We Are Living In the Last Days

[Tommy]

“We are living in the last days.”

I always get really annoyed when ever Christians say that.

When Jesus ascended everyone assumed that the end would come with in a few years. And then later there was a huge flare up around the year 1000 where everyone assumed that the apocalypse was almost upon us. And then again in the 1800 people were selling all their possessions since they so adamantly believed then end was about to come.

Ever since the dawn of Christianity all the way till modern times people believed they were living in the end times. If everyone was wrong for two thousand years why should they be right now?

[Rob H]

It keeps things interesting.

[Mike Smith]

IIRC, whoever says they know exactly when Christ returns are liars if you go by Judeo-Christian faith. I'm quite sure there was a "No man knows the day nor the hour" line somewhere in text.

Apocalyptic teachings and the casting the view of "We are sinners in the hand of an angry God" are common recruitment/pacifying tools as they promote obedience via fear. If one actually believes the hour of judgement is nigh, and is a sinner and Gods wrath is great, why would you want to screw up?

It is not fair to say all pastors/evangilists/street corner prophets do such only to instill compliance and obedience to church/scripture. I've run across parishioners/speakers who seem to sincerely believe that signs foretold in scripture are among us now. This type of faith goes into the area of "faith based empiricism", or looking for signs/evidence to give veracity to religion. As mentioned before, I strongly dislike this approach to religion and feel it has been the proverbial "Achilles Heel" to the church (Christianity/Catholicism) and is corrupting worldwide perception of religion. Whenever Christians try to argue signs as proof of a religion, it brings objectivity from what it should be, faith, to scientific analyzation. These types of acts alone, in my opinion, are the biggest detriment and will be a continual drain to religion, and promote increased secularism in its wake.

[Melissa]

It allows them to continue the fiction that "God will come soon, and then you'll see" whenever anyone points out that they essentially believe the Tooth Fairy's real. No adult wants to have it pointed out to them that they've got an imaginary friend.

Marvellous really, because they can always delude themselves that they'll be proven right 'in the end' when the end in fact never comes.

[Rob H]

To add a little more to the thread. Somebody's bound to be right at some point aren't they? I mean, people want to believe that there's a higher power that has a set agenda as to when they live, die and everything in between.

So I guess my first sentence does hold a little merit. It keeps things interesting at the very least. It keeps people believing that their entire life can be snatched up and thrown in the garbage via fate or destiny at any point. Fear keeps faith good and strong.

[Melissa]

So I guess my first sentence does hold a little merit...
Rob, ALL your sentences have merit. :)

[Trystenn]

“We are living in the last days.”

I always get really annoyed when ever Christians say that.

When Jesus ascended everyone assumed that the end would come with in a few years. And then later there was a huge flare up around the year 1000 where everyone assumed that the apocalypse was almost upon us. And then again in the 1800 people were selling all their possessions since they so adamantly believed then end was about to come.

Ever since the dawn of Christianity all the way till modern times people believed they were living in the end times. If everyone was wrong for two thousand years why should they be right now?
The only clue that we have is in the Bible where it says he will return after the Temple is built, im guessing the whole synagogue in the Middle East where trhe dispute is happening.

Once that is built we have even more guessing to go.

[Ant-Man]

The 2nd comming of Christ according to the "last days" theology and the Holy Bible, will not occur untill Israel becomes a nation again. Israel officially became a nation again on May 14 1948(56 years ago), and according to the gospel of Luke 21:25-39 the generation living during this time in history will not completely die off before Christ returns. So according to scripture, we are indeed living in the "last days" in the yaer 2005.

[Phrozen]

It allows them to continue the fiction that "God will come soon, and then you'll see" whenever anyone points out that they essentially believe the Tooth Fairy's real. No adult wants to have it pointed out to them that they've got an imaginary friend.

Marvellous really, because they can always delude themselves that they'll be proven right 'in the end' when the end in fact never comes.

Everybody has a fervant belief in something that others would find comical. It might not be religion but it is something.

[Melissa]

Everybody has a fervant belief in something that others would find comical. It might not be religion but it is something.

Yeah, except for really boring people who have no delusions. They're no fun at all! :D

[Rob H]

Rob, ALL your sentences have merit. :)Awww, I bet you say that to all the loons...!

[Ant-Man]

Fear keeps faith good and strong.

But love makes faith indestructable.

