A Sinister observation about Rachel

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Since he first appeared, Sinister has been drawn to most and every kind of Summers in Marvel history. From Scott to Havok to even their mates(Jean and Lorna), eventually coming face to face with the two Summers' offspring he helped come into being...Nathan Summers and Nate Grey. But there is one he has often neglected..Rachel Summers. Yeah...Ms. Mother Askani herself often is never spoken of in Sinister appearances and during his escapades in collecting Summers DNA for his records. Sinister has tried to control and manipulate the directions of Scott, Alex, Cable, Nate Grey, and Scott/Alex's grandparents since day 1. Why has he been so neglectful of probably the second most powerful Summers on record in his timeline?

[The Fury]

Why has he been so neglectful of probably the second most powerful Summers on record in his timeline?
You raise a good point. Sinister's lack of interest in her might be due to a few things...none of which I can think of.

But consider this, in one issue when he had captured Bishop, he got confused as toy why this mutant's DNA was not in his database....in other words Sinister did not know Bishop even existed...the same might be true for Rachel as they are both time travelers.

[Lawrence]

Maybe it's to do with the theory that Rachel isn't actually Cyclop's daughter, but Wolverine's?
When ARE they going to clear that up anyway?

[Callie]

I suppose you're trying to say that Rachel is not Scott's. I think I'll wait until Marvel states exactly who the daddy is. I know Claremont wants her to be the child of Phoenix and Jean ( :rolleyes: ) but I think normal origins would be more appealing.

[Crimson]

Isn't there three theorys for her origin?

a) She is Jean and Cyclops child
b) She is Jean and Wolverine's child
c) She was born from the Phoenix Force and Jean.

B and C would take her out of Sinister's mission, no?

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Maybe it's to do with the theory that Rachel isn't actually Cyclop's daughter, but Wolverine's?
When ARE they going to clear that up anyway?

WHOA, WHOA, WHOA! When the heck did something like this start up? That would be a DISGUSTING retcon. How would Rachel be what she is without being a Summers?

Fury: You're talking about X-Men #52, right? When he captured Bishop, Gambit, and Dark Beast(disguised as Beast), learning about the AoA in the process and speaking about how he wanted to get a sample of Bishop's genetic tissue for analysis anyway since he was one of the few mutants on earth he didn't have firsthand information on.

[grampa doowop]

In an issue of Excalibur (60-or 70-something, I think) where the team was only Nightcrawler, Shadowcat, and Phoenix (Rachel), and the team had just moved to Muir Isle, Siena Blaze was sent by Sinister I think to kill Moira or was it to obtain a disk from Muir Isle...but didn't count on Excalibur being there. They fought and barely survived her attack. During the attack at one point, Siena Blaze scratched Rachel and when she returned to Sinister's base, she mentioned that in passing. Sinister, mad because she didn't do what she was assigned to do, immediately became happier and grabbed her hand and scraped her fingernails for Rachel's DNA. Talk about desperate! Now since his base(s?) have been destroyed by the X-Men and Gambit at different times, who knows if he still has it. But he did have it once.

[ProfessorTen]

Sinister did show some interest in Rachel during her Excalibur stint (maybe someone can remember the issue number - it was after Davis' run and before she exited the book in issue #75).

One of the upstarts (the blond haired chick - forget her name - the one that gave Storm and Cyclops a problem in X-Men Unlimited number 1) had scratched Rachel in a fight and she was working for Sinister at the time. When she returned to him, he took her skin samples and showed alot of interest in it. I don't recall if he seemed to know her origins and it seems that plotline was dropped since but, for continuity purposes, he does have her DNA on file...

[Erik Lehnsherr]

In an issue of Excalibur (60-or 70-something, I think) where the team was only Nightcrawler, Shadowcat, and Phoenix (Rachel), and the team had just moved to Muir Isle, Siena Blaze was sent by Sinister I think to kill Moira or was it to obtain a disk from Muir Isle...but didn't count on Excalibur being there. They fought and barely survived her attack. During the attack at one point, Siena Blaze scratched Rachel and when she returned to Sinister's base, she mentioned that in passing. Sinister, mad because she didn't do what she was assigned to do, immediately became happier and grabbed her hand and scraped her fingernails for Rachel's DNA. Talk about desperate! Now since his base(s?) have been destroyed by the X-Men and Gambit at different times, who knows if he still has it. But he did have it once.


Yeah..I remember that but it never made sense why he didn't go back and try to communicate with her. He has always had a way to talk to the Summers' offspring without them trying to kill him for a few minutes. That would of been quite the conversation if it went through.

[ProfessorTen]

grampa beat me to it... ;)

[Daithi]

Yeah..I remember that but it never made sense why he didn't go back and try to communicate with her. He has always had a way to talk to the Summers' offspring without them trying to kill him for a few minutes. That would of been quite the conversation if it went through.

Excalibur #74: Sinister obtains Rachel's dna from Siena Blaze.
Excalibur #75: Rachel is sent into the timetream so Sinister didn't have a chance to talk to her.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Excalibur #74: Sinister obtains Rachel's dna from Siena Blaze.
Excalibur #75: Rachel is sent into the timetream so Sinister didn't have a chance to talk to her.

Yup, you've got that right. In that space of time Rachel went back into the time stream in exchange for Captain Britain - who had become the really crap "Britannic" persona, soon dropped thereafter.

Rachel stayed lost in limbo until returning to Uncanny X-Men the better around a decade later our time.

Sinister may not even know she's back yet.

[cyclops2500]

I think Sinister is afraid she'd kick his butt.

[Loestal]

Sinister's interest in the Grey/Summers DNA combination is for only one thing, creating Cable to destroy Apocalypse later. The DNA match up has to be perfect. A female born from those two does not have the raw power that a male would have. I'm not saying Rachel isn't powerful, but she isn't as strong as what Cable/X-man ever was.

