradise figuring it out, there shouldn't be anything too weird in it. What's weird is what the heck is the Anti-monitor's shell doing in the middle of it? Shouldn't that be destroyed?

Also, Alex and Superboy-P refer to our Lex as evil...which means that they think they are the good guys. Are they up to no good, or are they thinking that they are doing something noble?
Hi all.. been following this thread for a while and I've decided to post. I was just thinking back to the original crisis. The Monitor never wanted to destroy the multiverse. In fact, he wanted to preserve the multiverse. The new aka Post Crisis Earth was created as a result of well .. a lot of things that went down during that saga. So in the same way, maybe Superboy Prime and Alex Luthor aren't evil. They merely want things to go back to the way they were before. Which is having all the multiverse. However this does leave one nagging thread which is why did Alex Luthor kill Pariah then?

[Sabrinaset]

Another unusual thing to consider:

I find it very strange how Batman seems to *trust* Kal-L. Although Batman doesn't agree with Kal-L's goal, he does seem to believe that Kal-L is legitimately Superman (although not the Superman that Batman normally associates with). Batman doesn't treat Kal-L as if the latter were an imposter (Batman's seen plenty of those) or trick; he seems to accept Kal-L as Superman. This is very unusual for the normally suspicious-to-paranoid Batman.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

That occurred to me too. I figured Bats acted that way because he was on the edge of a nervous breakdown, and seeing Kal-L throwing him an emotional life preserver at that very rare and vulnerable moment caused him to react in that non-paranoid way.





Or maybe Bruce is into older guys for a change.

[superlurker]

Another unusual thing to consider:

I find it very strange how Batman seems to *trust* Kal-L. Although Batman doesn't agree with Kal-L's goal, he does seem to believe that Kal-L is legitimately Superman (although not the Superman that Batman normally associates with). Batman doesn't treat Kal-L as if the latter were an imposter (Batman's seen plenty of those) or trick; he seems to accept Kal-L as Superman. This is very unusual for the normally suspicious-to-paranoid Batman.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Maybe he saw in Kal-L what he badly wants to see in Kal-El.

Their confrontation in IC #1 set up that Batman thinks the current Superman is underperforming -- not doing his job properly. I think his breakdown in IC #3 must be seen in that perspective. The world has gone to heck, and he knows it. He also very likely realizes that he isn't the man to fix it. Stuff like that, that's a job for Superman. Only Batman thinks Superman hasn't been doing his job. This guy though, he wants to take action -- Batman just realized it's not the course of action he wants to see taken.

Batman is in a predicament he can't see the way out of -- he doesn't know what to do. In that position, he seems willing to accept help from above. And Superman is essentially a savior figure -- that's what Batman wants him to be, too. Batman is basically pissed with Superman for not doing what Batman himself can't.

The flashbacks also alluded to the traumas Batman has gone through in his life. On some level, he's still a bit of a traumatized child. Kal-L definitely arrived at a vulnerable moment, and he would appear as somewhat of a father figure as well.

[Sean Walsh]

Although it may be so that Breach is the replacement for Firestorm in terms of powering (although I thought Firestorm was just powering that facility in South America), he also represents a character from the current mish-mashed Earth, who didn't exist on any of the multi-verse Earths.

Speaking of Firestorm...........did I see the Martin Stein Firestorm show up in this issue?!

[hitokiri_]

Speaking of Firestorm...........did I see the Martin Stein Firestorm show up in this issue?!


yeah, that guy, who is that? he looks like flamebird or something.

[JolietJake]

I was re-reading the issue this a.m. and something struck me. Doesn't that spikey-ball, machine following Alex Luthor around bear a little bit more than a passing resemblence to Solaris, the villian of DC 1 Million? Anyone else notice this?

[mdg1]

Let's take a closer look at the Fork

We have J'onn Jonz, possibly the first major silver age character without a Golden Age counterpart. He could qualify as "Earth-1"

We have the Ray. While his body may be from post-Crisis, the light entity that powers him spent a lot of time on Earth-X.

Then, Lady Quark, sole survivor of Earth-6. And Black Adam, from Earth-S.

Finally, we have Breach..a living dimensional rift. The power source.

And there are three slots left. One is for Nightshade, from Earth-4. Another is probably for Kara (who comes from Earth-2).

But there's only one slot left. And TWO Earths unaccounted for. How much you want to bet that Alex plans on betraying Superboy Prime, and strapping him into the machine too?

And then he turns it on... and brings back Earth-3.

[Logansmiddleclaw]

Couple of random thoughts.....some are questioning how Alex and SBP could have "escaped heaven" to plot the current events etc. My thinking is pretty simplistic--Alex Luthor "created" this "heaven", therefore it only stands to reason that he has the power to escape it for a period (or periods) of time.

As for why there are anti-monitor remains, Anti-Monitor went all energy in COIE 12 (?) Those remains are from his exoskeleton/body armor/body before he shed it and revealed an all-energy form.

I'm geeked about this series...I even dug out that old DC Presents with SBP's first appearance....ah nostalgia :o

[20yrslater]

Yes...a hero through and through to the bitter end. On the other hand, Post-COIE Dick Grayson seems to have had some issues of moral ambiguity lately in his own title.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Kal-L told Batman he doesn't lie, and seems to say that pretty emphatically. So when asked if the E-2 Dick was better than the current Dick, he had to answer truthfully, "no". It doesn't mean that E-2 was lesser, or a bad guy, just that he wasn't a better man than Nightwing.

[thehod]

Could Alexander Luthor possibly be the Anti-Monitor, in the same manner that Jericho eventually was taken over by Trigon in the Titans Hunt arc?

Just a random thought, seeing as Alex's motives seemed to have radically changed between Crisis and the present.

[20yrslater]

Although it may be so that Breach is the replacement for Firestorm in terms of powering (although I thought Firestorm was just powering that facility in South America), he also represents a character from the current mish-mashed Earth, who didn't exist on any of the multi-verse Earths.

Also, I wonder if there is a reason for choosing particular characters. Alex Luthor seemed content with any member of the Marvel familly, including Black Adam, but he could have had any of the Freedom Fighters. Why Ray? Why J'onn? Why Nightshade?

Did Pariah's Earth ever have a name? Guess it's not getting represented...

I think that not only does it have to do with what Earth each hero is from, but something unique about their abilities, too.

Breach: pwoer source, cosmic/dimensional rifter
J'onn: telepathy? Alien? Arguably the most powerful hero on E-1, but also the most true to heroic ideals?
Adam: Magic
Quark: I don't really know what she does
PG: The Kyrpton link

Am I missing someone?

[Sean Dulaney]

My friend, I'm afraid you've been sold defective merchandise. :D

Here's hoping Alex and Superboy Prime have an extended warranty on that vibrational fork.



I'm guessing the reason they did not begin acting until recently is because it was only a couple of years ago Radio Shack stopped asking for your zip code.

After all, once those circulars start showing up in "paradise" Kal-L might start to ask questions.

[Shellhead]

Wouldn't it be the ultimate irony if the Joker saved the universe? :)


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

After this Crisis, Psycho Pirate will probably be dead, and Joker will be the new crazy guy who remembers the way things used to be.

[moonlight_night78]

My theory is that Alex Luthor is not just picking these particular people at random. I think that there's more to these particular choices then just them being representives of thier former earths. I think he's using people from the Anti-Monitor strike force from COIE #7.

The strike force from COIE #7:

Mon-El, Jade, Captain Atom, Lady Quark, Green Lantern of Eath-2, Doctor Light II, Martian Manhunter, Superman of Earth-1, Wildfire, Superman of Earth-2, Supergirl, Wonder Woman II, Ray, Captain Marvel, Pariah, Firestorm, Alex Luthor.

Now, these versions of Mon-El and Wildfire don't exist anymore, Pariah is dead, Jade, Green Lantern, Supergirl and Firestorm are part of Donna Troy's strike force and Dr. Light II is powerless.

Firestorm (even though he's not the same character) was suppose to power the machine.

So, you have Lady Quark, Martian Manhunter, and the Ray, plus Breach (standing in for Capt. Atom) and Black Adam (standing in for Capt. Marvel)already in the machine w/ what's left of the Anti-Monitor and Alex Luthor pulling the strings. Nightshade makes sense b/c she was Capt. Atom's former partner and the only character currently left from Earth-4.

I'm expecting either Earth-2 Superman to get knocked out and strapped or Power Girl (standing in for Supergirl) to be in the machine.

It also in a way explains why Superman and Wonder Woman are being manipulated

Hopes this kinda makes sense to everybody

[DDM]

yeah, that guy, who is that? he looks like flamebird or something.

The Martin Stein Firestorm is a fire elemental. He possesses all the powers of cosmic fire. He appeared as a fire elemental in Firestorm (second series) near the end of the book. Ronnie Raymond retained the powers of Firestorm as originally conceived by Gerry Conway.

[DDM]

I think that not only does it have to do with what Earth each hero is from, but something unique about their abilities, too.

Breach: pwoer source, cosmic/dimensional rifter
J'onn: telepathy? Alien? Arguably the most powerful hero on E-1, but also the most true to heroic ideals?
Adam: Magic
Quark: I don't really know what she does
PG: The Kyrpton link

Am I missing someone?

Lady Quark has the powers of a nuclear reactor.

[DDM]

Alexander Luthor & the Earth Prime Superboy are the villains of the piece. However, are they also the reasons for the DC Universe to be corrupt? It's possible. They will pay any price to bring back Earth-2. Does this mean the Anti-Monitor will be reborn? I doubt it.

Someone else could always peel back the layers of time to possibly bring back the Multiverse. But Alexander Luthor & Superboy are not going this route.

I loved Batman's confrontation with the Earth-2 Superman. He remained true to himself as his world collapses around him with Brother Eye turning into a villain.

Wonder Woman leaves Paradise Island for a final time to save it from the OMACs.

The Martin Stein Firestorm makes an appearance (last seen in War of the Gods).

Good stuff

10/10

[rexpop]

The Martin Stein Firestorm makes an appearance (last seen in War of the Gods).

Actually I think it was 'Extreme Justice' where the Martin Stein Firestorm was last seen, the two parter where Ronnie Raymond is dying of some kind of cancer and can't control his Firestorm powers.

[Adam Crocker]

Alexander Luthor & the Earth Prime Superboy are the villains of the piece. However, are they also the reasons for the DC Universe to be corrupt? It's possible. They will pay any price to bring back Earth-2.