[Noah Johnson]

The problem is the doctrine of premillennial dispensationalism, which gives Left-Behind-reading Christians the excuse not only to act as though there's no future, but to act as though the Sermon on the Mount doesn't apply to them. They claim up and down it's based on a literal reading of the Bible, but in fact it's based on a lot of 19th-century nonsense.

[gary bolt]

The 2nd comming of Christ according to the "last days" theology and the Holy Bible, will not occur untill Israel becomes a nation again. Israel officially became a nation again on May 14 1948(56 years ago), and according to the gospel of Luke 21:25-39 the generation living during this time in history will not completely die off before Christ returns. So according to scripture, we are indeed living in the "last days" in the yaer 2005.

I kind of get a kick out of pre-rapture predictions. Here is a link to an entertaining web site called Rapture Ready.

link (http://www.raptureready.com/rap2.html)

They catalogue and rate political and natural events and add it all up to let us know how close we all are to that moment when good Christians will disappear from the face of the earth while the rest of us suffer for a few short years before burning in Hell for all eternity. I’ve been checking in for over a year from time to time and we are always very close to that glorious event.

Here is the explanation they provide for the index.

The Purpose For This Index

The Rapture Index has two functions: one is to factor together a number of related end time components into a cohesive indicator, and the other is to standardize those components to eliminate the wide variance that currently exists with prophecy reporting.

The Rapture Index is by no means meant to predict the rapture, however, the index is designed to measure the type of activity that could act as a precursor to the rapture.

You could say the Rapture index is a Dow Jones Industrial Average of end time activity, but I think it would be better if you viewed it as prophetic speedometer. The higher the number, the faster we're moving towards the occurrence of pre-tribulation rapture.

Since discovering this web site I look at bad shit happening in the world and say "Well, at least it hastens the rapture!". Clear cut logging – hastens the rapture! Oil depletion - hastens the rapture! Nukes in Iran - hastens the rapture! Global warming - hastens the rapture! 2nd term for Bush - hastens the rapture! Fasten your seatbelt!

[Messchird]

Man has ingenious ways of comforting himself and at the same time, making himself pissing his pants with fear.
All these million years and we've yet to figure our fetish for making ourselves scared, believing stories that promises us disaster when a good person comes...
I don't understand why.

[DarkSoldier]

IIRC, whoever says they know exactly when Christ returns are liars if you go by Judeo-Christian faith.That argument makes Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John liars; they all said, "All these things shall come unto this generation" or some iteration thereof.

I'm quite sure there was a "No man knows the day nor the hour" line somewhere in text.I couldn't find that one; only lines that said the end was coming really soon, sooner than later, or later than sooner.

[Mike Smith]

That argument makes Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John liars; they all said, "All these things shall come unto this generation" or some iteration thereof.

No, it does not. They never said anything about the day or hour, an exact time. Christ gave warning for signs that would make it evident "the end is nigh" but no man can say..."hey, rapture this Saturday, 2 pm, I know for a fact". He/she would be a liar using biblical standards and could even be called a false prophet in some views.

I couldn't find that one; only lines that said the end was coming really soon, sooner than later, or later than sooner.

You must have missed a few...for starters here is one...
Matthew 24:36
But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

IIRC, there are similar statements in Mark and perhaps one of the others.

[jimmyboy]

The only clue that we have is in the Bible where it says he will return after the Temple is built, im guessing the whole synagogue in the Middle East where trhe dispute is happening.

Once that is built we have even more guessing to go.
You've just hit the nail on the head! I've been studying this thing for years, and I believe the rebuilding of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem is the one thing we need to see happen, before anyone can be saying that Messiah's return is very near. Until that happens, it's all, at best, "in the near future".

Actually, more accurately, it's not the rebuilding of the temple we need to watch for. It's the defiling of the temple by the one called the Anti-Christ. Daniel, the Old Testament prophet, calls this event "the abomination that makes desolate". Christ himself was asked the question by his closest followers, and he gave the definitive answer of how things will go, what signs to watch for, and the order of events. Daniel even tells us how many days from this event until Messiah's coming! (Daniel 12) "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." That works out to 1,335 days/365 = 3.66 years. So, from a little over three and half years from this particular event, we'd better look up toward Jerusalem. He said he'd return and stand on the Mount of Olives, just outside the city.

Here's most of the text of Christ's answer to his followers' question:
(Matthew 24:3-31, NASB translation)
"As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you.
For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.
"For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
"At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
"Therefore when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
"But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance.
"So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
"But immediately after the tribulation of those days The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the skywith power and great glory.
"And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

[jimmyboy]

Sure, we don't know the exact hour, but as it says, we have either 1,290 days or 1,335 days (given what the passage in Daniel says) after the "Abomination that makes desolate". The hour? Only God knows that.

