Peter Milligan's X-Men

[shaolin_dolomite]

(Spolierish Rant...)







I wanted to be excited about Peter Milligan’s X-men, I really did. I had heard nothing but good things about x-statics, and how it was a brilliant book, and all that, but since im a poor continuity whore, I never picked it up, but rather i waited for this brilliant writer to come on a mainstream book. and to my luck he did move to a mainstream book and low it was one i already picked up.

But I don’t get it, I figured while chuck Austin had his moments they were few and far between, and most of them happened on his exiles run, so I figured there was no where for the xmen book to go but up and with this new amazing writer that everyone was talking about was going to jump on it. i had a grin, and was excited about the new prospects after Austin left.

But that hasn’t happened, in fact its more like the fabled Chuck Austin’s work, than anything new an amazing. so much so that I am now officially going to refer to the writer of xmen, as either Chuck Milligan, or Peter Austin. Its uncanny how similarly bad these books are. The bad characterization, the unwieldy plots that meander and (IMO) go nowhere. The horrible love triangles that getting set up, that seemed forced by everyone involved.


(a couple of random examples)

I mean come on, Cyclopes gets hit by a Sentinel boot? We are talking about Cyclopes right? The tactical leader of the xmen, the captain America of the mutie universe? The guy that you always want around in the battle because he always knows where everyone and everything is. The person captain American differed to during onslaught. A 10-foot tall boot hits that guy.

I see. :confused:

Iceman getting his power’s back, while a complete cop out, and total spit in the face to what house of m was suppose to be, I understand, I accept, I’ve moved on. OK.

But iceman’s constant where is lorna, what is lorna doing, why am I not with lorna, why is lorna drinking water at a water fountain, why doesn’t lorna love me, why does lorna always want to use the strap on, on me…

Insecurities are one thing, but we don’t need to be bombarded with them. Iceman is an original xman for Christ sake, when the hell is someone going to write him like an adult, and not a frozen high school loser who never had a girlfriend in his life and has no idea what the hell he is doing in any type of situation. :mad:

Havok, poor, poor Havok. He use to be cool, that younger brother who was always completing with his older brother, and never could quite stand up to scott.
But once again we are bombarded with that, Havok has been the leader of the team for a while now, and to see him on his knees crumbled with fear. (part one of this comic odyssey)
That made me completely slack jawed. I couldn’t believe it. at this crucial moment, the sentinels are back and surrounding the x-mansion, and im all like, where is Havok, time for Havok to step up and show that brother of his how far he has come, time to be an A-lister Havok good buddy….
Wait, where is Havok, why is beast saying to let him die?
….Wait is that Havok, ON HIS KNEES FROM FEAR!!!….( I then turn to my comic book reading buddy)
Is that Havok? Where are my glasses….
(His response) Yep.
(my response) :evilangry

Then havoc goes into his where is lorna mode, which is just as bad as Icemans,
THEN havoc gets to his feet charges forward with no heed to caution…

I see. Amazing. Kushingaza type of amazing.

And lorna….
Is she going out with iceman or not? Is she with havoc? All this drama that chuck milligan has forced upon us, I should at least know that right? Through all the jealous looks, and the lunch room antics, I should know that lorna is going out with one of these cock-suckers right?

I thought she was finally with bobby and we could move one and deal with important stuff like, I dunno… the 60 foot tall sentinels that just crashed through the roof of the mansion for no apparent reason…
or the thousands of anti-mutie people standing with rocket launchers on the front lawn...

But no. the minute I think that lorna is with iceman, she quites the xmen, and her big secret about losing her power, everyone already knows already, and its not a big deal to begin with,
So ok, she is leaving, surly iceman will go with her, but wait says scott we need ALL THE POWERED MUTANTS WE CAN FIND.
Iceman, you cant go.

Lorna says Emma, screw you get out of my house.

Lorna’s like ok,

But then Havok a powered mutant right?,
so when he is like screw you guys I quite im going with lorna, and there they go walking out the door his arm over her shoulder….

where the hell was scott then?

so here I am stunned. with an increased need to get stoned, wondering what the hell lorna is doing...
Because if she was with iceman then she would have been like Ewww no, come on bobby,
Or
Ewwww Havok… no sorry bobby, my frozen BF I have to do with by myself.

But she didn’t.

And iceman didn’t say anything…

I keep waiting for the brilliant twist or something, but all I get from Peter Austin is more of the same pile that the original Chuck Austin left for me in the first place.

So will someone explain it to me, what am I missing, why was this guy considered good in the first place,

[jj9126]

Honestly, Milligan's work is on-par with Austins. I'm still can't believe it's the same guy who wrote X-Force & X-Statix.

[moebius]

Milligan's characterization could be described as "arch." He takes prominent character traits and expands them to ridiculous proportions, just to make plain that this is what we're seeing.

Worked in X-Statix. Doesn't work in X-Men.

[Titan76]

My suggestion to Mr. Milligan is next time you are given a mainstream book like THE X-MEN you may want to do a little research on the characters you are writing about. Milligan had said his knowledge of the X-men was very limited and in a lot of ways its showing. Not to mention his stories have been nothing but shit. I mean at least Austen could write some good action stuff from time to time to make up for a lot of his bad stories, Milligan on the other hand..... :rolleyes: :evilangry . Milligan made me do something that Austen and Casey never did, his writing made me drop this book. I for one just can't stand his writing on the X-men and won't pick it back up until he leaves or by some miracle writes much, much better stories.

[The Mirrorball Man]

It's not anything new. Milligan's work in continuity-ridden books has always been terrible. His "Elektra" was abysmal. If you don't like his "X-Men", stop reading it and find yourself a copy of "Enigma".

[Keith_Martineau]

I, like many, was extremely excited when I heard Milligan was coming on to X-Men. I, like many, have been significantly underwhelmed by what he's produced.

But I don't think the comparisson to Austen's work is fair, really. You can definately tell a difference between Chuck Austen X-Men and Peter Milligan X-Men. There is a serious difference in tone, and pacing.

Chuck Austen had his moments, and some good ideas. He even executed some of those ideas pretty well. And the ones that weren't, were spectacular failures.

Peter Milligan on the other hand...has really just been boring. It hasn't been such a train wreck that you can't look away...it's just been very MEH.

That said, I actually enjoyed the issue that came out, and hopefully this Doop arc will be good, as hopefully the Apocalypse arc will be.

[The Mirrorball Man]

I just want to add that despite what might think about Milligan's work on "X-Men", we have to remember that he's the one who has to tell the adventures of an X-Men team that doesn't have Cyclops, Storm, Beast, Nightcrawler, Jean Grey, Colossus, Kitty or Psylocke. The most popular character he has is probably Rogue.

[Crimson]

I’ll admit that Milligan’s run started off bad… Golgotha did not click with me at all and if I hadn’t read his awesome mini “Toxin” and it wasn’t an X-Title I’d of most likely of dropped it.

However Bizarre Love Triangle was a step in the right direction and so far the Decimation arc has been good. It started off slow but Milligan is getting me interested.

I can’t wait to see how the subplot of the tomb pans out (I think from solicitations we all know but I’m trying to avoid posting spoilers)

[Titan76]

I just want to add that despite what might think about Milligan's work on "X-Men", we have to remember that he's the one who has to tell the adventures of an X-Men team that doesn't have Cyclops, Storm, Beast, Nightcrawler, Jean Grey, Colossus, Kitty or Psylocke. The most popular character he has is probably Rogue.
Peter David didn't have popular characters too but was able to make them popular and have one of the best runs in the X-universe's history.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Peter David didn't have popular characters too but was able to make them popular and have one of the best runs in the X-universe's history.
I'm not a fan of Peter David, but yes, you're right, anything can happen, and a good writer can write interesting stories even without popular characters. I would say, however, that the expectations for "Adjectiveless" X-Men are not the same as the expectations for a secondary book like X-Factor.

[Midnite]

Coming off the talk of Bribaker taking over Uncanny, I think Marvel's replacing the wrong guy.

[shaolin_dolomite]

Coming off the talk of Bribaker taking over Uncanny, I think Marvel's replacing the wrong guy.



PBBBBBBB,

screw that, i would take chuck austins clone any day of the week over big Chris Clarmont.

[Rich L]

I've been pretty underwhelmed by Milligan's run on X-Men so far; he doesn't seem to grasp the characters properly and the plots have been pedestrian at best (although the end of Golgotha waa pretty good).

I can't believe this is the same Peter Milligan who wrote the excellent Human Target.

[Valmore]

I just want to add that despite what might think about Milligan's work on "X-Men", we have to remember that he's the one who has to tell the adventures of an X-Men team that doesn't have Cyclops, Storm, Beast, Nightcrawler, Jean Grey, Colossus, Kitty or Psylocke. The most popular character he has is probably Rogue.

He has Rogue, Gambit and later Wolverine. Those are three very popular X-Characters right there. Iceman is easily as popular as Colossus and Psylocke. Havok and Polaris also have their fans.

No, it's not a lack of popular X-Men that's Milligan's problem.

The problem is he hasn't done anything different with them. "Rogue and Gambit have relationship problems" wasn't anything new. He's just turned it into a bad soap opera with Rogue's "mother" trying to break her up with Gambit to set her up with some unknown guy. We can only hope that somehow he makes the end result different, but my gut instinct is it goes like this:

"Ah love Remy, mother. Ah've been through things with him. I don't know this Pulse person, and just because he can touch me, it doesn't make him the right person for me." Then she'll hug Gambit and Mystique walks off with Pulse in tow. Pulse might even turn around and say something like, "You made the right decision, Rogue."