Someone else could always peel back the layers of time to possibly bring back the Multiverse. But Alexander Luthor & Superboy are not going this route.

I think that's taking what Alexander said to Earth-2 Superman in issue one at face value though. Alex only told Kal-L that they could bring back Earth-2 and got him to break out of the pocket universe they were sealed in, when he's been running the Society under the guise of Lex Luthor long before then. And Superboy Prime clearly was leaving there as he attacked the Watchtower and captured Martian Manhunter before then. Clearly he didn't need E-2 Superman to get out of there, yet he had break through barrier anyways. He's been telling the Society that's he building a mindwiping device for the heroes when that's clearly not his goal.

They've engaged in kidnapping to power their machine. How do we know they aren't likely lying to Kal-L about just bringing back Earth 2? Having lost their Earths in Crisis, a possible motive for doing so seems to exist. Only question is why.

Does this mean the Anti-Monitor will be reborn? I doubt it.

All depends I suppose. The solicitations for issue #5 did say that a villain will be reborn.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

Look closer! It's R2-D2!

Mark my words, that little astromech is the key to everything! Remember you heard it here first ;)

[Buried Alien]

Does this mean the Anti-Monitor will be reborn? I doubt it.

There were wires extending from the Anti-Monitor's corpse. That probably means that either the Anti-Monitor's corpse is going to be the power source for something or that the Anti-Monitor is going to be reanimated by some other power source.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Zero Hunter]

Breech is the one that has me the most curious. I don't think he has anything to do with Captain Atom since he is currently over kicking around in the Wildstorm U. Breech does have ties with some sort of othe dimmensional force as shown in his series and by the foes he fought that came over from other dimensions.
My thinking is they would not have used such a minor character in something this big unless there was some bigger role for him down the road.

With Captain Atom gone Nightshade would be the next most powerful Charlton hero left in the DCU right now, and by the looks of it Alex needs strong characters for whatever it is he is planning otherwise he could have just scooped up Question, Sivana, Wildcat, or any of the other weaker characters form the old multiverse dimmensions.

[Super-Skrull]

Look closer! It's R2-D2!

Mark my words, that little astromech is the key to everything! Remember you heard it here first ;)

What Earth does he represent???

[Steve Brady]

Kal-L told Batman he doesn't lie, and seems to say that pretty emphatically. So when asked if the E-2 Dick was better than the current Dick, he had to answer truthfully, "no". It doesn't mean that E-2 was lesser, or a bad guy, just that he wasn't a better man than Nightwing.

My original interpretation of this Dick Grayson scene was that Kal-L had filled Batman in on Earth-2 and the multiverse, like did with Power Girl, and that Batman assumes that if Earth-2 became the foundation for the primary Earth, that Dick would be dead, since he died during the Crisis (in the same way Barry Allen is dead because he died during the Crisis, no matter how the characters currently remember it).

But re-reading it, maybe I'm wrong.

Would Batman be dead? I really don't get Kal-L's plan, or how he thinks it'll work.

Not that it matters, since he's being duped.

[Chris Thomas]

can't.. read.. entire.. thread... eight.. pages.. already.. so excuse me if I duplicate any comments. also, I am assuming spoilers are rampant.

1. clearly alex and boyprime are NOT just trying to bring back earth 2. why would they want to do that? alex is evil I tell you.. evil!. maybe either his prior connection to darkseid or his living away from his own universe have made him a villian. not sure why boyprime feels that way. maybe he is just crazy? or maybe alex is just a damn good manipulator.

I think alex is trying to take it all back to before the anti-monitor. or just destroy everything?

2. supes earth 2 thinks this is all about saving lois earth 2 by bringing back earth 2. hm. clearly alex is using this to manipulate him.

3. animal man is god.

4. they are collecting people who don't belong to earth 1. pg, mm (i mean he's from mars!), quark, black adam, not sure about breach-perhaps just because his book is not as good as it should be? j/k. I bet he sticks boyprime and golden supes in there. I also suspect they will put the fisherman in there because he has the worst costume ever.

[marshal99]

The Martin Stein Firestorm makes an appearance (last seen in War of the Gods).


Nope , last seen in the green lantern : Circle of fire mini series. :)

[Steve Brady]

Let's take a closer look at the Fork

We have J'onn Jonz, possibly the first major silver age character without a Golden Age counterpart. He could qualify as "Earth-1"

We have the Ray. While his body may be from post-Crisis, the light entity that powers him spent a lot of time on Earth-X.

Then, Lady Quark, sole survivor of Earth-6. And Black Adam, from Earth-S.

Finally, we have Breach..a living dimensional rift. The power source.

And there are three slots left. One is for Nightshade, from Earth-4. Another is probably for Kara (who comes from Earth-2).

But there's only one slot left. And TWO Earths unaccounted for. How much you want to bet that Alex plans on betraying Superboy Prime, and strapping him into the machine too?

And then he turns it on... and brings back Earth-3.

Yeah, you're right, Breach is taking up a slot.

This is helpful:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse_%28DC_Comics%29

If we assume they need Earths 1-4, 6, S, X, and Prime (no Earth-C? Where's Captain Carrot?) , that's eight slots. Breach isn't from any of those.

I'm sure we'll get it explained. From an external standpoint, all you'd really need are Earth 1, 2, 4, S, and X, right? Earth-3 is redundant because of the anti-matter universe, and who cares about 6 and Prime?

My head hurts.

[Calamas]

Kal-L told Batman he doesn't lie, and seems to say that pretty emphatically. So when asked if the E-2 Dick was better than the current Dick, he had to answer truthfully, "no". It doesn't mean that E-2 was lesser, or a bad guy, just that he wasn't a better man than Nightwing.
Actually, I was under the impression that the Earth-2 Robin had died sometime after being blinked out of existence. I know that makes no sense, and I can’t tell you how or where I got that idea, but as I read IC I had no doubt that that was why E-2 Superman answered with a reluctant but definitive no. Of course I could be wrong.

And remember that we don’t have all the players on the board yet. There’s still that anomaly in the Rann/Thanagar quadrant, which may or may not be the force Donna Troy is sensing. As Didio teased, the stage is set for a lot more "Holy Crap" moments.

[Sabrinaset]

All depends I suppose. The solicitations for issue #5 did say that a villain will be reborn.

The Return of....KITE-MAN!!!

Clayface II?


...the Bug-Eyed Bandit?


By the way, DJ, I think this is the first time I've seen you somewhere else besides the Community Forum! Yay you! :)

[Ian J.N.]

Actually, I was under the impression that the Earth-2 Robin had died sometime after being blinked out of existence. I know that makes no sense, and I can’t tell you how or where I got that idea, but as I read IC I had no doubt that that was why E-2 Superman answered with a reluctant but definitive no. Of course I could be wrong.
He died during Crisis on Infinite Earths, did he not? I think that's what Kal-L is referring to. If Earth-2 returns, Dick would be dead, a la Barry Allen.

[caboose]

Correct me if I'm wrong but was Alexander Luthor's birth affected by the Anti-Monitor's Anti-Matter surge and subsequently the source of Alex's powers?

If so, it seems likely that Alex is corrupted by the Anti-Matter and thus over time has grown partly evil.

And also, what has happened to Earth's Luthor after Superboy 'erased' him?

[DDM]

He died during Crisis on Infinite Earths, did he not? I think that's what Kal-L is referring to. If Earth-2 returns, Dick would be dead, a la Barry Allen.

The Earth-2 Robin died with the Huntress as they were overwhelmed by shadow demons. Kole tried to save Huntress when a building fell on her, but all three heroes were killed by the shadow demons in Crisis On Infinite Earths #12.

[DDM]

And also, what has happened to Earth's Luthor after Superboy 'erased' him?

Luthor was teleported away before Alexander Luthor could erase him from existence.

[caboose]

Sorry, I meant it more as a point of discussion about who teleported Luthor away and why?

[bfrank]

And also, what has happened to Earth's Luthor after Superboy 'erased' him?
Super boy didn't erase him...go back re-read....

[DDM]

Correct me if I'm wrong but was Alexander Luthor's birth affected by the Anti-Monitor's Anti-Matter surge and subsequently the source of Alex's powers?

If so, it seems likely that Alex is corrupted by the Anti-Matter and thus over time has grown partly evil.



Alexander Luthor was changed when he traveled from Earth-3 to Earth-1; he became a being of both positive matter & anti-matter. He knew how the multiverse would be rewritten into one single universe. It's why he chose to save the Earth-2 Lois Lane for Superman when they went into Paradise.

Alexander Luthor has no connection to the Anti-Monitor.

[rexpop]

Correct me if I'm wrong but was Alexander Luthor's birth affected by the Anti-Monitor's Anti-Matter surge and subsequently the source of Alex's powers?

If so, it seems likely that Alex is corrupted by the Anti-Matter and thus over time has grown partly evil.

I would expand on this by saying that its more likely that he was somehow corrupted during final battle of the first Crisis and somehow has part of the essence of the Anti-Monitor within him, which over time has taken him over. So he's playing Superboy Prime and Kal-L as dupes and the machine seen at the end of #3 will really bring the Anti-Monitor back instead of Earth 2.

I suspect that how all this happened will be revealed in that Infinite Crisis Secret Files that Marv Wolfman has coming out in February.

[Buried Alien]

Also recall that in COIE # 12, Darkseid briefly hijacked Alex Luthor as a conduit through which to attack the Anti-Monitor. Hmmmm. Might Darkseid have a role in this?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Jeff O.]

Alex only told Kal-L that they could bring back Earth-2 and got him to break out of the pocket universe they were sealed in, when he's been running the Society under the guise of Lex Luthor long before then. And Superboy Prime clearly was leaving there as he attacked the Watchtower and captured Martian Manhunter before then. Clearly he didn't need E-2 Superman to get out of there, yet he had break through barrier anyways.

I wonder if Alexander had Kal-L punch through the barrier so that he could harness the massive amount of power Kal-L exerted.

[Azrael52]

Well, heck yeah, that's who teleported Luthor away. Plus, Luthor was looking for Darkseid in Supergirl #4.

[Jeff O.]

(no Earth-C? Where's Captain Carrot?)

