Seeking Parenting Help with mean streak

[Solaris]

Yep, that's right, you heard me: a mean streak.

Finn is 4 1/2. We recently brought our dog Warrl indoors to be an indoor dog, and he's been a dream: goes potty outside, leaves our stuff alone, has only tried chewing on a couple of things, and those were toys Finn had left out (which has finally prompted Finn to start picking up after himself).

Finn's only prior contact w/animals was occasionally going out to throw the ball and pet the dogs. Now he's acting out some nasty meanness on both Warrl and on Meg's kitten Rhiannon, who's staying with us for 6 weeks.

First, he was pulling (hard) on Warrl's tail and stepping on his feet. He got a serious lecture for that. Then I caught him yesterday twisting the dog's ear; the dog was whimpering with pain, and Finn was laughing. Megan had caught him earlier that day hurting the kitten: she'd poked her paw out under the door, and he caught it and started pulling... and again, was laughing as she meowed.

Last night I hand-spanked him for his cruelty, put him to bed early and locked him in his room. He promised he wouldn't hurt the animals any more.

Today, he did the same thing with Rhia again, and I caught him tonight being mean to Warrl again. Seems he'd put Warrl's leash on him, dragged the dog up to his room and shut the door, and was chasing Warrl around the room, trying to slam his wardrobe doors on the dog, and when I walked in, he was hefting his hard plastic (and pretty heavy) trash can at Warrl, throwing it at the dog. The can hit Warrl on the back and butt. (Warrl fled downstairs as soon as I opened the door.)

He'd *also* gotten into his wardrobe and pulled out all his new diaperwipes (yes, he's *still* going in his pullup on purpose, but that's going to change too---I told him no more visits with the grandparents until he goes pee and poo in the potty all the time). He'd strewn the wipes all over the room, plus did some damage to his wall again (pulling strips off the paper).

So. Since nothing else I've said or done seems to get through to Finn, I picked up Warrl's leash from the floor, pulled Finn's pullup off, and gave him a good old-fashioned spanking with the leash on his butt. (Leash is leather.) We've explained time and again to him that he's both scaring and hurting the animals doing this stuff, and he agrees he'll be good, then does it again the moment he's alone with them. This is Finn's first (and I hope only) spanking with an item (versus hand), and I hope it gets through that thick little skull of his that we will NOT tolerate him being cruel to the animals. Period. Troy also told him that if he continues being mean to them, that we'll give the animals away and he'll never ever see them again, so they can live with someone who'll be nice to them. Finn said he didn't want us to give the dogs away, or have Meg take Rhia away and never bring her back.

Finn has promised to be nice from now on to the animals, and spoke in a fairly clear, adult manner (versus how he usually talks), so I'm hoping he'll stick to that. I know that some kids get a kick out of the feeling of power over a creature they outmass or are smarter than, and I know that kids can often be insensitive and even fascinated with another creature's pain... but that's not a trait that we will allow him to continue. He *will* learn better. Period.

We both told him that we still love him, but we are also very angry with him for him being mean. I also told him that I didn't spank him because I'm angry; I spanked him because he needed to feel some of the kind of hurt he was dishing out to the dog & cat, so he would understand how it feels from the their end... and he needed something to help him remember how awful it is to be so cruel. I put it in terms of "You hurt them and thought it was funny, so I had to hurt you so you'd know what it feels like."

Now. I'm about at my wit's end with this. I hope this will take care of the problem, but if it doesn't, does any one else have any other suggestions on how to break a kid from being mean to animals? (And yes, I've considered that maybe a bit of it, at least with the dog, is that he might be jealous---but we love on Finn (hugs, kisses, etc.) as much as we pat the dog, so I think it's a minimal thing. He's been exhibiting some meanness in other ways, too, in being destructive of things, but this stuff is by far the worst.)

Suggestions?

[Alex]

I hate to say this, but the problem may be that he's a 4 and a half year old boy.

[Phrozen]

You are very lucky that you have a even tempered dog. Most dogs when trapped in a room with someone throwing stuff at them and trying to hurt them will become aggressive. It isn't that the dog is people aggressive, just that it can't run so it chooses to fight.

[Jeff Brady]

Be with him when petting the animals. Teach by example. Emphasize gentility. Do this OFTEN, daily if possible. It'll be good for all involved.

[Typo Lad]

Don't leave him alone with the animals. Be ready to spank him again and again.

Also, practice long term solutions. Mean to the dog? No TV.

[Winslow]

Be consistent, be loving . .

And find a more positive outlet for all that aggression. Wrestle with him. Have him play fetch with the dog and tug of war (most dogs love that). Show him how cool that cat is when it stalks something down (have any cat toys he can play with the cat?)

