Claremont on Uncanny (444 and on)

[takashimiike]

So I picked up these issues on ebay because I love the X-Men and wanted to get into another X title, and I had never read anything by Claremont, who was supposed to be the X-Men god or whatever...man am I dissapointed. Does this guy do anything besides long, drawn out, pointless battle scenes? 30 issues, about 27 of which were fight scenes from beginning to end. They were cool or tense either. The outcome was pretty predictable. Even worse, does he have to use mind control to turn an X-Men against the group in every battle? I hate to be a whinning fanboy, but this guy is just horrible.

Seriously, 30 issues and the only character development is a a possible love trianagle between Wolverine, Storm, and Kurt that gets addressed every 5 issues or so. Now with Storm gone, I guess that is too.

So glad I bought these backissues...

[DDM]

Chris Claremont specializes in strong long story arcs. For instance, Claremont hinted as far back in Uncanny X-Men #105, 107-108 about Phoenix's lust for power which culminated in Uncanny X-Men #129-137 or The Dark Phoenix Saga. This is 4 years our time. You just have to have patience.

[Beast]

You're missing a lot of layers if that's all you honestly see in those 30 issues.

Claremont's work is not for everyone, but many of us like his current work. :)

[Flight]

Yup, its pretty crap.

[Babylon23]

These threads never go well...

I love these issues. I think Claremont balances out his fight sequences with great character moments. He progresses his characters through the stories and conflicts that he writes. This is obviously different to the decompressed model of storytelling, where whole issues are devoted to character development with little to no actual action/adventure.

Claremont employs a storytelling technique popular in the 70's-80's, which has fallen to the wayside in many books (I think Geoff Johns and Mark Waid employ a similar technique). I like this technique, and prefer it to the more popular decompressed style that's prevelent at the moment. Obviously, it's not going to be to everyone's tastes.

[Faded]

Long story arcs are great, but much like Marvel's events, what comes between is much more important IMO. And the filled frosting isn't always sweet. Those range of 30 issues are very hit and miss for me, with isolated hits coming too far between.

[Neolucifer]

Imo it went from weak to average to really weak . then came HoM and its tie in issues , where the stories picked up again in quality imo . i'm so far enjoy the rachel centered arc .

[TheWolfOfAsgard]

Imo it went from weak to average to really weak . then came HoM and its tie in issues , where the stories picked up again in quality imo . i'm so far enjoy the rachel centered arc .



I agree with that. So far the End of Greys has been a suprise. The latest issue was actually interesting with the story, dialogue and the progression of panels.

[david r]

If they'd erase Claremont's ENTIRE run on X-Men, it would mean the loss of:

Rogue, Gambit, Psylocke, Shadow King, Kitty Pryde, Emma Frost, Sebastian Shaw, Lady Deathstrike, Moira McTaggart, Sage, Rachel Summers, Lockheed, Sabretooth, Bogan, Cannonball, Magma, Sunspot, Donald Pierce, Lilandra, Deathbird, the Starjammers, Black Tom Cassidy, Spiral, Lila Cheney, Warlock, Doug Ramsey, Gateway, the Reavers, Sinister, the Maurauders, Belasco, the imperial Guard, Viper, the N'Gari, Binary, Alpha Flight, Pyro, Avalanche, Mystique, Destiny, Legion, Forge, Senator Robert Kelly, Jubilee, Dark Phoenix, Madelyne Pryor, Malice, Arcade, Madrox, the Brood, the Morlocks, Callisto, Caliban, Masque, Shola, Zaladane.

As well as creating Genosha, Madripoor and the Sh'iar Empire.

[Ant-Man]

Since Claremont wrote X-Men #1 with Jim Lee on art, and it was and is the highest selling single issue of a comic ever, he should get some serious respect.

[Ryan K]

I love the X-Men . . . I had never read anything by Claremont

That statement hurts me.

[slayer2005]

While I admit that Claremont's run lately is a bit so-so (Dino Rachel is bleh), the man has made excellent characterizations on the characters. Wolverine's honorable samurai code, as well as Nightcrawler, Cyclops (the only characterization I loved since the Dark Phoenix saga) and pioneered storylines as well.

The only thing I don't like is turning his women into Wonder Woman-wannabees, slavery and bondage and mind-control.

[Tommy]

Claremont ranges from good to downright horrific. I think the worst comics I have ever read in my life were the Viper in Murder World issues (Thank God for Dan Slott correcting that). And then there was a horror of Dino Rachel. Personally I do not think he resolves his plots well. He will write a really great two issue opening and then the pay off will just not be there.

Plus I despise Chris Bachalo's art.

[Erkoban]

Viper in Murderworld... I liked it. The art was excellent, and the story was fun, basically a set up for things bigger and more important. Namely the creation of a new and more stable Hellfire club, and it delved into the Jamie Braddock storyline, it also hinted at Psylocke's resurection.

This thread is a trollish-thread, it's only made to counter the Milligan thread.

[Twigglet]

Allready on this thread someone has posted all the charachters he's had a hand in creating. The thing is the Claremont who created some good characters (and some bad ones) is completly different than the one nowadays. Sure I respect the guy for what he did, but his recent work leaves a lot to be desired.

Most people who like his work, seem to be people who have been collecting X-men for a long time, I am pretty new to comics, and I thought the run was pretty bad, and so did the writer of this post, I wonder if it's just Claremont can't resonate with the new generation.

[The Fury]

But takashimiike, i, like Ryan Kirk, find it odd that you love the X-men yet have never read Chris Claremont's work. He established what the X-men are today.

I guess you have your opinion on his current work. I personally have found it very good. One of the books I found hilarious (not becuase if was funnily bad but just funny). If you didn't that's all well and good.


Oh and I don't know what anyone else is reading but Claremonts Uncanny is the only place where character development has occured for Wolverine...the slash'em-up version is used in the other books. Also, the introduction of X-23, Sage's characterisation, the return of Rachel and Psylocke to the X-men, Return of the Hellfire Club to what it actually is (a rich club for rich people). As well as the ongoing plot with Rachel, Psylocke and Jamie Braddock. All this is more then any other writer has done recently.

Some issue may not have been his best...I mean I never read any of X-treme really, I read a few issues and didn't think much of it. But his Uncanny work has been good in my view....


...now wait a mo while I just tip a bit of diesel on this fire. :o

[Twigglet]

My dislike of Claremont is nothing specific, I just can't stand his writing style, his dialogue kills me every time, his plots are either non-sensical or absurd (X-babies, Dino-Rachel to name a few) He picks up a plot and just drops it seemingly at random, I am all for long running story arcs, but Rachel saw Jamie how long ago? And what progression has there been since then? If you're gonna do a long arc, you need to builf it up a bit, it's been going much to long now.

Then there is also the fact that he insists on using my most hated characters, Rachel, Bishop and Sage? I hate them all :p

I have to admit, the last issue I read was decent enough, surprisingly, I enjoyed it a little.

[d newton]

Breaking it down by paragraphs:

I just can't stand his writing style, his dialogue kills me every time, his plots are either non-sensical or absurd (X-babies, Dino-Rachel to name a few).

X Babies arc - Reintroduced Mojo + had some nice dialogue between Marvel Girl / Nocturne (He's not your real daddy, he only looks like it. At least I have one -- and a mommy, too!). [Uncanny 461]

Dino Rachel arc - Reintroduced Psylocke and set up her relationship with X-23.

He picks up a plot and just drops it seemingly at random, I am all for long running story arcs, but Rachel saw Jamie how long ago?
7 issues IIRC.

And what progression has there been since then?
Lots - see Uncanny 460 & 462. :D

Then there is also the fact that he insists on using my most hated characters, Rachel, Bishop and Sage? I hate them all.

Rachel - Has been trying to get over the fact that Emma & her father are in love.

Sage - Has been turned into one of the X Men's closest allies.

[Gaz]

Chris is what i'd call a great ideas man, who has trouble leaving behind his preferred motifs and isn't great with dialogue or characters he didn't create/doesn't like.
His concepts and plots are often highly interesting or entertaining, but the execution can be spotty, particularly exposition, which generally ends up being a 2 page monolgue where events from 20 issues ago are recapped, twice.

[Daithi]

X Babies arc - Reintroduced Mojo + had some nice dialogue between Marvel Girl / Nocturne (He's not your real daddy, he only looks like it. At least I have one -- and a mommy, too!). [Uncanny 461]


It's amazing how Nocturne knows Claremont's plans for Rachel not having a dad. Where did she get that knowledge from? Also Mojo and Spiral are dealt with far too easily. Emma says something and that's it.


Dino Rachel arc - Reintroduced Psylocke and set up her relationship with X-23.


Where's X23 now? What did that serve. Rachel and mind control has being a staple of Claremont since he brought her in. The entire plot is a rehash of the Savage Land plot in X-Treme and the end where they all hug and make up with their former enemies. There's also no mention of it again. Rachel turned into a friggin dinosaur and Storm just laughs it off with "I nearly destroyed the world and you turned into a dinosaur. Ha Ha Ha!


Rachel - Has been trying to get over the fact that Emma & her father are in love.


How did that end up? Instead of Scott and Rachel talking it's turned into Rachel and Emma. After Chasing Hellfire that plot was dropped too. You think the focus would be on after effects of being Bogan's slave or where did she get that Shadow Form from.


Sage - Has been turned into one of the X Men's closest allies.

I thought she left the team? Hardly an ally.

For what it's worth I enjoyed Uncanny until the Savage Land arc. I didn't enjoy any issue from then until HoM. From then it's being fine except for when Uncanny turned into New Excalibur #0.

[Fede]

Dino Rachel arc - Reintroduced Psylocke and set up her relationship with X-23.



although the idea of dino-rachel was terrible, the relationship between x-23 and psylocke was great, but i also think it's been dropped, an least in the short term.i'd like to see more of it

[thik_3rd]

yeah, this is probably the worst run in x-comic history right now. claremont got me to drop the title breaking up a 300+ issue run.

[venuscameback]

Allready on this thread someone has posted all the charachters he's had a hand in creating. The thing is the Claremont who created some good characters (and some bad ones) is completly different than the one nowadays. Sure I respect the guy for what he did, but his recent work leaves a lot to be desired

I agree. Claermont's first run on uncanny was mostly excellent and contains many of my favourite comics of all-time.

Unfortunately it's been a looong time since a Claremont x-book has thrilled me & his current run on Uncanny has struggled to rise above mediocre while X-Treme was usually poor.

That said, I keep reading, and I thought the first part of Ends of Greys was very good & has me stoked for the next issue of uncanny for the first time since I started reading comics again a few years back


venus

[Twigglet]

That said, I keep reading, and I thought the first part of Ends of Greys was very good & has me stoked for the next issue of uncanny for the first time since I started reading comics again a few years back


venus

I definitly agree with this, I Byrne stole the first issue of this arc, and it was cool, I might get the trade if the good reviews carry on!