[Tommy]

It's the defiling of the temple by the one called the Anti-Christ.
Umm Anti-Christ was a term coined by Nostrodamus and he said there were three of them... it only entered the vernacular in the 1300's.

[mcgaffer]

I think we've had two anti-christs too. I have heard that Napolean was the first and Hitler was the second. There was some confusion that Genghis Khan was one of the anti-christs but his name is actually the scourge of God. (note to Mr. Mather, see i was'nt asleep in all of my theology lessons.........just not very alert).

[Sanagi]

"Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." -- Matthew 23:36

[jimmyboy]

Umm Anti-Christ was a term coined by Nostrodamus and he said there were three of them... it only entered the vernacular in the 1300's.
I mean the one we, today, commonly refer to as "the anti-christ". As in THEE anti-christ, not just an anti-christ. It's a simple term used to describe the one particular person who will defile the temple, and cause people to look to him as a sort of savior, and who will convince people that he's divine, or something along those lines.

[mcgaffer]

Nostradamus named the third anti-christ mabus, but many believe this to be an anagram of the real name.

[darkkeeperjr]

IIRC Many will say he is late or not coming.They will fall asleep in the watch. But he will come as a thief in the night, At a hour which no man knows.

Who among us knows what day or hour the thief is coming to your house?

[Winslow]

The bottom line is that no one knows, but everyone likes to speculate.

The Christian is exhorted to live every day as if Christ could return.

The whole “this generation shall not pass away” – thing – is about the destruction of the temple – and widespread persecution – which did happen in 70 A.D..

“We are living in the last days.”

I always get really annoyed when ever Christians say that.

Why do you get annoyed?

[Sanagi]

The bottom line is that no one knows, but everyone likes to speculate.

The Christian is exhorted to live every day as if Christ could return.

The whole “this generation shall not pass away” – thing – is about the destruction of the temple – and widespread persecution – which did happen in 70 A.D..
Is there some real basis for that or is that someone's interpretation?

[Winslow]

Is there some real basis for that or is that someone's interpretation?

Which part of the quote?

[Sanagi]

Which part of the quote?
The last line.

[Winslow]

The last line.

Some of the events in Matthew 24 had already occurred, others occurred within the generation of the 12 disciples and their generation (the destruction of the Temple and persecuation), and other events have yet to come (Christ's return).

It's a whole mish mash of stuff, when read without all the premillenial dispensationalist stuff attached to it.

You can make a fairly strong argument that "the abomination that causes desolation" occurred during the Greek occupation in 168 B.C. (Go Judah Maccabee! ~ :) There's my seasonal tie in my post). So the reconstruction of the Temple is NOT required for Christ's return.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I believe in a higher power. But you really can't predict when this stuff's gonna go down. Its like me taking a calculater and tellin god: " Ok sucka...multiply and dive the square root of 4 ! "

Odds are before I even touch the calculator he's already got the number down and with a booming voice: " What next...you wanna see me make a tree ? You people are really foolish to think just because I let you have the internet and computers your smarter than me ! "

Theres a lot to really take into account. You have lots of situations like the Bible and what were seeing now. If anyone really says " I know when its gonna happen and for $ 24.95 I'll detail in my book The End Times for you ! " thier lying and trying to make a profit.

[Rabid Trekkie]

“We are living in the last days.”

I always get really annoyed when ever Christians say that.

When Jesus ascended everyone assumed that the end would come with in a few years. And then later there was a huge flare up around the year 1000 where everyone assumed that the apocalypse was almost upon us. And then again in the 1800 people were selling all their possessions since they so adamantly believed then end was about to come.

Ever since the dawn of Christianity all the way till modern times people believed they were living in the end times. If everyone was wrong for two thousand years why should they be right now?

You ever read in one of the Douglas Adams books (can't remember which one at the moment) where they are all waiting to watch the end of the universe and all of a sudden Jesus comes in at the last minute talking about how he lost track of time or something? That is pretty much how Christians (or at least my church) view it, well except take it out of a joke context. One place in the Bible it talks about how a day is like a thousand years to God and a thousand years like a day, when dealing with an infinite being soon becomes a rather relative term.

And that 1800's thing was actually in the year 1844, it's what pretty much started my church. A guy by the name of William Miller got so wrapped up in trying to figure out when Christ would return he forgot the whole "No man knows the day or the hour." and missed what the prophecy he was looking at was actually talking about.