Polaris-Bobby-Havok? Ditto.

[Gaveedra 6]

Milligan's writing on X-men has been getting steadily better. Unfortunately, the art has been getting worse and worse. This last issue had alot of funny and poignant lines. But there wasn't a single facial expression to be found other other than Larocca's signatire blank stare. The inking was really terrible too.

The decimation arc is paced really strangely, but at least it's coming out every other week. With luck, X-Men will soon be on to bigger and better stories. My biggest hope is that the art will shape up. Milligan's one of the wittiest writers in comics, and he's paired with an artist who has no sense of humor.

[Twigglet]

The new Decimation arc has been interesting, seemed to me that he couldn't do much before then, as Decimation was looming up.

The Doop arc should kick my ass.

[shaolin_dolomite]

Milligan's writing on X-men has been getting steadily better. Unfortunately, the art has been getting worse and worse. This last issue had alot of funny and poignant lines. But there wasn't a single facial expression to be found other other than Larocca's signatire blank stare. The inking was really terrible too.

The decimation arc is paced really strangely, but at least it's coming out every other week. With luck, X-Men will soon be on to bigger and better stories. My biggest hope is that the art will shape up. Milligan's one of the wittiest writers in comics, and he's paired with an artist who has no sense of humor.


steadily getting better?
did you not read the cyke getting kicked by a sentinal boot?

and granted the art harkness back to the greatness that was chuck austin's run, but i really dont see a diffrence in the art style.

no the book is poo, it has been poo, and its chuck milligans fault.

[Titan76]

I think the art is lacking right now due to Larroca being over work. This guy is a speed demon and is probably Marvel's fastest artist. I say give him a two month break and then have him come back fresh and then I think the art would be great again.

[Gaveedra 6]

steadily getting better?
did you not read the cyke getting kicked by a sentinal boot?

and granted the art harkness back to the greatness that was chuck austin's run, but i really dont see a diffrence in the art style.

no the book is poo, it has been poo, and its chuck milligans fault.
See, I enjoyed seeing Cyclops getting kicked by a sentinel. The X-men are at their wits end and don't really know who to trust and who to fight. They're a mess, and I think Milligan was capturing that.

The book hasn't been stellar, but please don't call him Chuck Milligan. Go read The Draco.

[shaolin_dolomite]

See, I enjoyed seeing Cyclops getting kicked by a sentinel. The X-men are at their wits end and don't really know who to trust and who to fight. They're a mess, and I think Milligan was capturing that.

The book hasn't been stellar, but please don't call him Chuck Milligan. Go read The Draco.


at some point for a soilder instinct would kick in, and he would have avoided the 10-foot tall boot of a 60-foot sentinal. but instead cyke got kicked, he said AHH, and then we moved on to the next panel.
how that shows "wits end" must be beyond me...

and chuck milligan IS wit friend, pure unadulterated wit.

[Flight]

I was enjoying that post until the fucking spoilers for this weeks book.

[SOBO]

Let's be honest, I'm really gagging myself to get through this book at times right now.

But I am willing to give Milligan the benefit of the doubt. Why? Two reasons. One he was the one who unfortunately had to try and pick up the entire mess that Austen created. He couldn't just dump all the characters and start from scratch. So he had to try and work his way through all of that. Secondly, no only does he have to deal with Austen's screwups; but the meat of his run gets smacked in his face by a line wide story. So not only is he trying to clean eveything up; but he's trying to make sure all of his editorial mandates are up to snuff. I think we saw what Milligan can do successfully with this book with Foxx storyling. Thought he was starting to get a feel for this team overall, then *BAM* he gets smacked in the face with House of M. It will be the 4 Horsemen/Apocalypse storyline that will finally make or break Milligan as a X writer for me.

[fishtaco]

I can't stand Milligan's run. Everything about it is just so low quality. The characterizations of all of the characters he has used are all mildy off. The book has no direction, and nearly all of the issues so far take place at the mansion. Sal's wonderful art has deteriorated, which doesn't much help make this book enjoyable. There is wayyyy too much of a sexual undertone to the book, and it gets annoying as hell. Bizzare Love Triangle was so awful. The last crossover with Hudlin was ridiculous. I will be reading X-Men 182-186, but only because I am a big fan of Apocalypse. Peter Milligan does not comprehend the X-Men universe, or at least not enough to create and develop it. Either way, I think that removing him from the book is a top priority and a perfect first step in the direction of making the X-Men franchise as good as it was in the 80's. This book is on a par with Chuck Austen's run. Austen's run stunk, but atleast it was entertaining.

I hope Peter David takes over. He knows the characters, and he knows the X-Men.

[shaolin_dolomite]

Let's be honest, I'm really gagging myself to get through this book at times right now.

But I am willing to give Milligan the benefit of the doubt. Why? Two reasons. One he was the one who unfortunately had to try and pick up the entire mess that Austen created. He couldn't just dump all the characters and start from scratch. So he had to try and work his way through all of that. Secondly, no only does he have to deal with Austen's screwups; but the meat of his run gets smacked in his face by a line wide story. So not only is he trying to clean eveything up; but he's trying to make sure all of his editorial mandates are up to snuff. I think we saw what Milligan can do successfully with this book with Foxx storyling. Thought he was starting to get a feel for this team overall, then *BAM* he gets smacked in the face with House of M. It will be the 4 Horsemen/Apocalypse storyline that will finally make or break Milligan as a X writer for me.

i dont think you guys understand my theory.

chuck austin = peter milligan. they are the same person. its chuck austin writing under a new pen name again.

they are the same person. nothing has changed in this book since austin left.

[Crimson]

i dont think you guys understand my theory.

chuck austin = peter milligan. they are the same person. its chuck austin writing under a new pen name again.

they are the same person. nothing has changed in this book since austin left.

So Chuck Austen created a personna years before he'd need it to hide behind to destroy the X-Men from within.

Its Xorn isn't it?

[larroca fan]

I think the art is lacking right now due to Larroca being over work. This guy is a speed demon and is probably Marvel's fastest artist. I say give him a two month break and then have him come back fresh and then I think the art would be great again.



i agree with you totally your post was mostly what i would of said larroca needs more time off than just 2 issues but least he get's a break.

[shaolin_dolomite]

So Chuck Austen created a personna years before he'd need it to hide behind to destroy the X-Men from within.

Its Xorn isn't it?


Chuck Milligan is pretty insidious isn’t he? That dude plans like the emperor.

[Ant-Man]

I don't want to bash on Milligan's stuff in public, so I did what everybody else should do, and I removed X-Men from my pull list months ago. The only way Marvel will get the message is to hurt the book's sales figures.

[shaolin_dolomite]

im not bashing. im just talking with fellow readers trying to understand what i missing,
they only reason i keep picking it up is because it has to do with Apocalypse, and that might be important to whats going on.
but the whole point of putting a new writer on the book is to get another view, another perspective on the characters,
does anyone really feel that they have had that?

[Neolucifer]

But I don't think the comparisson to Austen's work is fair, really. You can definately tell a difference between Chuck Austen X-Men and Peter Milligan X-Men. There is a serious difference in tone, and pacing.

Chuck Austen had his moments, and some good ideas. He even executed some of those ideas pretty well. And the ones that weren't, were spectacular failures.

Peter Milligan on the other hand...has really just been boring. It hasn't been such a train wreck that you can't look away...it's just been very MEH.

I think that Milligan's work is SUB-par to Austen's run ....
With Austen (and i still cant believe i'm praising the guy and even wishing a bit he was still there ) while most of the time average , and even sometimes god awful , there were still good ideas and moments i still cant find in Milligan's xmen , from crappy soap (rogue/gambit) , badly written already before wronged heroes like Havok and Polaris , to Xmen needing help fighting sapiens hillbillies ...

Of course then you'd be right to ask me why i keep getting the book if my opinion of it is so low ... well for starters i love havok and Polaris , and cant see how else would i get to see them ... Lets be frank , they arent the most popular characters and easily prey for limbo whenever a new writer comes and wish to shake up the team's composition .
Another reason would be that i really wanted to give Milligan a chance , and time to settle in .
Then after golgotha he kept using plot point that could attract me , and trick me into trying the next arcs : at last a new potential threat to the rogue/gambit couple (in the end lame) , the book's involvment in Decimation (bad but i guess better than usual) , and the soon to come Apocalypse arc (what can i say i'm a s**ker for Pocy)

[Tommy]

There is wayyyy too much of a sexual undertone to the book, and it gets annoying as hell.
This coming from the Claremont fanboy?

Milligan's stuff would be really bad. Had we not just suffered through Dino Rachel and Danger.

Right now? It is better than average.

[Be Stiff]

So far I'm loving Milligan's run. It's a nice change from the styles we've seen before, and if feels fresssssssssssssh,

[Neolucifer]

I have no qualms about someone enjoying it (and hopes those who do dont have any with me disliking most of the book so far) , but i wonder wich part of it feels fresh and new ?

[Davideaux]

I think Milligan doesn't write characters that he's not personally invested in well.

[Faded]

Not bad but has never been great. Consistently good or okay.

