Possible IC Clues in Teen Titans #30

[Jim Hall]

This is speculation more than *SPOILER*, but if you haven't read TT #30, I guess it might spoil part of the story for you, so be forewarned.

On page 9, Raven says "Death has lost its meaning. The doorway between life and death has been cracked open for years. Ever since Superman came back to us. And then Oliver Queen, Hal Jordan, Jason Todd."

Then on page 18, she says "It's how Green Arrow escaped death."
Speedy: "Who opened it? Brother Blood?"
Raven: "No. Someone else...someone who's keeping it open."

Now, these could just be clues pertaining to the story in Teen Titans, but given the fact that Geoff Johns wrote the story, and in the first issue of IC, Batman makes reference to the "last time (Superman) inspired anybody was when (he) died"...could the "darkness" that has infected the DCU have been something that came through with Supes when he returned to life? Is it Kal-El himself? Am I barking up the wrong tree, here?

[VietN]

I've heard that he wasn't actually dead, just in some sort of super coma. Someone confirm this?

[Squashua]

Supposedly he was DEAD DEAD. Superman used up all his solar power battery fighting Doomsday.

Eradicator used some sort of sun-ray injection to bring his body back, but his soul was G.O.N.E. GONE.

Pa Kent **DIED** around the same time, and his soul found Clarks and convinced him to come back to life.

No fooling.

Later on, turned out that Superman took on too much energy after he died and he had to fart it all out in space or something. All Star Superman would have had a field day.

No fooling.
And that's why Superman isn't just a solar-powered husk.

[borateen]

And that's why Superman isn't just a solar-powered husk.

Zombie Supes. Cool.

[Sean Walsh]

I figured, when I read that as well, that this thing with Raven was gonna explain (possibly) why all these dead folks are alive again (and continuing to return, as mentioned in that solicit for #4 or 5).

Also, it sounded like Raven believes someone's using *her* to do all this.

And what is it with the Titans and their writers: does writing these character cause them to go insane and try to destroy the DCU with Crisises?! ;) :p

[Gingold]

Interesting to note that half of the Zombie Titans were casualties of the original Crisis (Tula, Dove, and Kole), that we see Hank Hall as Hawk, not Extant, and Phantasm, who I thought was a resurrected Danny Chase anyway, was included. Fun issue.

I wonder who's holding the door of death open? Earth-2 Wonder Woman, maybe? Leading up to a showdown between her and Kal-L, that's broken up by Earth-2 Batman returning from the grave...

[Calybos]

Crisis clues? Who CARES?

We got Captain Carrot back! Woo-hoo!

[Just_A_Rat]

I for one think it is high time for Deadman to show up and shed some light on this "open doorway."

[ocelotrevs]

I didn't read the spoil, but the TT it seems will be playing a major part of Identity Crisis and most likely the aftermath.

[Nick Kal]

The Teen Titan series has been a Crisis Maxi series... so if you've been picking it up then you're like.. WHOA! Awesome.

[Sean Walsh]

Crisis clues? Who CARES?

We got Captain Carrot back! Woo-hoo!

I'm wondering where all the outrage is, as Captain Carrot seems to following the grim gritty footsteps that IDENTITY CRISIS tread and the rest of the DCU is currently following in.....by gosh, where is the maelstrom?!?! ;) :p

Also, I LOVED the whole part with Marla Bloom (Blue Devil's ex-girlfriend, killed in UNDERWORLD UNLEASHED) - I had a bad feeling that development has been forgotten...

[lonewolf23k]

I'm wondering where all the outrage is, as Captain Carrot seems to following the grim gritty footsteps that IDENTITY CRISIS tread and the rest of the DCU is currently following in.....by gosh, where is the maelstrom?!?! ;) :p

Actually, in Captain Carrot's case, it looks more like making fun of the grim, gritty state of the regular DCU.

[Guts/Batman]

Well Raven saying that the door of death was being kept open wasn't a surprise as it was said last issue. Nor that Brother Blood has set up TT West (though that was a pretty big "WTF" moment.

Nor the fact that this...negates how Superman came back and the "one time" specific circumstance nature of it.

There's no more a clue here to who has done anything than there was last issue. I wished he would have answered a little more of the pussle this issue.

