All Star Batman - Worst comic, ever??

[drpblunt]

OK I'm not in the position to offer my own insight, i currently live in Finland (there is only one comic store here and they dont sell new releases only trades) but from what my friends back home are telling me this book seems to be the worst scripted at the very least.

like this gem... "what are you, retarded. Im the freaking Batman!" or something to that effect (seems to me Gotham is in South Boston now, lol)

anyway, i would like to hear your opinions before i make my next online order

[Lubichev]

As a joke, it is brilliant.

[Forefinger]

I got issues 1 & 2. I won't be getting any more. 'Nuff said?

[Cayman]

I don't think it was the worst comic ever, it was interesting and a little jawdropping. Was it good? I'm not sure I'd go that far.

Cay

[Tomodachi]

It is very awkward to me. I think I get what Frank Miller is trying to do, but I'm not sure if it works, or is going to work. I haven't given up on it quite yet though. I'm close.

[jwd]

Its been a long time since I've read one worse than it.

[malephoenix]

I won't be spending any more money on it, that's for sure. (I mean, there's so much stuff to buy from Kirkman and I need to catch up on Invincible. Why would I lose money to this bizarro stuff?)

[dazzler_slave]

Y'Know, I am actually enjoying it. I love the art, and the story is a nice diversion from the regular Bat titles. Is it over the top? Sure, but it is a fun read. See, the thing I like about All Stars is that my usual continuity obsessed self can relax because it is like an Elseworlds, only closer to the original concept than they tend to be.

[EyesWideOpen]

if you want to read another regular Batman story than read one of the 10 different Bat books and minis that are going on every month. if you want to read an out of continuity Frank Miller Bat story where he's allowed to go ape shit crazy then this is the book for you.

[Panman]

I can handle the way Batman behaves like an asshole in the other Batman comics, but the thing about ASB&R is that it makes it so that Batman is not just a dick at the moment, but that he has always been a dick.

[stealthwise]

It's better than the Superpro comic, but that doesn't really mean anything.

[jerrymcl89]

Anything as polarizing as ASB&R is automatically not the worst ever - a true worst ever would be something no one has any interest in. This is either a very bold departure from the established view of Batman, or a very memorable trainwreck (or maybe both). Either way, it does have some merits.

[Guts/Batman]

My answer to the original post:

Oh HELL no!!!

There are many. Many comics that are worse than this.

[Babylon23]

I can think of a fair few comics that came out this year that are worse than ASB&R. So no, I don't think it's the worst comic ever written.

Actually, I think this and The Dark Knight Strikes Back suffer from High Expectation Syndrome. Miller wrote Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, one of the most critically acclaimed and respected Batman stories ever written. I think some fans (not all, of course, just some) expect a landmark, groundbreaking story from Miller every time he writes Batman.

I find ASB&R to be a fun read, and the only Batman title that interests me at the moment. Others despise it. I'd recommend just checking it out for yourself when you get the chance (which sounds like it won't be until the trade comes out).

[Lord Grog]

I did hear that Miller was being kidded about the book at the DC RRP in Canada last month.

It was the worst Batman book I ever read, if not the worst comic book in general.

LG

[Guts/Batman]

Seriously, if this comic wasn't a Batman comic, would we be saying this was the worst comic ever?

[megladon8]

Y'Know, I am actually enjoying it. I love the art, and the story is a nice diversion from the regular Bat titles. Is it over the top? Sure, but it is a fun read. See, the thing I like about All Stars is that my usual continuity obsessed self can relax because it is like an Elseworlds, only closer to the original concept than they tend to be.


It's pretty much DC's version of Ultimate.

That being said, I am enjoying it.

[megladon8]

Seriously, if this comic wasn't a Batman comic, would we be saying this was the worst comic ever?


No, but some people love to complain.

It makes them feel important, and smarter than everyone else, when they bash something.

[Tadhg]

No, but some people love to complain.

It makes them feel important, and smarter than everyone else, when they bash something.

Or they could simply dislike it.

[Guts/Batman]

No, but some people love to complain.

It makes them feel important, and smarter than everyone else, when they bash something.

No, misunderstand me, I'm only on board because this book is a complete trainwreck.

One of the most idiotic books to come out of DC in years.

[megladon8]

Or they could simply dislike it.


I know that.

But you can't deny there is a lot of elitism in the comic book world.

[megladon8]

No, misunderstand me, I'm only on board because this book is a complete trainwreck.

One of the most idiotic books to come out of DC in years.

Ah.

Well, in that case, to each his own.

[Tadhg]

I know that.

But you can't deny there is a lot of elitism in the comic book world.