[Novaya Havoc]

Its layers of mediocre re-used garbage. I mean did we really need new x-babies? I wont forgive that.

I know, right? Lobdell gracefully ended Mojoworld, destroying it off-panel. Then what do we get? X-Babies and Mojo all over again. The only thing good that comes out of Mojoworld is Spiral, and Claremont doesn't use her effectively.

And apparently we're getting Warwolves back. Please: just let Claremont's plots rest. Stop letting him use them over and over again.

That would mean the loss of:

Lady Deathstrike, Sage, Rachel Summers, Lockheed, Sabretooth, Bogan, Donald Pierce, Lilandra, Deathbird, the Starjammers, Black Tom Cassidy, Lila Cheney, Warlock, Gateway, the Reavers, Sinister, Belasco, the imperial Guard, Viper, the N'Gari, Binary, Alpha Flight, Legion, Senator Robert Kelly, Jubilee, Arcade, the Morlocks, Callisto, Caliban, Masque, Shola, Zaladane.

As well as creating Madripoor and the Sh'iar Empire.

That's actually perfectly cool with me. So this essentially means that I appreciate:

Rogue, Gambit, Psylocke, Shadow King, Kitty Pryde, Emma Frost, Sebastian Shaw, Moira McTaggart, Cannonball, Magma, Sunspot, Spiral (this is not even a Claremont creation, right?), Doug Ramsey, the Maurauders, Pyro, Avalanche, Mystique, Destiny, Forge, Dark Phoenix, Madelyne Pryor, Malice, Madrox, the Brood, and Genosha.

Pretty hit-and-miss if you ask me. Probably explains this "divided readership."

[Beast]

Its layers of mediocre re-used garbage. I mean did we really need new x-babies? I wont forgive that.
Yes, because some of us happen to enjoy Mojo and the X-Babies occassional appearance.

[xmanson]

Really people. The x-babies thing lasted ONE FREAKING ISSUE, in a month when two issues came out. Fine if you don't like it, but it seems they dedicated a whole 12 issue arc to it when people are complaining. That's why I like single issue stories or small arcs because if I don't like the charcaters or villains involved, it will be over very soon. Unlike waiting 6 months for a load of crap that keeps going at snail pace. It comes and goes very fast and we move on.

[xmanson]

although the idea of dino-rachel was terrible, the relationship between x-23 and psylocke was great, but i also think it's been dropped, an least in the short term.i'd like to see more of it

X-23 changed books and they already retconned her stay with the Uncanny team as some faking stuff she planned with Logan. Really.

[Beast]

I know, right? Lobdell gracefully ended Mojoworld, destroying it off-panel. Then what do we get? X-Babies and Mojo all over again. The only thing good that comes out of Mojoworld is Spiral, and Claremont doesn't use her effectively.
Exiles brought back Mojo before Claremont did. So don't lay all the hate at his door. And it's not like CC uses him very often, he turns up during down time issues so there's something going on during the character relationships. It worked well in Uncanny #460 and #461.
And apparently we're getting Warwolves back. Please: just let Claremont's plots rest. Stop letting him use them over and over again.
Good, the Warwolves rocked. I just read the first story with them in classic Excalibur and I definatly want to see more of them. An interesting villain team, with very cool powers and abilities, who don't turn up enough. Nice to have a break from the same old things in new packages.

[xmanson]

And if you consider the last time he used the x-babies was aroun 15-16 years ago...

[Novaya Havoc]

Eh, I'd rather have a "downtime" issue that was actual character downtime rather than cheesy plot gimmicks like X-Babies or Mojoworld. I don't see how that is "downtime." Sure, not part of a major plot arc, but I hardly call the 2-parter Mojoness "downtime."

You can have lighthearted, fun, solo issues without catapaulting the characters into another realm of mental deficiency.

[Valen]

I was a huge fan of Uncanny X-Men growing up. It was during Claremont/Lee and I thought every issue was wonderful. Having said that, Claremont's two returns to UXM and his Xtreme book have never recaptured my imagination the way his first run did. Part of the reason comes from a feeling that he does reuse old plot ideas with new characters inserted. Another reason, as a previous poster mentioned earlier, he has a knack for using characters that I do not like (such as Bishop, Sage, Rachel, Psylocke). Sadly, part of what I liked about the time period of Xtreme X-Men is that it put all of my disliked characters on one book and made it easy to avoid.

CLaremont writes for a certain kind of audience. He requires that you are well-versed on the history of his past X-Men runs. For his die-hard fans, this must be an incredible treat every month when he does pull out old plot threads. For newer fans and those who simply don't follow his work that closely, it can serve to alienate them away from the book.

[ChoasMAC]

I was a huge fan of Uncanny X-Men growing up. It was during Claremont/Lee and I thought every issue was wonderful. Having said that, Claremont's two returns to UXM and his Xtreme book have never recaptured my imagination the way his first run did. Part of the reason comes from a feeling that he does reuse old plot ideas with new characters inserted. Another reason, as a previous poster mentioned earlier, he has a knack for using characters that I do not like (such as Bishop, Sage, Rachel, Psylocke). Sadly, part of what I liked about the time period of Xtreme X-Men is that it put all of my disliked characters on one book and made it easy to avoid.

CLaremont writes for a certain kind of audience. He requires that you are well-versed on the history of his past X-Men runs. For his die-hard fans, this must be an incredible treat every month when he does pull out old plot threads. For newer fans and those who simply don't follow his work that closely, it can serve to alienate them away from the book.

Threads like this are the reason I haven't posted on the X-Board in a year.. But Valen took all the things I felt about the current Uncanny (Dropped it since the first issue of dino arc) and put it into two simple paragraphs.. thank you! :D

[Ugoff]

Viper in Murderworld... I liked it. The art was excellent, and the story was fun, basically a set up for things bigger and more important. Namely the creation of a new and more stable Hellfire club, and it delved into the Jamie Braddock storyline, it also hinted at Psylocke's resurection.

This thread is a trollish-thread, it's only made to counter the Milligan thread.


I could tell this thread was going to be controversial just by it's title. Don't label someone a troll just for expressing their opinion. You could have just avoided this whole thread. It seems like no on can rant/complain/express a negative opinion without someone else ranting/complaining or calling someone a troll cuz of said opinion. Moving on to the true topic at hand...I like Claremont but I dont like his stories. I dont feel there very interesting or original nowadays and the payoff of his stories are lacking. I enjoy a slow burn storyline as much as the next guy I just dont feel Claremont has what it takes anymore.

[kloudsurfer]

I liked some of Claremonts old stuff. The Dark Phoenix Saga is one of my favs.

But I cant stand Uncany either, I dropped it after that horrible acrc with Viper in it after realising what a pointlessly boring book it was. I cant stand his writing style either. Everything just comes across to me as unnatural and awkward.

[Tennoarashi]

I really like Uncanny. Back when he was writing it then, and the way he's writing it now. That's all I'm saying.

[Babylon23]

I know that we're never going to change anyone's opinions here, but I thought I'd respond with some thoughts on some of the points others have brought up. I should point out I'm a Claremont fan, so feel free to ignore this post if you like.

Dino Rachel: I liked Dino-Rachel. The idea of Rachel's mind control subconsciously leading her powers to physically transform her is an interesting and inventive one. It's an added touch to the standard mind control plot.

I understand that a lot of people don't like Savage Land stories, but the X-Men have a long history with this area of the world. I'm glad writers keep coming back to it.

Claremont's scripting: Having just re-read my X-Men collection (#95-466), I find it interesting when people comment on Claremont's scripting now. He's scripting his books the way he always has. Each character has their own voice, nuances and characteristics.

I think this may be a case of writing styles/tastes changing. Back in the 80's, this is the way comics were scripted. Now, we have "realistic" dialogue. However, to say that Claremont doesn't know how to script comics anymore is false. Claremont's style hasn't changed, readers tastes have.

X-Babies: I found this issue funny. Given the serious stories surrounding it, it was nice to see a humourous issue thrown in to break it up a little. Really, is anything wrong with comedy in comics?

Drawn out storylines/plots: This is a standard of a lot of comics these days, one overall arc broken up into smaller stories. Bendis is following the exact same format on Daredevil and New Avengers. I'm not sure why Claremont is being singled out for this practice. Personally, I like this format, and I like knowing that a writer is going to stick around for a while.

If you look at most of the smaller stories, there are clues/hints and connections to the overall picture. Jamie Braddock, Sat-Yr-9/Courtney, and the Fury are all connected.

[Novaya Havoc]

<sigh>

I know you like it, Babylon -- but for me, it's just so... OLD. X-Babies? Done. Hidden tropical land in the frozen continent (Antarctica?). Soooo 1950s. Claremont is fun for nostalgia's sake... but only that.

Claremont was innovative. For his time. But now I want him to get a new plot. A new kick. A new drive. ANYTHING. His dialects are dated, his characterizations are dated, and his locales are dated. Escapism is good, but culture as a whole is more critical nowadays. He needs to roll with it.

[d newton]

I know you like it, but for me, it's just so... OLD. X-Babies? Done. Hidden tropical land in the frozen continent (Antarctica?). Soooo 1950s. Claremont is fun for nostalgia's sake... but only that.

Claremont was innovative. For his time. But now I want him to get a new plot. A new kick. A new drive. ANYTHING. His dialects are dated, his characterizations are dated, and his locales are dated. Escapism is good, but culture as a whole is more critical nowadays. He needs to roll with it.
In other words, you want a writer who uses space bacteria, annoying love triangles and a giant pickle in his book? :p

[Jake V]

If they'd erase Claremont's ENTIRE run on X-Men, it would mean the loss of:

Rogue, Gambit, Psylocke, Shadow King, Kitty Pryde, Emma Frost, Sebastian Shaw, Lady Deathstrike, Moira McTaggart, Sage, Rachel Summers, Lockheed, Sabretooth, Bogan, Cannonball, Magma, Sunspot, Donald Pierce, Lilandra, Deathbird, the Starjammers, Black Tom Cassidy, Spiral, Lila Cheney, Warlock, Doug Ramsey, Gateway, the Reavers, Sinister, the Maurauders, Belasco, the imperial Guard, Viper, the N'Gari, Binary, Alpha Flight, Pyro, Avalanche, Mystique, Destiny, Legion, Forge, Senator Robert Kelly, Jubilee, Dark Phoenix, Madelyne Pryor, Malice, Arcade, Madrox, the Brood, the Morlocks, Callisto, Caliban, Masque, Shola, Zaladane.

As well as creating Genosha, Madripoor and the Sh'iar Empire.
Eh. An acceptable loss. Aside from Emma Frost and Mystique, I always found his contributions to be the least interesting aspects of the X-mythos. I could easily do without all of them.

[Babylon23]

<sigh>

I know you like it, Babylon -- but for me, it's just so... OLD. X-Babies? Done. Hidden tropical land in the frozen continent (Antarctica?). Soooo 1950s. Claremont is fun for nostalgia's sake... but only that.