Given the events of TEEN TITANS No. 30,

[speculative spoiler]



I guess there's a slight chance Little Cheese will become the new Spectre. Hey, ya never know. ;)

[Rollo_Tomasi]

Sorry, I meant it more as a point of discussion about who teleported Luthor away and why?

I was under the impression that nobody actually helped Luthor and that he teleported himself away.

[Sean Walsh]

Also recall that in COIE # 12, Darkseid briefly hijacked Alex Luthor as a conduit through which to attack the Anti-Monitor. Hmmmm. Might Darkseid have a role in this?[/COLOR]

Upon inspection, Luthor seems to activate something that's on him (there's a "KLK" sound effect just before he "VMMMMM"'s away. New Gods tech isn't that subtle - either a visible pair of Omega Beams blasts you, or a big loud Boom Tube opens up for you to escape.

So it's probably what Alex thinks: a short-range teleporter.

Plus Didio's ruled out that Darkseid will be involved in INFINITE CRISIS at all.

But it sure would be neat if he was involved, though. :)

[davros42]

Plus Didio's ruled out that Darkseid will be involved in INFINITE CRISIS at all.


And we all know that Didio NEVER LIES.

[Adam Crocker]

I wonder if Alexander had Kal-L punch through the barrier so that he could harness the massive amount of power Kal-L exerted.

Possibly, that or weaken him. Of course it could also be as simple as him having to keep up the pretence of doing this in order to bring back Earth-2 by not taking the barrier himself and raising questions from Kal-L.


By the way, DJ, I think this is the first time I've seen you somewhere else besides the Community Forum! Yay you! :)

Pish posh! I also frequent the music board as well where I mock Eric Clapton and post long-winded diatribes about how everything sucks. You should come over sometime and we discuss why society is collasping because A Simple Plan are successful.

[xnef1025]

Ok finally got to read it. Superboy Prime is definitly a patsy. Luthor is playing him like a fiddle. Keeping him inside and out of the sun so he doesn't get too strong and can be easily controlled. The journal is a fake, and Lois probably is too. I'd bet that the beginings of her deterioration coincide with the first appearance of "Society Lex", and Alex has been using some of his power all this time to maintain her existence, but leaving the paradise dimension on his little jaunts took extra power and caused his Lois-construct to get weaker.

[PanzerMega]

Pretty interesting issue.

I really think that the whole "which Dick Grayson is better" question was so hard on E2 Superman because they are both good people, and "who is better" is impossible for him to answer.

[Watchman]

Question:

Is this issue worth the money or should I skip it?

[Buried Alien]

Question:

Is this issue worth the money or should I skip it?

That's not for us to decide. You need to decide for yourself. :)

It comes highly recommended, but that's no guarantee that you'll like it.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[x1243]

Correct me if I'm wrong but was Alexander Luthor's birth affected by the Anti-Monitor's Anti-Matter surge and subsequently the source of Alex's powers?

If so, it seems likely that Alex is corrupted by the Anti-Matter and thus over time has grown partly evil.

And also, what has happened to Earth's Luthor after Superboy 'erased' him?
He didn't erase him.. luthor 'ported out of there.. see the subsequent panels.

[Watchman]

That's not for us to decide. You need to decide for yourself. :)
[/COLOR]

Oh yes, of course I know that. I was just asking for some public opinion. :)

[hitokiri_]

Oh yes, of course I know that. I was just asking for some public opinion. :)


the art sucks, the story exceeds all expectation.

[x1243]

Oh yes, of course I know that. I was just asking for some public opinion. :)
wait for it to be collected in a trade

[cmndob]

Yeah something that should be noted is it was revealed in Outsiders 31 At least part of the cosmic threat is the return of the goddess X'all, the patron god of Tamerineans This is a pretty cosmic detail and will likely be a large part of the Rann/Thanagar wrapup, IMO.

[Steve Brady]

Also recall that in COIE # 12, Darkseid briefly hijacked Alex Luthor as a conduit through which to attack the Anti-Monitor. Hmmmm. Might Darkseid have a role in this?

I'm expecting him to, if only to make some sort of connection to Seven Soldiers (which I think is pretty clearly set after Infinite Crisis) and what's going on in Mister Miracle.

Plus Didio's ruled out that Darkseid will be involved in INFINITE CRISIS at all.

Oh, well, nevermind then.

[Lex]

This issue was pretty good. I'm glad the various seemingly-unrelated subplots are finally leading somewhere. These three issues have had the best Batman characterization in a year and a half. I'm glad they're getting back on track with the character.

I didn't see this thing with Alex and Superboy coming, so it was great actually be surprised by a comic in our spoiler heavy environment. This developement is very interesting.

And I think the art was better this issue. Though I still think Jimenez should take a "less is more" approach when it comes to all the detail he puts into the characters (especially their faces). A couple times I thought his Kal-L face looked horribly disfigured because of the needless detail.

But all-in-all, a good issue.I was re-reading the issue this a.m. and something struck me. Doesn't that spikey-ball, machine following Alex Luthor around bear a little bit more than a passing resemblence to Solaris, the villian of DC 1 Million? Anyone else notice this?Yeah, I noticed that too. I doubt it's him though because DC One Million, while I thought it was an awesome story, doesn't seem like it has any relation to Crisis. But, if Alex wanted the most advanced computer in this universe, a sentient star computer with tech from 80,000 years in the future would be a good one to find.

I hope it's not because Solaris is such a cool concept that it shouldn't be dragged into this story (in barely a support role no less). But it doesn't matter since Morrison is going to use him in All-Star Superman anyway.

[Agentdemon]

review in one word: gold.

[hitokiri_]

do you guys think so?

[Calamas]

And I think the art was better this issue. Though I still think Jimenez should take a "less is more" approach when it comes to all the detail he puts into the characters (especially their faces). A couple times I thought his Kal-L face looked horribly disfigured because of the needless detail.
Actually, I had one complaint about the art too, though not the same as yours. I didn’t care too much for the opening sequence in Atlantis. Everything was so bunched up that sometimes I had trouble telling who was doing what. The first time I didn’t even realize the Spectre had crushed a domed city. But the coloring might have also had something to do with this, going for that underwater effect. Once the story moved on from there I have nothing but complements.

[Mulett]

If Alexander Luthor wants to bring back Earth-3, why doesn't he just jump into hypertime and go visit? Surely he knows Ultraman, SuperWoman, Owl Man ect all exist - they're just in hypertime rather than a parallel earth.

[mrwendell]

Is that silver little ball floating around Alex the actual Brother I?

[Super Monkey]

If Alexander Luthor wants to bring back Earth-3, why doesn't he just jump into hypertime and go visit? Surely he knows Ultraman, SuperWoman, Owl Man ect all exist - they're just in hypertime rather than a parallel earth.

is Hypertime still around?

[Jeff O.]

Possibly, that or weaken him. Of course it could also be as simple as him having to keep up the pretence of doing this in order to bring back Earth-2 by not taking the barrier himself and raising questions from Kal-L.

:) I guess it's also possible that Alexander really did need Kal-L to break through the barrier, and that Alex and Superboy-Prime have since been making trips back in time to set up the Society and destroy the Watchtower to achieve their plans. Of course, that would mean when they arrived at the end of INFINITE CRISIS No. 1, their future selves had already been on Earth and/or the moon in the near past. Oh, those time loops!


Since Kal-L seems almost omniscient at times, having seen from his dimension that Conner Kent was going through a personal crisis, that Batman kept a Kryptonite ring, that the Watchtower had been destroyed, and so on, I wonder what he saw (if anything) at the moment the Watchtower was destroyed. Maybe he was observing something else, or talking to Lois at that moment. I wonder how many of those "windows" the Man of Steel could watch at the same time, and how often Alex was editing them for content.

__________________
http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/Advent/singcand.gif Advent Season's Greetings!

[yenaled]

I've just started to realise how everything fits into together, it makes perfect sense for Alex Luthor and Superboy-Prime to have started up the four different problems in the DCU.

Spectre destroying magic is obviously the easiest one to understand. What's the biggest threat to Superboy, when we know that kyrptonite has no effect on him - Magic.

R/T War is to open up the Spacetime hole thingy. What ever that brings. It is also to place Cronos at the center of the universe. Which bares a striking resemblence to the Monitors base.

Society was for Alex to controll the villains, and make it so he can capture the people he needs for his machine. Also means he could keep heros occupied while things are set up.

OMAC again to keep heros occupied, especially Batman and Wonder Woman and take out the most powerful ones.

[Azrael52]

What about Return of Donna Troy mini? What about the tech/generator they found on new Chronos?

[Joe-Dono]

I am really impressed with IC so far, i just need to get CoiE for christmas to fill in some personal blanks.

What was that screaming face thing in the tower that J'onn was hooked into?

(sorry if it was posted before but im at work and havent got time to look thorugh it all yet)

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

I am really impressed with IC so far, i just need to get CoiE for christmas to fill in some personal blanks.

What was that screaming face thing in the tower that J'onn was hooked into?


Hope you get it!

That guy up-top is The Anti-Monitor, an evil being made of anti-matter, and the primary villain in Crisis on Infinite Earths. His origin is pretty much laid out in COIE, so you'll get everything you need to know if you ever get to crack into it.

I'll let one of these other guys spoil it for ya. ;)

[Shellhead]

Issue #3 was the first one that I really enjoyed. I feel like this story is pulling free from the unnecessary crossovers and defining itself. The scene with Batman and Kal-L was riveting.

The Jiminez artwork is still a little too busy with the lines on the faces, but it wasn't as distracting this issue. In issue #2, his Power Girl fluctuated in appearance from hot to not, and there was one panel where Superman looked an elderly Nicolas Cage. Nothing distracting like that time around.

The contrast between the Perez covers and the Lee covers is striking. As far as I'm concerned, Perez is winning hands down, 3-0 so far. Maybe Lee will learn from this experience and try to improve his craft.

[Lex]

is Hypertime still around?No. The only people who knew what to do with it were Grant Morrison, Mark Waid and Karl Kessel. They all kinda left DC soon after they created Hypertime and the concept was ignored. Now, when asked, Dan DiDio says he has no interest in using it.

And that's too bad because Hypertime was an actual in-story way to explain away creative mistakes. Say for instance, there's a coloring mistake and Clark Kent is wearing a blue tie in one panel and then a red tie in another. Instead of coming up with a lame "No Prize" explaination like he must've changed ties at super speed, Hypertime allows an easier way: A seperate hypertimeline where Clark was wearing a red tie temporarily merged with the main hypertimeline. I'm probably explaining it wrong, but I heard Morrison drew out a map on a napkin once that explained how it works.