I'd say assigning motivations to people is a sign of elitism in and of itself.

[Cash Lone]

I got issues 1 & 2. I won't be getting any more. 'Nuff said?

Same here. I dont think its awful, but I've read lots of mediocre Batman stories (which this is one) and decided to save my $$$.

[megladon8]

I'd say assigning motivations to people is a sign of elitism in and of itself.

Point taken.

However, that's not how I meant it.

EDIT: And I'm not an elitist :) I think it's safe to say anyone who considers the For Tomorrow story to be among their favorite Superman stories is probably not an elitist, since pretty much anyone who knows anything about comics seems to hate it.

[Young Avenger]

I got issues 1 & 2 and I didn't like it at all. I'm still going to give the book a chance. If issue 3 sucks than I'm dropping the book.

[Guts/Batman]

Ah.

Well, in that case, to each his own.

I'm reading a lot of books because they are trainwrecks. I just can't look away.

TT this week provided a few "WTF" moments. GA was a big "WTF" moment. Nightwing is a trainwreck (but I haven't gotten to 115 yet) and GK is another trainwreck.

There's lots of trainwrecks right now in DC.

Though Action Comics this week was just plain awesome.

EDIT: Nightwing #115 was one of the biggest "WTF" moments of the past few monthes of comics. That even beat TT #30.

[-Dutch_Master-]

i love it. my fave superhero title of the year.

[Heavy_P]

I think I'm dropping the book myself. I think my hopes were too high, and I'm dissapointed.

Differant strokes for differant folks.

[prand_2002]

I dont think it is the worst book ever. It was an okay book, but everyone expected too much of it and when it did not meet their expectations they started calling it the worst book ever.

[The Shadow]

It's better than the Superpro comic, but that doesn't really mean anything.
Well your credibility just went out the window! :p

I would save your money.

'Nuff said.

[LORD FALLEN ELDOR]

Such a lovely looking book with such top talent. I want to like it but I can't afford to spend money on something I'm not sure if it is good or not. I'm already doing that waiting game on Green Arrow...I want to read Batman, but perhaps I should just switch over to the Monster Men mini series while it's still this early in the game...

[Lubichev]

I want to read Batman, but perhaps I should just switch over to the Monster Men mini series while it's still this early in the game...

A MUCH better way to spend your money.

[megladon8]

I dont think it is the worst book ever. It was an okay book, but everyone expected too much of it and when it did not meet their expectations they started calling it the worst book ever.

Yes.

Even Frank Miller can't have brilliant books every single time.

Besides, we're only at issue 3.

[Guts/Batman]

Yes.

Even Frank Miller can't have brilliant books every single time.

Besides, we're only at issue 3.

"Wait and see" time is over...

[megladon8]

"Wait and see" time is over...


After 2 issues?

I'm a little more patient than that.

[Bloopinator]

I think of it as a strange parody. So I'm able to enjoy it much more, I LOVE IT!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

[Guts/Batman]

After 2 issues?

I'm a little more patient than that.

Yes. After two issues.

Like Infinite Crisis and it's hype, "wait and see" time is over.

AS Batman and Robin had the equivolent amount of hype minus the comics, so after two issues Miller's "wait and see" time is running short.

Every books that gets a lot of hype inherently has a lot less "wait and see" time.

But I'll keep buying it because a good laugh (at a bad comic) is always a good thing. Like Nightwing, TT, GA, GK, Robin, etc.

Plus, pushing the book back didn't help either.

[1HELLBOY]

It's absolutely amazing how the majority of you people can't handle something so simple as "change."



Silly, silly fanboys (and girls). :rolleyes:


Do not comment on this post. I have neither the patience or ability to care to argue right now.

[jaguarshark]

Based on the last couple pages of issue 2, I've left it on my list. But if issue 3 doesn't build on that and deliver the first solid issue of the run, it'll take a hell of a cliffhanger to get me back for issue 4.
Aw, who am I kidding? It's Frank Miller on a monthly Batman title. I'll be around for issue 4.

[Babylon23]

Actually, I think Guts/Batman has the right idea. If you don't like the book, just stop buying it. If enough people do this, DC will hire a different creative team.

I'm really enjoying the book, so I continue to buy it. Sales have been very high on the first 2 issues, so DC has a successful book on their hands, even if people are complaining about it. Maybe if there's a huge drop in sales with issues 3-4, then DC will change their plans for the book.

[Guts/Batman]

Actually, I think Guts/Batman has the right idea. If you don't like the book, just stop buying it. If enough people do this, DC will hire a different creative team.

If it doesn't get better by #3, I will stop buying it.