But the Raven initiated kiss with Garfield was the biggest "WTF?!?" thing in this issue. It literally came out of nowhere.

It was like: "Here let me help you." *look deep into eyes* *kiss*

My reaction: "WTF?!?"

That and Gar is the only one who doesn't have his head up his ass. I had issues with this...issue (as I have said on another thread.

Johns is throwing a lot of stuff together. Some I agree with, some I don't (God I hate teen angst).

I thought that would be the biggest "WTF" thing I would read all day until I read...Nightwing.

[Choppa]

When I read that I just assumed that it was supposed to tie in to IC.

[Patriot07]

Well Raven saying that the door of death was being kept open wasn't a surprise as it was said last issue. Nor that Brother Blood has set up TT West (though that was a pretty big "WTF" moment.

Nor the fact that this...negates how Superman came back and the "one time" specific circumstance nature of it.

There's no more a clue here to who has done anything than there was last issue. I wished he would have answered a little more of the pussle this issue.

But the Raven initiated kiss with Garfield was the biggest "WTF?!?" thing in this issue. It literally came out of nowhere.

It was like: "Here let me help you." *look deep into eyes* *kiss*

My reaction: "WTF?!?"

That and Gar is the only one who doesn't have his head up his ass. I had issues with this...issue (as I have said on another thread.

Johns is throwing a lot of stuff together. Some I agree with, some I don't (God I hate teen angst).

I thought that would be the biggest "WTF" thing I would read all day until I read...Nightwing.

If you dislike Teen Angst, It doesn't seem that Teen Titans would be the book for you.

[Guts/Batman]

If you dislike Teen Angst, It doesn't seem that Teen Titans would be the book for you.

It's not why I read it.

I'm enjoying DC right now but only because I find this utterly hilarious that the stories are so plot and avtion based and not character based stories.

What Johns has done with Conner Kent is sickening point of view. It doesnn't really take much to write teen angst.

I don't think this is being negative but I think it is a valid criticism of the use of characterization in this book. These characters didn't use to be angsty. So why make them angsty (this applies to Superman, too).

In essence I'm reading because it is funny in the "WTF is wrong with this" sense, and because I am also reading other train wrecks as well so I might as well get the whole picture, right? ;)

Besides, how is my not buying it gonna change the direction of the book? That would take millions of mes to do.

[Nick Kal]

It's not why I read it.

I'm enjoying DC right now but only because I find this utterly hilarious that the stories are so plot and avtion based and not character based stories.

What Johns has done with Conner Kent is sickening point of view. It doesnn't really take much to write teen angst.

I don't think this is being negative but I think it is a valid criticism of the use of characterization in this book. These characters didn't use to be angsty. So why make them angsty (this applies to Superman, too).

In essence I'm reading because it is funny in the "WTF is wrong with this" sense, and because I am also reading other train wrecks as well so I might as well get the whole picture, right? ;)

Besides, how is my not buying it gonna change the direction of the book? That would take millions of mes to do.

I'm glad you've found a good way to waste money then?...

Seriously, you're spending incredible amounts of money reading this story because you liek to see bad writing and story (according to you)?

Jeez.. some people really have too much time on their hands...

[Guts/Batman]

I'm glad you've found a good way to waste money then?...

Seriously, you're spending incredible amounts of money reading this story because you liek to see bad writing and story (according to you)?

Jeez.. some people really have too much time on their hands...

Nah. It's not a waste of money. I enjoy reading it but not for the reason Johns would want me to. His lack of writing a character driven story driven by characters worth caring about is utterly hilarious to me.

You can read it as wasting my money if you want to, that's fine. Reading all the build-up I have has killed my enthusiasm for IC. I will admit that.

The hype had the opposite effect what it was supposed to on me. At some level, I regret reading all of I did. I almost read too much. But...I don't on the whole.

I get Nightwing, GA, AS B&R, Batman for the same reason: Can't keep my eyes off the train wreck. Train wrecks are free to watch though...Got me there. ;) :D

Also, I can't really deny having too much time on my hands. I am in college after all and don't work during the week so I have plenty of time to read.

I like reading comics, good or bad. It's the medium I like. It's the combination of art and story that draws me in. Makes me wanna read it.