[Slam_Bradley]

Don't leave him alone with the animals. Be ready to spank him again and again.

Also, practice long term solutions. Mean to the dog? No TV.


I agree with Morts. The real key is to find something that he REALLY likes and take it away for the offense. With Nathan it was his bed-time story. Absolutely nothing would get him to obey better than the loss of story-time. With Connor it's a lot harder. The best is loss of whatever toy he is best attached to at the moment. And there needs to be a credible threat to permanently lose them if the behavior doesn't change. Connor came within a gnat's ass of permenantly losing his brand new "Thing Hands" because he wouldn't stop peeing on the toilet paper.

[Corrina]

Alex is right. The main problem is that he's a four and a half year old boy.

Some of the solutions suggested will work but it's a stage where they don't get that they are hurting a living thing--that's why Finn finds it funny. He's not mean-spirited, he honestly doesn't get it. If it helps, both my boys grew out of this stage and the oldest is now the kindest, gentlest soul with animals that I've ever seen.

In the meantime, what everyone said about watching him and consequences. Just be aware that he probably doesn't understand why his behavior is viewed so badly.

One way the message got through to my sons was when the oldest cat hissed and then scratched them. I'll give my kitty credit, she was really careful to only scratch the hands and one quick swipe was all she wanted. She basically seemed to think they were younglings who needed a lesson rather than being really threatened. Not recommending this, especially with a dog, though.

[Typo Lad]

And there needs to be a credible threat to permanently lose them if the behavior doesn't change.

We've taken Tot to the Goodwill drop off and shown her how it works. She knows that if she really gets out of line, Favorite Toy of the Moment will be given to a poor child who will appreciate it.

[Rabid Trekkie]

Show him one of those "When Animals Attack" videos and tell him that's what the cat and dog will do to him if he doesn't stop being mean. :evilsmile

Seriously though I agree with Slam and Typo. Lecture him (it helps to yell when you do it from time to time, sometimes it gets the point across better) spank him, and take away all his stuff. Start by taking away two or three things just so he knows you will actually do it, and then take away something important to him whether it be a toy or movie or blanket or trips to somewhere.

If that doesn't work you can either make him eat the food he hates the most or call in a priest for an exorcism.

[Typo Lad]

Show him one of those "When Animals Attack" videos and tell him that's what the cat and dog will do to him if he doesn't stop being mean. :evilsmile

You laugh, but when Typo Tot started pestering Grandma PJ's kitties a bit too much, Suzannah took her aside, rolled up her sleeves, and showed her scars from when her cat had gotten scared and sliced her arm open.

Since, Tot has been respectful of cats.

[Jayna]

Sounds to me like you are doing everything right. The key is to stay consistant. You have to keep reinforcing that you still love him, but that the behavior won't be tolerated. It may take a bit, but eventually he'll get the idea.

[Solaris]

Thanks, guys. There's some wonderful ideas in there, and I'll try 'em.

We've tried taking various things away from him; doesn't seem to make more than a momentary impression. He's still on curfew right now with our model trains---controllers are put up till he poops in the potty again. He's an incredibly stubborn child (Rin, move over honey, because you've lost the prize on that one!).

I know you were joking, Trekkie, but maybe we *should* show him an animal attack vid... to get across the idea that not all animals are as patient and gentle as Warrl. (Honestly, if Warrl had nipped him for that, I wouldn't mind a bit, but Warrl just wanted to flee, bless his heart.)

I've been thinking about the situation, and have to admit that I think part of the problem is that, since my surgery, I have let the tv babysit much more than I ought to---so it's partly my fault. So I've got a new plan for working with Finn on doing stuff together, and I think that'll help as well. We'll set a new pattern and see how it goes.

For one thing, we're gonna clean up his playroom today, but we're doing two things differently: 1, instead of me designating what bin holds what, I want *him* to do it; 2, I'm gonna do pictures of the various toy types, with the word underneath, and tape 'em to the bin. After we get it all sorted out, we'll make a ritual/game of getting them back into the appropriate spot every night. I think that'll help.

Anyhow, I'm brainstorming on various things re: him, because I think part of the problem is that he's a very creative, intelligent kid... and he's bored. So we'll work on that. :)

[YoursTruly]

I can't really help you here. My kids are gentle and loving... even overly sensitive at times. My daughter had a problem with being mean when her brother was born. Her pediatrician said she'd grow out of it and she did. They still argue alot which is normal for siblings but they show their love for eachother alot too. I never had any problems with them being mean to animals. My daughter was being rough with a kitten once but I explained to her that she had to be gentle because she'd break the kitty and it would die. She's been good with animals ever since. My son tends to learn from her. I never had any problems with him at all.

[Typo Lad]

Good thinking Solaris.