Sinister knows what he wants and needs, and a female offspring of Grey and Summers just doesn't carry what he needs.

[slively]

Where does it suggest that Rachel may be Wolverine's daughter? I had not heard that and I am curious.

[Matt K]

Yup, you've got that right. In that space of time Rachel went back into the time stream in exchange for Captain Britain - who had become the really crap "Britannic" persona, soon dropped thereafter.

Rachel stayed lost in limbo until returning to Uncanny X-Men the better around a decade later our time.

Sinister may not even know she's back yet.

Actually she retuned in Cable during Hienberg's (sp?) run.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Sinister's interest in the Grey/Summers DNA combination is for only one thing, creating Cable to destroy Apocalypse later. The DNA match up has to be perfect. A female born from those two does not have the raw power that a male would have. I'm not saying Rachel isn't powerful, but she isn't as strong as what Cable/X-man ever was.

Sinister knows what he wants and needs, and a female offspring of Grey and Summers just doesn't carry what he needs.

Not necessarily. He has protected Havok before in the past as well and there has never been talk of Alex creating the ultimate mutant offspring like a combo of Jean/Scott.

[Titan76]

Sinister's interest in the Grey/Summers DNA combination is for only one thing, creating Cable to destroy Apocalypse later. The DNA match up has to be perfect. A female born from those two does not have the raw power that a male would have. I'm not saying Rachel isn't powerful, but she isn't as strong as what Cable/X-man ever was.

Sinister knows what he wants and needs, and a female offspring of Grey and Summers just doesn't carry what he needs.
To my knowledge this has never been stated, so I don't know where your gettting that from. In Cable #86-87 before he left to get Rachel back he told Irene that Rachel was infact more powerful then him. Cable has had the techo virus to hold back his raw power and Rachel has her mental blocks, lack of training, and her past(the fact she used her powers to kill or help kill all her friends and family has a big effect on her mentaly) to hold her back. I don't think Sinister cared what sex the child was because either one of them would be very powerful and powerful enough to kill Apocalypse.

Sinister has Rachel's DNA (and I wouldn't be shocked if he had Cable's too) but has yet to use it for some reason. The first part of his plan was to use Scott's and Jean's child to kill Apocalypse but when that happen his other plans have not been reveled.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

BTW, I believe he got a sample of Cable's DNA when he had control of Summers in Inferno.

[jeangreydp]

Ugh if they ever say Rachel is really Logan's daughter I'll vomit on my books and then burn them.

For real.

[Rachel Grey]

I agree that Sinister probably dosn't know she's back. I'd imagine he was pretty pissed when he found out that she got hurled into the future. :p

[riotgear]

Not necessarily. He has protected Havok before in the past as well and there has never been talk of Alex creating the ultimate mutant offspring like a combo of Jean/Scott.

Actually, he has. During Inferno, he was very interested when Alex was with Madelyne Pryor.

[Daithi]

Actually she retuned in Cable during Hienberg's (sp?) run.

Robert Weinberg. Great run on Cable and got shafted by Marvel.

Also in "The End", Sinister apparently wanted to mix the DNA of either Gambit and Cyclops with one of the Grey women. Jean or (sigh) Rachel.

[fishtaco]

That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps because he never knew about her? After all, she isn't from our world.

Maybe it'll be addressed in X-Men: The End.

[Daithi]

That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. Perhaps because he never knew about her? After all, she isn't from our world.

Maybe it'll be addressed in X-Men: The End.

No he did know about her. He confirmed that her DNA was Summers DNA. Then in the "The End" it's no longer Summers DNA but Grey DNA. At least that's my take as he wants to mix dna from Gambit or Scott with either Jean or Rachel. Bad Claremont! Just leave Rachel as the daughter of Scott and Jean!

[Matt K]

Robert Weinberg. Great run on Cable and got shafted by Marvel.

Also in "The End", Sinister apparently wanted to mix the DNA of either Gambit and Cyclops with one of the Grey women. Jean or (sigh) Rachel.

Thank, I was blanking on the name. And that truely was one of the greatest X-runs.

[TimGunn]

Yup, you've got that right. In that space of time Rachel went back into the time stream in exchange for Captain Britain - who had become the really crap "Britannic" persona, soon dropped thereafter.

Rachel stayed lost in limbo until returning to Uncanny X-Men the better around a decade later our time.

Sinister may not even know she's back yet.

After she returned in Cable, she showed up in X-Treme X-Men as the mysterious telepath controlled by Elias Bogan in Prisoner of Fire. After that series ended, she came over to Uncanny.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

After she returned in Cable, she showed up in X-Treme X-Men as the mysterious telepath controlled by Elias Bogan in Prisoner of Fire. After that series ended, she came over to Uncanny.

You see, this is what happens when you become a poor and impoverished student and decide to drop these two books... :D

My bad. Will endeavour to acquire continuity. What issue numbers were these?

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Actually, he has. During Inferno, he was very interested when Alex was with Madelyne Pryor.

But it wasn't his first priority and he didn't want a Alex child to control. He wanted the Jean Grey/Scott combination above all else.

[punisher_ryu]

Maybe it's to do with the theory that Rachel isn't actually Cyclop's daughter, but Wolverine's?
When ARE they going to clear that up anyway?

*rolls eyes*

plz,dont go there.

[punisher_ryu]

Ugh if they ever say Rachel is really Logan's daughter I'll vomit on my books and then burn them.

For real.

i agree with you on that.

[riotgear]

But it wasn't his first priority and he didn't want a Alex child to control. He wanted the Jean Grey/Scott combination above all else.

Correct. But if your second option was suddenly viable, wouldn't you work towards that as well? Sinister is too intelligent to only have one viable option. That was why he created Madelyne in the first place.