What's most disappointing is that Morrison was never able to do his HyperCrisis. He mentioned some of his ideas in an interview once, and they were brilliant. Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll stick some of those ideas into 52.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

What's most disappointing is that Morrison was never able to do his HyperCrisis. He mentioned some of his ideas in an interview once, and they were brilliant. Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll stick some of those ideas into 52.

Hey, that sounds pretty interesting. Any chance you can dig up the article?

[PatrickG]

I've just started to realise how everything fits into together, it makes perfect sense for Alex Luthor and Superboy-Prime to have started up the four different problems in the DCU.

Spectre destroying magic is obviously the easiest one to understand. What's the biggest threat to Superboy, when we know that kyrptonite has no effect on him - Magic.

R/T War is to open up the Spacetime hole thingy. What ever that brings. It is also to place Cronos at the center of the universe. Which bares a striking resemblence to the Monitors base.

Society was for Alex to controll the villains, and make it so he can capture the people he needs for his machine. Also means he could keep heros occupied while things are set up.

OMAC again to keep heros occupied, especially Batman and Wonder Woman and take out the most powerful ones.

Also note that these four schemes essentially target the four major factions that played big roles in Crisis.

The sorcerors, the cosmic fleets and Green Lanterns, the villains (who were united for the first Crisis) and the Justice League (who disbanded now as a result of various OMAC events) were the major factions that helped bring down the Anti-Monitor.

Occupy these four groups and nobody's in any position to halt a secretly initiated Crisis-level event.

[Wrye]

Also note that these four schemes essentially target the four major factions that played big roles in Crisis.

I like this a lot. Luthor--any Luthor--is, above all, a master strategist. (The Luthor vs. Luthor subplot is also a nice nod to the death of Earth-2 Luthor in the original COIE). I'm also inclined to think he was corrupted/possessed at some point by either the antimatter or the remnants of the anti-monitor, as he was a straight-up hero in the original. But this explains so much--an omniscient (not omnipitent) villain, who likes to use Supermen as his agents, and the ability (via the psycho-pirate) to manipulate others, such as Max Lord. He's someone who *could* be stopped, if only the forces of good and bad weren't so darned distracted...

[Sk8maven]

Occupy these four groups and nobody's in any position to halt a secretly initiated Crisis-level event.Nobody except the perpetualy overlooked and underestimated JSA, that is....

For unknown reasons (editorial lack of interest/active hostility?), the JSA weren't operating as a team during Crisis on Infinite Earths. Things might have been different if they had been.

Edit: Not that I expect DC to make any better use of them this time around - even WITH Geoff Johns writing "Infinite Crisis"!

Maven

[xnef1025]

Nobody except the perpetualy overlooked and underestimated JSA, that is....

For unknown reasons (editorial lack of interest/active hostility?), the JSA weren't operating as a team during Crisis on Infinite Earths. Things might have been different if they had been.

Edit: Not that I expect DC to make any better use of them this time around - even WITH Geoff Johns writing "Infinite Crisis"!

Maven
The JSA was kept busy at the start of IC too. They were busy fighting in Thunderbolt's dimension and Dr Fate's tower because of events in DoV. PG is out of the lineup right now, they have to deal with a new/old Dr Fate, and since most of the members are magic based, they'll probably be busy helping with the fall out from the Spectre's rampage.

[jadegiant77]

I am really pissed about Alex Luthor and Superboy being villains all of a sudden(I guess the cover to IC #4 already gave away that one). How did S-boy blow up the Watchtower if he and the E-2 crew broke out of the crystal prison AFTER it happened? Did they both go back in time or something? And why don't they just dip Lois in a Lazarus Pit?


BTW I am literally doing cartwheels over the fact that the new Blue Beetle is Latino! It's about time DC started adding more ethnically diverse characters to its lineup. Sooo...does his story begin OYL or will it start now?

[yenaled]

I am really pissed about Alex Luthor and Superboy being villains all of a sudden(I guess the cover to IC #4 already gave away that one). How did S-boy blow up the Watchtower if he and the E-2 crew broke out of the crystal prison AFTER it happened? Did they both go back in time or something? And why don't they just dip Lois in a Lazarus Pit?

Who says that Alex isn't responcible for Lois' illness, and the Lazarus Pit brings you back ... well not exactly the same.

Alex Luthor made the crystal prison, why wouldn't he be able to manipulate it?

He has clearly been manipulating E2 Superman so it would make sense for him to let Superman believe he was the one who got them out, not that he could leave all the time.

Remember in COIE everyone was helping each other, villains and heros were together, Alex didn't really have time to be shown as anything other than a hero. Being in a crystal prison for 20 or so years can do a lot to someones mental state. Remember him being frm Earth 3 means the normal is to be evil, and his father was the only good person. Doesn't mean Alex has to be good too, also him switching to evil is about as normal as a villain on this earth switching to good.

[Lex]

Hey, that sounds pretty interesting. Any chance you can dig up the article?
Here it is. (http://www.sequentialtart.com/archive/aug02/gmorrison2.shtml)

And this is the passage about HyperCrisis:ST: Did Hypertime "cure" the Crisis mess or cause more problems?

GM: Yes, it cured all the problems but since nobody quite seems to grasp the concept and I didn't get to stay on long enough at DC to explain it, Hypertime has been quietly ignored and no-one quite realises how elegant and perfect the theoretical framework is. It's very simple. I have a diagram.

My one regret about my brief falling out with DC after the 'Superman Incident' is that I didn't get to do my Hypercrisis series at DC to explain all this stuff and set up a whole new playground. It's the one thing I could still be arsed doing with classical superheroes. If I ever go back, I'll explain the whole Hypertime thing and recreate the Challengers of the Unknown as "Challengers: Beyond the Unknown."

It's one thing I still want to do. It had a monster eating the first few years of the 21st century and Superman building a bridge across this gaping hole in time. A bridge made of events. The Guardians of The Multiverse and a new Green Lantern Corps made up of parallel reality Green Lanterns, the Superman Squad and the mystery of the Unknown Superman of 2150 etc, etc. There's a huge synopsis filled with outrageous stuff.

[jadegiant77]

Who says that Alex isn't responcible for Lois' illness, and the Lazarus Pit brings you back ... well not exactly the same.

Alex Luthor made the crystal prison, why wouldn't he be able to manipulate it?

He has clearly been manipulating E2 Superman so it would make sense for him to let Superman believe he was the one who got them out, not that he could leave all the time.

Remember in COIE everyone was helping each other, villains and heros were together, Alex didn't really have time to be shown as anything other than a hero. Being in a crystal prison for 20 or so years can do a lot to someones mental state. Remember him being frm Earth 3 means the normal is to be evil, and his father was the only good person. Doesn't mean Alex has to be good too, also him switching to evil is about as normal as a villain on this earth switching to good.

Bummer. I forgot all about the E-3 stuff, but how's that explain S-boy???

[Mulett]

It could be Alexander and Superboy-Prime could come and go as they please, and just pretended E2 Superman needed to break them out so he didn't get suspicious. The plan, if they are evil, could be to recreate the multiverse so the antimonitor can consume it all again, as he did in CoiE.

As Alexander is half anti-matter, maybe he was corrupted by the antimonitor (who was all anti-matter) or even used as a conduit for the anti-monitor's conscience as a way to survive the battering he got at the end of the CoiE series. He then tucked himself, Superboy Prime and E2 Superman and Lois into a 'paradise' dimension until he had recovered enough or formulated a new plan.

As far as Earth-3 is concerned, sorry if I keep going on about this but doesn’t anyone else think it weird that all the Earth-3 characters (Ultraman, Superwoman, Owl Man etc) were used in a major JLA story just a few months before Infinite Crisis began?

Baring in mind we saw them all die and their world destroyed right at the start of CoiE, it seems very strange planning by the DC editors to bring them back just before such a crucial event. If it gets mentioned and explained in IC then I'll be satisfied, but if it just gets ignored it will be really frustrating.

[xnef1025]

Bummer. I forgot all about the E-3 stuff, but how's that explain S-boy???
SB-P is just jealous of Connor's life. He said it himself, Connor has parents friends, and a girl, and he's got eternity in crystal land with 2 old people and another guy.

[Chris Thomas]

not only was the crime syndicate used, but they implied that the 'universe has changed' from the days of the morrison earth-2 story--so that evil could win on earth 2 and good could win on qward's universe. that actually may have been a prelude. perhaps that made alex luthor a bad dude?

2 other comments:

1. I am not a huge fan of using villians like alex luthor who have sort of 'unknown' powers. too easy to make a contrived plot/flow of events

2. I do not like perez's art and when I said this before, I got some contemptuous remarks like 'how could you not like that art' and some in the vein of 'if you don't like his art, then you have no eye'. well, I don't like his art. there. just don't like it.

[kingdom2000]

With the new info in IC 3, does it seem like Alex and Superboy are correcting all the tactical mistakes that the Anti-Monitor had made?

When read COIE Absolute edition, I noticed that the large part of the reason the Anti-Monitor failed was the self-sacrifice of the flash, the power consumed by his shadow demons, the ability of the heroes to work together, the inability of the villians to work together and follow orders and the Spectre and the use of magic.

To replace the army, we have OMACs (Omac Project)
To remove the trust and ability to work together, the heroes are divided internal through the actions of the JLA, Batman and Wonder Woman. (JLA, Omac, etc)
To teach the villian army to work together and take orders, we have the Society (Villians United).
To eliminate the unpreditable thread of magic and the Spectre, the two factions turned on each other (Day of Veangence).

It basically seems like the entire story arcs of the last year was used to eiminate the planning failures of the Anti-Monitor.

[Shellhead]

Nobody except the perpetualy overlooked and underestimated JSA, that is....

For unknown reasons (editorial lack of interest/active hostility?), the JSA weren't operating as a team during Crisis on Infinite Earths. Things might have been different if they had been.

Edit: Not that I expect DC to make any better use of them this time around - even WITH Geoff Johns writing "Infinite Crisis"!

Maven

Because of Geoff Johns involvement, I expect the JSA to be pivotal players in the resolution of this Crisis. Maybe Kal-L assumes that they will side with him, and when they don't, that's the dramatic finale to this Crisis.