[Babylon23]

I've only read the 2 trades (Golgotha and Bizarre Love Triangle) and enjoyed both. I can't really comment on the rest of the series.

Now this may get me burned at the stake or lynched, but I actually preferred those stories over Astonishing X-Men.

Gets ready to run

[Yoel]

Insecurities are one thing, but we don’t need to be bombarded with them. Iceman is an original xman for Christ sake, when the hell is someone going to write him like an adult, and not a frozen high school loser who never had a girlfriend in his life and has no idea what the hell he is doing in any type of situation. :mad:


Frickin' amen.
Sometimes I wonder if some of these writers have ever read an issue of X-men before they start working on the title.

Ok, thats a bit harsh, but the mis-characterisation of characters like Iceman and Havok is so damn frustrating.

[Be Stiff]

I think the best way to look at Milligan's X-run is to imagine it's David Lynch writing superheroes.

I'm not a fan of many of the characters, per se, but they have some vaugely interesting facets and that helps.

[Loestal]

Did anyone think that Larroca's art in X-Men #179 was just plain sloppy. I like Larroca's stuff, but I'll be damned if I liked this one. It just was bad.

[Twigglet]

The thing which all you are complaining about here, mostly seems to be bad characterization. Personally Cyclops getting hit by a sentinal doesn't really affect the way I view a story, but a lot of you ar emore into character develpment and continuity etc.

I personally feel the Decimation issues I've read have been good. The second best thing I've read on an X-book in a year.

Seriously, think how much crap he's had to deal with, first he was made to crossover with HUDLIN! He couldn't change much before with HOM coming up, now there is Decimation.

I see Decimation as a clean slate, now the writers are slightly more free to do what they want, and Milligans and Claremont's stories have imporved because of this.

[Erkoban]

I think the best way to look at Milligan's X-run is to imagine it's David Lynch writing superheroes.

Nonsense. David Lynch has a different style a different approach and uses different themes.

Milligan's X-men is nothing like David Lynch doing Superheroes.

Milligan has churned out some painfully obvious stories thus far, predictable and bland. Characters act in a similar fashion, with characters acting in a slightly exaggerated manner, his dialogue is painful to read because of this, because the characters are all stating the incredibly obvious.

Claremont can be redundant with explaining what we see on panel, but at least his use of words is something more prosaic and more elaborate, Milligan however lacks a feeling for drama and effect, and when his character state the obvious they do so in such a boring bland manner that it's just plain annoying to read on, his dialogue is superfluous.

Iceman sitting on the ground, all frozen up, and one character remarks "He's cold, I mean real cold." What did you expect? You're touching ice Sherlock.

I'm not a fan of many of the characters, per se, but they have some vaugely interesting facets and that helps.

I don't get why people keep jumping to Milligan's defense stating that his line-up is unfavorable. Uncanny has a cast of characters that's of equal standing, if not less popular, and Claremont has seen his cast being toyed with more than Milligan. Storm being written out of the books outside the title she starred in. Cannonball was shipped off to X-force. Sage was placed in the Hellfire club, but then Editors came and negated his ideas when they had already been implemented by giving the Hellfire club to Whedon (see interview with Mike Marts). X-23... need we say more about her?

[Neolucifer]

I personally feel the Decimation issues I've read have been good. The second best thing I've read on an X-book in a year.

Seriously, think how much crap he's had to deal with, first he was made to crossover with HUDLIN! He couldn't change much before with HOM coming up, now there is Decimation.

I see Decimation as a clean slate, now the writers are slightly more free to do what they want, and Milligans and Claremont's stories have imporved because of this.

Well about the Panther arc , despite the overwhelming hatred of huddlin around here , i still think that the best issue of the crossover was the Huddlin one , wich isnt saying much ...

Anyway sure he was getting editorial interferences like CC on his current run ... but guess what ? I'm currently happy they interfered for both writers . With decimation , instead of bland and insipid plots , and lame soaps , he had to deal with M day and the sentinels . Its so much better than what he usually gave us (even thought imo quite flawed) that i wonder how many points of the story of had the freedom to create . I think i'll only be able to re-judge his work , once a story arc that we can safely assume to be his doing , get released.
I still see those editorials interventions as a blessing for both x men writers , and milligan's book as the weakest of the current X books .

[Twigglet]

Well about the Panther arc , despite the overwhelming hatred of huddlin around here , i still think that the best issue of the crossover was the Huddlin one , wich isnt saying much ...

Anyway sure he was getting editorial interferences like CC on his current run ... but guess what ? I'm currently happy they interfered for both writers . With decimation , instead of bland and insipid plots , and lame soaps , he had to deal with M day and the sentinels . Its so much better than what he usually gave us (even thought imo quite flawed) that i wonder how many points of the story of had the freedom to create . I think i'll only be able to re-judge his work , once a story arc that we can safely assume to be his doing , get released.
I still see those editorials interventions as a blessing for both x men writers , and milligan's book as the weakest of the current X books .

Yeah, I to understand editorial influences, they are more often than not for good.

The Decimation event has definitly got me buying more X-books.

[shaolin_dolomite]

Yeah, I to understand editorial influences, they are more often than not for good.

The Decimation event has definitly got me buying more X-books.



Its not like Chuck Milligan and CC are the only two writer who have ever had a mandate dropped on them from on high.
You make the best stories you can from what you got to work with. Its that simple, if milligan doesn’t like the superhero’s he shouldn’t write them, if he doesn’t know how havoc talks then don’t force yourself, if you want to write about a flying booger and a dead girl, knock yourself out, if that’s what your good at, and that’s what you enjoy then, dood write all the booger and dead people stories you can.

For example Garth Ennis doesn’t like superheroes, and he doesn’t write for them because he knows he is not going to enjoy it, so he is not going to do his best work.

Not that im comparing Garth to CM (Chuck Milligan) they aren’t even in the same ballpark….

I’m just hoping he doesn’t ruin apocalypse, and make him randomly run into stuff, or get into some weird relationship with sinister, only to find out that sinister only has eyes for the newly resurrected Doug Ramsey….
Who is trying to get in between the relationship of rouge and gambit (isn’t everyone) because he feels he can really communicate with rouge on a level gambit never could, only to learn that he has lost his power of the spoken word because of house of m, and now he has a stutter, but not really because it was all in his head….
And Apocalypse in a moment of rage and fury, but with a weird sad clown type of smile (because he is the sad clown), will stand on high and ask “what the hell am I doing here, who are you people, get off my lawn.”
Only to see rouge behind him and she flames on in her new fire form, and says “im coming fer ya shuga” and sucks all the power from Apocalypse, turning her into Apocalypse (see that’s the twist) so now she/he will be all like “only the strang survive shuga” but just then Doug Ramsey, gets his power back and talks rouge back into her old sluttly self.
only to be kidnapped by sinister and made into the horseman of love.


See I really don’t want that to happen….

[Karl J. Barnes]

I don't want to bash on Milligan's stuff in public, so I did what everybody else should do, and I removed X-Men from my pull list months ago. The only way Marvel will get the message is to hurt the book's sales figures.

I agree and that is what I did. In fact, I only read Astonishing(when it comes out). The X-verse has gotten way too crazy to keep up with and I decided that I won't even try. Maybe, I'll get some TPBs to keep in touch, but the monthiles have gone by the way side.

[Turd_Ferguson]

It seems to me that everyone is always willing to dump on the current guy, and wish the previous guy was still here.

When Joe Casey was around, everyone (but me) seemed to hate it and think it was the worst stuff ever.

Then he got dumped for Austen, everyone hated Austen's work, and wished Joe Casey was back.

So we got rid of Austen for Milligan, and Milligan's getting dumped on, and people are wishing that Austen was back.


Personally, I don't think that Milligan's work is lighting the world on fire, but it's not that bad. It's far better than Austen's work, or the Crapfest that is Uncanny right now, but it's nowhere near as good as Joe Casey's and Grant Morrisson's work from a few years ago.

[Titan76]

Then he got dumped for Austen, everyone hated Austen's work, and wished Joe Casey was back.

So we got rid of Austen for Milligan, and Milligan's getting dumped on, and people are wishing that Austen was back.
No, I and I would think many don't want Casey and Austen back when we say get rid of Milligan. When we say we would like to see Milligan off the X-men, that means we want another NEW writer. Of corse, each new writer we get sucks like the last one so its become a lose lose station.

[xmanson]

To me, the probklem is the lame cast, not an individual level, but they are just pathetic as a group. No real reason to keep thei line up, the character don't vene seem to interact that much or try to create some kind of bond (even if hate) as we see in the other books.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Now here's a novel idea: maybe there shouldn't be three core X-Men books? Maybe the X-Men concept (or what's left of it) can't sustain three good monthly series?

[xmanson]

Now here's a novel idea: maybe there shouldn't be three core X-Men books? Maybe the X-Men concept (or what's left of it) can't sustain three good monthly series?

Sometimes I don't think it can sustain 1.

Oh, well...

[BlackKnight]

Now here's a novel idea: maybe there shouldn't be three core X-Men books? Maybe the X-Men concept (or what's left of it) can't sustain three good monthly series?

I think you hit the nail on the head. When it was just Uncanny, the book was amazing. Now we have three main X-Men books, two secondary team books and one solo ongoing, not to mention all the limited series going on.

I think that perhaps they have streched it a little thin.