As for why people think it will be around now, Jesus describes what a lot of things are going to be like with nations going to war, constant rumors of war, huge disasters, weather acts all weird, disease that threatens entire areas, etc.
Going by that definition take a look at what's going on around the world. America is at war on two fronts and a whole lot of other countries are at war with some body, not to mention the news loves to circulate rumors of war with N. Korea or Iran or somewhere else. That tidal wave sure was a huge disaster. It snowed in Houston last year, if that's not weird weather (but also the coolest thing I've seen) then I don't know what is. And lets see what people are saying about epidemics, SARS, Avian Bird Flu, I heard a doctor on some show talking about how were due for a recurrence of the strain of influenza that nearly turned New York City into a ghost town and swept through America and we still don't have any way to fight that thing.

Yeah, that's why you get people talking about how the time is running out. Of course if I'm remembering correctly after Jesus mentions all that stuff he then says something like, "but the time is not yet". Which means to me that all that stuff is just a precursor to what comes next, not all that fun. Of course my church doesn't go in for the rapture so all the really bad stuff happens before Christ comes, which means if I'm alive at the time I get to go through all the same crap everyone else does.

Why should they be right now? Well they may not be. I mean my church is one of the youngest Christian denominations and throughout its whole history its said "soon" and that's been since the late 1800's. Of course like I said before we're dealing with a being who doesn't see time as we do, which means the really bad tribulation stuff could start tomorrow (it won't, I got a deal with God that he has to let me see Serenity and The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe first) or two thousand years from now. One clue my church has though is that when everyone around the world has had the chance to become a follower of Christ then the end will come. So it could happen soon, or there could be a huge depression and missionaries can't work any more and so the work gets stopped for three hundred years or something. Of course to God that's still soon.

[Rabid Trekkie]

I believe in a higher power. But you really can't predict when this stuff's gonna go down. Its like me taking a calculater and tellin god: " Ok sucka...multiply and dive the square root of 4 ! "

Odds are before I even touch the calculator he's already got the number down and with a booming voice: " What next...you wanna see me make a tree ? You people are really foolish to think just because I let you have the internet and computers your smarter than me ! "

Theres a lot to really take into account. You have lots of situations like the Bible and what were seeing now. If anyone really says " I know when its gonna happen and for $ 24.95 I'll detail in my book The End Times for you ! " thier lying and trying to make a profit.

I always like to think everytime someone gives out a date he moves it back a few years and yells out "SUCKER!!!" and all the angels get a good chuckle.

[Paradox]

mcgaffer throws out:

Nostradamus named the third anti-christ mabus, but many believe this to be an anagram of the real name.

Nostradamus is pretty easy to dismiss. Most of his stuff could just as easily be interpretted as political commentary on his time and Revelationist ravings. As a source, Occam's Razor pretty much eliminates him.

[Noah Johnson]

For a good breakdown on the moral bankruptcy of premillennial dispensationalism, and the literary awfulness of the books that promote it, here's a series of articles on one of my favorite blogs:

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/left_behind/index.html

[Winslow]

For a good breakdown on the moral bankruptcy of premillennial dispensationalism, and the literary awfulness of the books that promote it, here's a series of articles on one of my favorite blogs:

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/left_behind/index.html

The "escape from suffering" that premillenial dispensationalism advocates is certainly troubling, and I would add unbiblical, and has nothing to do with historic Christainity (suffering is seen as a means to strengthen faith).

But the author of the link comes across as "grinding an axe." His tone wasn't helpful to me at all.

[YoursTruly]

“We are living in the last days.”

I always get really annoyed when ever Christians say that.

When Jesus ascended everyone assumed that the end would come with in a few years. And then later there was a huge flare up around the year 1000 where everyone assumed that the apocalypse was almost upon us. And then again in the 1800 people were selling all their possessions since they so adamantly believed then end was about to come.

Ever since the dawn of Christianity all the way till modern times people believed they were living in the end times. If everyone was wrong for two thousand years why should they be right now?

Somewhere in the bible it says the world will stand a thousand years but not thousands. I've never found that in the bible but super religious people I know claim it is.

What gets me is people who claim that the weather changes and wars are signs of the seals being broken. If that's so then those seals have been broken for... well forever. Heck, in history class we learned all about how war and murder has been goin on since the dawn of man. I have a picture of my 54 year old mother at age 13 playing in the snow in the middle of July in South Carolina. How's that for weird weather?