[protege]

I am really pissed about Alex Luthor and Superboy being villains all of a sudden(I guess the cover to IC #4 already gave away that one). How did S-boy blow up the Watchtower if he and the E-2 crew broke out of the crystal prison AFTER it happened? Did they both go back in time or something? And why don't they just dip Lois in a Lazarus Pit?


BTW I am literally doing cartwheels over the fact that the new Blue Beetle is Latino! It's about time DC started adding more ethnically diverse characters to its lineup. Sooo...does his story begin OYL or will it start now?
Yeah, but did he have to be a latino TEENAGER? Don't we have enough of those running around? And, after reading the issue, I'm not convinced Neptune Perkins is dead- it was hard to tell, artwise.

[Kid Seven]

I thought that Neptune Perkins got ripped clean in half, though I could be reading the art wrong. That page was kinda cluttered art-wise.

[Calamas]

Because of Geoff Johns involvement, I expect the JSA to be pivotal players in the resolution of this Crisis. Maybe Kal-L assumes that they will side with him, and when they don't, that's the dramatic finale to this Crisis.
Funny I was thinking the exact opposite. His pre-Crisis issue of JSA featured everybody but. And he’s handed the title to other writers while handling Crisis. I felt he was moving them off stage until he could get back to them.

[PatrickG]

Oh.

And my money suggests we're more likely to see The Monitor emerge as the big bad this time than the Anti-Monitor.

Alex's methods are basically the same as The Monitor's. He wasn't exactly a moral or trustworthy guy himself and he would probably be in favor of bringing back the Multiverse now.

[DDM]

Oh.

And my money suggests we're more likely to see The Monitor emerge as the big bad this time than the Anti-Monitor.

Alex's methods are basically the same as The Monitor's. He wasn't exactly a moral or trustworthy guy himself and he would probably be in favor of bringing back the Multiverse now.

No, the Monitor was merging Earths 1 & 2 before he died. Harbinger included Earths 4, S, & X. The Monitor was setting things up to defeat the Anti-Monitor. He was testing various heroes & villains when the villains bought weapons from the Monitor. The Monitor was getting the heroes & villains ready for the Crisis, although they were none the wiser about the truth.

Everything changed when the multiverse was erased at the Dawn of Time in place of a single universe.

[Lex]

With the new info in IC 3, does it seem like Alex and Superboy are correcting all the tactical mistakes that the Anti-Monitor had made?

When read COIE Absolute edition, I noticed that the large part of the reason the Anti-Monitor failed was the self-sacrifice of the flash, the power consumed by his shadow demons, the ability of the heroes to work together, the inability of the villians to work together and follow orders and the Spectre and the use of magic.

To replace the army, we have OMACs (Omac Project)
To remove the trust and ability to work together, the heroes are divided internal through the actions of the JLA, Batman and Wonder Woman. (JLA, Omac, etc)
To teach the villian army to work together and take orders, we have the Society (Villians United).
To eliminate the unpreditable thread of magic and the Spectre, the two factions turned on each other (Day of Veangence).

It basically seems like the entire story arcs of the last year was used to eiminate the planning failures of the Anti-Monitor.Certainly a good theory, especially since Infinite Crisis is a direct sequal to COIE. In most sequals, the villain(s) or those following in the villain's foosteps usually try and correct the mistakes made the first time. You see that a lot in horror movie sequals.

I can certainly see Alex carefully studying what happened during COIE in planning this out.

[Guts/Batman]

Just read it the first time so I will be reading it again here soon but I thought it was alright. It definitely had the "first issue" feel to it...

I liked the Bat breakdown scene. "I can't do it anymore..." He's human afterall. Who knew!

When he trhew the chair into the computer as if it would do something...That was hilarious.

Then the K Ring panel..."But it's not the Krypton I'm from." What?!? Is there precedence for this or did Johns pull this out of his ass? I thought that scene between Superman E2 and Batman was done well.

I wouldn't give it 10 out of 10 but I would give it a 7-7.5.

The ShadowPact looking almost completely useless in El Paso was great, I thought.

Wonder Woman and seeing what the other Amazon's fail to see is that Brother Eye is waging the war with the Amazon's on 2 fronts. Fighting them and engaging them on the PR front. I'm interested to see how it goes down...

Damnit...Black Adam cannot be taken down!!! He needs to give people some beatdowns and he hasn't castrated Dr. Light I yet...Anyways, I hope he gets away from his cronies.

The scene with the two Luthors doesn't track with me. I know it happened with Supergirl and Powergirl but the way he explained it was a big "WTF" moment in my head.

Though seeing Superboy Prime rip apart Luthor's battlesuit was priceless.

The big reveal...

Looking back on it, it seems to be fairly obvious. Superboy Prime could have been the only one who could have blown up the Watchtower...and how did he get out to do it unless someone on the inside let him out.

And E2 Superman wouldn't be doing that. Lois doesn't have the ability to so it had to be Alexander Luthor.

What I find to be truly hilarious is that Alexander Luthor says that taking care of Lois is his highest priority. Simply hilarious.

And another big "WTF?" moment was the machine. I guess that was a planned one though. I'm gonna have to think about that one before that stops being a "WTF?" moment.

Overall I would give it a 7-7.5. It was a good "first issue".

[Buried Alien]

Then the K Ring panel..."But it's not the Krypton I'm from." What?!? Is there precedence for this or did Johns pull this out of his ass?

Well, there's no precedent for it because until now, nobody explicitly from the Pre-COIE continuity has ever re-emerged into the Post-COIE universe before (Hypertime approximations excepted). I've long suspected, however, that the physics of the Multiverse and the Post-COIE DCU didn't match up exactly.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[marshal99]

Then the K Ring panel..."But it's not the Krypton I'm from." What?!? Is there precedence for this or did Johns pull this out of his ass?

Nothing wrong with that , when superman met the superboy from the time trapper reality , the kryptonite there didn't affect superman but it affected the kryptonians of that reality which was why later , superman was able to use the kryptonite there to kill off General Zod and his cronies.

The pre-crisis universe and post-crisis are on different planes of reality , after all.

[multiplexo]

Maybe he saw in Kal-L what he badly wants to see in Kal-El.

Their confrontation in IC #1 set up that Batman thinks the current Superman is underperforming -- not doing his job properly. I think his breakdown in IC #3 must be seen in that perspective. The world has gone to heck, and he knows it. He also very likely realizes that he isn't the man to fix it. Stuff like that, that's a job for Superman. Only Batman thinks Superman hasn't been doing his job. This guy though, he wants to take action -- Batman just realized it's not the course of action he wants to see taken.

Batman is in a predicament he can't see the way out of -- he doesn't know what to do. In that position, he seems willing to accept help from above. And Superman is essentially a savior figure -- that's what Batman wants him to be, too. Batman is basically pissed with Superman for not doing what Batman himself can't.

The flashbacks also alluded to the traumas Batman has gone through in his life. On some level, he's still a bit of a traumatized child. Kal-L definitely arrived at a vulnerable moment, and he would appear as somewhat of a father figure as well.

This is a great theory. I'd like to see a more discerning examination of the Batman/Superman relationship than what we've seen before. That's one of the reason I like Superman/Batman and am probably the only person who likes the internal dialogs that S and B have in the book.

[Buried Alien]

This is a great theory. I'd like to see a more discerning examination of the Batman/Superman relationship than what we've seen before. That's one of the reason I like Superman/Batman and am probably the only person who likes the internal dialogs that S and B have in the book.

Batman regards Kal-El as a peer and the relates to him as such. With Kal-L, however, the dynamic is different. Kal-L is at least a generation older than Earth-DCU Batman and as such, Batman seems to have a reverence for him due to an elder, not a peer.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[The Flash]

I believe Alexander Luthor is not helping Kal-L bring back Earth-2, but in secrecy he found a way to bring back his homeworld, Earth-3. In this world he was the sole hero, and maybe he wants that feeling back?

Maybe this is very obvious in IC#3. I dont know, havent read it yet.

[Nick Kal]

This issue was fantastic! I love this mini. Johns is awesome.

Okay Alexander Luthor as the Society Luthor... I didn't see that one coming! Good stuff. Superboy Prime and Powergirl stuff was great.. We found J'onn! Batman and Kal-L stuff was also great... Batman on his knees wishing he could start over... that was just a fantastic moment.

*****

[jetter_cheeze]

So i have to wonder...

How much of Alex Luthor's plans does E-2 Superman know about?

Does E-2 superman know about Superboy's attack on the watch tower? Does he know about the thing that Luthor has built?

Does E-2 Superman know all about Luthor's plans and is trying to recruit Batman to help him fight Alex Luthor?

[bfrank]

Well, there's no precedent for it because until now, nobody explicitly from the Pre-COIE continuity has ever re-emerged into the Post-COIE universe before (Hypertime approximations excepted). I've long suspected, however, that the physics of the Multiverse and the Post-COIE DCU didn't match up exactly.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

well, it fould explain PG's on again off again relationship with post crisis k.....

[Nick Kal]

So i have to wonder...

How much of Alex Luthor's plans does E-2 Superman know about?

Does E-2 superman know about Superboy's attack on the watch tower? Does he know about the thing that Luthor has built?

Does E-2 Superman know all about Luthor's plans and is trying to recruit Batman to help him fight Alex Luthor?

I think Kal-L does not know.. it is just a Alexander/ Sb Prime thing.

I wonder how Luthor was able to take Society Lex form and also keep that away from Kal-L and Lois... if he did...

Crisis Secret Files will be a can't miss now.

[Titan76]

God this was a great issue!! I just wish they show more of what is happening in space with Donna and the others though. I can't wait until the next comes out, one month is too dam long.

[marshal99]

I believe Alexander Luthor is not helping Kal-L bring back Earth-2, but in secrecy he found a way to bring back his homeworld, Earth-3. In this world he was the sole hero, and maybe he wants that feeling back?

Maybe this is very obvious in IC#3. I dont know, havent read it yet.


Errr , Alex Luthor barely knew his own earth , he was a baby when he was send off in a rocket into the multiverse when his earth was whitewashed in the crisis wave ,he was aged rapidly and brought up by the Monitor , how can he know what feeling it is to be the sole hero ?!?