[DDM]

Correct. But if your second option was suddenly viable, wouldn't you work towards that as well? Sinister is too intelligent to only have one viable option. That was why he created Madelyne in the first place.

Sinister had planned to kill Jean Grey's parents, but they got to Xavier first before he could hatch his plan. Therefore, Sinister created Madelyne Pryor because he could not get Jean Grey to his orphanage once Professor Xavier got involved with her.

I don't see a point for Sinister to get Rachel Summers too. He wants a pure bloodline, Jean Grey & Scott Summers to combine under his own controls.

[DDM]

No he did know about her. He confirmed that her DNA was Summers DNA. Then in the "The End" it's no longer Summers DNA but Grey DNA. At least that's my take as he wants to mix dna from Gambit or Scott with either Jean or Rachel. Bad Claremont! Just leave Rachel as the daughter of Scott and Jean!

Sinister had been wanting Jean Grey when he tried to kill X-Men & X-Factor during "Inferno" in Uncanny X-Men #243 & X-Factor #39. He wanted Jean Grey alive though.

[DDM]

You see, this is what happens when you become a poor and impoverished student and decide to drop these two books... :D

My bad. Will endeavour to acquire continuity. What issue numbers were these?

Cable #85-86:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/14049250916.86.GIFhttp://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/14049250916.85.GIF

[riotgear]

Sinister had planned to kill Jean Grey's parents, but they got to Xavier first before he could hatch his plan. Therefore, Sinister created Madelyne Pryor because he could not get Jean Grey to his orphanage once Professor Xavier got involved with her.

I don't see a point for Sinister to get Rachel Summers too. He wants a pure bloodline, Jean Grey & Scott Summers to combine under his own controls.

Thanks, DDM. I said Sinister was setting up options. You just explained what his options were. :)

[SUPERMAN PRIME]

who is sinister?marvel forgot one of the best x - villains ! miss him...i hope Jean returns during a sinistert storyline

[DDM]

Thanks, DDM. I said Sinister was setting up options. You just explained what his options were. :)

Sinister said all of this in Uncanny X-Men #241 to explain Madelyne's origin.

[fishtaco]

I think Sinister is afraid she'd kick his butt.He would probably risk his life to learn more about her genetic makeup. :)

Slively: I think it has been hinted more than once, but I can only think of one very, very subtle hint right now. In Uncanny X-Men 384, Tullamore Voge attacked Phoenix (Jean) and Wolverine on the Astral Plane and turned them into hounds briefly. Voge is a slave trader, and he told Jean and Logan that their offspring would have a skyrocketing, extreme price on the slave market. In the backround there are illusionary images of Logan and Jean in...intimate poses. As you may know, Rachel was the best hound. period. Ahab considered her to be his "favorite hound". Her telepathy made her such a superb tracker that Rachel became the prototype for the hound program. Aside from her telepathy, Rachel may have also been the best hound because if Logan is her father, then she may have inherited his animal keen senses, which is a useful ability for tracking, especially familiar scents, since she often led Ahab to her friends and family to be killed by one of his energy harpoons.

EDIT: I just found another hint. In Uncanny X-Men Annual 14, Ahab turned Cyclops (and Sue Richards) into his hounds, to track down Rachel. Cyclops was unable to find her. This suprised Ahab, who always thought that hounds can easily track down their blood relatives. This hint does not neccessarily allude to Wolverine being Rachel's father, though it does hint that Cyclops is not her father.

Currently, it is officially established that Rachel is the daughter of Cyclops and Jean Grey from the Days of Future Past timeline. Whether Chris Claremont (who was the writer who dropped both of these subtle hints) will follow up and retcon his own establishment remains to be seen. In my opinion, I think that this is a good idea. I think it would in a way make Rachel not care about Scott so much, and therefore make her stronger as a character, and less angry about Scott and Emma's Scott and Emma-ness. If this is what happens, then I hope Scott never learns the truth. I want him to remain in the dark about it.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Correct. But if your second option was suddenly viable, wouldn't you work towards that as well? Sinister is too intelligent to only have one viable option. That was why he created Madelyne in the first place.

Sure Sinister has failsafes but his research has never known any indications of a offspring of Havok's being half as powerful as a Nate Grey, Cable, Stryfe, or Proteus. Why waste the effort and time on such a gamble? The payoff wouldn't be there.

[Uncle Nobs]

WHOA, WHOA, WHOA! When the heck did something like this start up? That would be a DISGUSTING retcon. How would Rachel be what she is without being a Summers? Where does it suggest that Rachel may be Wolverine's daughter? I had not heard that and I am curious. Ugh if they ever say Rachel is really Logan's daughter I'll vomit on my books and then burn them. For real. *rolls eyes*plz,dont go there.
Sorry guys. Claremont has been hinting at it (along with the Phoenix immaculate conception theory) since day one. All in the subtext.

Don't worry. It's not a retcon.

Fishtaco did a great job of citing some examples (especially that Uncanny Annual #14 one!). Many other hints were in letters pages and interviews.

I would also throw in the example of Logan gutting Rachel in Uncanny #207. Logan's teammates saw it as him appointing himself the keeper of the X-Men's conscience. But isn't it a perfect painting of a child walking in her father's footsteps while her father is desperate to prevent her from making the same mistakes he did? Why did Logan respond so strongly to everything Rachel went through, while Cyclops was barely affected? The ol' "Scott's lame" theory doesn't explain enough. Why did one man respond on an instinctive level to Rachel while the other barely noticed her as "the new girl".

But now? Now there's no question.

Most recently, in Uncanny #451, Rachel says about Logan, "I called him 'Old Man', Bishop... because in the best sense of the words... that's what he is to me."