Maybe if they did this it would be better.
Uncanny X-Men
Astonishing X-Men (two books are ok with the amount of team you have, but keep them seperate for the most part)

Secondary team books
New Mutants (or New X-men)

Solo books
wolverine

Drop all the limited series for a little while and let the main stuff rebuild.

Now as for Excalibur I think it would be much cooler if you disconnected it from the X-Men mostly.
Roster
Captain Britian
Psylocke
Black Knight
Banshee
Lionheart

This would make the team far more in tune with the Europe idea...

what do you guys think?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I can't believe people are defending Bizarre Love Triangle, actively praising it.

Am I missing something here?

The whole Rogue and Gambit 'having problems' concept is nothing new at all, and has been done infinitely better many, many times before. This story to me was clunky, stretched out, and at no point did it engage me. The fact of the matter is that this was a story that could have been told in two issues, if not a single one, and yet was stretched out across four, because that's the popular length of a story. There simply was not enough story, tension or impact to warrant it. It was predictable, badly characterised and simply didn't do anything for the characters involved. It was as plastic and two dimensional as Larocca's vacant artwork which accompanied it - and I really don't understand how or why he's now drawing that way.

At the moment X-Men is a dead book under Milligan. Post House of M it really doesn't seem to justify its existence. It isn't needed. There doesn't seem to be any new story in it to tell, or any characters being developed within it. It doesn't have a purpose any more. And I'd debate that we only need two central X-Books, anyway.

Either give this one to Brubaker instead - or take it out of service until there's more tale to tell. When Astonishing returns it's in serious danger of becoming totally without purpose. And if Milligan believes the solution to this is by bringing Doop, a character with no relevency whatsoever to the main X-Books - I think he's being fundamentally naive. Heck I know more people who hate this character more than any other from recent X-History, and I just cannot see where he is supposed to fit in.

It just doesn't work.

[Tommy]

Heck I know more people who hate this character more than any other from recent X-History, and I just cannot see where he is supposed to fit in.
Hmmm that is funny. I don't know anyone who read X-Force/X-Statix and didn't love Doop. I am more excited about this arch than any thing that any other writter in the X-books is churning out.

Plus you actualy need a senseof humor to enjoy Milligan's books.

[xmanson]

Hmmm that is funny. I don't know anyone who read X-Force/X-Statix and didn't love Doop. I am more excited about this arch than any thing that any other writter in the X-books is churning out.

Plus you actualy need a senseof humor to enjoy Milligan's books.


I really liked the titles and never gave a crap about Doop. Never bothered to "translate" his dialogues too.

So the fact he is supposed to be the "savior" of the title as some said and bring back Milligan's greatnes... nah, doesn't work for me.

[Tommy]

I really liked the titles and never gave a crap about Doop. Never bothered to "translate" his dialogues too.
What he says in the letters pages are particulalry funny...

[shaolin_dolomite]

I can't believe people are defending Bizarre Love Triangle, actively praising it.

Am I missing something here?

The whole Rogue and Gambit 'having problems' concept is nothing new at all, and has been done infinitely better many, many times before. This story to me was clunky, stretched out, and at no point did it engage me. The fact of the matter is that this was a story that could have been told in two issues, if not a single one, and yet was stretched out across four, because that's the popular length of a story. There simply was not enough story, tension or impact to warrant it. It was predictable, badly characterised and simply didn't do anything for the characters involved. It was as plastic and two dimensional as Larocca's vacant artwork which accompanied it - and I really don't understand how or why he's now drawing that way.

At the moment X-Men is a dead book under Milligan. Post House of M it really doesn't seem to justify its existence. It isn't needed. There doesn't seem to be any new story in it to tell, or any characters being developed within it. It doesn't have a purpose any more. And I'd debate that we only need two central X-Books, anyway.

Either give this one to Brubaker instead - or take it out of service until there's more tale to tell. When Astonishing returns it's in serious danger of becoming totally without purpose. And if Milligan believes the solution to this is by bringing Doop, a character with no relevency whatsoever to the main X-Books - I think he's being fundamentally naive. Heck I know more people who hate this character more than any other from recent X-History, and I just cannot see where he is supposed to fit in.

It just doesn't work.


But don’t you see, we need doop to get back to the status quo, without doop Polaris cant get her powers back. And if Polaris doesn’t get her powers back, then marvel cant crap on house of m any further.

Don’t you see, all the relevance of house of m is slowly but surely getting erased?
It starts with iceman, a guy who shouldn’t have his powers taken away in the first place if marvel was only going to give them back.
But 2ndly and more importantly he shouldn’t have lost his powers over a mental block to a situation that he had no clue about when he lost his powers to begin with. He didn’t know what happened to the rest of the mutants when he woke up, so how did he form a mental barrier, as it were, to a situation he had no knowledge of?

See kids that’s we call shoddy writing, shoddy editing, shoddy plot lining to an even that was supposedly all planed out and ready to go because the most important part of an even like house of m is the aftermath… is that what Joe Q, and the rest have been saying?

Now using the plot structure of Chuck Austin, (who I in no way want to return to the book) I surmise that Polaris will get her powers back based on her sure pure will to get her powers back. Its classic chuck Austin, person wants something so blatantly that we they are refused it, they go crazy and eventually get what they seek. In fact I think under chuck-e-boy it happened to Polaris at the wedding, but its kinda hazy because all the pot I had to smoke to forget the pain.

And its not the line up of the team, that’s the problem, it’s the writer and the editor that lets it happen.
I’m not a continuity whore, I just want good stories that make sense. Especially if you want me to buy a tie-in series and whatever scheming crossovers marvel comes up with.

Havok isn’t a bad character, his name alone makes him cool, yet no one has ever done anything with him, BKV’s Havok has personality, and he is dealing with the same crap in his book,
boy loves girl, girl is a pain in the ass, boy saves girl, boy gets blowjob.
Same crap, same people, one (BKV) I care about, the other (CM) I am not so happy with.

Some here will argue that mandates cripple his style,
Crap
Decimation should have been cool using (god I cant believe im saying this…) what Chris Claremont had in his one shot. But it wasn’t instead of dealing with what the X-fraken-men should be dealing with which is ya know, mutants in trouble, we get 3 issues of how Polaris, rogue, iceman, havoc, gambit, the guy that brings the bottled water, mystic, some dood named pulse, how their love life is doing after house of m.

Oh, and bobby got his powers back.

Status quo fellas, its what put food on CC table for all these years, who cares about consequences, and lasting effect, you want those, you have to wait till “Civil War” or “Illuminati” or “Planet Hulk” and then only for a couple months…

Oops, my fault.

A month after the event everything goes back to normal, because you know, Big Joe Q, says dead is dead, and if a mutie lost their powers, then the mutie lost their powers, and the sky is purple, and magneto was actually the matrix from D.C. that took over the magnus form, because super girl wouldn’t work in marvel yellow sun….

And in the end we get stuck with Chuck Milligan and the slow death, for a book that should be cool, that should be innovating, that should tell stories that are closer to home because they aren’t the team that solves the worlds problems, they are the team that solves the grass root problems.

But chuck milligan doesn’t know this, he read 3 or 4 back issues, from Austin’s stuff, thought this is how the book is written, like a saved by the bell marathon, but not nearly as funny, or original. (Zack Morris had a cell phone before anyone) and we suffer because we want Apocalypse, and we hope it isn’t going to be a repeat of what we have been delivered thus far.

[Tommy]

Don’t you see, all the relevance of house of m is slowly but surely getting erased?
That is your complaint?

Strikes me as really funny considering House of M was ment to erase all the "relevance" of Grant Morrison's run.

[shaolin_dolomite]

It seems that the only thing house of m has changed is the “notion” of all those other mutants out there, not really the ones that were in our face to begin with, well that and bringing it back to stan’s era of mutant being hated.,
and house of m wasn’t made to wipe out Morrison stuff (at least I don’t think so), CC did a fine job of that on his own,
what it was suppose to do, was tie in Morrison run to CC, to what is going on now in the rest of the marvel universe.
Which it did to an extent, we learn that wanda was doing stuff on her own for awhile, and house of m was just the latest and largest one…

What house of m was suppose to do is have lasting effect. The reason house of m is big is because anyone could have lost their power, “oh god, bobby don’t got his powers no more”,
That was suppose to mean something, an original member was hit, a guy from the beginning, he is out of the game for good, poor bobby, what is he going to do….
Wait never mind, he’s fine, he had a retard thing happen, its all good, move along nothing to see here…

And Morrison stuff gets such a bad rap on here, yeah Sebastian Shaw isn’t a telepath, but that was an error, the bathroom stuff between wolverine and sabertooth, more than made up for it, in the same issue.

But having beast charge forward toward sentinels in one panel, on then to have him knocked down, and have him ask for someone to end his life,

Wait, isn’t this the same beast the munched on a head of danger in astonishing….

I don’t get it, what did I miss, is marvel going to release a special add in page that will explain how he got from A to B.

But from CM work, I don’t really get that sense of the heaviness of the stuff going on behind the walls of the x-mansion. All I get is why bobby loves lorna, and alex loves his hand, and why lorna is just the girl next door who is alittle confused about the whole thing...

[Tommy]

Neither Claremont nor Whedon lost a character to House of M. It is extremely unfair to criticize Milligan for the same.