[moonlight_night78]

Maybe that's the reason that he's doing it. He barely knew/remembers his parents or his world, if at all. His parents sent him to Earth-1 with the intent of being helped by the Justice League. Instead, he was basically used by the Monitor for his powers and not given a second thought, other than what he can do to further the Monitor's plans.

[DanteSF]

Still loving on this storyline. It's like one big fanboy orgasm! Looking forward to #4 and hoping to see Conner get off his ass and open up a can on Superboy-Prime...

[Super Monkey]

Errr , Alex Luthor barely knew his own earth , he was a baby when he was send off in a rocket into the multiverse when his earth was whitewashed in the crisis wave ,he was aged rapidly and brought up by the Monitor , how can he know what feeling it is to be the sole hero ?!?

yes and also...

He was NEVER a hero on Earth-3, his Dad was :)

Alexander Luthor, this kid is Alexander Luthor Jr.

http://supermanica.info/wiki/index.php/Alexander_Luthor_of_Earth-3

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Two extra stuff

1) I LOVED the last page! You can see how the Alex/Superboy Prime team-up works. Alex = Brains, Superboy = Muscle. I got some questions.

He was able to take down PG with one punch, and was able to beat MM (who's stronger than Superman) with one blast. How strong is Superboy Prime?

Also, does Alex Luthor's abilities also work on other people? Is he stronger, or more of a threat than Superboy Prime?

2) Did you see Batman's look on the last page?!? He's looking as mad as he was in the IdC flashback!


P.S: Donna and crew are screwed next issue!

[Harry Angel]

yes and also...

He was NEVER a hero on Earth-3, his Dad was :)

Alexander Luthor, this kid is Alexander Luthor Jr.

http://supermanica.info/wiki/index.php/Alexander_Luthor_of_Earth-3

What I don't get is why anyone would think of him as a hero in the first place.

Sure his Dad was a hero, but on his home world of Earth-3, that made Lex the exception. After all of Earth-3, even before the Crisis the natural order of things was that evil was good, and good was evil.

So being a total bastard, psycho badguy is simply Alex's natural state of being.

So there's really no surprise here.

Although I was more then a bit surprised to see the Earth-Prime Superboy turn out to be a wanker.

[Buried Alien]

What I don't get is why anyone would think of him as a hero in the first place.

CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS.

Judging Alex by this intentions and actions back then, this is quite a turnaround.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Buried Alien]

He was able to take down PG with one punch, and was able to beat MM (who's stronger than Superman) with one blast. How strong is Superboy Prime?

If he's at the level that he was during COIE, then he's capable of throwing Earth-sized planets like basketballs, igniting stars with his heat vision (or extinguishing them with his breath), and flying across the universe on his own power in a matter of minutes.



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[LordEd1976]

If he's at the level that he was during COIE, then he's capable of throwing Earth-sized planets like basketballs, igniting stars with his heat vision (or extinguishing them with his breath), and flying across the universe on his own power in a matter of minutes.



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

let's not forget that in both cases he took his opponents by surpirse.

[Wrye]

Thinking about Alex's motives, I think he's aiming bigger than merely returning E-3 to existence. Didn't he say something in VU as Society Luthor along the lines of reorganizing the universe with him on top?

SB-P is clearly a dupe, Lois' illness is likely some sort of Luthorian blackmail/ploy, and..damn. SB-P is more powerful by far than Kal-L. Luthor is working just about every angle I can see. Quite apart from the fact that none of earth's current heroes clearly remember the original Crisis and Luthor's role in it...

As for kryptonite, I also seem to recall that even Earth-1-universe and Earth-2-universe kryptonite didn't affect Kryptonians from the other universe. (not that it came up often...)

[Buried Alien]

From # 3, we've seen that the Anti-Monitor does indeed have a role in all this (albeit quite a passive one so far). Just what will the role of the original COIE's villain be in this current Crisis?


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Ralph Dibney]

There is no way he does that to Power Girl and J'onn... Something's up...

[Guts/Batman]

I have a feeling that the AM will be brought back somehow...

And that he is manipulating Alexander and Superboy Prime.

[Harry Angel]

CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS.

Judging Alex by this intentions and actions back then, this is quite a turnaround.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Honestly, I never trusted him then either.

I was really surprised in the end when he didn't turn out to be a pawn of the Anti-Monitor.

[Guts/Batman]

CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS.

Judging Alex by this intentions and actions back then, this is quite a turnaround.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Yea.

He was clearly against the AM but since he has time to think he about what he had seen of DCU.

While it isn't surprising when you factor in that he is half positive matter, half negative matter it certainly is a change.

Superboy Prime is much more puzzling.

[mdg1]

Here it is. (http://www.sequentialtart.com/archive/aug02/gmorrison2.shtml)

And this is the passage about HyperCrisis:

I think elements of this will be showing up in All-Star Superman. I clearly remember Grant mentioning an "Unknown Superman"

[Super Monkey]

About Superboy of Earth-Prime no one really knows how powerful he really is.

You can read all of his stories, other than the Crisis mini issues right here:

http://superman.ws/tales2/superboyprime/

Merry Christmas :)

[multiplexo]

Alexander Luthor of Garth Morrison's Earth 2 series. Did that series just not happen? Hell, JLA just did a huge arc based around it.

[multiplexo]

At the end of IC #3 Batman is watching the footage of the destruction of the Watchtower which he has finally recovered from the security black boxes. The footage shows E-Prime Superboy attacking the Martian Manhunter and then talking to E-3 Alexander Luthor who then tells him to destroy the Watchtower. Is Batman going to assume that this is some plot between Connor Kent and bald, green-eyed battlesuit Luthor?

[Davmeister84]

I doubt it. Alex Luthor and SB-Prime both have very different looks from Lex and Conner. Conner seems much more built and has different facial features, while Lex looks distinctly older than Alex.

Plus, with Kal-L having just visited him, he knows that something is afoot with wonky space-time continuums and has no reason to suspect that those two aren't related to it.

At the end of IC #3 Batman is watching the footage of the destruction of the Watchtower which he has finally recovered from the security black boxes. The footage shows E-Prime Superboy attacking the Martian Manhunter and then talking to E-3 Alexander Luthor who then tells him to destroy the Watchtower. Is Batman going to assume that this is some plot between Connor Kent and bald, green-eyed battlesuit Luthor?

[Arkham Resident]

Got it. Read it. Liked it... Id still buy issue no.4.

Like i've said in the previous threads my doubts about Alex Luthor just got nailed in this issue. But who controls him?

Spectre's ire turns on Atlantis... Are those under sea considered magical creatures? Why is Spectre eradicating them?

Wonder Woman sort of redeemed herself in this issue showing a heart that values lives and promotes peace rather than the cold killing machine Diana she was made to look.. Although the scene when Athena and the gang made an apparition to affirm WW's request and confession was kinda corny..

I'll reserve my thoughts on Kal-L and Batman's but Bruce was at his best in this issue given the circumstances his in...

generally, a great issue...interms of addressing the speculations left behind by the first two.. :)

[Amethyst Rose]

Spectre said he heard them chanting, which meant magic was probably being used. So he squashed them. And was it Tempest who said to Dolphin to "get our daughter out of here'? I thought they'd had a son...

[DDM]

Alexander Luthor of Garth Morrison's Earth 2 series. Did that series just not happen? Hell, JLA just did a huge arc based around it.

Yes, "Syndicate Rules" happened. However, Alexander Luthor Jr, is the child of Earth-3 Alex Luthor & Lois Lane; his Earth-3 dimension was destroyed in Crisis On Infinite Earths #1. Earth-3 is close to the anti-matter Earth introduced in JLA: Earth-2, but it is not an exact replica. For instance, the post-Crisis Superwoman is Lois Lane. The Earth-3 Lois Lane was good, married to Alex Luthor. The pre-Crisis Superwoman was a renegade amazon.

I won't be surprised when the post-Crisis Crime Syndicate of Amerika show up in Infinite Crisis.

[multiplexo]

Yes, "Syndicate Rules" happened. However, Alexander Luthor Jr, is the child of Earth-3 Alex Luthor & Lois Lane; his Earth-3 dimension was destroyed in Crisis On Infinite Earths #1. Earth-3 is close to the anti-matter Earth introduced in JLA: Earth-2, but it is not an exact replica. For instance, the post-Crisis Superwoman is Lois Lane. The Earth-3 Lois Lane was good, married to Alex Luthor. The pre-Crisis Superwoman was a renegade amazon.

I won't be surprised when the post-Crisis Crime Syndicate of Amerika show up in Infinite Crisis.

I know all of this. Also that the original Earth-3 was a much sunnier place than Morrison's Earth-2, at the end of the JSA/JLA Earth 3 stories the CSA usually ended up busted and in jail, or limbo, or something. One interesting thing about Morrison's Earth-2 is where Brainiac refers at one point to at last being able to escape this pocket reality, or words to that effect. Making me wonder if Morrison had something else in mind to explain the origin of the anti-matter Earth-2.

[PeteGunn]

Some thoughts:

Both Luthor and the Joker are on the outs here; that's interesting.:evilsmile

Where's Uncle Sam?

The more Shadowpact I see, the more I like this team. Another DC book I'll buy.

I don't know which is more interesting, Bats not messing with the Society or the Society not messing with Bats.

At least we know where the "Big Seven" are; each of their whereabouts have been noted.

Superman vs. Superman? Superboy vs. Superboy? Is this a tag team event and is it sanctioned by the WWE?:p

That Spectre gets around. Is he gonna get his? Maybe he should go against the OMACs and make himself useful!

With Tempest doing his thing, Donna in space with her team and the Flash, being set up for something, lets get Nightwing involved in this gig.

Is Johns gonna be able to wrap this up in seven issues? If so, they'll complete this before... well, I won't go there here. I take that to another board!:evilsmile

[JBeckett]

SBP is clearly being manipulated by Alex. The big issue is who (if anyone) is playing Alex. It's hard to tell in that all we know of him are those COIE books along with the special Wolfman wrote that fits in around issue 4. Anyone given that a reread lately? There may be something there...

Seeing that tower with the AM's husk along with those heroes strapped on is exciting however it all boils down though. It will be fun to see the actual purpose behind it all. Is Earth-3 coming back the plan? Will Alex be thwarted but just not in time (or it all doesn't pan out as planned) and the resulting /coolness/craziness of OYL/the 7 (gulp 6) Soldiers/and all the other fun coming our way be because of that?