And it laid there cold and dead on the floor, and nobody noticed. Nobody talked about it. Decades of mystery resolved with a single line and not one peep was heard from the fans.

Sorry to hear about your books, Liz. Although I have to wonder why your vomit-soaked comics would still be flammable. That's a lot of booze, lady.

[Rachel Grey]

Most recently, in Uncanny #451, Rachel says about Logan, "I called him 'Old Man', Bishop... because in the best sense of the words... that's what he is to me."

And it laid there cold and dead on the floor, and nobody noticed. Nobody talked about it. Decades of mystery resolved with a single line and not one peep was heard from the fans.

Actually I think that's another step in Operation: Guilttrip.

[Uncle Nobs]

Wait. What?

RG, you think that it's a simple case of Rachel calling him old, with no intention at all of using the common phrase 'old man' to mean precisely what it has traditionally meant--father? That Claremont typed those words, intentionally repeating the phrase 'old man' and actually clarifying it as "in the best sense of the words", and still he had no intention whatsoever of Rachel revealing that Logan's her father? That Claremont typed this, Davis drew a scene around it, Eliopoulos lettered it, the editor skimmed through it and submitted it for publication... And somehow nobody bothered to say, "Y'know, this could be interpreted as Rachel revealing Logan as her father. Maybe we want to change the wording on this and just have her call him an old fart."

Or are you saying she only called Logan her father to mess with him? Still rubbing it in that he gutted her? Because I don't see a whole lot of that going on. She seems very cooperative and not at all upset with him. In fact, when she first says 'old man', it seems to carry a measure of respect. She says, "Her mind's locked down, boss. But it ain't easy! Along with the old man's claws and the classic uniform... she's just as much a fighter." It even seems to me that Rachel might feel a bit threatened by a X-23, who appears in every way to be Logan's daughter (even though we know she's not).

[Rachel Grey]

No. IMHO it's a combination of guilttripping Scott and honouring Logan.

[Daithi]

I think it would in a way make Rachel not care about Scott so much, and therefore make her stronger as a character, and less angry about Scott and Emma's Scott and Emma-ness.

I think if anything is going to make Rachel stronger it's to get off her Jean worship. Claremont hasn't had Rachel talk to Scott since the Asgard Wars.

Also Mr Sinister said that Rachel's DNA was Summers. So it's going to take a hell of a retcon to change that. Though considering Rachel dismissed her alternate versions with knowledge that she shouldn't have I don't have much hope.

[DDM]

Wait. What?

RG, you think that it's a simple case of Rachel calling him old, with no intention at all of using the common phrase 'old man' to mean precisely what it has traditionally meant--father? That Claremont typed those words, intentionally repeating the phrase 'old man' and actually clarifying it as "in the best sense of the words", and still he had no intention whatsoever of Rachel revealing that Logan's her father? That Claremont typed this, Davis drew a scene around it, Eliopoulos lettered it, the editor skimmed through it and submitted it for publication... And somehow nobody bothered to say, "Y'know, this could be interpreted as Rachel revealing Logan as her father. Maybe we want to change the wording on this and just have her call him an old fart."

Or are you saying she only called Logan her father to mess with him? Still rubbing it in that he gutted her? Because I don't see a whole lot of that going on. She seems very cooperative and not at all upset with him. In fact, when she first says 'old man', it seems to carry a measure of respect. She says, "Her mind's locked down, boss. But it ain't easy! Along with the old man's claws and the classic uniform... she's just as much a fighter." It even seems to me that Rachel might feel a bit threatened by a X-23, who appears in every way to be Logan's daughter (even though we know she's not).


Rachel had a temporary psychic rapport with Logan when she used her powers as Phoenix to supercharge Wolverine's healing factor as she clearly states in Uncanny X-Men #207; as a result, Rachel forged a strong telepathic link with Logan. Wolverine kills Rachel or vice versa in their dreams because Rachel did not ask for Logan's permission. I don't think Claremont never intended for Wolverine to be Rachel's father. It's just wishful thinking among some fans.

Hopefully, Claremont will pick up the story that Rachel is the result of the Phoenix Force & Jean Grey.

[Uncle Nobs]

No. IMHO it's a combination of guilttripping Scott and honouring Logan.
Ah. Right. Gotcha. Like she's saying, "Logan's been more of a father to me than my real dad." Maybe. I can see that, but it really read differently to me. The way she reiterated it and broke it down... It just really sounds like Claremont was making a deliberate point.

By the way, I just re-read my response to you last night, and it sounded rreeeally pissy. Sorry, RG. Not my intention. Grouchy/sleepy. Thanks for not biting my head off (which I would have deserved).

Rachel had a temporary psychic rapport with Logan when she used her powers as Phoenix to supercharge Wolverine's healing factor as she clearly states in Uncanny X-Men #207; as a result, Rachel forged a strong telepathic link with Logan. Wolverine kills Rachel or vice versa in their dreams because Rachel did not ask for Logan's permission. I don't think Claremont never intended for Wolverine to be Rachel's father. It's just wishful thinking among some fans.

Hopefully, Claremont will pick up the story that Rachel is the result of the Phoenix Force & Jean Grey.
DDM, that sounds like you're completely ignoring Claremont's revelation in Uncanny #451 just so you can believe the origin you prefer. I mean, hang onto any preferences you want, man, but you can't argue canon. It's in print in an in-continuity 616 book, therefore it's canon. End of story. Either Rachel knows Logan's her bio-dad, or for some reason she believes he is. Case closed (for now).

[Daithi]

DDM, that sounds like you're completely ignoring Claremont's revelation in Uncanny #451 just so you can believe the origin you prefer. I mean, hang onto any preferences you want, man, but you can't argue canon. It's in print in an in-continuity 616 book, therefore it's canon. End of story. Either Rachel knows Logan's her bio-dad, or for some reason she believes he is. Case closed (for now).