Claremont was innovative. For his time. But now I want him to get a new plot. A new kick. A new drive. ANYTHING. His dialects are dated, his characterizations are dated, and his locales are dated. Escapism is good, but culture as a whole is more critical nowadays. He needs to roll with it.

Hey, that's cool. As I said, we're not going to change anybody's opinions here. You're entitled to your opinion as much as anyone is. I find Claremont's stories to be interesting, and his characterisation to be the best of the X-writers. I don't find his ideas dated at all.

AS far as true innovation goes, I have to say, there's not much in any of the x-books anyway. Personally, I didn't find anything in Astonishing or X-Men that I haven't seen before. I'd argue that the last truly innovative x-book was x-statix.

[david r]

Eh. An acceptable loss. Aside from Emma Frost and Mystique, I always found his contributions to be the least interesting aspects of the X-mythos. I could easily do without all of them.

So.......you're perfectly acceptable to dismiss Kitty Pryde and Rogue? And the Dark Phoenix Saga? And erasing the Hellfire Club? Forgetting the character growth of Storm, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, etc? Chucking away turning a villain like Magneto into a 3-dimensional character? And erasing Days of Future Past and all it's implications (which admittedly, have become a train-wreck!!)

You're saying you find little interest in every single X-Men issue published from 1975-1991? Every issue from #94 to 279 and every moment within. You have complete disregard for the time-period that made these characters popular and the people who popularized them?

I'm guessing here you are a huge fan of the 90s X-Men, or the cartoons? And that is where you made your entrance into the X-world? I can understand disliking Claremont's current work, but discounting his historic 17-year run and saying it is basically disposable and needless........I don't really know what to say to that except are you really an X-fan?

[d newton]

But get off this captain save-a-claremont schtick.
Why exactly?

[Jake V]

So.......you're perfectly acceptable to dismiss Kitty Pryde and Rogue?
Yeah, I always hated them.
And the Dark Phoenix Saga?
Didn't the comics themselves already do that?
And erasing the Hellfire Club?
Fine by me.
Forgetting the character growth of Storm, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, etc?
I always hated Storm, Claremont said everything about Wolverine that he possibly could in the mini he did with Frank Miller, and fine, I like Nightcrawler, but in concept and design only.
Chucking away turning a villain like Magneto into a 3-dimensional character?
I prefer Magneto as a villain. Sorry, I just don't buy a character that was conceived as a racist terrorist suddenly becoming a sweater-wearing kindly uncle-type. I like him better when he's crazy and trying to kill humans.
And erasing Days of Future Past and all it's implications (which admittedly, have become a train-wreck!!)
Hey, you just answered your own question. And besides, the comics already erased it.
You're saying you find little interest in every single X-Men issue published from 1975-1991? Every issue from #94 to 279 and every moment within. You have complete disregard for the time-period that made these characters popular and the people who popularized them?
Yep. Not interested in the past at all. The characters being popular isn't important to me at all. There are plenty of character I like that have little popularity. Aside from X-Men (v2) #1-3, all of Claremonts run happened before I started reading comics. I liked that Magneto. He was a huge bastard, but I got annoyed when he pussed out in the end.
I'm guessing here you are a huge fan of the 90s X-Men, or the cartoons?
Nope. I read the X-men for a few years in the 90's, and found it to go anywhere between boring and insultingly bad. While I liked the cartoon at the time, looking back at the reruns that show on ToonDisney, it's a pretty awful show.
And that is where you made your entrance into the X-world?
Well, yeah. Technically. I only started enjoying the comics in 2001, though.
I can understand disliking Claremont's current work, but discounting his historic 17-year run and saying it is basically disposable and needless.
Aren't all comics really disposable? Even the most classic comics were literally thrown away by the majority of people who read them once they were finished. I see nothing sacred about any run.
I don't really know what to say to that except are you really an X-fan?
Now? Not really. I was. The old "protecting a world that hates and fears them" will always be stuck in my mind as one of the best IDEAS in the history of comics. I just wish the books were about that. I wish the concept didn't get muddled in space operas and baseball games.

[Evan Lanctot]

Word is that Claremont is being taken off of Uncanny. Again. Not surprising. Unfortunately, he is way past his prime as an X-writer. Any writer that is taken off of a book 3 times, despite his rep, is in such a position.


Evan

[Tennoarashi]

Word is that Claremont is being taken off of Uncanny. Again. Not surprising. Unfortunately, he is way past his prime as an X-writer. Any writer that is taken off of a book 3 times, despite his rep, is in such a position.


EvanHe was only taken off once. He quit the first time.

[takashimiike]

As much as I would like to believe this, it just doesn't make sense. Uncanny is consistantly in the top 10 for sales every month. Last time I checked, sales weren't dropping either.

[Twigglet]

As much as I would like to believe this, it just doesn't make sense. Uncanny is consistantly in the top 10 for sales every month. Last time I checked, sales weren't dropping either.


They were selling below Austen sales before a variant and Decimation boosted readers.

Around 2,000 people drop it every month.

And Deadly Genesis is a dollar more, and still beat it in the sales charts.

[streator]

for me, claremont since 444 has been mostly mediocre. some issues have been decent, but overall i haven't enjoyed this run as much as previous claremont runs. i would say the same about xxm and his revolution work as well.
the main problems for me are claremont's dialogue, characters that can do anything/characters having new and unexplained powers, and similar plotlines.

i don't mind his narration per se, but his dialogue just seems so out of touch with reality. most of his characters don't sound like they're talking and when they do they say things that just seem bizarre (she's totally hardcore!; you're not the boss of me, not now, not ever!; etc.).

claremont since 444 has had some of his characters do some extraordinary feats, even by comic standards. having marvel girl create a black hole seemed a bit much in my opinion. why not rely on her to do that more often when fighting a villain? it kind of cheapens the character when he/she can do something that pretty much negates any point of being part of a team. bishop suddenly always knows where he is at any given point? what? rachel manifesting the shadow phoenix although having never manifesting it before? no explanation whatsoever?

i am tired of seeing x-men fighting each other. i know it's not just claremont, but really, he uses the theme a lot. i'm tired of mind control/possession/whatever.

i'd sum up 444-now as follows:
444-447: decent opening, terrible conclusion (black hole bit)
448-449: nice coipel art, kind of boring story with viper, nanosentinels, and murderworld
450-451: x.s.e. last mentioned, really. i don't like x-23, so i wasn't too crazy about this arc. nice davis art, though.
452-454: okay arc, okay fill-in artwork. story doesn't really jive with either previous hellfire arcs (x-force, nxm) or concurrent ones (astonishing) though, whether editors fault or not.
455-459: worst claremont arc since his return or since his original departure in 1991. i have no idea how this story got greenlit.
460-461: harmless two-parter, glad claremont caught up with other books. not too fond of x-babies, though.
462-465: again, decent arc. one of the better house of m tie-ins. ending seemed quick.
466-present: decent decimation opening thus far. hoping the book continues to improve.

i know these aren't new or original criticisms, but i do share them with others. like i said, his work from 444-present hasn't been as good as his previous work, but i do think there is room for improvement and i do not think claremont should be taken off of the x-books entirely (although i would love to see brubaker replace him on uncanny).
claremont has his niche market, and sometimes i fit that niche, other times i don't. i generally find myself not fitting it now more so than i did during his previous work. his work can still be entertaining, but there's just some things that for me take away from the entertainment and seem to have a habit of repeating themselves. i give the man the benefit of the doubt though, and will continue to support his work (uncanny and new excalibur) as long as both remain readable/interesting.

[Beast]

They were selling below Austen sales before a variant and Decimation boosted readers.

Around 2,000 people drop it every month.

And Deadly Genesis is a dollar more, and still beat it in the sales charts.
And it still sells better than Milligan's X-Men and most of the books on the charts which also shed readers at a fairly equal number. Considering it's still in the top 10, even with these event comic mini-series, that's something to consider.

[The Fury]

They were selling below Austen sales before a variant and Decimation boosted readers.

Around 2,000 people drop it every month.

And Deadly Genesis is a dollar more, and still beat it in the sales charts.
Er... DG is hyped and advertised. Therefore more sales.

2000 drop every month? go and look at nearly every other Marvel book. Astonshing was about the same...no sorry more dropped it every month.

But Milligan is below that even. and it is still in the Top 10....so what does it tell you....oh right, overall sales of comics is going down.

Uncanny X-men is currently Marvel's 6 or 7th best selling book...out of everything. Marvel have currently got no reason to swap creative team of Uncanny X-men. They might have for X-men as that has sales down to now below 75,000. But event then, Milligan said he'd got storyies for a total 18 issues or so (ignoring crossovers and/or editorial stories).

Currently no X-men title is in need of new creative team (or at least a writer).

[Beast]

Er... DG is hyped and advertised. Therefore more sales.

2000 drop every month? go and look at nearly every other Marvel book. Astonshing was about the same...no sorry more dropped it every month.

But Milligan is below that even. and it is still in the Top 10....so what does it tell you....oh right, overall sales of comics is going down.

Uncanny X-men is currently Marvel's 6 or 7th best selling book...out of everything. Marvel have currently got no reason to swap creative team of Uncanny X-men. They might have for X-men as that has sales down to now below 75,000. But event then, Milligan said he'd got storyies for a total 18 issues or so (ignoring crossovers and/or editorial stories).

Currently no X-men title is in need of new creative team (or at least a writer).
Word, The Fury. Said it much better than I could have.

[Twigglet]

Er... DG is hyped and advertised. Therefore more sales.

2000 drop every month? go and look at nearly every other Marvel book. Astonshing was about the same...no sorry more dropped it every month.

But Milligan is below that even. and it is still in the Top 10....so what does it tell you....oh right, overall sales of comics is going down.

Uncanny X-men is currently Marvel's 6 or 7th best selling book...out of everything. Marvel have currently got no reason to swap creative team of Uncanny X-men. They might have for X-men as that has sales down to now below 75,000. But event then, Milligan said he'd got storyies for a total 18 issues or so (ignoring crossovers and/or editorial stories).

Currently no X-men title is in need of new creative team (or at least a writer).


Of course, I'm of the opinion that Claremonts stories havn't been up to standard, so I'm just looking for reason to get Brubeaker on :p.

In all serious though, Uncanny could be 23 white pages and it stilll would sell, compared to most comics it's doing well, but I get the impression Marvel would like it's premier X-book in the top 5.

[The Fury]

Of course, I'm of the opinion that Claremonts stories havn't been up to standard, so I'm just looking for reason to get Brubeaker on :p.

In all serious though, Uncanny could be 23 white pages and it stilll would sell, compared to most comics it's doing well, but I get the impression Marvel would like it's premier X-book in the top 5.
And here I was Thinking Marvel are currently obsessed with pushing their to selling X-book, Astonishing X-men.