But how many people would you think would have to stop buying it for DC to change creative teams (Lee is fine, Miller is the one who is nuts)?

I think the number will be have to be in the mulitple millions who stop buying after #2 for DC to change it.

[1HELLBOY]

If it doesn't get better by #3, I will stop buying it.

But how many people would you think would have to stop buying it for DC to change creative teams (Lee is fine, Miller is the one who is nuts)?

I think the number will be have to be in the mulitple millions who stop buying after #2 for DC to change it.



Exactly. Which is why a few people here and there who threaten to stop buying it on a message board won't even make DC flinch.

[Guts/Batman]

Exactly. Which is why a few people here and there who threaten to stop buying it on a message board won't even make DC flinch.

Yea.

It's like a "one man tax revolt", you can't really change anything. You need massive, massive numbers to change something. You just happen to save a few dollars by not buying the thing.

I like the book, but only as a parody. I don't take this book seriously at all. Which could or could not be Miller's goal. I don't know.

It provides a good laugh.

[Phrozen]

It's absolutely amazing how the majority of you people can't handle something so simple as "change."



Silly, silly fanboys (and girls). :rolleyes:


Do not comment on this post. I have neither the patience or ability to care to argue right now.

Change is neither good nor bad. In this case change is very very bad.

[Harry]

I read it as a parody book as well - kind of a sly (maybe not that sly) poke at DC. It's hilarious, and if read in a certain context, pretty entertaining. The art is pretty terrible, but the book makes for a good laugh.

[Gitfinger]

Nearly all Miller books are slow burners. If you remember the first book of Sin City in "The Hard Goodbye" was quite slow and didn't feature a lot more than Marv waking up beside a dead body. Perhaps once you get all six issues together you'll see where Miller was headed with it. Given the utter mediocrity of a lot of DCs output I don't think All Star Batman is that bad. If it's underscores anything then it's the fact the superhero genre is itself extremely tired.

[Buried Alien]

I don't like the reckless use of superlatives, so I won't characterize this as the "worst comic, ever" (because to say that, I'd have to have read every single comic book that was ever published or ever will be published). It has, however, been a bit disappointing to me. I liked THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, but I feel that Frank Miller has lost some of his groove since then and has basically been resting on his creative laurels for years. His stories have always been (and I know he hates this word, but there's honestly no better way that I can characterize it) dark, but they were once dark with a purpose. Recently, it's been dark for its own sake, and thus not much better than the work of his many, inferior imitators from the past twenty years.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Doom: The Comic.....

Nothing else needs to be said.



NOTE: In other words, ASB&R isn't even the worst Batman comic, nevermind worst comic ever.

[Lubichev]

After 2 issues?

I'm a little more patient than that.
Cartainly. But waiting two months for each mediocre issue doesn't help.

[Grant]

I get kick out of it. Doesn't hold a candle to All Star Superman or Batman and the Monster Men though.

[xnef1025]

Since AllStar is supposed to be the iconic versions of the characters, I think the tone of the book will shift when Dick actually puts on the Robin suit. This arc is a slow build because it's really an origin story. The origin of Robin and of the Dynamic Duo.

It's not the worst comic ever, but if you think you won't like seeing Batman act like Marv, wait for the reviews to see if things change and get the trade.

[dazzler_slave]

Poor Frank Miller. He wrote Daredevil and The Dark Knight Returns too early in his career and fanboys won't ever let him forget it. Now he can never write a superhero story again without a legion of naysayers bitching that he's lost his edge or how it's not as good as DKR. Boo hoo! Try to have fun with this comic and you might actually enjoy it! Go into it expecting DKR and of course you will be disappointed!

[Buried Alien]

Poor Frank Miller. He wrote Daredevil and The Dark Knight Returns too early in his career and fanboys won't ever let him forget it. Now he can never write a superhero story again without a legion of naysayers bitching that he's lost his edge or how it's not as good as DKR. Boo hoo! Try to have fun with this comic and you might actually enjoy it! Go into it expecting DKR and of course you will be disappointed!

It doesn't have to be the second coming of DKR, but it should at least be entertaining and fresh. So far, it's been neither. Depicting Batman as a foul-mouthed psycho might have been innovative and unprecedented twenty years ago, but now it's become such a cliche that taking it to the point that Miller takes it in ALL-STAR BATMAN (the title doesn't seem to fit, somehow) borders on self-parody.

I don't expect Frank Miller to match or surpass the best work of his lifetime, but I do expect him to at least rise above the norm.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[The Shadow]

It doesn't have to be the second coming of DKR, but it should at least be entertaining and fresh. So far, it's been neither. Depicting Batman as a foul-mouthed psycho might have been innovative and unprecedented twenty years ago, but now it's become such a cliche that taking it to the point that Miller takes it in ALL-STAR BATMAN (the title doesn't seem to fit, somehow) borders on self-parody.