Except it can't be because Mr Sinister found her DNA to be Summers. The Phoenix Force also said that Rachel is the daughter of Scott. Also Claremont posted on Comix X-Fan that in his interpertation of Rachel, Logan ain't her father.

[fishtaco]

Many other hints were in letters pages and interviews. Seriously? Which issues?

I would also throw in the example of Logan gutting Rachel in Uncanny #207. Logan's teammates saw it as him appointing himself the keeper of the X-Men's conscience. But isn't it a perfect painting of a child walking in her father's footsteps while her father is desperate to prevent her from making the same mistakes he did? Why did Logan respond so strongly to everything Rachel went through, while Cyclops was barely affected? The ol' "Scott's lame" theory doesn't explain enough. Why did one man respond on an instinctive level to Rachel while the other barely noticed her as "the new girl". I was going to mention this too, but I didn't know how to word it. Thanks for clarifying it.

Most recently, in Uncanny #451, Rachel says about Logan, "I called him 'Old Man', Bishop... because in the best sense of the words... that's what he is to me."This I should have noticed right off the bat. I'm suprised I didn't catch that line. Thanks for pointing it out. Hopefully, Claremont will pick up the story that Rachel is the result of the Phoenix Force & Jean Grey.Exactly where was this hinted? It sounds interesting, but where exactly did Claremont (or another writer) drop hints of it?Except it can't be because Mr Sinister found her DNA to be Summers.Maybe Wolverine is the 3rd Summers Brother! :D :D

[Black Hole]

Wait. What?

RG, you think that it's a simple case of Rachel calling him old, with no intention at all of using the common phrase 'old man' to mean precisely what it has traditionally meant--father? That Claremont typed those words, intentionally repeating the phrase 'old man' and actually clarifying it as "in the best sense of the words", and still he had no intention whatsoever of Rachel revealing that Logan's her father? That Claremont typed this, Davis drew a scene around it, Eliopoulos lettered it, the editor skimmed through it and submitted it for publication... And somehow nobody bothered to say, "Y'know, this could be interpreted as Rachel revealing Logan as her father. Maybe we want to change the wording on this and just have her call him an old fart."

Or are you saying she only called Logan her father to mess with him? Still rubbing it in that he gutted her? Because I don't see a whole lot of that going on. She seems very cooperative and not at all upset with him. In fact, when she first says 'old man', it seems to carry a measure of respect. She says, "Her mind's locked down, boss. But it ain't easy! Along with the old man's claws and the classic uniform... she's just as much a fighter." It even seems to me that Rachel might feel a bit threatened by a X-23, who appears in every way to be Logan's daughter (even though we know she's not).

Hey Nobs,

I think what everyone is failing to realize here is that she called him 'old man' in the sense that he was her older sugar-daddy/boyfriend and he was in fact, having some good old-fashioned dirty doggy sex with Rachel. That's what she meant about "the best sense of the words".

Younger women are always attracted to older, squat, hairy, violent, beer-swilling, cigar-chomping guys like Logan.

Anyway, another "old man" connotation. If you ever saw Star trek: Deep Space Nine, Commader/Captain Sisko routinely referred to his friend Jadzea (spelling?) Dax as "old man", because of the deep mentoring/friendship bond he had with the symbiote that she (Jadzea) carried within her.

It could also easily mean this. I'll admit that I'm personally dead-set against Logan being Rachel's father, but I think there are other explanations.

[riotgear]

I had a thought yesterday (I do have them from time to time). Even though the current editors don't want to admit to Adam-X as the third Summers brother (technically, he would not be, I suppose, since his mother (Katherine Summers) is only a Summers by marriage), there is the opportunity for more than just one additional brother. Remember, Sinister only said "brothers", which means 2 or more. It is possible for there to be a fourth brother, however unlikely.

[Christopher O]

DDM, that sounds like you're completely ignoring Claremont's revelation in Uncanny #451 just so you can believe the origin you prefer. I mean, hang onto any preferences you want, man, but you can't argue canon. It's in print in an in-continuity 616 book, therefore it's canon. End of story. Either Rachel knows Logan's her bio-dad, or for some reason she believes he is. Case closed (for now).
Wait, at the beginning of your post, you admitted the possibility that your interpretation of this could be wrong, and then you conclude your post by completely ignoring that concession? It isn't case closed. In fact, I'd say you probably did misinterpret the exchange, as "the best sense" in this instance is likely referring to their relationship and not genetics.

[DDM]

Exactly where was this hinted? It sounds interesting, but where exactly did Claremont (or another writer) drop hints of it?Maybe Wolverine is the 3rd Summers Brother! :D :D

Chris Claremont hinted Phoenix & Jean Grey conceived Rachel Summers in Excalibur #5 when Moira McaTaggert mentioned she was concerned about the bio-scans from Rachel Summers, Phoenix. Cyclops could not sense his "daughter" Rachel in Uncanny X-Men Annual #14 when Ahab transformed him into a Hound.

From these clues, many fans apparently misinterpreted the clues that Wolverine is Rachel's father.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Sorry guys. Claremont has been hinting at it (along with the Phoenix immaculate conception theory) since day one. All in the subtext.

Don't worry. It's not a retcon.

Fishtaco did a great job of citing some examples (especially that Uncanny Annual #14 one!). Many other hints were in letters pages and interviews.

I would also throw in the example of Logan gutting Rachel in Uncanny #207. Logan's teammates saw it as him appointing himself the keeper of the X-Men's conscience. But isn't it a perfect painting of a child walking in her father's footsteps while her father is desperate to prevent her from making the same mistakes he did? Why did Logan respond so strongly to everything Rachel went through, while Cyclops was barely affected? The ol' "Scott's lame" theory doesn't explain enough. Why did one man respond on an instinctive level to Rachel while the other barely noticed her as "the new girl".