If people would just take the time to delve into the past they'd realize that nothing that goes on today is new. The weather has always fluctuated(sp?), people have always been killing eachother (there's just more people to kill now), there've always been earthquakes, hurricanes, tornados... you get my point.

[Ant-Man]

the reconstruction of the Temple is NOT required for Christ's return.

This is true. The reconstruction of the temple should happen soon though. They already have all the materials constructed to raise the temple again, and the San Hedron council has just been brought back after 1000's of years without Israel having one. The reconstruction of the temple has significance in the orthodox Christian beliefs, because the Anti-Christ who comes from the new Roman empire(unified Europe) will seat himself on the throne of the temple after the rapture of the church has taken place years before, and the Anti-Christ will proclaim himself to be God and the messiah before all the nations, to which the Jews will see as total herrasy(after all a Roman can not be the Jewish messiah). Then the scales from their eyes will be removed to where they now see that Christ was the messiah all along.

[Charles RB]

The 2nd comming of Christ according to the "last days" theology and the Holy Bible, will not occur untill Israel becomes a nation again. Israel officially became a nation again on May 14 1948(56 years ago)

Now there's an interesting argument against there being a state of Israel- its existence will cause the apocalypse.

[BlairH]

“We are living in the last days.”

I always get really annoyed when ever Christians say that.


I get annoyed when anybody says it. Including the doom and gloom folks that say:

"Bush will be the end of the world!"
"Bird flu will kill us all!"
"Global warming will kill us all"
"Cthulu is coming"
etc

[YoursTruly]

"Cthulu is coming"
etc

LOL! I've never heard that one but man would I get a kick outta it if I did. :D

[The Mirrorball Man]

the new Roman empire (unified Europe)
Whoah. Where did that come from?

[jimmyboy]

the reconstruction of the Temple is NOT required for Christ's return.

When kept in the context of what Christ has said, then yes it is required. It's part of the order of events that happen which lead to his return, which he compares to flowers and fruit blooming. When you see this happening, you know summer is near, etc. In the same context, for example, the gospel being preached across the globe is one of those events, and that had not happened by the time the temple was destroyed in 70AD.
The "escape from suffering" that premillenial dispensationalism advocates is certainly troubling, and I would add unbiblical, and has nothing to do with historic Christainity (suffering is seen as a means to strengthen faith).
Agreed.

I would change that to pre-tribulational dispensationalism. All the stuff that's been described in Matthew 24 and 25 has either already happened, or will happen before the millenium of peace.

[Ant-Man]

Whoah. Where did that come from?

Ever hear of the Euro Dollar, the new unified European currency that came out in 1999?

[The Mirrorball Man]

Ever hear of the Euro Dollar, the new unified European currency that came out in 1999?
I've heard of the Euro, yes, but it's not mentioned in my Bible.

[BlairH]

I've heard of the Euro, yes, but it's not mentioned in my Bible.

And the LORD said unto Blair "let it be known that when the one currency has been adopted in all the kingdoms of Europe, the ending will begin, and you must prepare men and arms to ready my coming."

Blair replied "I'm one step ahead of you"

[The Mirrorball Man]

And the LORD said unto Blair "let it be known that when the one currency has been adopted in all the kingdoms of Europe, the ending will begin, and you must prepare men and arms to ready my coming."

Blair replied "I'm one step ahead of you"
Let me guess: it's from the Book of Armaments, right?

[BlairH]

Let me guess: it's from the Book of Armaments, right?

Nope, the book of St Blair: The Patron saint of ballistics.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Nope, the book of St Blair: The Patron saint of ballistics.
I'm pretty sure that one's apocryphal.

[Charles RB]

Ever hear of the Euro Dollar, the new unified European currency that came out in 1999?

I imagine he has, yes, but I'm failing to see how the EU is a new incarnation of the Roman Empire. When's it done any invading?

We already had a new Roman Empire anyway, that was actually called the Roman Empire (Holy Roman Empire, anyway) and that existed for about a millenium. Didn't see much world-ending back then.

[Ant-Man]

I've heard of the Euro, yes, but it's not mentioned in my Bible.

No kidding, but the Euro is just one of the many things unifieing the European nations right now and in May 2004 the 15 nation European Union gained 10 new member states: Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Malta, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, And Slovenia. And the recruitment is still going hard and heavy. This New European Union is the reconstruction of the old Roman Empire, for all the historically challenged out there.

[Sam]

EDIT - Post delete function would be a nice thing to have back, don't you think?