If they want they want Uncanny in the top 5, then they need to advertise and premote it. There is very little of this at all at the moment. If they just changed the writer to boost sales, we'd probably get a new writer every year.

[fishtaco]

They were selling below Austen sales before a variant and Decimation boosted readers.

Around 2,000 people drop it every month.

And Deadly Genesis is a dollar more, and still beat it in the sales charts.It was selling below Austen because Austen was given the premier book. Most new readers are going to read the main book as opposed to some side book called X-Treme X-Men. Blame Joe Quesada for that. Claremont being replaced by Brubaker was a false rumor started by some annoying posters at another forum. For some reason, people started believing it. If it was 23 white pages, it wouldnt sell. i would drop it, and I'm sure everybody else here on this forum would drop it too.

In October, it was the 6th best selling book. The 6th. I repeat. The 6th best selling book in the entire comic book industry. Let's take a look at the 5 books that beat it. The hype on House of M 7 and House of M 8 was a record breaker. I have never seen so much hyperbole in my entire life. New Avengers, as well. The other two books were DC books. First issue of All-Star Batman and Robin, and I forgot what the other one is. First issues of major titles always sell well, provided that they are hyped to extreme levels.

Tell me, Twig. When was the last time you heard Joe Quesada, or even Mike Marts promise that Uncanny X-Men by Chris Claremont will crack the internet in half or blow your mind? I've heard Mike Marts talk about the book here and there on uncannyxmen.net, but otherwise, I don't hear any hype for the book. If Joe Quesada started ranting and raving about Uncanny X-Men on his newsarama interviews, I promise you it will be the best selling book for atleast 1 of 2 issues. For a book with no hype, 6th place is incredible.

[Valen]

It was selling below Austen because Austen was given the premier book. Most new readers are going to read the main book as opposed to some side book called X-Treme X-Men. Blame Joe Quesada for that. Claremont being replaced by Brubaker was a false rumor started by some annoying posters at another forum. For some reason, people started believing it. If it was 23 white pages, it wouldnt sell. i would drop it, and I'm sure everybody else here on this forum would drop it too.

In October, it was the 6th best selling book. The 6th. I repeat. The 6th best selling book in the entire comic book industry. Let's take a look at the 5 books that beat it. The hype on House of M 7 and House of M 8 was a record breaker. I have never seen so much hyperbole in my entire life. New Avengers, as well. The other two books were DC books. First issue of All-Star Batman and Robin, and I forgot what the other one is. First issues of major titles always sell well, provided that they are hyped to extreme levels.

Tell me, Twig. When was the last time you heard Joe Quesada, or even Mike Marts promise that Uncanny X-Men by Chris Claremont will crack the internet in half or blow your mind? I've heard Mike Marts talk about the book here and there on uncannyxmen.net, but otherwise, I don't hear any hype for the book. If Joe Quesada started ranting and raving about Uncanny X-Men on his newsarama interviews, I promise you it will be the best selling book for atleast 1 of 2 issues. For a book with no hype, 6th place is incredible.
You are right. Based on sales, they shouldn't consider a change in writers. As I've stated before, it isn't my cup of tea, so I will not be picking up the book until a change does happen, but Marvel would be foolish to take him off the book now. This is the same reason why those who hate the new Avengers better get used to Bendis and his style of writing. As long as these books rank in the top 10 every month, Marvel will leave the writers alone.

[Faded]

When was the last time you heard Joe Quesada, or even Mike Marts promise that Uncanny X-Men by Chris Claremont will crack the internet in half or blow your mind?

I've heard in interviews that so and so book is the best thing he's ever written so far multiple times. Does that count?

[fishtaco]

I've heard in interviews that so and so book is the best thing he's ever written so far multiple times. Does that count?I suppose, but where was this?

[Babylon23]

I'm a huge Claremont fan, but I wouldn't mind seeing him leave Uncanny.

Don't get me wrong, I love the book. It's easily my favourite x-title. I'll continue to read it religiously until Claremont leaves. However, the book seems to be constantly disrupted by crossovers, editorial decisions, members taken by other writers, etc.

One of the strengths of Excalibur at the moment is that it's pretty far removed from the rest of the x-books. I'm hoping that this means that Claremont will be able to tell the stories he wants to tell.

If Claremont could take Rachel, Kurt, Bishop, Cannonball Psylocke and Nightcrawler into a book set apart from the mansion and the main x-titles, maybe we'd get to see less editorial interference.

[Twigglet]

It was selling below Austen because Austen was given the premier book. Most new readers are going to read the main book as opposed to some side book called X-Treme X-Men. Blame Joe Quesada for that. Claremont being replaced by Brubaker was a false rumor started by some annoying posters at another forum. For some reason, people started believing it. If it was 23 white pages, it wouldnt sell. i would drop it, and I'm sure everybody else here on this forum would drop it too.

In October, it was the 6th best selling book. The 6th. I repeat. The 6th best selling book in the entire comic book industry. Let's take a look at the 5 books that beat it. The hype on House of M 7 and House of M 8 was a record breaker. I have never seen so much hyperbole in my entire life. New Avengers, as well. The other two books were DC books. First issue of All-Star Batman and Robin, and I forgot what the other one is. First issues of major titles always sell well, provided that they are hyped to extreme levels.

Tell me, Twig. When was the last time you heard Joe Quesada, or even Mike Marts promise that Uncanny X-Men by Chris Claremont will crack the internet in half or blow your mind? I've heard Mike Marts talk about the book here and there on uncannyxmen.net, but otherwise, I don't hear any hype for the book. If Joe Quesada started ranting and raving about Uncanny X-Men on his newsarama interviews, I promise you it will be the best selling book for atleast 1 of 2 issues. For a book with no hype, 6th place is incredible.

I don't understand what you are saying about Austen? I was saying that the first issue of the Mojobabies arc in Uncanny sold less than the lowest issue of Austens run..

And I've never hears Queseda say it'll blow his mind because........ nothing is happening in it that is particually exciting.

And in November, Uncanny X-men dropped to tenth place in the sales chart, whilst X-men is now only 4,000 sales behind it.

Considering Uncanny has always been far and away above X-men, the adjectiveless title doesn't seem to sell any where near as bad as some of you make it sound...

Also considering it costs .50c less than most ongoiong titles at Marvel, and considering both issues of X-men that month made more than Uncanny X-men, Uncanny is the title they'd change if they had to change any.

[fishtaco]

I don't understand what you are saying about Austen? I was saying that the first issue of the Mojobabies arc in Uncanny sold less than the lowest issue of Austens run..

And I've never hears Queseda say it'll blow his mind because........ nothing is happening in it that is particually exciting.

And in November, Uncanny X-men dropped to tenth place in the sales chart, whilst X-men is now only 4,000 sales behind it.

Considering Uncanny has always been far and away above X-men, the adjectiveless title doesn't seem to sell any where near as bad as some of you make it sound...

Also considering it costs .50c less than most ongoiong titles at Marvel, and considering both issues of X-men that month made more than Uncanny X-men, Uncanny is the title they'd change if they had to change any.I think that there is a lot of stuff in Uncanny X-Men that is very exciting. Very exciting. House of M did not blow my mind, nor did it crack the internet in half. Despite sales of the book dropping/rising here and there, it remains a top 10 book.

[david r]

Uncanny X-Men has not always sold far and away better than X-Men. Most of their history in the 90s, they've sold neck and neck. And Grant Morrison's run on X-Men sold better than UXM.

I think Babylon23 hit a good point. Claremont's mega-arc has been continually halted by Marvel's meddling. Crossovers, X-23 forced on the book, loosing characters left and right to other books (Storm, Cannonball, Sage, Wolverine.) But this isn't anything new. If you're a fan of X-Men, you must get used to editorial micromanagement on the books.

I'm not sure what Twigglet/Twiggy wants to gain from constantly bashing Chris Claremont. It's becoming distasteful at this point. Maybe you should stick with Marvel Team-Up. That seems to be more the type of book you enjoy. If you can't respect the greatest X-Men writer ever, then simply stop reading his book. It is as simple as that. If his contributions to the X-Men is driving you nuts and giving you premature grey hairs, then stop reading him and stop bashing him on message boards.

[Twigglet]

Uncanny X-Men has not always sold far and away better than X-Men. Most of their history in the 90s, they've sold neck and neck. And Grant Morrison's run on X-Men sold better than UXM.

I think Babylon23 hit a good point. Claremont's mega-arc has been continually halted by Marvel's meddling. Crossovers, X-23 forced on the book, loosing characters left and right to other books (Storm, Cannonball, Sage, Wolverine.) But this isn't anything new. If you're a fan of X-Men, you must get used to editorial micromanagement on the books.

I'm not sure what Twigglet/Twiggy wants to gain from constantly bashing Chris Claremont. It's becoming distasteful at this point. Maybe you should stick with Marvel Team-Up. That seems to be more the type of book you enjoy. If you can't respect the greatest X-Men writer ever, then simply stop reading his book. It is as simple as that. If his contributions to the X-Men is driving you nuts and giving you premature grey hairs, then stop reading him and stop bashing him on message boards.

The thing is I can respect him. I have all the X-men essentials, and I love them all, I even enjoyed Excalibur (apart from Sugar Man, I really don't like his character design) last year. Hell his Day After one shot wasn't that bad.

I have stopped reading him, the thing is, that doens't stop me wanting to read Uncanny. I love the X-men stories, I jut want the best stories I can get, just because I don't like a book doesn't mean I should stay quiet about it, I should be able to voice who I want on the title.

And Marvel Team Up is a great book, don't you like it?

[Faded]

I think Babylon23 hit a good point. Claremont's mega-arc has been continually halted by Marvel's meddling. Crossovers, X-23 forced on the book, loosing characters left and right to other books (Storm, Cannonball, Sage, Wolverine.) But this isn't anything new. If you're a fan of X-Men, you must get used to editorial micromanagement on the books.

I'm not sure what Twigglet/Twiggy wants to gain from constantly bashing Chris Claremont. It's becoming distasteful at this point. Maybe you should stick with Marvel Team-Up. That seems to be more the type of book you enjoy. If you can't respect the greatest X-Men writer ever, then simply stop reading his book. It is as simple as that. If his contributions to the X-Men is driving you nuts and giving you premature grey hairs, then stop reading him and stop bashing him on message boards.

When were Sage or Wolverine forced off to be on another book? Wolverine appears everywhere--I don't see how that's any different for Uncanny.

And respect is one thing but the refusal to acknowledge differing opinions as valid is another.

[Tommy]

I'm not sure what Twigglet/Twiggy wants to gain from constantly bashing Chris Claremont. It's becoming distasteful at this point.

Hmm... Interesting.

I don't really know what to say to that except are you really an X-fan?

When exactly did you lose your mind?

Bob Harras is Satan.

A plague on your house.

Distasteful you say?