But now? Now there's no question.

Most recently, in Uncanny #451, Rachel says about Logan, "I called him 'Old Man', Bishop... because in the best sense of the words... that's what he is to me."

And it laid there cold and dead on the floor, and nobody noticed. Nobody talked about it. Decades of mystery resolved with a single line and not one peep was heard from the fans.

Sorry to hear about your books, Liz. Although I have to wonder why your vomit-soaked comics would still be flammable. That's a lot of booze, lady.

Do you understand how horrible it would be if Mother Askani was Wolverine's daughter? I don't even want to think of the implications. I would throw the book that states that as truth in the trash and never acknowledge the situation again But luckily, it's not canon and Rachel is a Summers. Now..if we could just get her into one of Sinister's custom labs, things would be perfect. :D

[Rachel Grey]

Ah. Right. Gotcha. Like she's saying, "Logan's been more of a father to me than my real dad." Maybe. I can see that, but it really read differently to me. The way she reiterated it and broke it down... It just really sounds like Claremont was making a deliberate point.

By the way, I just re-read my response to you last night, and it sounded rreeeally pissy. Sorry, RG. Not my intention. Grouchy/sleepy. Thanks for not biting my head off (which I would have deserved).

Hey, it's cool. You should see how grouchy I get when I'm sleepy :D

[tunasammiches]

In the recent Wolverine issue, when he killed Northstar, he was thinking all perverted thoughts when he was dragging Rachel by the hair and trying to co-erce her into using Cerebro. He was smelling her scent and her sweat, fanticizing about how much she looked like her mom, and pretty much getting turned on at the thought of her squirming in fear.

I think the Logan-as-Rachel's-Dad theory is interesting, but I don't think the writers would've written that scene if it was to be that they were meant to be related.

[fishtaco]

Chris Claremont hinted Phoenix & Jean Grey conceived Rachel Summers in Excalibur #5 when Moira McaTaggert mentioned she was concerned about the bio-scans from Rachel Summers, Phoenix. Cyclops could not sense his "daughter" Rachel in Uncanny X-Men Annual #14 when Ahab transformed him into a Hound.

From these clues, many fans apparently misinterpreted the clues that Wolverine is Rachel's father.How does that allude to Rachel being the daughter of Jean and Phoenix? All that hints at is that Cyclops is not her father.

[Titan76]

Chris Claremont hinted Phoenix & Jean Grey conceived Rachel Summers in Excalibur #5 when Moira McaTaggert mentioned she was concerned about the bio-scans from Rachel Summers, Phoenix. Cyclops could not sense his "daughter" Rachel in Uncanny X-Men Annual #14 when Ahab transformed him into a Hound.
And how are these clues to Rachel being the daughter of Jean and the Phoenix? Maybe Rachel bio-scans were higher then Moira thought they were is because a child from Jean and Scott would be a very powerful mutant that more then likely would be even more powerful then Jean is.

Also I don't understand how Scott would even be able to sense Rachel because she really isn't his daughter to began with because she is from a different reality like how Nate Grey was. She is the daughter from a Scott Summers in a different reality so that might be why 616 Scott wasn't able to sense her. Plus Scott is not a telepath and only had a psychic bond with Jean not Rachel as far as I know. So with no telepathy or psychic bond how would he be able to sense her?

[DDM]

How does that allude to Rachel being the daughter of Jean and Phoenix? All that hints at is that Cyclops is not her father.

It was the beginning sub-plot for Phoenix. Claremont never did anything with the story more than likely due to editorial reasons.

[Christopher O]

To be fair to DDM, Chris Claremont did state several years back on X-Fan that he planned for Rachel to be the offspring of Jean and the Phoenix, and now that he's in control of the character again, it may very well happen.

[Daithi]

To be fair to DDM, Chris Claremont did state several years back on X-Fan that he planned for Rachel to be the offspring of Jean and the Phoenix, and now that he's in control of the character again, it may very well happen.

Yes he did. Unfortunately as Chris left Marvel, that subplot was dropped and Rachel was the daughter of Scott and Jean. Considering that CC has retconned the alternate Rachel's away, I suspect he'll retcon Scott as her father very soon.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

I think it's best to keep her the child of Scott. What would be the significance of Rachel being the daughter of the Phoenix and Jean?

[DDM]

I think it's best to keep her the child of Scott. What would be the significance of Rachel being the daughter of the Phoenix and Jean?

Claremont was writing Rachel Summers as the one true Phoenix. Her being the Immaculate Conception of Jean Grey & the Phoenix Force would reinforce this idea further. Apparently, Rachel also has many genetic anomolies as well as Moira MacTaggert discovered when she perfomed tests on Excalibur.

Since Rachel did not have any alternate selves--only past incarnations of herself--within the White Hot Room, this too will lead that Rachel Summers is the offspring of Jean Grey & Phoenix...

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Is that a certainty or are you just making your best guess? Has Claremont went on record recently saying that Rachel will officialy be the child of Jean and the entity?

[DDM]

Is that a certainty or are you just making your best guess? Has Claremont went on record recently saying that Rachel will officialy be the child of Jean and the entity?

Yes, Chris Claremont said he wanted Rachel to be the child of Jean Grey, the original Phoenix in her universe, & the Phoenix Force itself on X-Fan years ago. Reread Deus ex Chris' post.

Given the clues about Rachel in Uncanny X-Men, I would say Chris Claremont is going with his original idea about Rachel Summers.

[Titan76]

I don't think Marvel will let Claremont make Rachel the daughter of Jean and the Phoenix, hell they wouldn't allow Adam X to be the 3rd Summers brother. The Phoenix station is confusing enough for both old readers and new readers this would just make it more confusing. Because if you look at what Morrison tried to say in his run about Jean and the Phoenix he was trying to make it out to be a part of her gentic mutantion not some seperate force so it would sound dumb to me if Jean's powers got her pregnant. I hope they just keep Rachel the daughter of Scott and Jean.