[The Mirrorball Man]

No kidding, but the Euro is just one of the many things unifieing the European nations right now and in May 2004 the 15 nation European Union gained 10 new member states: Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Malta, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, And Slovenia. And the recruitment is still going hard and heavy. This New European Union is the reconstruction of the old Roman Empire, for all the historically challenged out there.
Except it's not an empire, and it's not roman, right?

[Ant-Man]

We already had a new Roman Empire anyway, that was actually called the Roman Empire (Holy Roman Empire, anyway) and that existed for about a millenium. Didn't see much world-ending back then.

And what did the "old" Roman empire consist of? All of the current European nations of today. So since all of Europe is unifieing in todays world under The European Union banner, it will consist of the exact same nations as the "old" Roman Empire, hence a "new" Roman empire. It just will not be called this by name but that is what it will be.

[Winslow]

Except it's not an empire, and it's not roman, right?

and there's no emperor . . . then again, maybe that Tony Blair guy . . . hmmmm

[Ant-Man]

and there's no emperor . . .

There will be one, and he is the Anti-Christ.

[The Mirrorball Man]

There will be one, and he is the Anti-Christ.
And what if there isn't? What if there's no emperor? What if you're wrong? What's going to happen then?

[BlairH]

And what did the "old" Roman empire consist of? All of the current European nations of today.
And the Middle & "near" East, and parts of Northern Africa.

[Winslow]

And what if there isn't? What if there's no emperor? What if you're wrong? What's going to happen then?

Then we Christian amillennialists get to go

SEE . .SEE . . .WE WERE RIGHT!

wait, that would be arrogant . . .

nevermind

[The Mirrorball Man]

Then we Christian amillennialists get to go

SEE . .SEE . . .WE WERE RIGHT!

wait, that would be arrogant . . .

nevermind
Well, that'll be easy. Fundamentalists never have backup plans.

[Roquefort Raider]

Bah! In any case, all we'll have to do is get the anti-christ to say his name backwards and he'll go back to the 5th dimension.

[Winslow]

Bah! In any case, all we'll have to do is get the anti-christ to say his name backwards and he'll go back to the 5th dimension.

But what if he gets retconned by Marvel? :eek:

[Charles RB]

And what did the "old" Roman empire consist of? All of the current European nations of today.

In many cases, they'd been conquered, which the EU doesn't do. And it also consisted of big chunks of the Middle East, Africa and Asia. You see many non-European nations in the EU?

So since all of Europe is unifieing in todays world under The European Union banner

Yes, I look at the European Union and I see a great deal of unity. No political infighting, divisive beauracracy, domestic opposition to being a member of the EU, debate over whether or not to late certain nations join, a failure to bring in a European Constitution...

And each member-state is still its own sovereign nation that makes its own domestic decisions and can leave the EU if it wants.

it will consist of the exact same nations as the "old" Roman Empire

Middle Eastern, African and Asian nations are going to join the European Union? Bit of a misleading name then!

It just will not be called this by name but that is what it will be.

If you know little about either the Union or the Roman Empire, then yes.

[Charles RB]

There will be one, and he is the Anti-Christ.

Hmmm, a European emperor. Well, this is how well that will go:

"Hi, my name is Andy Christ. I think it would be a great idea for all EU member-states to give up their sovereign status to the Union, so one figure, who is me, will rule the whole place. An Emperor, if you will."
"Hi, I'm France. You can take that idea and shove it up your arse."
"Hi, we're every other member-state and we agree with France. Give up our status as sovereign nations? Do we look stupid?"
"Oh bugger, that's screwed up my plans for creating a new Roman Empire, hasn't it?"

[Iangould]

A, it will consist of the exact same nations as the "old" Roman Empire, hence a "new" Roman empire.


So who's going to break it to the Irish, the Poles, the Hungarians, the Czechs the Balts and the Scandinavians that they're going to be expelled to make way for Egypt, Israel, Syria, Libya, Turkey and Algeria?

[Iangould]

"Hi, we're every other member-state and we agree with France....

Now you're just being silly.

[Grazzt]

Now you're just being silly.

ITA. If I wanted to become Emperor of Europe, I'd just try to get France to object to make it easier to get everyone else to vote for me.

"On the one hand, we lose our sovereignty. On the other, France is against it. Ehhhhhh....we better go with the one France didn't pick."

[The MunchKING]

ITA. If I wanted to become Emperor of Europe, I'd just try to get France to object to make it easier to get everyone else to vote for me.