[david r]

When were Sage or Wolverine forced off to be on another book? Wolverine appears everywhere--I don't see how that's any different for Uncanny.

Sage was removed after UXM #454 because Psylocke returned and Marvel felt a female member had to leave. (Storm, Psylocke and X-23 at that time.) So Sage was dropped, which enraged her fans. Yes, there are Sage fans.

Wolverine was lost thanks to Enemy of the State. Claremont himself has posted frustration with the character arcs he was building then, mentioning how character arcs had been "pulled out from under him at a moment's notice." I took that to mean his arcs for Ororo, Logan, Kurt and Rachel.

[Faded]

Did he explicitly state that though? I mean, Storm and Sam, yes I can see. But Sage could possibly have been his decision to remove for the time being.

[DDM]

Did he explicitly state that though? I mean, Storm and Sam, yes I can see. But Sage could possibly have been his decision to remove for the time being.

Claremont is not willing to let Sage go to some other writer. That's why she is appearing in New Excalibur.

[Twigglet]

Claremont is not willing to let Sage go to some other writer. That's why she is appearing in New Excalibur.

I get the impression, that if Claremont let Sage go, she wouldn't be on another X-team, no-one else writes her anywhere do they?

[Jake V]

Claremont is not willing to let Sage go to some other writer. That's why she is appearing in New Excalibur.
What makes you think Claremont has that kinda pull? He lost both Storm and Kitty Pryde to other writers.

It might be possible that Claremont is the only one who has any interest in writing Sage.

[Erkoban]

Morrison wrote Sage... and it was the most abysmal Sage ever written. I think where her character is concerned, Claremont is rather.... vocal and adamant about fair treatment.

Throughout the years he has expressed his distate with how other writers handled his characters, how they butchered the characters he spent years developping.

I think with Sage, the last character Claremont really invested effort and time in developping, he's rather protective of her. Especially after seeing what Marvel's golden boy did with her for one single arc, and what the editors let him do to her.

When she was written out of the title she was placed in the Hellfire club, which was set up as a continuing storyline, something that would run in the background for a couple of arcs, but then Whedon came, and as Mike Marts admitted, the Hellfire Club and whatever incarnation it's been "blessed" with now, is in Whedon's hands completely.

Whatever Claremont had planned with the group, it's been forgotten and tossed aside in favor of another writer, which is frustrating as it's quite obvious that Claremont was setting something big up with the Hellfire Club. Especially with the duality within. Roberto being on the side of the Angels, while Courtney still being on her own side, a side which harbours no good for our heroes.

Roberto and Sage and Courtney and Viper, as the two ruling factions of the Hellfire Club.

It went somewhere, but halfway in, after being established, it was dropped and whatever stories left were axed.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

Morrison wrote Sage... and it was the most abysmal Sage ever written. I think where her character is concerned, Claremont is rather.... vocal and adamant about fair treatment.


what was it again... a re-boot button? :rolleyes:

[fishtaco]

I get the impression, that if Claremont let Sage go, she wouldn't be on another X-team, no-one else writes her anywhere do they?Morrison wrote Sage, and failed miserably at it. I think he took the "computer-like mind" thing a bit too literally.

[xgeek52]

i avoided this thread like the plague...like babylon i knew this was going to be one of those agree to disagee...

that said...i like claremont...i don't always like what he does but he is the one writer who understands the xmen...i get what the young ones say (those who started the xmen after claremont's first run) but his forte is characterization not battle scenes...he (and byrne) built on the lee/kirby incarnation and created what we enjoy today...

yes, some of his stuff now is not the best...i liked extreme -- some archs more than others...i'm not all that crazy about uncanny, even before house of m...the end -- while it has its moments -- is probably his best to date...

alot of you are going to disagree...that's okay...if you've been reading my stuff you know i'm a firm believer in your right to disagree...i've said time and time again the xbooks are a mirror of society...claremont has dropped plots, yes...life takes a side road from time to time -- think about it...and he has characters he has focused on more that others...and he has his quirks...

but he has never lost sight of the history or any back story that he or any other writers have created...he's kept his eyes on the prize, so to speak...

if uncanny 466 is any indication (i just glanced through 467) this is gonna be a great arch for him...

but i'm looking forward to the final installment of the end :cool:

[thik_3rd]

Morrison wrote Sage... and it was the most abysmal Sage ever written.
how can you tell? everything about sage is pretty damn abyssmal.

[Novaya Havoc]

Morrison wrote Sage... and it was the most abysmal Sage ever written. I think where her character is concerned, Claremont is rather.... vocal and adamant about fair treatment.

Throughout the years he has expressed his distate with how other writers handled his characters, how they butchered the characters he spent years developping.

Tough bananas. Claremont had shredded/outright neglected characters written by other writers because he thought "he knows best" after "building the X-Men" throughout the 80s. Goodness -- he wouldn'e even let the writers tie in one mutant book with another (you know which one I was talking about) because it flew in the face of HIS X-Men and then HIS New Mutants.

Dazzler, Longshot, and Firestar are big examples of characters who grinded to a halt because they were not "his." He got what was coming to him when Morrison mocked Sage, and needed a drastic wake-up call. Far and away Claremont is one of the writers that most refuses to share his toys.

-B

[DDM]

I think with Sage, the last character Claremont really invested effort and time in developping, he's rather protective of her. Especially after seeing what Marvel's golden boy did with her for one single arc, and what the editors let him do to her.

When she was written out of the title she was placed in the Hellfire club, which was set up as a continuing storyline, something that would run in the background for a couple of arcs, but then Whedon came, and as Mike Marts admitted, the Hellfire Club and whatever incarnation it's been "blessed" with now, is in Whedon's hands completely.

Whatever Claremont had planned with the group, it's been forgotten and tossed aside in favor of another writer, which is frustrating as it's quite obvious that Claremont was setting something big up with the Hellfire Club. Especially with the duality within. Roberto being on the side of the Angels, while Courtney still being on her own side, a side which harbours no good for our heroes.

Roberto and Sage and Courtney and Viper, as the two ruling factions of the Hellfire Club.

It went somewhere, but halfway in, after being established, it was dropped and whatever stories left were axed.

It's why I think Marvel's editors are more lackeys or sychophants than true editors. Anyone with a brain--editing the books--could see Claremont was building something with the Hellfire Club. Yet Hollyweird Joss Whedon gets the red carpet for his astonishingly late Astonishing X-Men for his Hellfire Club that comes out of nowhere??? Something is terribly wrong at Marvel today.

[Beast]

It's why I think Marvel's editors are more lackeys or sychophants than true editors. Anyone with a brain--editing the books--could see Claremont was building something with the Hellfire Club. Yet Hollyweird Joss Whedon gets the red carpet for his astonishingly late Astonishing X-Men for his Hellfire Club that comes out of nowhere??? Something is terribly wrong at Marvel today.
But given we don't even know what direction Whedon's Hellfire story is going from, it's probably just a bit too early to complain. After all, he may mention that his group from Astonishing is trying to retake power or something like that. Given that it has Negasonic Teenage Warhead and Cassandra Nova in it, it still could be some sort of delusion of Emma's mind. We really should wait and see, you'd give CC the same respect and wait for the story to unfold, after all. :)

[xmanson]

The Astonishing needs time to be explaining before I complain... to me, the simple fact those people were coincidentally there is lame enough (assuming they were actually there) even if it didn't contradict anything. But I'm leaning towards the delusion thing, specially with the cloaked lady on that scene. And Danger was already so lame, but so lame, I wish that that turns out well.

[zonzorp]

Tough bananas. Claremont had shredded/outright neglected characters written by other writers because he thought "he knows best" after "building the X-Men" throughout the 80s. Goodness -- he wouldn'e even let the writers tie in one mutant book with another (you know which one I was talking about) because it flew in the face of HIS X-Men and then HIS New Mutants.

Dazzler, Longshot, and Firestar are big examples of characters who grinded to a halt because they were not "his." He got what was coming to him when Morrison mocked Sage, and needed a drastic wake-up call. Far and away Claremont is one of the writers that most refuses to share his toys.

-B
This is such a petty and bitter post.

[Novaya Havoc]

This is such a petty and bitter post.

That was such a pointless response.

[bfrank]

That was such a pointless response.
no, the point was clear...

[zonzorp]

That was such a pointless response.
Its point was in its accuracy. It is petty and bitter to cackle in glee about a character being trashed, especially when that glee is due to decades old percieved slights against other, entirely unrelated characters. You should consider what such posts reveal about you before making them.
I will admit that I omitted "spiteful", which omission I now rectify.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

It used to be that you had 2 or 3 good writers on the X-Men. In 2004 its scary to believe you could pick up an X-Book and have 3 different types of reads like Claremont's classic drawn out stories , Whedon's charactor driven stories or Austen's " Soap Opera " flare.

Now you have a pretty level Chris Claremont on Uncanny and he has to carry it all himself. Its just him for the next 4 months carrying the X-Franchise with Uncanny and New Excalibur.

X-Men under Milligan is a failure all the way. Its not what fans wanted and the charactors are so badly written you question if Milligan has read any of thier adventures the last 2 or 3 years .

Whedon is gone til he gets issues in the can due to his Hollywood deals. He's off and they are planning his big return which will shake up the X-Books.

If I had to chose between Milligan and Claremont at the moment , I take Claremont in a heartbeat. At least he reconizes his fellow writers contributions as we've seen since he started.

[david r]

What makes you think Claremont has that kinda pull? He lost both Storm and Kitty Pryde to other writers.

It might be possible that Claremont is the only one who has any interest in writing Sage.

Claremont mustn't have much pull anymore really. If he did, he never ever would have allowed Storm to be ushered off to promote Black Panther. And if she indeed is married to T'Challa in 2006, I would expect Claremont is seeing red over that one.

Claremont must see how divided the X-line is now. How little control the writers have. It seems like it's near impossible for the writers to get any stories completed in this day and age. It's like they have to squeeze their stories in around all the crossovers, forced tie-ins to the Big Events, and endless corporate meddling.

As for Sage, Claremont has said he doesn't plan to lose her. I think the only reason he's been able to keep her this long is because no one at Marvel has noticed her and want to take her away to be exploited somewhere else. I think CC has basically lost custody of his "babies".

[Christopher O]

Its point was in its accuracy. It is petty and bitter to cackle in glee about a character being trashed, especially when that glee is due to decades old percieved slights against other, entirely unrelated characters. You should consider what such posts reveal about you before making them.
I will admit that I omitted "spiteful", which omission I now rectify.
He has a point. Morrison's treatment of Sage is no different than Claremont's treatment of many characters. Morrison's Sage was, at the very least, funny. When Claremont butchers a character, it's almost always excruciating.