[Christopher O]

I don't think Marvel will let Claremont make Rachel the daughter of Jean and the Phoenix, hell they wouldn't allow Adam X to be the 3rd Summers brother. The Phoenix station is confusing enough for both old readers and new readers this would just make it more confusing. Because if you look at what Morrison tried to say in his run about Jean and the Phoenix he was trying to make it out to be a part of her gentic mutantion not some seperate force so it would sound dumb to me if Jean's powers got her pregnant. I hope they just keep Rachel the daughter of Scott and Jean.
If Jean can heal a timeline by cutting out an infection, eat a star, and resurrect herself, then I don't see why she shouldn't be able to reproduce asexually. In fact, I'd say that's more grounded than any of the other three feats I listed.

[Rachel Grey]

Just so long as Chris dosn't mention Midichlorians :p

[Titan76]

If Jean can heal a timeline by cutting out an infection, eat a star, and resurrect herself, then I don't see why she shouldn't be able to reproduce asexually. In fact, I'd say that's more grounded than any of the other three feats I listed.
I didn't say she couldn't do it, I'm saying it would sound stuiped to me if Marvel made that canon. The Summers/Grey family tree has enough confusion, drama, and stuiped things happening already, lets keep something simple for once, just keep Rachel the daughter of Jean and Scott from a different reality. There something simple and easy to understand.

[Tobias March]

The Summers/Grey family tree has enough confusion, drama, and stuiped things happening already, lets keep something simple for once, just keep Rachel the daughter of Jean and Scott from a different reality. There something simple and easy to understand.


And that folks is keeping things simple in the X-verse :p

Back to Sinister and Rachel - while it may seem odd the Summers/Sinister storyline and Jean Grey/Rachel/Phoenix storylines are only tangentially related. Once again the writers are probably trying to keep things simple...specially if yes, we discover that Jean and Rachel were genetically predisposed to be hosts for the Phoenix. One quick ramp up of clones and Sinister could have a little pride of galactic superbeings. Yikes.

[Titan76]

And that folks is keeping things simple in the X-verse :p
You could say that again when we are talking about the Summers/Grey bloodline. ;)

[Uncle Nobs]

Except it can't be because Mr Sinister found her DNA to be Summers. The Phoenix Force also said that Rachel is the daughter of Scott. Also Claremont posted on Comix X-Fan that in his interpertation of Rachel, Logan ain't her father.
Do you have a link? I'm not doubting you, but I would like to see what he has to say. It's weird that he would even include the "old man" line if he was dead-set against Logan as her dad. Maybe it's true what they say--maybe Claremont is just sloppy these days.

[Uncle Nobs]

Many other hints were in letters pages and interviews (regarding Logan as Rachel's dad or Jean immaculately conceiving Rachel).
Seriously? Which issues?
Oy. Can't even begin to remember. I just know it was a big rumor long before fans had the internet to share theories, back when we only had letters pages and interview articles to share theories.

[Uncle Nobs]

Wait, at the beginning of your post, you admitted the possibility that your interpretation of this could be wrong, and then you conclude your post by completely ignoring that concession? It isn't case closed. In fact, I'd say you probably did misinterpret the exchange, as "the best sense" in this instance is likely referring to their relationship and not genetics.
It's true. I did concede that she might have meant "you're more of a father to me than my real dad", but I also said that it really didn't seem to be what Claremont meant. It really seemed like Claremont was making a point of it, reiterating it several times the way he did.

So it's not "case closed". Certainly, any writer can reexamine Rachel's words so that they mean something else, or they can throw in a new twist to change the whole situation. But--to me, anyway--it certainly does look like Claremont was trying to resolve the mystery, putting his own "case closed" stamp on it.

I'd definitely like to see any other info about Claremont's intentions on this topic, though. I'm open.

[Uncle Nobs]

In the recent Wolverine issue, when he killed Northstar, he was thinking all perverted thoughts when he was dragging Rachel by the hair and trying to co-erce her into using Cerebro. He was smelling her scent and her sweat, fanticizing about how much she looked like her mom, and pretty much getting turned on at the thought of her squirming in fear.

I think the Logan-as-Rachel's-Dad theory is interesting, but I don't think the writers would've written that scene if it was to be that they were meant to be related.
Keep in mind that's Mark Millar. He really wouldn't care what other writers' intentions were for these characters. He just writes what he wants to write, and editors only seem to step in if it's completely contradictory to established canon.

That's not a slam against Millar (much). I think we can all agree that he's a writer who takes on the task of writing established characters because they interest him for the moment, not because of his deep reverence for the characters' 30-to-40 year history or his great respect for the previous writers and their far-reaching plans for the characters.

[Uncle Nobs]

Claremont was writing Rachel Summers as the one true Phoenix. Her being the Immaculate Conception of Jean Grey & the Phoenix Force would reinforce this idea further. Apparently, Rachel also has many genetic anomolies as well as Moira MacTaggert discovered when she perfomed tests on Excalibur.

Since Rachel did not have any alternate selves--only past incarnations of herself--within the White Hot Room, this too will lead that Rachel Summers is the offspring of Jean Grey & Phoenix...
I do like this idea. Rachel would be unique in the multiverse. The Phoenix Force gave itself a child in only one reality. This would put an enormous burden on her as her powers increase.

I understand people's apprehensions about Logan as her father. The big problem here is that most of Logan's offspring (in alternate timelines, futures, etc.) have been completely retarded knock-offs that spew cliched growls, sport the typical fiery temper, and of course have claws so we can't possibly miss the connection. :rolleyes:

I still think that Logan's kid doesn't have to be an idiotic knock-off. He/she just has to be written well.