If I didn't like the reading I would only get: Batman minis (I sooo with these would replace the mediocre Batman in-continuity stories), Action Comics, Marvel minis, Vertigo titles, Solo, and character driven books in general.

Comics are the only thing I'm not really selective on (except Supergirl, Superman/Batman, and a few others)

[Ian J.N.]

On page 9, Raven says "Death has lost its meaning. The doorway between life and death has been cracked open for years. Ever since Superman came back to us. And then Oliver Queen, Hal Jordan, Jason Todd."
If this does relate to IC, I wonder if Barry Allen is involved. One of these deaths is not like the others...

[Bored at 3:00AM]

If you dislike Teen Angst, It doesn't seem that Teen Titans would be the book for you.

Yeah, Teen Titans has been the DCU's homebase for teen angst since 1980.

[Guts/Batman]

Yeah, Teen Titans has been the DCU's homebase for teen angst since 1980.

I guess I can see it from Wonder Girl's point of view. As the one kid called all Amazons "terrorists." And her mom not telling her that her dad is freakin Zeus.

But she's not doing anything. She's just not fulfilling her "hero responsilities." And neither is Superboy.

Raven's angst in this issue seemed sudden and out of the blue...almost as much as the kiss was.

But Superboy's massive, massive angst has been done before a decade ago. Was it really necessary for Johns to do a storyline with the same stuff?

[Wonder Dude]

Crisis clues? Who CARES?

We got Captain Carrot back! Woo-hoo!


Looking for the Capt. Marvel Bunny crossover :D

[PatrickG]

I know a guy who was rambling about this weeks ago.

My best friend's wife's boss apparently frequents other message boards somewhere where they've been speculating that Kal-L has been tinkering with things like life and death to combat what he pereceives as darkness in the DCU and that this is the "miscalculation" refered to in IC#1.

Note that the IC SECRET FILES centers around secret actions taken by Kal-L and crew during their hiatus.

My guess is that this is dead on.

Superman died fighting Doomsday and Kal-L's group somehow manipulated the universe to allow for Superman's highly improbably return. But just as they did this, Bruce got his back broken. And by the time Bruce was fixed, Hal went Parallax.

It's a bit like the old "Monkey's Paw" story. Every time they try to manipulate things back to being lighter, there's a snowball effect of dark consequences.

What we saw in IC #1 could essentially be the last intervention act over the last 20 years when they finally said, "The heck with it! We've been tinkering with the universe this whole time and it's not getting better."

[Squashua]

Looking for the Capt. Marvel Bunny crossover :D

Oh, please, no.

Anyone else get a good "The Watchmen" vibe out of this? Obviously, Roger Rodney Rabbit has been set up. I suspect Fastback for no other reason than his lack of appearance.

Armordillo fed Carrie Carrot to Frogzilla indeed!

[Cayman]

Maybe it's been Kal-L, perhaps Lois Lane had already died but Kal-L won't let her go. Probably not though. Made more sense when I was typing it. :)

Cay

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I guess I can see it from Wonder Girl's point of view. As the one kid called all Amazons "terrorists." And her mom not telling her that her dad is freakin Zeus.

But she's not doing anything. She's just not fulfilling her "hero responsilities." And neither is Superboy.

Raven's angst in this issue seemed sudden and out of the blue...almost as much as the kiss was.

But Superboy's massive, massive angst has been done before a decade ago. Was it really necessary for Johns to do a storyline with the same stuff?

All this stuff has been done before. There isn't a single popular aspect of the super-hero genre that hasn't been done over and over and over and over again at this point. The superhero genre has been in continuous monthly publication since 1938, there's not much new material to be mined anymore. If you don't like a particular type of story or are tired of seeing it, fair enough, but teen angst is pretty much was Teen Titans is about. This is like tuning into Fear Factor and complaining about how disgusting it is.

[scratchie]

Seriously, you're spending incredible amounts of money reading this story because you liek to see bad writing and story (according to you)?

Jeez.. some people really have too much time on their hands...That's OK. I just saw someone over on the DCComics message boards complaining that "every story arch[sic]" in JLA since issue 70 has "sucked". That's like four or five years worth of comics, every single one has apparently sucked, and he keeps going back for more.

Reminds me of the old Matt Groening cartoon about teenagers watching MTV: "Man, the last ten videos have really sucked. Maybe the next one will be cool."