"On the one hand, we lose our sovereignty. On the other, France is against it. Ehhhhhh....we better go with the one France didn't pick."


And after that you could EASILY take over France...

[Charles RB]

The world's got to last until at least 2070, so President Booth can start the Great Atomic Wars, devastating much of Earth that wasn't Mega-Cities and causing the Judges to take control of America.

[The MunchKING]

The world's got to last until at least 2070, so President Booth can start the Great Atomic Wars, devastating much of Earth that wasn't Mega-Cities and causing the Judges to take control of America.
I thought in 99 the Terminators were going to rise against the Humans...

[Iangould]

The world's got to last until at least 2070, so President Booth can start the Great Atomic Wars, devastating much of Earth that wasn't Mega-Cities and causing the Judges to take control of America.

And Australia, Europe, Africa, South America, Russia, Japan and China.

In fact was anywhere actually destroyed during that war?

[Charles RB]

And Australia, Europe, Africa, South America, Russia, Japan and China.

In fact was anywhere actually destroyed during that war?

Much of Australia, Europe, Africa, South America, Russia, China and America, which is why you only hear about them existing as Mega-Cities- everything else is radioactive desert (Cursed Earth, Radlands of Ji, yadda yadda). The only populated areas on the entire continent of Europe has is Euro-Cit and Ciudad Espania (and there's been one mention of a Viking City), and Euro-Cit is so unimportant that nobody can be bothered to think of what foreign stereotype lives there.

[jimmyboy]

the Anti-Christ who comes from the new Roman empire(unified Europe)

Whoah. Where did that come from?
Good question, MM. We do need to know where these concepts come from, but unfortunately, too many Christians today will read lots of commentaries about the end-times, and lots of stories about the end-times, but won't really take the time to truly dig into the bible for the truth, which is where the ideas come from in the first place.

The idea that a new Roman empire will rise out of Europe is not for certain. We don't even know that it will be called a Roman empire, or even that people will consider it such. This idea is only speculation on the part of some modern commentators, and certainly isn't specifically mentioned in the bible. However, there is certainly validity to the idea, which comes from (again) Daniel chapter nine.

The following is my interpertation of what I read in the bible:

The overall context for many of Daniel's end-times predictions is this, Daniel 9:24:
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." This seventy weeks is generally understood to be seventy "weeks" of seven years. This turns out to be 490 years, which is very interesting when you look at how certain historical events happened, and their timing. Now, moving on...

There is nothing I know of in the scriptures that says that this anti-christ will be "Roman". The words "Roman" or "ruler of the new Roman empire" are nowhere to be found. The only reason (that I can find) for this new "empire" and their ruler to be called Roman, is found in Daniel 9:26, 27:
"And after threescore and two weeks (62 weeks) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

"The prince that shall come" is this ruler. Who were "the people" that it's speaking of? I think it's the Romans, who came and destroyed much of Jerusalem and the temple. Therefore, this prince could be of the Romans, or of their descendants. This, in my understanding, is why he's called a Roman. What his actual nationality will be, nobody can predict, but this is the only thing anywhere in the scriptures (that I know of) that even hints at the possibility of any kind of renewed Roman empire, or Roman ruler.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The funniest thing I've seen in months is when I was at the hospital a month back with my dad. He had a slight case of pnemunia and was gettin treated there due to his heart surgery....well I was flippin channels and saw the funniest thing possible.


For $ 29.95 you can buy the Bible and let Jimmy Swaggert translate it for you. Every word....theres the bible and like cliff notes in red ink is Swaggert's impressions of it. It shocked me.


I know a lot of us can read the Bible and make our own thoughts on it. Some will say we still really have no clue on a lot of its meanings. But this is a guy who's gonna translate it all for you and tell ya what it means.

Wow....

[jimmyboy]

The funniest thing I've seen in months is when I was at the hospital a month back with my dad. He had a slight case of pnemunia and was gettin treated there due to his heart surgery....well I was flippin channels and saw the funniest thing possible.


For $ 29.95 you can buy the Bible and let Jimmy Swaggert translate it for you. Every word....theres the bible and like cliff notes in red ink is Swaggert's impressions of it. It shocked me.


I know a lot of us can read the Bible and make our own thoughts on it. Some will say we still really have no clue on a lot of its meanings. But this is a guy who's gonna translate it all for you and tell ya what it means.

Wow....

*Logs onto ebay...*

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/8863/bleh9hd.gif

[jimmyboy]

:D



NOT!!