So I am in support of the immaculate conception theory for Rachel. It just seems to me like Claremont was recently trying to go a different direction.




There is a way to resolve all the inconsistencies and mysteries:

Reveal the night that the PF conceived Rachel. As Jean slept and dreamed of her future, the PF made a choice. It would be reborn yet again. It would give new form to its love for Jean. So in order to impregnate Jean, it would need to replicate male genetic material. But male genetic material is completely different from one male to the next. So the PF patterned the material on the two men whom, through Jean, it had loved: Scott & Logan. The PF creates its own male DNA, chromosomes, etc. that are essentially a synthesis of Scott & Logan.

We still get Rachel as a completely unique, immaculately conceived entity.

We still get Rachel with Summers DNA--with Scott as her father, both biologically and historically.

We still get Logan as the mystery element in her--maybe the part of her that exacerbates the destructive side of the PF, maybe the reason why she was the best hound, and maybe the reason why Logan has always responded to her, looked out for her, and gone so far (too far?) in protecting her from herself.

[fishtaco]

I think it's best to keep her the child of Scott. What would be the significance of Rachel being the daughter of the Phoenix and Jean?If Rachel learns her true parentage (assuming it's Jean and Phoenix), then she may be more independent. What I mean is that she might stop trying to earn Cyclops's respect, and she might altogether stop beating herself up over Scott's relationship with the White Queen. She would kind of just blow him off. Scott thus far has shown not to really care, until recently in X-Men Unlimited (2nd Series) 11, where he sent Havok to talk to her and try to get her to sympathize with him and understand his choices involving Jean and Emma. Keep in mind that's Mark Millar. He really wouldn't care what other writers' intentions were for these characters. He just writes what he wants to write, and editors only seem to step in if it's completely contradictory to established canon. I wouldn't say that. Before writing Enemy of The State, Mark asked Chris Claremont if it was okay if he did that story. In 1991, Chris Claremont wrote the Dark Wolverine Saga, but unfortunately it was nixed by The Evil One (Bob Harras). Enemy of The State was almost the same as what Claremont had in mind. Claremont's response was "Great minds think alike". I think Mark cares about others' plots, to an extent, atleast.

[Uncle Nobs]

...Enemy of The State was almost the same as what Claremont had in mind. Claremont's response was "Great minds think alike"...
I really liked Claremont better when he wanted control over the X-universe instead of shrugging off anything that steps on his toes. I know he's all mellowed out now, accepting that he can only tell his stories in his books and the rest of the X-universe is beyond his control. But still... There's something to be said for that guy we knew who had that meticulously crafted plan that he was slowly, carefully revealing and had no patience for anyone messing with it.

[jarrod]

I think it's best to keep her the child of Scott. What would be the significance of Rachel being the daughter of the Phoenix and Jean?
It's a take on the holy trinity. In this case, Rachel = Jesus.

[Rachel Grey]

It's a take on the holy trinity. In this case, Rachel = Jesus.

Cable is going to be so jealous :p

[punisher_ryu]

Except it can't be because Mr Sinister found her DNA to be Summers. The Phoenix Force also said that Rachel is the daughter of Scott. Also Claremont posted on Comix X-Fan that in his interpertation of Rachel, Logan ain't her father.

PWNAGE!!!!!

[punisher_ryu]

If Rachel learns her true parentage (assuming it's Jean and Phoenix), then she may be more independent. What I mean is that she might stop trying to earn Cyclops's respect, and she might altogether stop beating herself up over Scott's relationship with the White Queen. She would kind of just blow him off. Scott thus far has shown not to really care, until recently in X-Men Unlimited (2nd Series) 11, where he sent Havok to talk to her and try to get her to sympathize with him and understand his choices involving Jean and Emma.

i dont think even scott understands his choices involving jean and emma.all this emma/scott and jean/logan bullshit makes me feel like giving up x-men comics completely.

[punisher_ryu]

It's a take on the holy trinity. In this case, Rachel = Jesus.

A.K.A- BORING!!!!!!

[jarrod]

Cable is going to be so jealous :p
Heh, yeah he does have a sort of messiah complex... maybe he'll build a mystical cult for Rachel this time? :P


A.K.A- BORING!!!!!!
For some maybe... reinterpreting mythologies is really what I love about superhero comics though. It'd certainly make Rachel unique at least... though I'd still want to see her acknowledge Scott as her "father", genetic or not.

[Daithi]

Heh, yeah he does have a sort of messiah complex... maybe he'll build a mystical cult for Rachel this time? :P


Heh. Though in the Askani religion, Rachel is God, Jean and Scott are Mary and Joseph and I forget who Cable is supposed to be :)


For some maybe... reinterpreting mythologies is really what I love about superhero comics though. It'd certainly make Rachel unique at least... though I'd still want to see her acknowledge Scott as her "father", genetic or not.

Damn straight. Rachel was quite prepared to kill Alpha Flight for what she thought they did to Daddy. Regardless of whatever genes she has, Scott is her dad.

[Rachel Grey]

Damn straight. Rachel was quite prepared to kill Alpha Flight for what she thought they did to Daddy. Regardless of whatever genes she has, Scott is her dad.


That I think is the key here. Suppose for the moment it did turn out that Rachel was the child of Jean and the PF, she considers Scott to be her father. That's why she's lashing out at him and Emma (granted more subtley at him than at Emma...) He means something to her and (she hopes) her to him.

[Alpha to Omega]

Cable is going to be so jealous :p

Wonder what he think's of X-Man dieing for our sins.

[Rachel Grey]

Wonder what he think's of X-Man dieing for our sins.

Honestly? I'd like to see what he think of X-Man in general....