[streator]

it has always been my impression that claremont knows his role at marvel and acts accordingly (at least since his return post 1991).
claremont is around to mostly keep long-time readers around. marvel knows it's a viable fanbase and sees profit in having cc write some x-books. granted he can come up with new ideas/themes, his main role at marvel is sustaining his fanbase.
since his (arguably) failed return in 2000 and his "demotion" to x-treme x-men, it has always seemed to me that cc may get upset with editorial influence/control but eventually complies because he knows that if he tries to walk (like he did in 1991) marvel wouldn't really put up much of a fight. claremont knows what he has to work with and what he has to work in and produces material accordingly.
every cc post i've seen about negated plots and stories can basically be read as "damn, i wanted to do this, but marvel wanted otherwise, and i changed my story".
this is all as far as i've understood it, over the past few years here and elsewhere online. or, i'm assuming, and could be wrong, but it seems like claremont to me mostly accepts his role at marvel and does his best to work within confines (as opposed to other writers who have more clout, like say whedon).

[xgeek52]

i think streator has the way of things...claremont has known the way of things, which is why his return is a good thing... :cool:

[streator]

brian, if i'm too off-topic, delete... i felt i was continuing earlier posts but they themselves aren't really about cc since 444. your move, i am going to bed soon.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The moment the X-Men let Chuck Austen go...they lost someone who really drove the franchise forward. He took charactors like Polaris and Havok and moved them forward.

Its no secret that since he left the X-Writers have taken to de-evolving the charactors. Grant Morrison's changes were pushed aside . Even though he injected more life into the X-Books in 3 years than half a decade of X-Men stories in the 1990's.

People liked change. They wanna be able to look at the charactors and think how fantastic things are. If you took a poll in 2002 and today you'd see a pretty divided fanbase odds are. Because the moment theres changed Joe Quesada and the X-Editors sit down and a year later have it retconned.

Chuck Austen's only sin was he was hired to write X-Men and do what he wanted. So he started shaking things up. Each change was met with the usual anger,fear and total nature of older fans. How dare he..how dare he do this or make Poalris nuts ?

Grant Morrison's only sin was he was hired to write the X-Men and do what he wanted. So he started shaking things up . Some changes were met with the usual anger,fear and total nature of older fans. How dare he..how dare he do this or make Sage into somethin else ?


So what happened in the long run ? They won....each thing that was changed that raeders like was retconned , changed and wrote back to the way it was 10 years ago. And how damn boring is it all ? Its boring enough readers are jumping off.

Can ya hear that Joe Quesada and Mike Marts ? Thats pissed off angry fans who've pretty much told you to go f*ck the X-Men because you sure as hell have pissed them enough to drop the books. Thats not a good sign.

This isn't blasting Chris Claremont. The man is trying. He's the only one really trying and using old plots his previous writers left. He's not busy torchin them so he can piss anymore people off. But what can he do ?

Its really the X-Editors fault. Thier so busy trying to lure fans with huge events and changes its hurting the books. A lot of us wanna read the books but why bother ? Because next week Mike Marts might wanna shit on something and have it retconned next year.

Its little shock the books are losing readers. The mis-management starts at the top. If anything you need to stop and think over what your retconning so fast. A lot of us are gettin fed up . I know I am with Milligans horrible X-Men.

[xgeek52]

streator has a point... :cool: i'm gone with this... :cool:

[Twigglet]

The moment the X-Men let Chuck Austen go...they lost someone who really drove the franchise forward. He took charactors like Polaris and Havok and moved them forward.

Its no secret that since he left the X-Writers have taken to de-evolving the charactors. Grant Morrison's changes were pushed aside . Even though he injected more life into the X-Books in 3 years than half a decade of X-Men stories in the 1990's.

People liked change. They wanna be able to look at the charactors and think how fantastic things are. If you took a poll in 2002 and today you'd see a pretty divided fanbase odds are. Because the moment theres changed Joe Quesada and the X-Editors sit down and a year later have it retconned.

Chuck Austen's only sin was he was hired to write X-Men and do what he wanted. So he started shaking things up. Each change was met with the usual anger,fear and total nature of older fans. How dare he..how dare he do this or make Poalris nuts ?

Grant Morrison's only sin was he was hired to write the X-Men and do what he wanted. So he started shaking things up . Some changes were met with the usual anger,fear and total nature of older fans. How dare he..how dare he do this or make Sage into somethin else ?


So what happened in the long run ? They won....each thing that was changed that raeders like was retconned , changed and wrote back to the way it was 10 years ago. And how damn boring is it all ? Its boring enough readers are jumping off.

Can ya hear that Joe Quesada and Mike Marts ? Thats pissed off angry fans who've pretty much told you to go f*ck the X-Men because you sure as hell have pissed them enough to drop the books. Thats not a good sign.

This isn't blasting Chris Claremont. The man is trying. He's the only one really trying and using old plots his previous writers left. He's not busy torchin them so he can piss anymore people off. But what can he do ?

Its really the X-Editors fault. Thier so busy trying to lure fans with huge events and changes its hurting the books. A lot of us wanna read the books but why bother ? Because next week Mike Marts might wanna shit on something and have it retconned next year.

Its little shock the books are losing readers. The mis-management starts at the top. If anything you need to stop and think over what your retconning so fast. A lot of us are gettin fed up . I know I am with Milligans horrible X-Men.

But don't the huge events help sales of the book. Like I said before the variant Mojo cover, Claremont was selling worse on Uncanny that Austen ever did, and now h e's involved in some big events, sales have gone up again.

I'm also msytified to why you think X-men is being carried by Claremont and Milligan. Yost, Peter David, Brubeaker and Way would probbaly dispute that claim.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

But don't the huge events help sales of the book. Like I said before the variant Mojo cover, Claremont was selling worse on Uncanny that Austen ever did, and now h e's involved in some big events, sales have gone up again.

I'm also msytified to why you think X-men is being carried by Claremont and Milligan. Yost, Peter David, Brubeaker and Way would probbaly dispute that claim.

Peter David's writing a book thats pretty much like his MadroX series. Its not like the old X-Factor. Brubaker is writing a mini-series and I never really count that. Yost is new on New X-Men so no clue on him yet.

And Milligan gets no props from me whatsoever. His run is horrid. This is why I gave Claremont some props. He's the only one thru 2005 thats tried to follow what an old writer has done. And he's worked thru big cross-overs.

Big cross-overs that are planned out really well usually work for the most part. House of M wasn't. It was there to pump sales into the books. The big events didn't help Claremont who lost another charactor for this.

Also the big events don't help when 2 years earlier you lay out this direction for the X-Men that makes the concept change into a school setting. Then change it so you can go back to the 1970's to appease older readers. Its telling the readers who were aboard during Morrison & Austen , hey guess what....were changing it back. Tough luck.

Its sad and doesn't help. You keep trying to do plots from the previous years and we see what happens. Good reason I'm droppin Milligan's book next issue.

[zonzorp]

He has a point. Morrison's treatment of Sage is no different than Claremont's treatment of many characters. Morrison's Sage was, at the very least, funny. When Claremont butchers a character, it's almost always excruciating.
I found no humor whatsoever in Morrison's treatment of Sage.
The "point" is nothing more than applying notions of retribution to creative endeavor. Claremont did something to someone else's Character Y, so he deserves to have someone else damage his Character X. Applying "an eye for an eye" in this way must be unique to comic fandom.
Even if one accepts this idea, does it then follow that the fans of the characters involved deserve to have their favorites trashed as punishment for the misdeeds of the writers?

I can think of no example in which Claremont took a character that someone else was in the process of developing, in order to mock and attempt to damage that character. When CC added Dazzler to UXM, her solo series was long over. When he began using Longshot, Mojo, and Spiral, their creator Ann Nocenti was his UXM editor, and was in position to approve or disapprove of their treatment.

[Hi-Fi]

I liked Morrison's Sage. In fact, it didn't feel at all that he was mocking the character. The whole arc was a satyre about crime stories.

[Christopher O]

I found no humor whatsoever in Morrison's treatment of Sage.
The "point" is nothing more than applying notions of retribution to creative endeavor. Claremont did something to someone else's Character Y, so he deserves to have someone else damage his Character X. Applying "an eye for an eye" in this way must be unique to comic fandom.
Even if one accepts this idea, does it then follow that the fans of the characters involved deserve to have their favorites trashed as punishment for the misdeeds of the writers?

I can think of no example in which Claremont took a character that someone else was in the process of developing, in order to mock and attempt to damage that character. When CC added Dazzler to UXM, her solo series was long over. When he began using Longshot, Mojo, and Spiral, their creator Ann Nocenti was his UXM editor, and was in position to approve or disapprove of their treatment.
Punished? Eye for an eye? Misdeeds? Let's not forget that we're talking about fictional characters. I doubt it was Morrison's intent to "punish" anyone. He had some fun with the character and offered a different approach.

I liked Morrison's Sage.
You're not the only one. She was quite enjoyable.

[zonzorp]

Punished? Eye for an eye? Misdeeds? Let's not forget that we're talking about fictional characters. I doubt it was Morrison's intent to "punish" anyone. He had some fun with the character and offered a different approach.
No, we're talking about the creators of fictional characters. NH's point was that (in his view) CC misused certain fictional characters, and therefore deserved to have one of his own fictional characters misused.

For some people, egging cars, TPing houses, and breaking windows are fun. Were vandalism not fun, there wouldn't be so many vandals.

[bfrank]

Claremont mustn't have much pull anymore really. If he did, he never ever would have allowed Storm to be ushered off to promote Black Panther. And if she indeed is married to T'Challa in 2006, I would expect Claremont is seeing red over that one.


why would he be seeing red when he introduced the concept oh so long ago? :rolleyes:

[bfrank]

[QUOTE=SUPERECWFAN1]The moment the X-Men let Chuck Austen go...they lost someone who really drove the franchise forward. QUOTE]
Laugh out Loud...

[SUPERECWFAN1]

[QUOTE=SUPERECWFAN1]The moment the X-Men let Chuck Austen go...they lost someone who really drove the franchise forward. QUOTE]
Laugh out Loud...


I can hear ya cryin on the inside.

[david r]

why would he be seeing red when he introduced the concept oh so long ago? :rolleyes:

Chris never intended to marry Ororo off. She has been removed from Uncanny X-Men, almost assuredly against Claremont's wishes, so she can promote the Black Panther book and bring over X-fans to that title.

The fact that CC has lost his favorite X-woman is one thing. Having a major development happen to her and Claremont has no control over it--that is something else. I would think he'd be livid over this.

As for Claremont "knowing his place" at Marvel, I'm sure he does. It must be hard to have been the main, creative defining force on X-Men for nearly 2 decades. Bringing them to the place they are now, in terms of success. And now he has to take orders from 20-something editors who never even read X-Men before. He loses characters and stories to opportunists who dabble in X-Men as their side-gig, while making movies. He seems to have to cater to everyone else's whims, while his plots (Hellfire Club, Jamie Braddock, romantic entanglements) are tossed away in favor of the hipper "new blood". But then again, Claremont already knew the way Marvel was.