[Michael P]

Eh, we just have to make it to 2061, and then Zefram Cochrane will invent the warp engine, and the Vulcans will come, and it'll all be groovy.

[Dennis K]

“We are living in the last days.”

I always get really annoyed when ever Christians say that.

When Jesus ascended everyone assumed that the end would come with in a few years. And then later there was a huge flare up around the year 1000 where everyone assumed that the apocalypse was almost upon us. And then again in the 1800 people were selling all their possessions since they so adamantly believed then end was about to come.

Ever since the dawn of Christianity all the way till modern times people believed they were living in the end times. If everyone was wrong for two thousand years why should they be right now?

I'm a Christian and I've never said that, thanks for trying paint us all with that big brush you're using.

[Michael P]

I'm a Christian and I've never said that, thanks for trying paint us all with that big brush you're using.
Then maybe he wasn't talking about you, or every Christian, just the ones who say that?

Jesus already martyred himself. You don't have to follow suit.

[Dennis K]

Then maybe he wasn't talking about you, or every Christian, just the ones who say that?

Jesus already martyred himself. You don't have to follow suit.


Such broad statements get challenged all the time, so what's the difference here exactly?

[Adam Crocker]

So who's going to break it to the Irish, the Poles, the Hungarians, the Czechs the Balts and the Scandinavians that they're going to be expelled to make way for Egypt, Israel, Syria, Libya, Turkey and Algeria?

Howzabout the chunks of Germany that we're going to kick out of the EU as well? Perhaps even the Scots once we rebuild Hadrian's wall!

(Oh yes, you'll get your wish soon enough Blair. ;) )

[Night]

I've never said it either.

I've never believed that it made that much a difference whether it happens in another 2000 years or tomorrow. Tomorrow is promised to no one. Whether it's due to Christ returning or to one's individual death we have a precious small existence here on earth. Any time you say goodbye to someone it may be the last. I’m not saying that you should always live in fear, to the contrary; make the most out of what you have.

[BlairH]

There can be no Roman Empire without...
THE LEGIO!

http://www.fuhrmann-figuren.de/museen/legio.jpg

[Adam Crocker]

There can be no Roman Empire without...
THE LEGO!

I agree. Lego was the basis of the Roman Economy. To bad the Goths got smart and started smashing all the individual pieces so they didn't fit together.

[BlairH]

I agree. Lego was the basis of the Roman Economy. To bad the Goths got smart and started smashing all the individual pieces so they didn't fit together.

Those Visigoth bastards and their non-compatable-with-the-leading-brand-lego-but-not-quite-lego-substitute!

[Iangould]

Eh, we just have to make it to 2061, and then Zefram Cochrane will invent the warp engine, and the Vulcans will come, and it'll all be groovy.

Sarek died for your sins.

[Rabid Trekkie]

Whoah. Where did that come from?

It comes from some American Christians who latched onto the idea once they heard about the European Union. I don't exactly get where they grabbed that idea (I mean one would think that the Anti-Christ would be a prominent religious figure that happens to have some political influence) but they even made an awful movie about it called Meggedo.

[Rabid Trekkie]

Sarek died for your sins.

Yeah but Kahless killed some other guy for my sins so I'll go with him. Sto'va'kor' is going to kick ass!!!

[Fabian]

Such broad statements get challenged all the time, so what's the difference here exactly?
The poster never said all Christians. He said Christians who talk about the end of times. You jumped the offendee gun

[Dennis K]

The poster never said all Christians. He said Christians who talk about the end of times. You jumped the offendee gun


True enough, but that presupposes that only Christians have said that though, doesn't it?

[Paradox]

Dennis K is really digging now:

True enough, but that presupposes that only Christians have said that though, doesn't it?

No, only that those would be the ones that annoy him. Maybe he doesn't give as much credence to others, or find that they take it as seriously or run into them as much or at all.

You're doing most of the presupposing here, Dennis. Also, that wasn't your original objection. Are you looking for something to be offended by, here?

[Dennis K]

You're doing most of the presupposing here, Dennis. Also, that wasn't your original objection. Are you looking for something to be offended by, here?

Nope, just looking to generate conversation is all.

[Paradox]

Dennis K explains:

Nope, just looking to generate conversation is all.

Good enough, then. Hope you took that question as it was meant, as a real question not an attempt to be snotty.

[Dennis K]

Good enough, then. Hope you took that question as it was meant, as a real question not an attempt to be snotty.

I did take it as a real question, no problems on this end.