[shaolin_dolomite]

what are you talking about,
he(CM) lost a character IN house of m. if thats not diffenitive then what else is.
and its not even the way he has brougt iceman back, its the way in which he did it, becuase it made no sense.
so it is milligians fault he didnt read house of m, and it would not be his fualt if in fact he was a clone of Cuck Austin, and couldnt help himself, like superboy couldnt help he is part lex luther.
then i would understand, hell i would try to get the poor guy some DNA kinda help er something, but not knowing whats going on in the maxie series thats happend a month before,
no excuse. you must be a stinky writer, what other excuse could their be?

[Tommy]

what are you talking about,
he lost a character IN house of m. if thats not diffenitive then what else is.
Really? Becouse I saw Iceman step out and say "It is hot in here." Then I saw Iceman all human looking in HOM The Day After. And then I saw him still human looking in Milligan's X-men. He lost a secondary mutation that no one liked anyways.

I really fail to see what you are harping on.

[grampa doowop]

You know I've only read the first issue of the Golgotha arc, so I can't really comment on Milligan's run as a whole. But I think the real reason this book isn't succeeding (plot-wise anyway, not sure about sales) as many thought it would is that there is no real purpose for this team/squad of X-Men. The Astonishing team runs the school, the Uncanny team protects the public, and the Adjectiveless does what? Yes there will always be overlap, the other squads teach at the school, the Astonishing team protecting the public, etc., but Uncanny and Astonishing at least seem to have a core purpose. This team is nothing more than an overflow of X-Men with another monthly appearance by Wolverine and Emma. For Pete's sake...

...let Havok and Polaris retire/quit. It doesn't have to be permanently or even as a couple, but their characters have always been written to be reluctant X-Men and the whole insecure/li'l bro and mind controlled/psycho schtick is getting out of hand. They're excellent characters when written well, but I think they deserve a little bit more respect than they've been given. Give their characters time to breathe before making them active X-Men again. It gives the X-Men some reserve members to call on in crises and it makes perfect sense given their past tendencies.

...Rogue...poor Rogue. Okay so you've taken her Ms. Marvel powers away. Fine, stick with that. She's always had those powers for as long as we've known her. I really think this would be a great time to explore her resourcefulness as a character without them. Besides atomic flame powers just don't do it for me...I think Ms. Marvel's powers played to Rogue's personality very well. I mean Rogue's been raised and trained by a precog and an assassin and has access to the memories of combat-trained Carol Danvers. She is resourceful all on her own and this "grassroots" approach to her powers would really bring out the scrappy personality she has. If there's a spot in Uncanny, then Rogue would fit right in.

...Give Gambit a solo series. I know, I know the last two didn't last, but hear me out. I think Gambit's character has outlived his time as an X-Man. I see Gambit working his way into being a core Marvel Universe character who just happens to be a mutant and who was introduced in the X-Books. His personality and past give him endless possibilities as a solo character. I think Gambit's too much of a free spirit to simply settle at being an X-Man. Now Wolverine has a solo series and is also an X-Man, but unlike Gambit, Wolverine really found a family with the X-Men after his scarred past and enjoys "fathering" (Kitty, Jubilee, Maggott), "brothering" (Storm, Psylocke, Rogue) or bullying (Marrow) the team members, Gambit's never been written with a real compelling reason to stay. I think the only real reasons keeping him in the X-Men are his atonement for the Mutant Massacre and his connections to Rogue and Storm. Well the whole team knows about the Massacre and he can still keep in contact with Rogue and Storm and not be an X-Man. In fact, I think the only way Gambit's solo series would succeed is limiting his interaction with the X-Men. Yes the occasional visit or phonecall is fine, but no crossovers...do not make this an X-Book. Oh and bring back Fabian Nicieza. Either this or just retire Gambit until you can think of something to do with him.

...and last but not least Iceman. What hasn't been done with Bobby Drake. I haven't given his character much thought, but off the top of my head I could really see Bobby retiring as an X-Man and being a worker bee until someone knows exactly what to do with him.

[streator]

it's nothing special, but it's readable. along with salva's artwork, i think x-men is a decent enough book. it's an improvement over austen in my opinion.

[BlackKnight]

it's nothing special, but it's readable. along with salva's artwork, i think x-men is a decent enough book. it's an improvement over austen in my opinion.

A comic book equal of a monkey flinging poo is better then Austen's writing in my opinion. :D

[shaolin_dolomite]

Really? Becouse I saw Iceman step out and say "It is hot in here." Then I saw Iceman all human looking in HOM The Day After. And then I saw him still human looking in Milligan's X-men. He lost a secondary mutation that no one liked anyways.

I really fail to see what you are harping on.

why did he lose his powers? a mental block of a situation he knew nothing about.

i see.

ok then, how does one lose the 2nd mutation and not the first?
how does one lose the x-gene only kinda?

ice man lost his power, it hit home, Marvel, said that ice man lost his power, and then 3 issues into decemation, a story about the aftermath of the event that rocked the marvel u, he gets his powers back, and bobby is just a dumbass and didnt want to know how to turn it on, until he realized that he really missed being a mutie, poor bobby, i feel all this forced emotion, eveything is so sad and powerful and spelled out, but in a way that doesnt makes sense...but even that's not the problem, like i said, i have moved on, from the iceman got his powers back, that no longer concerns me, i have accepted it.

its chuck milligan, and his mis handling of a story that would have put the xmen on the map in a time, when he has nothing to compete with other than 2 mini's (son of m and Deadly, both of which are pretty good for a first ish)

you got CC on one hand, and nothing on the other, and a large group of people who dont like CC and are starving for a good on going xmen book, and we get a havok who lost his testicles in house of m in issue 1 only to grow them back soon after to hit Cyke in the mouth...
what am i suppose to feel, please for the love of mike someone tell me? am i suppose to concered for havok, is he angry about what happend, does he know what happend, is he sad, happy, lustful, what? i dont know,

thats why i started this thing, so someone would explain it to me.

[Tommy]

ok then, how does one lose the 2nd mutation and not the first?
how does one lose the x-gene only kinda?
Because a crazy reality warping Witch did it whilly nilly? When the entire world was changed Something around three times in recent memory quibbling about the details makes little sense. Obviously they are going to be fuzzy.

For all we know secondary mutations fooled the Scarlet Witch's hex, which would explain why Bobby lost perma-ice and Lorna's hair is still green while loosing her magnetic powers.

[shaolin_dolomite]

see they finnaly broke you.

[QOUTE\] quibbling about the details makes little sense[\QOUTE]

a mutant power is a mutant power, and it all comes with an x-gene.

so if she takes it away fine. i understand you cant make an omlette....
if she doesnt take them away, fine, once again ill understand.

but to say she takes them away, only to have them brought back the next ish, and have it not make sense, it's BAD WRITING.

its wrong, and they keep expecting us to pick up more books to understand whats going on but they cant keep the crap straight in the 3 books they have on the subject.

and chuck milligan is a clone.

but to be honest, other than the big names, i dont know who marvel has that you could put on this book,

all im asking for is alittle polish, you know, someone who cares about whats going down on their page, and someone who is not a clone.

[Tommy]

So you want STRICT adherence to something that was supposed to have been done on little more than a whim? The end of House of M was the THIRD time that the entire world was rewritten. And like I said on little more than a whim. Basically the Scarlet Witch picking up her toys and going home.

Claiming that but to say she takes them away, only to have them brought back the next ish, and have it not make sense, it's BAD WRITING.

The original story was a Dues ex machia for lowering the Mutant population. It was bad writing. Claiming that the Scarlet Witch randomly rewriting the entire planet is going to adhere to strict standards of scientific scrutiny ignores the fact that she is supposed to be batshit crazy and doing random things for seemingly no reason. As I said her hex could have just been fooled by secondary mutations and ignored the primary ones.

[shaolin_dolomite]

who is asking for some strick scientific anything. i beileive a man can shoot beams from his eyes, i can believe that a mutant who can control reality, can in fact control reality and the stress that would provide would, and should, drive that person "batshit".

thats all good.

but fooling a hex?

she said no more mutants. we have seen and heard, that the entire x-gene was removed. there was no half-assin it, you got an x-gene or you dont.

in house of m we were shown iceman just waking up, all normal looking.
we learn that he cant use his powers.

ok.

now chuck milligan comes in and says that the reason is his mind and his mind makes it stop working is becaue of all the sorrow that iceman has felt because of everyone else losing their power. and now that he doesnt have his powers, he really misses them, kinda like you dont know what you got till its gone....

only problem is, he lost his powers before he found out that everyone else lost theirs.

there is no way for that to effect him. its a cop out. its bad writing, it doesnt even make an effort to use the big summer blockbuster. its not science its common sense.

but to say that wanda took half of an x-gene is silly.

CM dropped the ball, poor dialouge, poor plots, poor character develpoment.

why you keep bring up house of m, in comparison is confusing me, house of m is gods word compared to x-men right now.

[streator]

his name is peter milligan, not chuck. it's even in the thread title.

[shaolin_dolomite]

^^who made the thread?

[The Mirrorball Man]

his name is peter milligan, not chuck. it's even in the thread title.
I think he was trying to make a point, possibly trying to draw a parallel between Chuck Austen and Peter Milligan.

[shaolin_dolomite]

I think he was trying to make a point, possibly trying to draw a parallel between Chuck Austen and Peter Milligan.


not possibly good sir i am drawing a parallel.

chuck milligan is a clone of chuck austin, ill bet my first born.