My 2 centz is we the readers are the ultimate winners-I just read all 18 pages of this thread and am about to reread the whole Villains United mini over these holla-dayze. There are numerous opinions out there about the flow of this story, its scope and Phil's art but the bottom line is it's good for all of us-fanz, retale-ers, cree-ate-ors-everyone. Like they say how any publicity is good publicity. This much talk/hype about a story can be nothing but good. Thanks Didio and Co.-and here I didn't get you anything for Christmas.....

[Guts/Batman]

That Spectre gets around. Is he gonna get his? Maybe he should go against the OMACs and make himself useful!

Michael or Lucifer should have come down on him a looooooooooooooong time ago. (Yes, I know Michael is dead.)

And damnit, where's God?

In addition, I'm kinda thinking that the more I read, the more I think Superboy Prime wiped out his own Earth.

[Cayman]

Michael or Lucifer should have come down on him a looooooooooooooong time ago. (Yes, I know Michael is dead.)

And damnit, where's God?

In addition, I'm kinda thinking that the more I read, the more I think Superboy Prime wiped out his own Earth.

God abandoned his creation in Lucifer not too long ago. Clearly he didn't want to deal with the whole Spectre thing.

Cay

[Sk8maven]

God abandoned his creation in Lucifer not too long ago. Clearly he didn't want to deal with the whole Spectre thing. Was that before or after Lucifer abandoned his domain (see: Sandman, "Season of Mists")?

Maven

[Guts/Batman]

God abandoned his creation in Lucifer not too long ago. Clearly he didn't want to deal with the whole Spectre thing.

Cay

I knew that...

But the question to me is, how connected are Vertigo-verse and DCU...

[Cayman]

Was that before or after Lucifer abandoned his domain (see: Sandman, "Season of Mists")?

Maven

It was after, it was maybe a year and a half ago in the Lucifer book.

Cay

[Cayman]

I knew that...

But the question to me is, how connected are Vertigo-verse and DCU...

Ostrander had them pretty connected in Spectre, I believe he used Duma and that other guy (Remiel?). But otherwise not too much. I was reading the solicits for an upcoming Demon issue and it looked like Byrne's got his own Lucifer running around.

Cay

[Guts/Batman]

Ostrander had them pretty connected in Spectre, I believe he used Duma and that other guy (Remiel?). But otherwise not too much. I was reading the solicits for an upcoming Demon issue and it looked like Byrne's got his own Lucifer running around.

Cay

I saw that solicit as well. I was thinking the same thing.

I been looking into getting the Ostrander Spectre series but I was hoping they had been collected in tpbs but alas they haven't so I'm gonna be awhile on completing that task.

Anyways, I thought they were never that connected. But given what is happening in WSU (Captain Atom: Armageddon), I'm thinking they are more connected than I thought they were.

On one of the broken screen things in this issue it had Captain Atom flying around in WSU so I think the events of Infinite Crisis and Armageddon are very much tied together.

[PatrickG]

BTW...

A lot of the complaints have been that things have been going too "dark" and that there's been too much effort to make things "realistic".

Note that Alex comes from a particularly "dark" earth and Superboy-Prime comes from a particularly "real" earth.

And we know that they've been slipping out of the Paradise dimension without Kal-L's knowledge.

I have a feeling that the various reboots, continuity glitches and dark things will turn out to be a result of Alex and S-P tinkering with the DCU.

The Doom Patrol, both Man of Steel AND Birthright, etc. As well as things like Max Lord going bad, Identity Crisis, etc.

[Guts/Batman]

I have a feeling that the various reboots, continuity glitches and dark things will turn out to be a result of Alex and S-P tinkering with the DCU.

The Doom Patrol, both Man of Steel AND Birthright, etc. As well as things like Max Lord going bad, Identity Crisis, etc.

That's what I'm thinking as well.

It's too early to tell because I didn't think the big "reveal" would be this soon ijn the mini but I feel there is something else behind the scenes. There always is.

[Cayman]

That's what I'm thinking as well.

It's too early to tell because I didn't think the big "reveal" would be this soon ijn the mini but I feel there is something else behind the scenes. There always is.

It's the Fiddler. He made it appear as if Mockingbird killed him in order to better fulfill he's evil plan!

Cay

[Guts/Batman]

It's the Fiddler. He made it appear as if Mockingbird killed him in order to better fulfill he's evil plan!

Cay

Heh.

Freakin sweet. :D

But on a more serious note, does anyone else think that the AM isn't dead?

[DDM]

Heh.

Freakin sweet. :D

But on a more serious note, does anyone else think that the AM isn't dead?

If the Anti-Monitor was not dead, he would have destroyed the positive matter universe. The fact the positive matter universe remains is reason enough to believe the Anti-Monitor is dead.

[Guts/Batman]

If the Anti-Monitor was not dead, he would have destroyed the positive matter universe. The fact the positive matter universe remains is reason enough to believe the Anti-Monitor is dead.

Perhaps.

Or just not powerful enough to sustain a physical body without Alex and Superboy Prime doing his work for him.

I'm only about 60% he's dead.

[rexpop]

Perhaps.

Or just not powerful enough to sustain a physical body without Alex and Superboy Prime doing his work for him.

I'm only about 60% he's dead.

I would go with dispersed rather than dead. At the end of the original Crisis the Anti Monitors body was destroyed and then his energy form was scattered by the E2 Superman.

I suspect that the way they might play it is that the Anti Monitors energy form is scattered around the DC Universe (hence the post-Crisis darkness that has been hinted at) but is too weak to reform and the device seen in IC #3 will gather everything together back into the armor.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Can't say I was even remotely surprised by the reveal of Luthor & Superboy as the villains because they are both such perfect candidates for the roles. So, I can't really call this much of a complaint.

The art made a big improvement from last issue's weak effort. I think having Perez around to help out is giving Jiminez the time he needs to keep the quality up was a good idea.

Atlantis getting smooshed by The Spectre and Paradise Island disappearing are interesting developments, although I hope it doesn't turn Wonder Woman into even more of a Superman clone, being the last of her kind now.

Looking forward to next issue, but I must admit my enthusiasm is wanning. After all the build-up, I'd just like them to get on with it and move on to One Year Later and the new status quo at this point. Granted, I still have no clue as to what that new status quo will be, which is certainly saying something these days. I've really gotta give DC credit on that.

[Will.S]

Can't say I was even remotely surprised by the reveal of Luthor & Superboy as the villains because they are both such perfect candidates for the roles. So, I can't really call this much of a complaint.
Yeah, there always seemed to be something "off" with them. Both of them lost their worlds with Superman getting Lois and a place to stay so they either want to get those worlds back in the worst way possible or they have just lost it due to all the crap they've been through.

The art made a big improvement from last issue's weak effort. I think having Perez around to help out is giving Jiminez the time he needs to keep the quality up was a good idea.
I actually thought that the art suffered a bit due to the inkers. Especially the dual Luthor's scene, it wasn't tight enough looking as when Lanning does solo inking. I have to admit the art was damn detailed though even if I didn't recognize alot of characters during the Atlantis melee.

Looking forward to next issue, but I must admit my enthusiasm is wanning. After all the build-up, I'd just like them to get on with it and move on to One Year Later and the new status quo at this point. Granted, I still have no clue as to what that new status quo will be, which is certainly saying something these days. I've really gotta give DC credit on that.
I sort of agree. With OYL and *52 coming, Infinite Crisis already sort of feels like "old news" and I would hope that they get to the big crisis point (which it does seem to be getting there with Alexander's Anti-Monitor & Super hero powered machine) where all the heroes fight a common threat or something major happens. With next issue's cover that looks to be happening soon but with so many books left to go it's in danger of either being too big or outstaying it's welcome.

The revelations in this issue were great though looking back at where the manipulations were talking place making Villains United and JLA the most important books contributing towards IC although both Days of Vengeance and Rann Thanagar War still have their backround plots.

Overall I highly enjoyed the issue although both the Firestorm/Outsider and Aquaman books are more in depth about what's happening in IC so I think that those will be collected alongside IC in the TPB.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Finally got around to looking at this one. Ugh. This is not a good comic in a standalone sense, nor does it really seem to carry its weight as a chapter in an ongoing story.

The art is a bit better than last issue, thankfully. Jiminez still draws a pretty funny-looking version of the Earth-2 Superman, but at least he generally doesn't look like his face is melting this issue, and Power Girl doesn't look like some steriod warning ad either.

Story-wise, lots of angsty-whiny stuff and lots of expository stuff and fairly little forward motion. The villain reveals werent' particularly surprising, nor was the general idea of the big gizmo with all the captured heroes and the remains of the Anti-Monitor - something like that was obvious from who has been getting nabbed - even if the details looked sort of cool. Wonder Woman apparently loses her supporting cast and most of what makes her unique. Atlantis goes smoosh. Eh.

Grade: D+

[jadegiant77]

Yeah, but did he have to be a latino TEENAGER? Don't we have enough of those running around? And, after reading the issue, I'm not convinced Neptune Perkins is dead- it was hard to tell, artwise.


Yeh we do have a glut of teen heroes, but what the hell.

[Lorendiac]

Okay, I think I was told, a couple of months ago, that these Polls should be attached to the Megathreads for each issue instead of being separate threads of their own . . .

*****

I have read Infinite Crisis #3. I'm assuming that you have too. After #1 came out, I posted what I called "The Infinite Crisis Casualty Poll, Round 1." The idea was that you were supposed to read #1 first, and then vote on which (if any) major character you expected to see die and replaced by someone else, as was rumored in Rich Johnston's "Lying in the Gutter" (http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=2203) column a few months ago.

After #2 came out, I did the same thing, with the addition of a follow-up question on how long you expect the Casualty you voted for to stay dead.

Now I'm posting Round 3. Again, you're supposed to read #3 before voting, just in case it has some clues in it that might change your mind from whatever your previous opinion was.


Round 3: Which major DC character will die and be replaced in Infinite Crisis? (http://www.internationalvoting.com/int3/ask.cgi?pid=28-981)

Round 3, Follow-Up Question: "How long do you expect that major character to STAY dead (measured by the time passing in the real world until his or her return is published)?" (http://www.internationalvoting.com/int3/ask.cgi?pid=27-501)

Let me stress that the name of Superman on the ballot, for instance, represents the "mainstream" Superman of the modern DCU who has been appearing in the regular Superman titles lately, and not any parallel-world analogs such as the Earth-2 Superman or the Earth-Prime Superboy. Whether or not either or both of those parallel-world characters will die in Infinite Crisis is a different matter, far outside the scope of this particular Poll. Same logic applies to the names Batman, Wonder Woman, Firestorm, etc.


