Torture Banned

[StoneGold]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/congress_detainees;_ylt=AgO9afflYylLd56aJHvm0xSs0N UE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

Well, there goes the next season of 24. The White House has been flip flopping all over the place lately. How are we supposed to see our leader as a strong, bold man when he keeps changing his mind?

[Ronald Bryan]

What did Torture do? i always saw him make well thought out, respectful posts.

[StoneGold]

What did Torture do? i always saw him make well thought out, respectful posts.
Liar! There is no poster named Torture! You're a liar!

[Noah Johnson]

This, amazingly, does not make me less pissed off.

For one thing, there is the constant, seething level of cosmic, Galactus-level pissoffedness that I experience whenever I realize that there is a debate in this country over a policy involving torturing innocent people.

Second, there's the fact that Bush got a loophole worked in that will allow torture if we assume the president has a legal right to order it. Being as Bush likes expanded executive power the way BlairH likes guns, and his own administration has in fact argued that any order the president gives is automatically legal, this does not lessen how pissed off I am.

But what really pisses me off is that, with any other politician, with Jesse fucking HELMS even, I would have had at least a SECOND of thinking "Maybe he's seen his mistake and decided to stand up for decent principles after all" but with this president, based on his track record, personal style, and multiple previous disappointments, that never even occurred to me. And the fact that I couldn't seriously even toy with that scenario, that my nation has come to that pass, pisses me off so bad I feel like if Frank Miller wrote the Midnighter.

[Crinos]

I heard that in response to this, Cheney is going into the military handbooks and redefining what torture actually entails.

I can shenanegins. :p

[Alex]

This, amazingly, does not make me less pissed off.

For some odd reason, i am not surprised.

[Trystenn]

I thought Torture was already banned by the Genova Convention?

[ragnarok_2012]

I thought Torture was already banned by the Genova Convention?

The Bush Administration has pretty much repudiated the Geneva Convention, and the current Attorney General (Gonzales) has written legal justifications for the White House on why torture is okay.

The nastiest stuff takes place in other countries. In many cases, the suspects are flown to countries that use torture (the jargon is "rendition")-outsourcing the torture (I wonder if there are US officials witnessing this stuff and asking questions?). And of course there are the "secret" (as in we now know they exist but we don't know exactly where they are) CIA prisons in various Eastern European countries.

[Trystenn]

The Bush Administration has pretty much repudiated the Geneva Convention, and the current Attorney General (Gonzales) has written legal justifications for the White House on why torture is okay.

The nastiest stuff takes place in other countries. In many cases, the suspects are flown to countries that use torture (the jargon is "rendition")-outsourcing the torture (I wonder if there are US officials witnessing this stuff and asking questions?). And of course there are the "secret" (as in we now know they exist but we don't know exactly where they are) CIA prisons in various Eastern European countries.
Well ill be D*mned, i didnt even know they could do that, and now they are trying to change it? Wow in the same decade just going "Eh, i liked it the old way better" TWICE.

[Messchird]

Kick Bush's ass for being a bad prez!

[DarkSoldier]

Second, there's the fact that Bush got a loophole worked in that will allow torture if we assume the president has a legal right to order it. Being as Bush likes expanded executive power the way BlairH likes guns, and his own administration has in fact argued that any order the president gives is automatically legal, this does not lessen how pissed off I am.
Time to invoke Godwin's Law...

The best example I can think of for a historical political leader who pushed for more executive powers was Adolf Hitler, and we all know what happened next.

[Mike Smith]

Wow...Bush is just a tricky little man ain't he? How do you even begin to go about threatening to veto torture bans?

[PatrickG]

The Bush Administration has pretty much repudiated the Geneva Convention, and the current Attorney General (Gonzales) has written legal justifications for the White House on why torture is okay.

The nastiest stuff takes place in other countries. In many cases, the suspects are flown to countries that use torture (the jargon is "rendition")-outsourcing the torture (I wonder if there are US officials witnessing this stuff and asking questions?). And of course there are the "secret" (as in we now know they exist but we don't know exactly where they are) CIA prisons in various Eastern European countries.

Isn't this where "enemy combatants" come into play?

The argument is that the Geneva Convention applies to soldiers.

However, if someone works for a terrorist/guerilla/freedom fighter network... or if someone is acting independently... or in any way is not sponsored by a state that we recognize, they are not a "soldier".

For example...

We can't torture a French soldier. But if we take over Paris, we can disregard the sovereignty of France as a nation and the same guy who was a "soldier" the day before is now an "enemy combatant".