[The Mirrorball Man]

not possibly good sir i am drawing a parallel.

chuck milligan is a clone of chuck austin, ill bet my first born.
Sorry I was a little confused by the chaotic way you've been presenting your argument.

Of course, if you had read anything else than X-Men written by Peter Milligan, you would realize that your claim is ludicrous, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[shaolin_dolomite]

i dunno man, its uncanny how similar they are....

[Tre Styles]

I'm not defending Peter Milligan's X-Men by any stretch, but Wanda's reality warping powers show that things do not always happen the way that she says. Also there was an intervention by Dr. Strange as well that partially blocked "the no more mutants thing". As far as Bobby goes, it's possible that as he woke up and watched the news and heard what was going on at the mansion, he may have developed the mental block that he too had lost his powers, when he in fact didn't. Throughout this Decimation event, we see that mutants have lost their powers, but everyone was affected the same. Some mutants went back to normal looking humans, others had reminders of who they once were....some died because of it. So the effect wasn't just the total removal of the mutant gene, which again was probably due to Dr. Strange's portion. In times of extreme situations, I could see certain things happening. But on the other hand, it did seem as if Bobby was immediately affected by the Wanda curse, without having a way of knowing about it, he shouldn't be reverting back to type. So, it's a catch-22 situation right now. Plus we all know that the powers in the sky, and it's coming back anyways....maybe he just got his early. Who knows?
Now as to the whole Milligan's X-Men thing. I do have a problem with the way the characters are being written. Yet, I enjoyed his X-Statix and X-Force stuff...and why? Because the characters were all new. He could write them as he wanted too, without all the backhistory and so on. Now we see him trying this style on the X-Men, and things just are clicking the same.
The inconsistancies with Havok. Iceman's whininig. Polaris as the dumb boy toy. It gets a bit tiring. Mystique wanting to "hook" Rogue up with her boy, Pulse. Cyclops being a tightwad....well, most of that part is right. ;)
But seriously, it's getting old.
As someone said before, what is the purpose of this X-Team? I'm actually glad that Havok and Polaris left, even though most of that scene made very little sense whatsoever.
As far as Chuck Austen coming back? Not I said the cat. I rather have 2 X-Books than 3, if we can't find a purpose for this one and fast......I say let BKV write this title, or maybe even Chuck Dixon, that'd be different.

[The Mirrorball Man]

i dunno man, its uncanny how similar they are....
Is it? What has Chuck Austen written that was similar to Peter Milligan's Rogan Gosh?

[Tommy]

but fooling a hex?
Yes. It was a world wide rewrite. it is not like the Scarlet Witch knows anything about Genetics, plus she is insane. And it was not like she sat there pondering it for a long time. She said “no more mutants” but meant “98% of Mutants are gone.” That make sense to you?

she said no more mutants. we have seen and heard, that the entire x-gene was removed. there was no half-assin it, you got an x-gene or you dont.
And we have also seen and heard in the past there is more than one gene that controls mutation. And we have been told that She removed the potential for mutation from humanity. Thus there is no point for the continued existence for the X-men.

only problem is, he lost his powers before he found out that everyone else lost theirs.
He woke up normal. Pretty shocking turn of events in the first place. I would assume that after spending a few weeks as ice the first thing he would do is not ice up. He walks out into the hall and everyone else was depowered. Why wouldn't he assume he lost his powers?

but to say that wanda took half of an x-gene is silly.

Certainly not as silly as a witch suddenly snapping for no reason and warping reality once to kill her teammates, warping reality twice to make half the world's population mutants and everyone happy, and then warping reality a third time to undo the first two reality warps only not.

why you keep bring up house of m, in comparison is confusing me, house of m is gods word compared to x-men right now.

Actually you were the one who brought up House of M in the first place.

Personally I think you are just finding piss poor reasons for justifying your own dislike of Peter Milligan. If you don't like him that is fine, but to come up with lame reasons is over the limit.

[shaolin_dolomite]

As far as Bobby goes, it's possible that as he woke up and watched the news and heard what was going on at the mansion, he may have developed the mental block that he too had lost his powers, when he in fact didn't.

so bobby wakes up ice, turns on the tv, sees what happens "oh my god, no more muties"
mental block, no more ice.

i see.

and once again i dont have a problem with iceman getting his powers back,
its how it was explained that he got his powers back.
its doesnt match up. it doesnt flow from the story we were told in house of m. and since this is a tie-in, ya think it would alittle right?

[shaolin_dolomite]

Is it? What has Chuck Austen written that was similar to Peter Milligan's Rogan Gosh?

thats not x-men which is the only thing that i have read by him, but i did want to believe the hype surrounding this guy.

[Tre Styles]

so bobby wakes up ice, turns on the tv, sees what happens "oh my god, no more muties"
mental block, no more ice.

i see.

and once again i dont have a problem with iceman getting his powers back,
its how it was explained that he got his powers back.
its doesnt match up. it doesnt flow from the story we were told in house of m. and since this is a tie-in, ya think it would alittle right?


Ah yes Shaolin. Outstanding. ;)

Ribbin' ya....anyways man. Let me put it this way....

because of Wanda's reality warping effect, Bobby woke up normal again...no longer stuck in his permenant ice state as he was told....he goes downstairs, watches the news, what have you....he sees that people have lost their powers....he assumes, since he was told he was going to be ice boy forever, that he too did as well....until Emma goes and plays psionic connect the dots for him.....voila! Bobby is Iceman again.

Then again, you have a point as well. .....
*poof(

[shaolin_dolomite]

Yes. It was a world wide rewrite. it is not like the Scarlet Witch knows anything about Genetics, plus she is insane. And it was not like she sat there pondering it for a long time. She said “no more mutants” but meant “98% of Mutants are gone.” That make sense to you?


when those 2% where protected by the master of magic in the marvel universe, it sure does.
Doc strange protected that 2%, wanda didnt choose to leave that 2% alone.

And we have also seen and heard in the past there is more than one gene that controls mutation. And we have been told that She removed the potential for mutation from humanity. Thus there is no point for the continued existence for the X-men

but not the 2% that doc strange saved right?
well, there's a use right there....

He woke up normal. Pretty shocking turn of events in the first place. I would assume that after spending a few weeks as ice the first thing he would do is not ice up. He walks out into the hall and everyone else was depowered. Why wouldn't he assume he lost his powers?

once again, thats fine, be depowered or not depowered.
but dont tell me that its a MENTAL BLOCK thats depowered you, because of the mass whatever you want to call it that came from the house of m.
chuck milligan said that bobby lost his power, because of the thought of everyone else losing their power, thus crippled his ablity to turn on his power.
bobby had no knowledge of the events that happend in house of m, he could not know what everyone else was doing, thus that could not be the reason his powers didnt work.
he either a.) should have stayed depowered
or b.) never been depowered in the first place.

Certainly not as silly as a witch suddenly snapping for no reason and warping reality once to kill her teammates, warping reality twice to make half the world's population mutants and everyone happy, and then warping reality a third time to undo the first two reality warps only not.


its not house of m that is the problem.
the chuck milligan, protraly of the the team of the x-men.

[Tommy]

when those 2% where protected by the master of magic in the marvel universe, it sure does. Doc strange protected that 2%, wanda didnt choose to leave that 2% alone.
How about No. Dr. Strange only protected those mutants that were not just on the island, but in his general area. And he needed the help of Emma Frost to pull it off. Colossus in Russia should have been depowered since he had no protection from Dr. Strange.

Personally I think everyone misses the level of subtle satire in Milligan’s X-men run. Like I said you need a sense of humor to read and enjoy it.

The perfect example of this IS the Iceman bit. We are told that HOM is going to be a big, ground breaking, never reversed major event that will change the X-books forever. Anyone who believed that hype obviously had not been paying attention to the last twenty years of X-men issues. Any change is eventually over turned. When people change powers, they change back. When people die, they resurrect. Now when Iceman looses his powers which we were told would be final and never reversed with in two issues he has them back. And not even back to perma-ice, but back to absolutely normal Bobby. Hilarious satire.

[The Mirrorball Man]

That's not X-Men, which is the only thing that I have read by him. But I did want to believe the hype surrounding this guy.
Don't you think you should read something else than "X-Men" before you're accusing Peter Milligan of being a "clone"?

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I'd like to go back to EMMAFROST's earlier comment about needing to have a sense of humour to read Milligan's stuff.

I think that could be a great part of the problem here. So far, through the Golgotha arc and through Bizarre Love Triangle, I've actually not seen an awful lot of humour. Soap opera level angst between Alex, Lorna and Bobby? Yes. Similarly levelled angst between Gambit, Rogue and Mystique? Yes. But humour? No. But then as a core X-Boojk adjectiveless has never really been a humour book, it's role has always deliberately been very much a canon book, which has not shared the lighthearted nature that the x-books many satelight titles can afford.

Milligan had that in X-Force/X-Statix, because he had the freedom. But on X-Men it isn't the right style or approach. And maybe that's the problem. He has the mandate of a serious book now, and just doesn't know how to write one of those, without bowing to extreme cliche, and plots which have been done over and over...

Granted he hasn't the best team. Let's be fair, the characters he has had at his disposal have primarily been the X-Men that nobody else wanted, or really knew what to do with. Most of their stories have all been told, long ago. But the problem also remains that despite this Milligan doesn't have any new ideas himself. None. So he just writes the same old trite stories explored before, which can come accross as nothing more than tired and contrived, because that's all they are.