[thik_3rd]

Chris never intended to marry Ororo off. She has been removed from Uncanny X-Men, almost assuredly against Claremont's wishes, so she can promote the Black Panther book and bring over X-fans to that title.

The fact that CC has lost his favorite X-woman is one thing. Having a major development happen to her and Claremont has no control over it--that is something else. I would think he'd be livid over this.

As for Claremont "knowing his place" at Marvel, I'm sure he does. It must be hard to have been the main, creative defining force on X-Men for nearly 2 decades. Bringing them to the place they are now, in terms of success. And now he has to take orders from 20-something editors who never even read X-Men before. He loses characters and stories to opportunists who dabble in X-Men as their side-gig, while making movies. He seems to have to cater to everyone else's whims, while his plots (Hellfire Club, Jamie Braddock, romantic entanglements) are tossed away in favor of the hipper "new blood". But then again, Claremont already knew the way Marvel was.
*sad violin music plays in the background for claremont*

[Hi-Fi]

The moment the X-Men let Chuck Austen go...they lost someone who really drove the franchise forward. He took charactors like Polaris and Havok and moved them forward.



That's a joke, right?

Polaris became psycho bitch and Havok began his relationship with stupid nurse Anne, the worst recurring character ever.

He totally ruined what Casey was doing with Warren, transform Paige in a totally diferent character(and not in a good way), destroyed Stacy X potential by making her a winning girl, ruined Iceman in an aparently irreversible way, dragged Jubilee to the book to stand there behind the other characters, and i wont even talk about Nightcrawler and Draco.

Milligan's run is gold near this.

[fishtaco]

But don't the huge events help sales of the book. Like I said before the variant Mojo cover, Claremont was selling worse on Uncanny that Austen ever did, and now h e's involved in some big events, sales have gone up again.

I'm also msytified to why you think X-men is being carried by Claremont and Milligan. Yost, Peter David, Brubeaker and Way would probbaly dispute that claim.Dude, screw the freakin sales. Sure, it might sell, but it sucks. Characters get ruined and decent potential stories get canned because big, special events get in the way. The events may sell, but they suck. They only sell because Joe Quesada threatens fans that if they don't read it, their internet won't get cracked in half, or they won't get "mindjobs". :rolleyes:

[xgeek52]

and the verbal war continues...and lemme tell you guys marvel still wins...claremont will always be the definitive xbook writer...that will never change...he'll have his ups and downs and they'll be writer who will bring about change...but if marvel didn't think he could deliever over the other writers they wouldn't have brought him back or kept him around despite their interference...

'nuf said :cool:

[SUPERECWFAN1]

That's a joke, right?

Nope..pretty much serious.


Polaris became psycho bitch and Havok began his relationship with stupid nurse Anne, the worst recurring character ever.

And yet Polaris was never more interesting as the charactor who really made you debate what move she would make. She was crazy..one minute she was perfectly sane and the next ...sweet as pie. It was an edge that Lorna Dane hadn't had for years.

Chuck crafted her story into Havok's awaking into a leader. He became a suroogate dad to Carter and he was never written better. He was the leader of the team cleary. No longer written as the whiney younger brother he had grew up.

Cleary he and Polaris suffered the most from Milligan's piss poor handling. Gone are the interesting charactors and in thier place is craptaculer plots recycled from a decade ago.

He totally ruined what Casey was doing with Warren, transform Paige in a totally diferent character(and not in a good way), destroyed Stacy X potential by making her a winning girl, ruined Iceman in an aparently irreversible way, dragged Jubilee to the book to stand there behind the other characters, and i wont even talk about Nightcrawler and Draco.

Took Warren from a charactor who stood back and made him into a fighting kick ass charactor. His costume and look under Austen was a man who was gonna kick ass and try to rebuild the wreck of losing a loved one. Once Claremont got him Warren became a casualty and hasn't been the same.

StacyX sucked completely and her introduction was made under a piss poor writer. I think Casey and Milligan tie for writing charactors into the books that suck. Austen did her a favor by writing her exit so well.

Iceman had his 2nd mutation and became a living monster of Ice. For issues he debated his slipping humanity . Drake became a bitter jokester and his fights with Juggernaunt and Havok really made the book roll.

The Draco introduced a new origin for Nightcrawler and we got a set of new baddies. Claremont must have liked it because he brought it up in his 1st issue.

In all Claremont reconized the changes that Austen made. He took Juggernaunt and wrote a great issue for him and moved him to New Excalibur. Unlike Milligan who really didn't even reconize anyones storylines the last few years its pretty wild.

Milligan's run is gold near this.

Well to each his own. But thus far Milligans run has pretty much made Lorna into a boring female charactor she was for years. Made Havok into a whiny little brother again.

You can tell once Austen left things went to hell. I'll even campaign that Claremont should get both books due to how good he followed Morrison and Austen's plots when they did leave. Maybe that would help...giving Claremont X-Men and Uncanny....or putting Brubaker or Busiak on X-Men. Thats the damn ticket....Kurt Busiak on X-Men! :D

[david r]

Kurt Busiek on X-Men?? Now we're talking! How's this:

X-Men written by Kurt Busiek.
Uncanny X-Men by Chris Claremont.
Astonishing X-Men by Joss Whedon.
X-Men: X*S*E by Chris Claremont.
New Excalibur by Chris Claremont.
X-Factor by Peter David.
Sage by Claremont and Salvador Larroca.
Comedy X-Men by Scott Lobdell. :rolleyes:
X-Men: What if Claremont had never left the X-Men in the first place by Chris Claremont. ;)

[thik_3rd]

X-Men written by Kurt Busiek. - nice
Uncanny X-Men by Chris Claremont. - ugh.
Astonishing X-Men by Joss Whedon. - nice
X-Men: X*S*E by Chris Claremont. - barf
New Excalibur by Chris Claremont. - sure. stick him on a title i have to interest in.
X-Factor by Peter David. - nice
Sage by Claremont and Salvador Larroca. - kill me
Comedy X-Men by Scott Lobdell. - he should get uncanny or adjectiveless
X-Men: What if Claremont had never left the X-Men in the first place by Chris Claremont. - :rolleyes:

[d newton]

My thoughts:
X-Men written by Kurt Busiek.
Yawn.

Uncanny X-Men by Chris Claremont.
:D

Astonishing X-Men by Joss Whedon.
So-so.

New Excalibur by Chris Claremont.
:D

X-Factor by Peter David.
:D

[bfrank]

That's a joke, right?

Polaris became psycho bitch and Havok began his relationship with stupid nurse Anne, the worst recurring character ever.

He totally ruined what Casey was doing with Warren, transform Paige in a totally diferent character(and not in a good way), destroyed Stacy X potential by making her a winning girl, ruined Iceman in an aparently irreversible way, dragged Jubilee to the book to stand there behind the other characters, and i wont even talk about Nightcrawler and Draco.

Milligan's run is gold near this.

you're right, superfam seems to be a bit of hypocrite here....Austen gets praise for what Milligan gets damned for....

[takashimiike]

Busiek on X-Men (after Wheden left, moving Cyclops team to that book) and Claremont on Uncanny would be great actually. I could really see them working well together and creating a unity that hasn't been seen in the X-books for awhile. Even if I would have to sit through Claremont's crappy dialouge and odd plots.

Ah man, I was so close to a completly non-negative post there...

[Titan76]

If Quesada had any brains or would put his stuip ass ego aside for one dam minute he would look to see how bad the X-books how gotton. The X-books were selling much better this time last year and I think were selling a lot better 2 years ago. Need proof look here:
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/1850.html
Claremont was the shits back in the day, no one came close to this guy but now imo he has lost the magic he once had weather do to the editors, himself, or both the magic he had is gone. I would love it it he were to replace the lame ass X-editor Mike Marts(who thinks the Darco is one of the best X-stories ever) as the X-men's new head Editor. Have him bring in A-listed writers like Bussiek or PAD and artist like Cassaday on to the books.

Also I don't want a return to the 90's again. What I mean is Marvel is starting to put out 13 X-titles a month like the did in the 90's. X-Factor and Excclibur are back which I wish they weren't because I rather see PAD on adj. X-men, they tried to bring back X-Force, and tryed to start 3 new ongoings solo series and a whole shit more. Can why not have it like it was 3-4 years ago with a limited amount of X-books and other writers not trying to take the other writers stories and characters(yes I knew Morrison took Beast away from Claremont but Claremont took nearly all the big names for his book so I say it even out) away. And for godsakes bring in some writers and artist that are actually great. Milligan and Austen suck and so do most of the artist who did Uncanny and New X-men and Xtreme and who have been doing Uncanny right now. Even adj. X-men's art is getting bad(mainly because they overwork Sal. to death).

[The Dosadi Experiment]

If Quesada had any brains or would put his stuip ass ego aside for one dam minute he would look to see how bad the X-books how gotton. The X-books were selling much better this time last year and I think were selling a lot better 2 years ago. Need proof look here:
http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/1850.html

Also I don't want a return to the 90's again.

But pumpkin, in those much maligned 90's sales were far better than they were today, or two years ago.

Don't be stupid, don't say that sales are a good indication of quality, and then three lines further in claim that sales are not a good indication of quality.

Using your initial logic, the nineties were the creme de la creme compared to today, or even two years ago, because sales were higher.

you can't have your cake AND eat it.

[Titan76]

But pumpkin, in those much maligned 90's sales were far better than they were today, or two years ago.

Don't be stupid, don't say that sales are a good indication of quality, and then three lines further in claim that sales are not a good indication of quality.

Using your initial logic, the nineties were the creme de la creme compared to today, or even two years ago, because sales were higher.

you can't have your cake AND eat it.
And the 90's are also the reason comic books were nearly wipe out and Marvel going bankrupt. I am not trying to have it been ways I guess I might have sounded like I was but I wasn't. Sales do have a indication of quality because the books were saleing better a few years ago then they are now. I didn't like a lot of the stories say like Austen did but somehow other fans did and it showed in the sales. Why can't Claremont get the same amount of sales Austen did or better? People must of like his stories more then Claremont's or even Milligan's, I don't know why but they did.

[fishtaco]

delete post.

[Cowlander]

One things I've noticed people mentioning that got me wondering. People make the excuse for CC that hes a long term writer he plots things out at a slower pace and that his work suffers because of the inclusion of line wide mega crossovers and such right?

Well my question is why hasnt he adapted to this structure?

CC has been in the business for years hes seen the ups and down of company politics and trends come and go. With the fact that for years now we've had these line wide x-overs you would think he would learn to taylor his stories around that.

We know each issue has a set number of pages. A year worth of issues is basically 12-18 depending. Why doesnt he try to plot stories out to fit within those limits.