Results from the Previous Round

About a week and a half after I started Round 2, the server hosting these polls apparently hiccupped and erased all the votes that had been cast. I decided not to beg everybody who had voted to please go back and vote all over again in the same round. So here's the best I can do: A reprise of what I posted in an Update a week or so after Round 2 started, telling people how things were going at that time.


***** ROUND 2 RESULTS, AS OF NOVEMBER 15, 2005 *****

At this moment, the Top Three Vote-Getters in Round 2 are:

1. Batman: 18.1%
2. Wonder Woman: 16.9%
3. Nightwing 10.8%

Down at the other end, we have a six-way tie for last place among various candidates who have not gotten a single vote in this round. They are:

Black Canary
The Elongated Man
Green Lantern
Hawkgirl
The Martian Manhunter
The Phantom Stranger

And on the Follow-Up Question about how long the major character will stay dead . . .

The most popular choice is "At least 20 years - maybe even permanently!" with 31.7%.

The second most popular choice is "At least one year," with 22.0%.

The third most popular choice is "Less than 12 months," with 17.1%.

Given that another available option was "at least two years," anyone who voted for "at least one year" was implicitly saying "At least one, but I expect it to be less than two full years."

So it appears that a whopping 39.1% of the people who have bothered to vote favor the idea that DC is already planning to bring back whomever they dramatically kill, in a story that will be published less than two years after that person's death scene occurs!

[stealthwise]

I really dug this issue. Things moved along at a nice clip, and jumping from scene to scene really works well for the issue. Nothing too surprising here overall, though it's nice to have some speculations confirmed. I'm honestly interested in what happens next, which is always nice. The art is passable, and doesn't detract from my enjoyment whatsoever.

A few things:

- Villains United Spoilers: Is Pariah actually dead? They showed him being shot off-panel in Villains United, but during the Crisis he was immortal. Interesting to see if he shows up again... or is involved in this event more than it seems?

- Why would Kal-L want Batman's help? Is he simply missing one of his best friends, or is there something else going on here? Why would he need Bats' help at all?

- What's with the Vertigo universe spoilers? People have been tossing around stuff with Lucifer out of nowhere, which really sucks, considering that I've only just finished the fourth trade, and it doesn't have any bearing on the events here in the DCU. Come on guys, at least put up a little warning if you're going to give away big plot points.

[COMIXROCK]

I don't think Kal-L (older superman from earth 2) NEEDS Batman, but he just wants to include him in the return of Earth 2. I think that He misses the Batman from his own Earth and believes that when (if) his own Earth 2 returns that there should be a Batman and a Superman, World's Finest as he says in issue #3. After all, what part could Batman play in bringing back Earth 2. He's only a human. Ok, an extraordinary human, but has no special powers to cause or aid sth like bringing back earth 2.

Or it could be that he thinks that the Batman on this Earth is one of the truly decent heroes left on this Earth, and feels that he deserves the chance at a better life.

Maybe he knows that Batman is headed towards a breakdown (Which I will be po'd at if it should happen btw). Don't lose sight of the fact that this Superman is a very moral individual, and always believes in doing the right thing. He's basically trying to help someone who he would like to see as a friend, and who is just like him in trying to do the right thing. As Batman said to Superman in IC#1, it's not about spying, it's about doing everything that can be done to help.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong...

Any views?...

[stealthwise]

Or does Kal actually need Batman to help him out? Maybe Kal isn't so sure that he can restore Earth-2 proper without assistance. Could be the same reason that Superboy-Prime and Alex Luthor were trying to get Power Girl's help.

Though I suppose that the fact that E-2 Batman died may play a role as well. The current Bruce could stand in as a "replacement," but that part feels like Kal trying to play god to me.

[COMIXROCK]

Yeah, but superman 2 doesn't seem like the kinda guy to act as a god or anything like that.

Is Batman really gonna suffer a nervous breakdown and be admitted to Arkham. Is there any truth to that rumour.
I heard as well, probably from Wizard Magazine, that someone in the DC universe is keeping a door open that is allowing dead heroes to come back to life. Maybe this is Superman 2, trying togive the current Earth 1 a chance to sort itself out by reintroducing dead heroes back into it.
Stupid theory I know, but I am curious as to who is keeping this doorway open.

Anybody have any clue as to what the spectre meant when he said "Vengeance is mine" in issue 3? Seems to me that someone who's got a beef with Aquaman and Atlantis and also has the power to control the spectre may be the peron behind the scenes causing all this hassle.

[palaeomerus]

I picked the Infinity Gauntlet at my radio Shack. cheap price too.

Uh-oh.....

excuse me. I just made the entire state of Wisconsin blink out of existence and rewrote history so Tom Cruise became the ruler of France.

I'll be right back as soon as reality has been fixed.

Yeah Yeah. I just picked up a twenty-four pack of cosmic cubes down at Sams and they threw in a mail in rebate coupon that gets me a free Serpent Crown.

I get it already!

geez!

[Amethyst Rose]

Yeah, but superman 2 doesn't seem like the kinda guy to act as a god or anything like that.

Is Batman really gonna suffer a nervous breakdown and be admitted to Arkham. Is there any truth to that rumour.
I heard as well, probably from Wizard Magazine, that someone in the DC universe is keeping a door open that is allowing dead heroes to come back to life. Maybe this is Superman 2, trying togive the current Earth 1 a chance to sort itself out by reintroducing dead heroes back into it.
Stupid theory I know, but I am curious as to who is keeping this doorway open.

Anybody have any clue as to what the spectre meant when he said "Vengeance is mine" in issue 3? Seems to me that someone who's got a beef with Aquaman and Atlantis and also has the power to control the spectre may be the peron behind the scenes causing all this hassle.


Not sure about the Batman/Arkham thing.

And Raven commented in a recent book (not sure which one) about the open door, and that death no longer really means anything.

The Vengeance quote struck me, as Spectre is supposed to be God's wrath, and who hasn't heard the line "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord." As for who's pulling all the strings, that hasn't been revealed yet.

[DDM]

Anybody have any clue as to what the spectre meant when he said "Vengeance is mine" in issue 3? Seems to me that someone who's got a beef with Aquaman and Atlantis and also has the power to control the spectre may be the peron behind the scenes causing all this hassle.

The Spectre is God's vengeance; however, without a human host, he is out of control.

[RedneckJedi]

Wow, I really enjoyed being enlightened about the rationale of how Alexander Luthor is playing this out (if only I was believed on this forum that it WAS E2 Lois that they were talking about "saving" at the end of Infinite Crisis #1. :rolleyes: ). It seems Superboy Prime is practically under Alexander's thrall, and willing to do anything to enforce his will. I also think that Alexander is also causing E2 Lois' malady. I wonder, though, why Powergirl thinks she can save both Earths?

I don't have much to add, but I wanted to mention something about Alexander's "tuning fork" thing (similar ones were created by the Monitor in CoIE). Unless I glossed over it in this thread, along with the captured metas and the Anti-Monitor's remains, it would appear that R2-D2 is also integral in the machine's operation. :rolleyes:

This also clued me in to the need for anti-matter to bring about whatever it is Alexander wants. It's interesting to consider that the anti-matter half of his persona may be corrupted or putting him out of balance. I also like the thought of the dispersed Anti-Monitor causing all the "evil" in the universe, or perhaps even bringing the matter universe closer to the anti-matter universe as shown in Morrison's Earth 2 and Syndicate Rules. I've been wondering what the cosmic disturbance is about, and I wonder if this has something to do with it.

When it all comes down to it, I don't know what Alexander's true goal is, but E2 Superman is driven to realign the universe with his own Earth 2 version. I wonder, though, if Superboy Prime believes that Alexander intends to return the multiverse, and therefore not only return Earth 2, but also Earth Prime and Alexander's own Earth 3. Frankly, I figured Superboy Prime, and perhaps even Alexander, are driven by simple jealousy. Why should E2 Superman get what he wants back while the others are left with nothing?

[Gentlegamer]

Unless I glossed over it in this thread, along with the captured metas and the Anti-Monitor's remains, it would appear that R2-D2 is also integral in the machine's operation. Haven't you seen the Prequels? There's nothing that droid can't do!

[mohammedali]

Haven't you seen the Prequels? There's nothing that droid can't do!
Dare I say it, I know my life would be easier with an R2 unit. You never know when you need to hack into the mainframe of a deathstar...

[Xero]

I saw Piscator in the Aquaman issue that ties into Infinite Crisis #3 but I can't tell if he's actually in #3.

[Black Hole]

I thought this was a great issue. The best one yet.

A couple of things: I am not well versed on Villains United. Who were the villains who attacked Black Adam? Were they "realistically" capable of taking him down? And so quickly? He's pretty tough.

If that is the Anti-Monitor's armor and decayed body, is it still made of anti-matter? Wouldn't it at least explode or something when existing in a positive matter universe? Maybe Alex Luthor "converted the format" of the armor?

Someone earlier in the thread brought up the idea that the heroes that have been collected have something to do with the strike force from COIE #7. Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

I thought Superboy Prime was acting pretty unstable this whole time. Not at all like how he acted at the end of COIE. How did they get out of the "Crystal Palace" without Superman noticing that they were gone all those times?

The art was better in this issue. Power Girl did not look so hideously ugly. Jimenez must have been reading some of the fan feedback. Unfortunately I got the darn Perez cover...Wonder Woman. Ugh. Next time I'll hold out for the Jim Lee edition.

Not very excited bout the new Blue Beetle. They shouldn't have killed the old one, and the whole "newbie teen hero" thing is played out.

I really liked the E2 Superman and Batman interaction. Finally a civil conversation between Batman and Superman (well A Superman anyway)! The Dick Grayson comment I took to mean that it was not so easy to claim that Earth 2 was so superior to Current Earth.

I have to admit that I really don't care in the slightest what happens to Wonder Woman or that Amazons, so to me that space is wasted. And I'm only slightly interested in the whole "Donna Troy/Rann-Thanagar/out in space" saga...but the stuff happening back on Earth is way more than enough to make up for it.

Anyway I'm really looking forward to the next issue.