I'd just like to stress again though that until he gets the concept of Tzar Balay Chiam (Respect and Pity for Animals.) down pat, you do not leave him alone with the animals. Simply put, no matter how patient your pets are, he will hit the point of no return with them.

I know a lot of people are saying "it's because he's a 4 year old boy". I have to take some issue with that. None of the kids in our family acted like that to any of the pets. Even now, my nephews are respectful of my grandparents dogs and any dogs they may meet (My neices are sadly, terrified of dogs. Tot think they're wusses). Why?

My siblings and I are sort of drill seargents about "cause and effect". Ever hear Jeff Foxworthy's routine about how his dad parented?

"You wanna stick that fork in that socket? Go on ahead.... hurl like hell, didn't it? Don't do that again."

That's how we were raised and that's how we raise our kids. You do stuff, stuff happens, for ill or good. Don't do/not do stuff 'cause mom's gonna spank you if you're bad - do/don't stuff because whatever you do has reprecutions, for ill or for good.

Sorry if I'm sounding all condescending.

Oh, and don't feel too bad about the TV thing. We haven't had a family sit-down dinner during the week for a while. It's TV & dinner for Tot while I try to catch up with work and Suzannah stays late. We're Bad Parents.

[west3man]

Solaris, as you know, I'm no parent and I didn't go through that stage, as a kid (although I *did* harrass the poor pets), but here's what I was thinking:

Mean-streak or not, Finn's a sweet boy. Four-years-old or not, I think he doesn't hurt everyone or everything for reasons other than punishment or because they're bigger than he is. I think he *knows* what pain is and he doesn't want others to suffer. When it comes to animals, though, maybe he hasn't made the connection that their whining and whimpering is a sign that they're in *real* pain. I'm guessing he knows it's pain, but doesn't think of it as real. Sure, a dog chomping on his hand will teach him that there are consequences (and, in my opinion, that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, as long as he's not hurt seriously) but what if you guys showed him one of those Animal Planet shows where they rescue animals that have been mistreated?

Do you think he'd just see it as something on tv and that's, therefore, not real? Since you mentioned that "When Animals Attack" thing as a serious consideration, I thought this might be worth mentioning.

Seeing that pets can be hurt and suffer might make an impression on him. Identifying the source of their pain and suffering as bad people (or just people who did bad things) might help him associate that behavior with himself. I don't think he'd want to think of himself as a "bad boy," so that association with others' real pain AND what kind of person he wants to be might be the kind of thing that pops into his head as he's about to repeat the behavior... and might lead to him policing himself (which I'd think is the ultimate goal).


Just some thoughts. If they're crappy, feel free to say so. (It might save me from wasting them on my future kids.)

[Nate C.]

Chris,

Everybody gave great advice, but especially Winslow.

Find ways for that boy to romp and stomp and explain the difference between good and bad aggression. :)

[Typo Lad]

West, that's a DAMN good idea.

[Solaris]

Good thinking Solaris.

I'd just like to stress again though that until he gets the concept of Tzar Balay Chiam (Respect and Pity for Animals.) down pat, you do not leave him alone with the animals. Simply put, no matter how patient your pets are, he will hit the point of no return with them.

I know a lot of people are saying "it's because he's a 4 year old boy". I have to take some issue with that. None of the kids in our family acted like that to any of the pets. Even now, my nephews are respectful of my grandparents dogs and any dogs they may meet (My neices are sadly, terrified of dogs. Tot think they're wusses). Why?

My siblings and I are sort of drill seargents about "cause and effect". Ever hear Jeff Foxworthy's routine about how his dad parented?

"You wanna stick that fork in that socket? Go on ahead.... hurl like hell, didn't it? Don't do that again."

That's how we were raised and that's how we raise our kids. You do stuff, stuff happens, for ill or good. Don't do/not do stuff 'cause mom's gonna spank you if you're bad - do/don't stuff because whatever you do has reprecutions, for ill or for good.

Sorry if I'm sounding all condescending.

Oh, and don't feel too bad about the TV thing. We haven't had a family sit-down dinner during the week for a while. It's TV & dinner for Tot while I try to catch up with work and Suzannah stays late. We're Bad Parents.

No, you don't sound condescending at all. :) And yep, I'm a big supporter of the "repercussions" idea with my kids, which is why I stepped in to give them, since the dog was too gentle to do so himself.

I also told Finn that he is no longer allowed to be alone with the dog (or the cat), and we're enforcing that as well. We've shown him several times *how* to pet, what parts to leave alone and what kind of pats/scratches the animals like, and we'll keep that up as well.

Anyway, I think persistence, and some of the other stuff that we're planning and that folks have suggested, will eventually pay off. So far he's doing well today.