If I was him I'd get pissed at trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Instead of 3-4 ongoing plots, drop it 1-2 and speed it up to fit within the time frame. Give yourself room so that when you have these events you can look at the repercutions(sp?) and tweak things for the new status quo. CC one of the few writers whose work when compressed is essentially everyone else decompressed. This shouldnt be that difficult. I think it would be a good middle ground between the wants of his
"ol skool" fans and the wants of the newer "minded" fans out there.

CC isnt the only x-writer now, its pretty wrong for anyone to think the line should revolve around him. Trying your best to create this bubble of stories, then get dissapointed when editorial comes over and pops it. Instead of all titles working together, and feeding off of each other.

[Beast]

Why should he change his writing style? Noone demands that other writers change their writing style. CC plots for the long term, always wrapping one thing up while leaving other things to be dealt with later. And every writer does that, or haven't you been following Whedon's Astonishing or Milligan's X-Men. They're both following the classic CC style, but CC's the only one who gets people on his butt for it. Even Morrison's New X-Men run did the same thing, and yet you hardly ever hear complaints about his long term running arcs. :p

[david r]

I'm sure Claremont knows that crossovers and tie-ins are coming, he just doesn't know when or where. I must admit, this whole "Jamie Braddock/Rachel summers" arc is taking way too long to finish. CC should have known that in the Marvel of today, it would probably never reach it's conclusion.

but what you posted about how writers should fit their stories to what Marvel has planned, really is another good reason to drop their titles. When they announce "Big-Name Writer" is coming on to a series, I want to read His/Her stories. Isn't that what we get excited about? What we seem to actually get are 25% the writer's ideas, 25% editorial ideas, and 50% forced crossovers, tie-ins, guest-appearances etc. Look how many tie-ins and crossovers that Milligan's X-Men run has had so far.

I think it's absurd really. I mean, if you pick up a novel to read, aren't you expecting to get the Writer's vision in the story. How would you react if a novel suddenly had some stupid crossover with some other novel by some other writer? Totally pulling the main story off-course and off the track? Yet comics do this all the time. And it seems the bigger the comic is, the more aggravating the crossovers become.

I guess I am old-school. I got used to reading a writer telling his stories. Nowadays, the editors seem to tell the stories, with the writer occasionally able to squeeze in his ideas here and there. I'm reminded of Fabian Nicieza, and how he said out of his ENTIRE X-MEN RUN, he was really only proud of a handful of issues. He said the rest was stuff he was dictated to write by Marvel.

[Cowlander]

I'm sure Claremont knows that crossovers and tie-ins are coming, he just doesn't know when or where. I must admit, this whole "Jamie Braddock/Rachel summers" arc is taking way too long to finish. CC should have known that in the Marvel of today, it would probably never reach it's conclusion.

but what you posted about how writers should fit their stories to what Marvel has planned, really is another good reason to drop their titles. When they announce "Big-Name Writer" is coming on to a series, I want to read His/Her stories. Isn't that what we get excited about? What we seem to actually get are 25% the writer's ideas, 25% editorial ideas, and 50% forced crossovers, tie-ins, guest-appearances etc. Look how many tie-ins and crossovers that Milligan's X-Men run has had so far.

I think it's absurd really. I mean, if you pick up a novel to read, aren't you expecting to get the Writer's vision in the story. How would you react if a novel suddenly had some stupid crossover with some other novel by some other writer? Totally pulling the main story off-course and off the track? Yet comics do this all the time. And it seems the bigger the comic is, the more aggravating the crossovers become.

I guess I am old-school. I got used to reading a writer telling his stories. Nowadays, the editors seem to tell the stories, with the writer occasionally able to squeeze in his ideas here and there. I'm reminded of Fabian Nicieza, and how he said out of his ENTIRE X-MEN RUN, he was really only proud of a handful of issues. He said the rest was stuff he was dictated to write by Marvel.
Its definitely a problem if he doesnt have any idea of when the events are planned for. And its long been established that the X-books are editorial written. To me you and everyone elses hate. But unfortunately thats the system they have in place. Its sad but its how it is for now.

I dont think its a change your style thing. BUt the time that CC has needed to tell his stories hasnt been there for years. This isnt new. I think he should develop his stories more deliberately. Keeping in mind that things can and most likely will be interupted by an event. Focus on one plot and develop a secondary plot as the first is played out.

He doesnt have the issues anymore to develop nine plots at a time. It's a big disapointment for the fans and apparently for him to(from what's posted from his posts at xfan). I'm not saying he should plan his stories around the corporate line. I'm saying he should plan his stories keeping in mind the fluid nature of the titles now. Hes not writing in a bubble. Hes been good at incorporating the after affects of others work into his title. BUt hes bad at planning his work around the presence of the other titles.

Its like building a house on a flood plain, you know this area is gonna be flooded at whatever interval. BUt you build a beautiful house landscape it to the nines. Then complain when a wall of water washes it all away. that doesnt make sense in the long run. Hes been on these titles long enough to know how it goes.

I like his work for the most part(outside a few issues I have with his Wolvie and Storm). His new Exc is real strong and its the only X-title outside of UltX I'm interested the least in. He does good work. But he needs to consider the affect other writers are having on the titles as a whole.

Hes on a team now, but hes plotting like its just him in the game.

[david r]

I agree overall. The game has changed at Marvel, and telling great stories without outside interference seems to be a thing of the past.

I've always wondered for years why Claremont doesn't write some X-Men novels. Marvel are always put these out, yet they're never by CC (except for the film novelizations.)

They should give Claremont a series of X-Men novels to produce where he can roam free outside of the current X-continuity. He can do whatever he wants, and actually give us HIS story. And this way, newbie fans can get their Brubakers, Whedons and the like for the 10 minutes they're on the books. This way everybody is happy.

[fishtaco]

And this way, newbie fans can get their Brubakers, Whedons and the like for the 10 minutes they're on the books. This way everybody is happy.touche. 10 minutes indeed. :D

[SUPERECWFAN1]

you're right, superfam seems to be a bit of hypocrite here....Austen gets praise for what Milligan gets damned for....

Austen did soapy plots well...he brought in the right cast and used charactors who really didn't get much time in the books. Milligan's using the same over exposed charactors like Rogue/Gambit and craftin the same soapy plots from a decade ago.

One guy gets a pass while the other doesn't from me.

[thik_3rd]

And this way, newbie fans can get their Brubakers, Whedons and the like for the 10 minutes they're on the books. This way everybody is happy.
why do you assume it's only "newbie" fans who like the brubakers and whedons? claremont had his time, he sucks now, get over it. comics and the x-men have moved on.

[Beast]

why do you assume it's only "newbie" fans who like the brubakers and whedons? claremont had his time, he sucks now, get over it. comics and the x-men have moved on.
It's darling how you state that as solid fact, when it's only your opinion.

[fishtaco]

why do you assume it's only "newbie" fans who like the brubakers and whedons? claremont had his time, he sucks now, get over it. comics and the x-men have moved on.He's still here. Unfortunately, that seems to be a reason why people think he sucks. Because he's still here. :rolleyes:

[thik_3rd]

Unfortunately, that seems to be a reason why people think he sucks.
that and he's currently writing the worst x-stories ever.

[david r]

Since you think the Scott Lobdell-era was a golden age, I'm not sure what your definition of "worst X-stories ever" is.

If not having an over-abundance of jokes and one-liners in CC's writing makes him bad, I'm all for it. ;)

[fishtaco]

that and he's currently writing the worst x-stories ever.Right. I think you have things mixed up. Chris Claremont didn't write Onslaught, Operation: Zero Tolerance, Fatal Attractions, Eve of Destruction, Phalanx Covenant, or anything having to do with the (shudder) Legacy Virus. Not sure why you got bad stories mixed with Claremont :rolleyes:

The man is on a par with Chuck Austen.

[thik_3rd]

Right. I think you have things mixed up. Chris Claremont didn't write Onslaught, Operation: Zero Tolerance, Fatal Attractions, Eve of Destruction, Phalanx Covenant, or anything having to do with the (shudder) Legacy Virus. Not sure why you got bad stories mixed with Claremont :rolleyes:

The man is on a par with Chuck Austen.
the build up to onsluaght was great. zero tolerance was decent. fatal attractions is one of the best stories ever. eve of destruction was really the last good story in uncanny/adjectiveless in like 8 years. the legacy virus was one of the best concepts in x-history.

you're wrong. claremont is not on par with austen, he's below austen right now.

[Twigglet]

Right. I think you have things mixed up. Chris Claremont didn't write Onslaught, Operation: Zero Tolerance, Fatal Attractions, Eve of Destruction, Phalanx Covenant, or anything having to do with the (shudder) Legacy Virus. Not sure why you got bad stories mixed with Claremont :rolleyes:

The man is on a par with Chuck Austen.


...............

You mean I shouldn't get Phalanx Convenant

I'm so confused!

*head explodes*

[thik_3rd]

get it. if nothing else, you can get the whole story on ebay for like $5. hell, you can get it for free if you know where to look. so you're not really risking any type of money. read it and figure out if you like it yourself. in general, that's the best policy.

[Twigglet]

get it. if nothing else, you can get the whole story on ebay for like $5. hell, you can get it for free if you know where to look. so you're not really risking any type of money. read it and figure out if you like it yourself. in general, that's the best policy.

I don't like getting it for free.

I'll get it anyway, should be an interesting read.

[david r]

...............

You mean I shouldn't get Phalanx Convenant

I'm so confused!

*head explodes*

I would say, save your money. The Phalanx Covenant wasn't dreadful or anything, just not one of the X-Men's finest hours. I would definitely put it low on my list of the best X-Men tales of the 1990s.

[fishtaco]

the build up to onsluaght was great. zero tolerance was decent. fatal attractions is one of the best stories ever. eve of destruction was really the last good story in uncanny/adjectiveless in like 8 years. the legacy virus was one of the best concepts in x-history.

you're wrong. claremont is not on par with austen, he's below austen right now.The buildup to Onslaught had it's moments, but the payoff stunk (waitaminute, was there actually any payoff at all?)

OZT stunk because Nimrod, a great villain, was turned into such a lame character like Bastion. Disliked the human sentinels, and there was way too much buildup. It was pretty weak.

Fatal Attractions was just another boring psycho Magneto and his worshippers take over the world crap in a mega hyped crossover to boost up sales in the books. It was poopy. Mediocre art, too.

Eve of Destruction sucked because of Colossus becoming an Acolyte again, Paulie, Wraith, Sunpyre, a weak attempt to kill off Longshot, a very out-of-character Dazzler, oh and another boring psycho Magneto take over the world story.

The Legacy Virus sucked because it was overexposed. Honestly, it was the only thing that Lobdell did post X-Cutioner's Song, and it got old fast, especially after the deaths of some of the best characters, such as Multiple Man and Magik. Pyro died, too. It was such a dumb idea. The only good that the Virus did was kill off Revanche. That was very convenient.

I never said Claremont is on par with Austen. I said Lobdell is on a par with Austen, and if not, then he's lower. Austen created Sammy :(