And yet I actually liked his final issue, in conituity, before House of M. It wasn't bad at all. The problem was of course that for this one issue he had access to a whole host of characters he'll never normally be allowed to touch...

It annoys me greatly how poorly he has written both Iceman and Polaris' poweras back in. Less than two mainstream issues and he gives them back. No tension, no think through, just ad, bad, stupid writing. Such a brilliant build up when Bobby lost his powers initially, and cheaply bringing them back so quickly? He could have spent six months without them, surely? A decent chance for Milligan to do some proper character development and he decides not to bother.

I don't know how to take the guy anymore. If he believes Doop will be what brings readers into keeping getting this book the man's a prat, and really needs to get his priorities straight. At the end of the day there were still interesting things he could have done with a number of the characters he was given. But he either couldn't even see it, or didn't feel confident enough in his own abilty to try.

This is a smaller series writer, pushed too big too soon. He's out of his depth, and realistically I would be more than happy to see Ed Brubaker take his place, if there was any truth in those rumours...

[streator]

^^who made the thread?
you, i now see. but now that i get why you're combining the two, i still don't really agree. at best you've got the authors as writing "not really important but not really crappy" stories and characters.

[Erkoban]

Personally I think everyone misses the level of subtle satire in Milligan’s X-men run. Like I said you need a sense of humor to read and enjoy it.


Are we back to this line of reasoning?

"If you don't like it, it's because you're too dumb too understand its brilliance."

I have a sense of humour, but X-men is still bland, flat, and uninspired.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Are we back to this line of reasoning?

"If you don't like it, it's because you're too dumb too understand its brilliance."

I have a sense of humour, but X-men is still bland, flat, and uninspired.
No, I think the point is "Milligan doesn't really like the X-Men, so he's writing his run as a satire and some X-Men fans might not like that. Me, although I'm a huge fan of Milligan, I don't think the satire he's writing is particularly brilliant, but it's hard to deny that it's there.

[Tommy]

"If you don't like it, it's because you're too dumb too understand its brilliance."
I didn't say it. You did.

And as far as I know no one else has made that point. Milligan is a Satireist.

[Tre Styles]

So this whole run is about satire? I wish I had got the memo. :rolleyes:

[Erkoban]

So this whole run is about satire? I wish I had got the memo. :rolleyes:

Didn't you hear, post-modernist thinking is hip again.

It's not boring, bland, run-of-the-mill, ill-paced and riddled with faulty characterisation... it's "satire" or "witty" nononono wait wait wait... get this one... it's "a deep and meaningfull commentary on the state the industry is in".

[The Mirrorball Man]

Didn't you hear, post-modernist thinking is hip again.

It's not boring, bland, run-of-the-mill, ill-paced and riddled with faulty characterisation... it's "satire" or "witty" nononono wait wait wait... get this one... it's "a deep and meaningfull commentary on the state the industry is in".
I don't understand why it's so hard to accept. Just because it's satire doesn't mean you have to like it. It doesn't even mean it's any good. There's no need to feel threatened.

[Tre Styles]

Didn't you hear, post-modernist thinking is hip again.

It's not boring, bland, run-of-the-mill, ill-paced and riddled with faulty characterisation... it's "satire" or "witty" nononono wait wait wait... get this one... it's "a deep and meaningfull commentary on the state the industry is in".


lol...Give me a couple of examples of this "deep and meaningful commentary on the state the industry is in" that are found in Milligan's recent arc.....Seriously though, I usually get satire, and I don't see how Milligan's X-Men is commenting on anything right now. So those who say it is a satire, please, for real...show me some examples of what you're talking about. It might help me be able to read Milligan's X-Men with more clarity and understanding. Maybe it'll be all cleared up when Doop shows up?

[Blackcat]

Maybe it'll be all cleared up when Doop shows up?

He won't, it was a joke on internet (the X-Men cover with him and Polaris)

[Erkoban]

I don't understand why it's so hard to accept.

And I don't understand why things need to be made into something they're not, in order for some to justify their likings.

People comment on the uninspired tales, the flawed and faulty characterisation, the dialogue, and the title being mainly directionless, and here you come to whisk everything away by claiming it's satire.

Who says it's satire? Not I. I'm not going to find the proof of your claim, so go ahead and show me where the satire is.

And also note that we're talking about his work on X-men, so no use in bringing up other works, because if you're going to do that, you might just as well make that claim that every single piece of fiction the man ever wrote was satire. Just because X-statix was satirical doesn't mean his run on X-men is.

And if X-men is satirical, then why would Uncanny be satirical, or Astonishing, or Jubilee?

Just because it's satire doesn't mean you have to like it.

Just because you like it doesn't mean that it's satire or even anything deeper than just shallow entertainment. Unless you're willing to accept that every piece of post-modernist thinking on a title, including Uncanny X-men, is valid.

It doesn't even mean it's any good.

You've got that right skippy, it just seems like some people are trying to weasel their way out of just stating that. It appears some people feel a need to give it an edge that makes it slighty less crap.

Almost as if shruging and pointing "but at least it's satire, and you need to have a sense of humour to understand it."

There's no need to feel threatened.

likewise.

[Dr Manolis Dooplove]

He won't, it was a joke on internet (the X-Men cover with him and Polaris)

nope, i can pretty much guarantee you that this cover is the real deal :D

[Dr Manolis Dooplove]

Granted he hasn't the best team. Let's be fair, the characters he has had at his disposal have primarily been the X-Men that nobody else wanted, or really knew what to do with. Most of their stories have all been told, long ago. But the problem also remains that despite this Milligan doesn't have any new ideas himself. None. So he just writes the same old trite stories explored before, which can come accross as nothing more than tired and contrived, because that's all they are.

i asked mike marts during the cbr chat and he admitted that milligan wasnt really allowed to choose his own cast for the title, he was given these characters. I really think there should be a reshuffling of characters around the books.

as for new ideas, I think he's been doing fine. Golgotha in itself was a very good concept, especially the issue where all the x-men had to lock themselves in the mansion to ''sweat the craziness out''. Brilliant idea. And then we had Bizarre love triangle, which although a bit rough around the edges was based on a good idea, as we hadnt really seen mystique take an interest in her daughter's life in recent time and it maeks sense for her to do so, and in this manner !!

I think Milligan has taken a cue from Austen's soap opera leanings and pumped it up a few amps to satirize the aspect of soap opera in the mutant titles. I'm still loving this ride, and i really hope he's not the one being replaced by Brubaker. I'd much rather see Whedon go if i had to choose...

[seaidan]

nevermind.

[The Mirrorball Man]

And I don't understand why things need to be made into something they're not, in order for some to justify their likings.
I don't like it. Although I love Peter Milligan, I think his X-Men run stinks. Still, it's satire.

And if X-men is satirical, then why would Uncanny be satirical, or Astonishing, or Jubilee?
I don't know. You brought that up. You tell me.

Just because you like it
I don't.

doesn't mean that it's satire
Of course not. But it's satire anyway.

or even anything deeper than just shallow entertainment.
It can be satire and shallow entertainment. There's not contradiction here.

When we say it's satire, we're not saying "the time of satire has come, good folks, and though you X-Men fans are too dim to understand it, everything you like about the X-Men will be wiped out and replaced by tongue-in-cheek sarcasm". The X-Men are still the X-Men, they're still exactly the same, but Peter Milligan has injected a dose of satire into his (mediocre) writing. It doesn't mean you have to set your Wolverine plush doll on fire or anything.

[twilight]

He won't, it was a joke on internet (the X-Men cover with him and Polaris)

Wow thanks for the spoilers Mr.Milligan.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Are we back to this line of reasoning?

"If you don't like it, it's because you're too dumb too understand its brilliance."

I have a sense of humour, but X-men is still bland, flat, and uninspired.

I agree with you here, mate. I too have a sense of humour. I'm a Brit. It practically comes in our blood (And when your, national figurehead becomes George Bush jnr's poodle, God knows you need it). I love lighter more humourous notes and comments, and in jokes in comics. - it's what makes a book stand out of the crowd, being able to poke fun at its own genre. Joss Whedon does it very well in Astonishing. I loved the early parts of the original run of Excalibur for precisely this reason.

My problem with Milligan's X-Men being tagged as satarical is that - if this is what it is supposed to be - it just isn't working. I don't really see it there at all. If there is a subtle - and by Christ it must be really, really, really, really, really subtle :D - It just isn't coming across that way. It's just appearing as hastily scrawled together bad soap opera writing, which is not amusing because it appears to all to be taking itself as nothing more than utterly seriously.

It does not work.

[Alan2099]

If it's satire it's the absolue worst case of satire I've ever read.

This discussion reminds me of the Morrison discussions, "It doesn't suck, it's a metaphor."

I have a crazy iea. Why not right stories that are actually are what they're supposed to be about? Is there something wrogn with playing the materia straight?

[Turd_Ferguson]

Isn't the entire point of a satire supposed to be that most people don't realize that it's satire?

[Titan76]

Isn't the entire point of a satire supposed to be that most people don't realize that it's satire?
Even if its a satire it sucks.

[The Mirrorball Man]

I have a crazy idea. Why not write stories that actually are what they're supposed to be about? Is there something wrongn with playing the material straight?
No, there's nothing wrong with it, and despite what some fanboys might think, there's nothing inherently wrong with writing a satire either.