[Tom]

I guess I can see it from Wonder Girl's point of view. As the one kid called all Amazons "terrorists." And her mom not telling her that her dad is freakin Zeus.

But she's not doing anything. She's just not fulfilling her "hero responsilities." And neither is Superboy.

Raven's angst in this issue seemed sudden and out of the blue...almost as much as the kiss was.

But Superboy's massive, massive angst has been done before a decade ago. Was it really necessary for Johns to do a storyline with the same stuff?
G/B, I swear you complain just to complain. Haven't you been complaining quite frequently that a lot of DC's books are too plot and action-based without enough character interaction? Here you get a book heavy with character interaction and you're still complaining.

[Guts/Batman]

I know a guy who was rambling about this weeks ago.

My best friend's wife's boss apparently frequents other message boards somewhere where they've been speculating that Kal-L has been tinkering with things like life and death to combat what he pereceives as darkness in the DCU and that this is the "miscalculation" refered to in IC#1.

Note that the IC SECRET FILES centers around secret actions taken by Kal-L and crew during their hiatus.

My guess is that this is dead on.

Superman died fighting Doomsday and Kal-L's group somehow manipulated the universe to allow for Superman's highly improbably return. But just as they did this, Bruce got his back broken. And by the time Bruce was fixed, Hal went Parallax.

It's a bit like the old "Monkey's Paw" story. Every time they try to manipulate things back to being lighter, there's a snowball effect of dark consequences.

What we saw in IC #1 could essentially be the last intervention act over the last 20 years when they finally said, "The heck with it! We've been tinkering with the universe this whole time and it's not getting better."

That Parallax's Kal-L up.

I don't like any idea that "Parallaxs" Kal-L up. That could be just me though.

[Guts/Batman]

G/B, I swear you complain just to complain. Haven't you been complaining quite frequently that a lot of DC's books are too plot and action-based without enough character interaction? Here you get a book heavy with character interaction and you're still complaining.

Yes...yes I have been. You do have a point there and I concede it. And I could be complaining just to complain that is true. I can't really deny that.

In this case it is the character interaction that bothers me. Conner as a whiny bitch boy? Johns can do better than that.

Maybe I've just grown tired of it over the last 8 issues. I dunno. I think I'm just waiting for Conner to say "Screw you, Luthor. I'm good and there's nothing you can do to stop me." and stop "Luthor didn't clone me to save people."

Conner in IC #1 was the tease that reallllyyy pushed the button too far.

All this stuff has been done before. There isn't a single popular aspect of the super-hero genre that hasn't been done over and over and over and over again at this point. The superhero genre has been in continuous monthly publication since 1938, there's not much new material to be mined anymore. If you don't like a particular type of story or are tired of seeing it, fair enough, but teen angst is pretty much was Teen Titans is about. This is like tuning into Fear Factor and complaining about how disgusting it is.

Heh. Fear Factor is one train wreck I don't like to watch though. ;)

But you are right. The comic book industry is pretty stripped of "new" ideas. I can deal with angst to a certain degree but the way Johns is writing Conner Kent...has crossed that line. For me, anyhow.

[stealthwise]

That Parallax's Kal-L up.

I don't like any idea that "Parallaxs" Kal-L up. That could be just me though.

Does it though? Remember that this theory would place these events before Parallax retroactively, and that a compelling argument could be made for returning Superman to life. If that's the event that caused the current crisis, then it doesn't really make Kal-L a "Parallax", but rather the domino effect that occurs afterwards is spawned from good intentions, not egomaniacal intentions.

[Guts/Batman]

Does it though? Remember that this theory would place these events before Parallax retroactively, and that a compelling argument could be made for returning Superman to life. If that's the event that caused the current crisis, then it doesn't really make Kal-L a "Parallax", but rather the domino effect that occurs afterwards is spawned from good intentions, not egomaniacal intentions.

That is true....

[Nick Kal]

I like that Kal-L being the one tampering idea.

[PatrickG]

Does it though? Remember that this theory would place these events before Parallax retroactively, and that a compelling argument could be made for returning Superman to life. If that's the event that caused the current crisis, then it doesn't really make Kal-L a "Parallax", but rather the domino effect that occurs afterwards is spawned from good intentions, not egomaniacal intentions.