It turns war into a game of anything goes once you've captured the flag.

[Shellhead]

It turns war into a game of anything goes once you've captured the flag.

Historically, that's exactly what war has been.

Like Noah, I'm angry that there is even a debate about this. It goes against everything that this country is supposed to stand for. If Bush gets a law passed that says sometimes it's okay for the federal government to torture people, he might as well take a steaming dump on the Constitution.

[king mob]

Is this being reported in America?

EVIDENCE emerged last night of a CIA jet flying al-Qaeda suspects to secret prisons in the Middle East using Glasgow Prestwick airport on its journey.
The revelation, uncovered by respected aviation experts, casts doubt on a statement by Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary, this week that US authorities had never used British airfields for what they call “extraordinary renditions”.

Three times in the weeks after the September 11 attacks, the same Gulfstream G5 executive jet allegedly ferried detainees to secret installations in Jordan and Egypt.



The claim will embarrass the Government, which has so far resisted mounting calls for an inquiry after assurances from Washington that it does not operate torture flights.

Jamil Qasim Saeed Mohammed, one of the men reportedly transferred on this flight, registration N379P, has not been heard of for four years. Another is now held at Guantanamo Bay. Two men flown from Sweden to Cairo resisted efforts to get them on board the jet and Sweden’s parliamentary ombudsmen criticised the police for letting US agents force them on to the plane.

On all these flights, the jet used Prestwick to refuel.

An all-party group of MPs will today ask Mr Straw a series of questions that will reopen the controversy of whether the Government was complicit in torture flights. Andrew Tyrie, the Conservative MP, also wants to know if the Ministry of Defence, which runs military airfields and the private companies running some of Britain’s main airports, has covered up records of refuelling stops.

Details of alleged CIA torture flights have been uncovered by Chris Yates, a respected aviation expert and editor for Jane’s Information Group.

He found “significant evidence” that a Gulfstream G5 executive jet and a Boeing 737 had flown “innumerable times” from civilian and military airports. “My research has revealed that these two aircraft roam globally and, although ostensibly in the US civil registry, have special dispensation to use US military air facilities around the world,” Mr Yates said. He added that, from photographic evidence, flight logs and air traffic database, he had “certain knowledge” that the aircraft operated through Prestwick, Glasgow and Luton civil airports as well as military airfields at Mildenhall, Brize Norton and Northolt.

Amnesty International said last night that the three flights were “directly connected to known cases of torture”.

Mr Yates said his inquiries showed that at one point the two aircraft he identified as used by US agents appeared at Glasgow at the same time and left within a short time of each other, raising suspicions that prisoner transfers had taken place on British soil.


Source (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1934145,00.html)

[Lubichev]

Does anyone know what "legal torture" consists of?
(that sounds so, well, oxymoronic)

Is it bright lights? Loud annoying music? Beatings?

[Tadhg]

Does anyone know what "legal torture" consists of?
(that sounds so, well, oxymoronic)

Is it bright lights? Loud annoying music? Beatings?


I don't have any real idea, but I would suspect it would be stuff like isolation and sensory deprivation.

[Solaris]

This, amazingly, does not make me less pissed off.

For one thing, there is the constant, seething level of cosmic, Galactus-level pissoffedness that I experience whenever I realize that there is a debate in this country over a policy involving torturing innocent people.

Second, there's the fact that Bush got a loophole worked in that will allow torture if we assume the president has a legal right to order it. Being as Bush likes expanded executive power the way BlairH likes guns, and his own administration has in fact argued that any order the president gives is automatically legal, this does not lessen how pissed off I am.

But what really pisses me off is that, with any other politician, with Jesse fucking HELMS even, I would have had at least a SECOND of thinking "Maybe he's seen his mistake and decided to stand up for decent principles after all" but with this president, based on his track record, personal style, and multiple previous disappointments, that never even occurred to me. And the fact that I couldn't seriously even toy with that scenario, that my nation has come to that pass, pisses me off so bad I feel like if Frank Miller wrote the Midnighter.


I almost never do this, but dammit, what HE said! :D

Always look for the loopholes with politicians, and triply so with the Bush Administration (from what I've heard, Bush is the talking head, and Cheney and Rumsfeld are really running the show, which might explain some of the apparent waffle factor). Bush himself is an idiot, IMO---he thinks in trite cliches, which is damn scary.

[BlairH]

Being as Bush likes expanded executive power the way BlairH likes guns
You're one to talk, Ruger Lad :D

[Valmore]

http://thebatman.bravepages.com/comics/batman497.jpg

Dubya told me to tell you, "Hello."