[Doom Hammer]

He won't, it was a joke on internet (the X-Men cover with him and Polaris)

Yeah, except that Doop has already been partially spotted in the pages of X-Men. So yeah...just no.

Just curious, where did you hear this? Or is this something you established by yourself? 'Cuz it's looking really false.

[shaolin_dolomite]

First off this is not a satire,

The emperor’s new cloths is a satire.

Saying this is a satire is like saying Megaforce, is a documentary of military covert operations.
(which its not.)

Chuck Milligian doesn’t write this book well, that all there is to say, he has weak characterization, weak plot, and an abundant supply of crap to which he spreads over the pages.

[The Mirrorball Man]

First off this is not a satire,

The emperor’s new clothes is a satire.
No, "The Emperor's New Clothes" is a fable.

[shaolin_dolomite]

sat·ire ( P ) Pronunciation Key (str)
n.

A literary work in which human vice or folly is attacked through irony, derision, or wit.


so like i was saying,
the emperor's new clothes is a satire...

[The Sword Is Drawn]

sat·ire ( P ) Pronunciation Key (str)
n.

A literary work in which human vice or folly is attacked through irony, derision, or wit.


so like i was saying,
the emperor's new clothes is a satire...

I see none of this in Milligan's X-Men. If he is deliberately attacking the X-Books as a genre, by writing shit stylised soap opera tat, then maybe? But realistically it just comes across as bad writing strung out over as many issues as he can get away with...

[shaolin_dolomite]

nor do i good sir,

so to say that chuck milligian's work is a satire of the entire state of affairs of the x-vesrse is dumb.

just admit he is a poor writer who doesnt want to be working on the title in the first place, and right now as the writer of x-men he licks monkey balls.

and the hype surronding this guy, was just hype.

[Dr Manolis Dooplove]

the ''hype'' surrounding the guy is based on the hundreds of quality stories he has written in the past, like Shade the Changing man, Human Target, and X-Statix!

i'm not familiar with the proper terminology, so maybe satire isnt the proper word for this.
in my opinion, Pete Milligan has been given a mainstream X-title, and he has decided to write it... like an x-title!

For whatever reasons in the first issues he chose to relinquish his usual tricks from previous work, like having a different character narrate each issue which let sus take a look into the mindstate of the characters. This way he has denied the reader access into the thought process of the characters, and we are just left with their actions to judge the characterisation from. The characterisation can therefore seem crude and ''crap'' to most readers, but there are a lot of subtleties to them that dont show at first reading. Think about how uneven the X-Force stories would have felt if we didn't get guy or edie or tike narrating? x-force 116 would have been soulless without Zeitgeist's narration.
The narration has been creepnig in bit by bit inside the title, and i dont know if it was pete's decision or the editor's to take it out in the first place. i'm still having great hopes for this title and i am sure the apocalypse saga and doop will prove me right :D

[Gaveedra 6]

the ''hype'' surrounding the guy is based on the hundreds of quality stories he has written in the past, like Shade the Changing man, Human Target, and X-Statix!

i'm not familiar with the proper terminology, so maybe satire isnt the proper word for this.
in my opinion, Pete Milligan has been given a mainstream X-title, and he has decided to write it... like an x-title!

For whatever reasons in the first issues he chose to relinquish his usual tricks from previous work, like having a different character narrate each issue which let sus take a look into the mindstate of the characters. This way he has denied the reader access into the thought process of the characters, and we are just left with their actions to judge the characterisation from. The characterisation can therefore seem crude and ''crap'' to most readers, but there are a lot of subtleties to them that dont show at first reading. Think about how uneven the X-Force stories would have felt if we didn't get guy or edie or tike narrating? x-force 116 would have been soulless without Zeitgeist's narration.
The narration has been creepnig in bit by bit inside the title, and i dont know if it was pete's decision or the editor's to take it out in the first place. i'm still having great hopes for this title and i am sure the apocalypse saga and doop will prove me right :D
That's a really good observation. Milligan's 1st person character narration gives his stories a beautiful feel - which X-Men has had none of. I think a single issue narrated by Polaris would make most Milligan haters shut up for a while, since PM's obviously in her head most of all.
A bit of illumination for us long-time readers who are sort of baffled by how the heroes are acting would go a long way towards making this book a better read.

And for the record, Milligan's the first writer to ever make me interested in Gambit.

[Chiasm]

I wasn't familiar with Milligan prior to this run on X-men. But he is quickly becoming my all time most hated X-writer even surpassing Joe Casey. Milligan's dialogue is easily the worst dialogue I've ever heard in any comic. It doesn't sound natural and I feel like he's writing for 4th graders.

[DDM]

I wasn't familiar with Milligan prior to this run on X-men. But he is quickly becoming my all time most hated X-writer even surpassing Joe Casey. Milligan's dialogue is easily the worst dialogue I've ever heard in any comic. It doesn't sound natural and I feel like he's writing for 4th graders.

Peter Milligan wrote DC's Shade, the Changing Man in 1990 with some new penciler guy, Chris Bachalo:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/73328823244.1.GIF

Milligan's strengths comes with left of center idea & more obscure characters. Basically, Milligan's Shade The Changing Man was absorbed into DC's Vertigo line with Swamp Thing, Animal Man & Neil Gaiman's The Sandman.

Milligan even did well with Marvel's X-Statix because they were his own creations & disconnected from the X-Men. Peter Milligan is not a good match for a flagship title for X-Men due to his ignorance about specific characters & the bumbling editors themselves don't know Marvel's history either. Put the two together & you'll get a mess of a book.

[Chiasm]

Ok, I actually kind of liked X-statix so I guess I am more familiar with him than I thought. But his X-books remind of me of bad soap opera writing. I think thats what gets me the worst. The forced, stilted, and unnatural dialogue going on in the various love triangles. I think his plotting is ok, theres been better and theres been worse. But the dialogue is killing me. And your probably right about the unfamiliarity being a large part of the problem.

[Gaveedra 6]

I really feel like the creative X-teams are mis-matched. It's terribly ironic. Cleremont and Larocca have delivered stories that fans have gone crazy for. And Milligan and Bachalo have been suprerb together (see: avove, Shade). Why aren't the editors putting two and two together??

[Turd_Ferguson]

sat·ire ( P ) Pronunciation Key (str)
n.

A literary work in which human vice or folly is attacked through irony, derision, or wit.


so like i was saying,
the emperor's new clothes is a satire...

I agree with you about the emperor's new clothes, but by your own defition, Adjectiveless X-Men is also a satire.

[shaolin_dolomite]

left of center is ok, as long as cyke isnt running into giant sentinal feet.

Milligan even did well with Marvel's X-Statix because they were his own creations & disconnected from the X-Men. Peter Milligan is not a good match for a flagship title for X-Men due to his ignorance about specific characters & the bumbling editors themselves don't know Marvel's history either. Put the two together & you'll get a mess of a book.


i agree with that.

[shaolin_dolomite]

I agree with you about the emperor's new clothes, but by your own defition, Adjectiveless X-Men is also a satire.

x-men really isnt, its missing the irony, derision, and/or wit.

[Gaveedra 6]

left of center is ok, as long as cyke isnt running into giant sentinal feet.
I think that's more Sal's fault. It should have looked like Cyke was really getting wonked, instead of just not looking where he was going and whoops! ran into a Sentinel boot. The whole battle was just drawn really poorly. My partner was reading it last night and was like "WTF is going on in this panel..?"

[Erkoban]

I really feel like the creative X-teams are mis-matched. It's terribly ironic. Cleremont and Larocca have delivered stories that fans have gone crazy for. And Milligan and Bachalo have been suprerb together (see: avove, Shade). Why aren't the editors putting two and two together??

Unfortunately the Bachalo that drew Shade the Changing man is no more. His style evolved and went into a completely different direction...

imagine Shade with Bachalo's current style...

[shaolin_dolomite]

I think that's more Sal's fault. It should have looked like Cyke was really getting wonked, instead of just not looking where he was going and whoops! ran into a Sentinel boot. The whole battle was just drawn really poorly. My partner was reading it last night and was like "WTF is going on in this panel..?"


thats just one example of many, not all of them can be sal's fault,

how about beast rushing forward into battle, only to ge knocked away, then asking for someone to ease his pain into the next world...

thats not what beast does, thats not what beast says,

thats not beast, thats chuck milligan.

[Gaveedra 6]

Unfortunately the Bachalo that drew Shade the Changing man is no more. His style evolved and went into a completely different direction...

imagine Shade with Bachalo's current style...
It would still suit Milligan's wacky writing better than Sal's deadpan stuff. Milligan may just be the writer to reign Bachalo in some. But we'll probably never know....

[Turd_Ferguson]

x-men really isnt, its missing the irony, derision, and/or wit.

So you hate how stupid it is, but you don't think it is making fun of it? No offense, but it seems like you are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

[Neolucifer]

i also fail to see in wich way it is a satire .Since , it only sounds to some of us , as just a case of bad writing , the satire thing come off as a pretentious cop out a la "see its normal you cant love it or understand it , its a satire, wich is way over your head!!" ....

Especially when it being indeed a satire ( and thats a big IF imo ) doesnt necessarily make it any better , or i'd rather less crapy ...

Thought its sometimes hidden , at some point the satire , its wits humour an irony should be at some point apparent to its readers , well at least not just a handful .