It could also give us a scenario where Kal-L did a series of benevolent (albeit heavy-handed) gestures with no intent to remake the universe or anything of the like. He was just doing quiet good deeds.

But because of his well-intentioned actions, he may be right in knowing/suggesting that the universe is beyond conventional repair as-is.

He's only a Parallax if the universe can survive without a reboot.

If he's reinventing the universe because the last few years have been rough, that's Parallax-level extreme.

However, maybe he's pushing to reinvent the universe because it's dying and can't be saved as-is.

Of course, even that becomes more complicated if it's due to his own actions... But that's several steps ahead of the game. We should get a better portrait of events on Wednesday.

[cmndob]

I know this was talked about a while back but I just wanted to say, the Raven/Beast Boy kiss was NOT out of the blue, Johns has been laying the groundwork for them to get together since at least issue 8. And yeah, Conner has be wicked angsty, but what I've liked about Johns' run has been that he doesn't shy from letting a storyline sit and grow for a while. Yeah it sucks seeing Superboy sitting around Kansas, but it'll kick ass when he comes back swinging at some point during IC. Unless he's on Luthor's side...

[Ian J.N.]

It could also give us a scenario where Kal-L did a series of benevolent (albeit heavy-handed) gestures with no intent to remake the universe or anything of the like. He was just doing quiet good deeds.
I'm not sure I buy that. Kal-L's recap in IC#2 implies that he's been watching and hoping from behind the scenes, not actively interfering. "I shouldn't have turned my back on them. I should've tried to find a way to their Earth sooner." His sin, as he views it, is inaction, uninvolvement. I think he's more Kingdom Come Superman than Parallax.

[Young Avenger]

If the door of death is being left open that gives Ted Kord the chance to come back. :D

[PatrickG]

If the door of death is being left open that gives Ted Kord the chance to come back. :D

Just not as Blue Beetle.

[Azrael52]

The Teen Titan series has been a Crisis Maxi series... so if you've been picking it up then you're like.. WHOA! Awesome.

Yeah, I agree. Ever since it's beginnings. And especially in the future storylines.

[matewan1990]

Actually, in Captain Carrot's case, it looks more like making fun of the grim, gritty state of the regular DCU.

Actually, the Captain Carrot storyline appears to be Geoff Johns paying tribute to Watchmen. The CC comic covers shown are all meant to look like Watchmen covers and the storyline follows the same pattern. Good stuff. I loved Captain Carrot as a kid and hopefully DC will bring him back. That was one of the best comic series of all time and deserves trade paperback treatment or Showcase Presents Captain Carrot and His Amazing Zoo Crew. It was funnier and more relevant than most comics of the 1980s. CC's appearance in TT 30 was an unexpected, but welcome, surprise.

[titanfan]

Just as a side note, DC mentioned the Captain Carrot part of Teen Titans in it's "Crisis Counseling" section. Why?

[cmndob]

In the multiverse, CC is gonna be Alex Luthor's demise!!

[ConnersConsicence]

ok here we go...my theory of who is keeping the door open..Neron...though not for the reason of helping anyone..its him trying to claw his way back...dunno..sounded better in my head but maybe just maybe...

[Krypto67]

I've been reading the boards and had to pose a question. If everyone--or at least, most everyone--that has died is coming back, could that mean the return of the Anti-Moniter? He changed outfits during COIE, why not sport a new one here? Or maybe even the return of the Moniter? And I haven't read anybody even mention the return of--BARRY ALLEN!!! (Though I hope he stays dead, it would diminish his actions in the DCU, in my opinion.)

[Max_Dillon]

^Eh, Barry's been dead since I've been reading comics, so I don't feel the need for them to bring him back, only on special occasions I guess like they usually do. He's like a legendary figure

[Paul Newell]

I've been reading the boards and had to pose a question. If everyone--or at least, most everyone--that has died is coming back, could that mean the return of the Anti-Moniter? He changed outfits during COIE, why not sport a new one here? Or maybe even the return of the Moniter? And I haven't read anybody even mention the return of--BARRY ALLEN!!! (Though I hope he stays dead, it would diminish his actions in the DCU, in my opinion.)
There's been some speculation that he'll make an appearance as there was some deal that he would meet with Wally three times. So far only two meetings have taken place.