I think some of it too is that he's the baby of the family, and we haven't "aged" our expectations of him, as he's grown, as good as I/we did with the girls. We're correcting that as well, in everything. (I think that often, with the baby, you subconsciously don't want them to grow up as fast, so you don't keep your expectations of them in line as well with their actual development and age. I've seen that with a lot of families... and it's a little embarassing to admit that I've done it too, but there you go.)

[Typo Lad]

I think some of it too is that he's the baby of the family, and we haven't "aged" our expectations of him, as he's grown, as good as I/we did with the girls. We're correcting that as well, in everything. (I think that often, with the baby, you subconsciously don't want them to grow up as fast, so you don't keep your expectations of them in line as well with their actual development and age. I've seen that with a lot of families... and it's a little embarassing to admit that I've done it too, but there you go.)

I totally get what you're saying. Tot's an Only, and Suzannah was babying her for a bit there until she realized what she was doing. Lately she's been "picking up" behaviors from her classmates, like talking "twee" or crying instead of using her words. Last night I praised the hell out of her because she looked at me and said "Daddy, it upsets me when you say that!" It was so nice to have her acting mature again.

I'm totally digressing.

Based on everything you've said Finn's a smart kid. he also sounds like a bit of a ham. having delt with this with Tot, I'd say you might want to make sure he doesn't develop the "Even Negative Attention is Attention" attitude.

My parents hated when I did that...

[Callie]

West definitely brought up a great idea. Instead of Animals Attack, Animal Cops might be a good teaching tool.

I'm glad you're very proactive about your son. I'm worried that if he keeps up with harming the dog, the dog may eventually bite him. Not because the dog is bad or mean, but because he will associate your son as an aggressor and only act out of fear back. It may become unrepairable if it gets that far.

My youngest sister would tease (not hurt) my parents' beagle all the time. The beagle is already a brat himself (not as sweet as your Warrl) and thinks he's the alpha when he's definitely not. As a result, she can't pet him at all; he will back away and growl at her.

[Solaris]

West definitely brought up a great idea. Instead of Animals Attack, Animal Cops might be a good teaching tool.

I'm glad you're very proactive about your son. I'm worried that if he keeps up with harming the dog, the dog may eventually bite him. Not because the dog is bad or mean, but because he will associate your son as an aggressor and only act out of fear back. It may become unrepairable if it gets that far.

My youngest sister would tease (not hurt) my parents' beagle all the time. The beagle is already a brat himself (not as sweet as your Warrl) and thinks he's the alpha when he's definitely not. As a result, she can't pet him at all; he will back away and growl at her.


We've offered to teach Finn to "Speak Dog," figuring that's a good idea all around. Whenever we can, we point out body language and sounds Warrl makes, and what they mean, so that he can learn that the dog *does* communicate stuff to him... and that he needs to pay attention to what the dog is saying.

As to order, I nursed Warrl from day 1, literally---the mother dog tore his neck skin trying to pick him up, so we had to take him away from her till that healed, and I cared for him in the meantime. I'm definitely Alpha female, and Troy is Alpha Male, to the dog. Warrl is still trying to work out Finn's place in the order. He knows that Finn is definitely subordinate to us, but in regards to each other, he's just not sure. You can tell it from his body language. It's kinda funny sometimes, watching Warrl try to work it out.

He's a very smart dog: he knows me, Troy, Megan, and Finn by name. I can say "Go to Daddy" and he'll go to Troy. I say "Where's Megan?" and he'll look at or go to her. I hope that we get Finn's issue worked out before Warrl decides that Finn is subordinate to him... or they might have real trouble later.

[Typo Lad]

He's a very smart dog: he knows me, Troy, Megan, and Finn by name. I can say "Go to Daddy" and he'll go to Troy. I say "Where's Megan?" and he'll look at or go to her. I hope that we get Finn's issue worked out before Warrl decides that Finn is subordinate to him... or they might have real trouble later.

I'd be inteterested in witnessing this. In my experiance, Dogs tend to pick up not words, but very subtle muscle cues. They follow eye movement and body tension in ways we don't.

I'm not saying Warl isn't a smart dog; heck, the cue reading is a sign of very intelligent dogs. I'm just saying it might not just be the sounds he's reacting to, and it can be fascinating to watch a "reading" dog.

My grandparent's dog Blazer is a reader/listner. He'll only respond to certain tones/body language from either my Grandfather, me, or my Cousin Arianna. Everyone else is a non-entity.

My sister-in-law's boyfriend's dog is a listner. She only responds to tones and very, very vaguely. She doesn't take commands and everyone but her master is a non-person. She actually pushes guests off the couch when they're in her way.

I'm digressing again. Sorry.