I don't expect Frank Miller to match or surpass the best work of his lifetime, but I do expect him to at least rise above the norm.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
Nice post and I echo the sentiments.

[matgro]

Okay, so a lot of people don't like this book, but not that many people have really said why. Personally I love the art, it's hard not to like Jim Lee's work and it's the main reason I'm still considering following this series to the end. I thought the first issue was a great setup for things to come but the second issue did kind of fall flat. I understand what Miller was trying to do with the "over the top" dialogue, it's not how Batman normally speaks obviously, but his goal was to scare the crap out of Dick by acting like a psycho, giving Dick no time to grieve over his dead parents. There was reason behind it even if it was extreme behavior, just like there is reason behind him dressing like a bat and swinging from buildings.

[Uncensored]

I like to call this series:

"What If... Batman Live In Basin City?"

[megladon8]

Okay, so a lot of people don't like this book, but not that many people have really said why. Personally I love the art, it's hard not to like Jim Lee's work and it's the main reason I'm still considering following this series to the end. I thought the first issue was a great setup for things to come but the second issue did kind of fall flat. I understand what Miller was trying to do with the "over the top" dialogue, it's not how Batman normally speaks obviously, but his goal was to scare the crap out of Dick by acting like a psycho, giving Dick no time to grieve over his dead parents. There was reason behind it even if it was extreme behavior, just like there is reason behind him dressing like a bat and swinging from buildings.


I, too love Jim Lee's art...for the most part.

I have to say, though, that pretty much every man he draws looks exactly the same, facially.

[Guts/Batman]

Okay, so a lot of people don't like this book, but not that many people have really said why.

It's crappy dialogue and beyond psychotic Batman for me make it...an entertaining trainwreck.

As for the art...As I have said before Jim Lee is good but not one of my favorite artists. This comic cannot be taken seriously.

[Goldeneye]

I think this book is great, slightly better than All Star Superman (although theres only been one issue of that so far). I think its pretty fun, and the last four pages of issue 2 (with the oversized Robin logo at the end) were awesome.

By the way, did anyone buy the "special edition" with the script for the issue? Its actually pretty fun and gets you into the mood of the series. Miller's captions for the scene where Vicki Vale is in her underwear are pretty damn funny.

Also, when the hell does the third issue come out? Its been about three months.

[matgro]

I think this book is great, slightly better than All Star Superman (although theres only been one issue of that so far). I think its pretty fun, and the last four pages of issue 2 (with the oversized Robin logo at the end) were awesome.

By the way, did anyone buy the "special edition" with the script for the issue? Its actually pretty fun and gets you into the mood of the series. Miller's captions for the scene where Vicki Vale is in her underwear are pretty damn funny.

Also, when the hell does the third issue come out? Its been about three months.

The third issue should be out by the end of the month (at least that's what DC's website says). It was supposed to come out last month but it keeps getting pushed back. I'm not sure what the big delay is all about.

[megladon8]

It's crappy dialogue and beyond psychotic Batman for me make it...an entertaining trainwreck.

As for the art...As I have said before Jim Lee is good but not one of my favorite artists. This comic cannot be taken seriously.

I kind of get the feeling it's not meant to be...taken seriously, that is.

It's like he wrote Batman into Sin City.

[Jade_GL]

My BF and I have taken this off or our comic store pull list, but we may still get it online for a discounted rate.

It's entertaining in a way. I can't take it seriously. Batman is so over the top, it's like Batman decided to emulate every anti-hero in a Sin City comic. Perhaps that's the point of what Frank Miller is doing, I have no idea, but it certainly seems like a character in that comic wearing the Batman costume, not really the Batman at all.

I wasn't expecting anything really, so I can't say it's necessarily a letdown. I like the art, the first issue had some interesting stuff, but the second issue just didn't work for me. The dialogue was too much. A big joke in our house is now *Are you retarded? I'm the goddamn....* whatever fits for the situation. Seriously, that quote has been added to our lexicon, and not for the best reason. :)

All in all, it is certainly not the worst comic I have ever read, not even in the top ten worst comics I have read, but it's mediocre to be sure. All Star Superman is so much more fun and interesting, and that's just in #1. All Star Batman is almost worse now because I read the first issue of All Star Superman and saw what an All Star treatment would be if handled, well, better. I almost wish I hadn't read that and only read the Batman one in a vacuum. :)

Anyway, that's my take.

[megladon8]

My BF and I have taken this off or our comic store pull list, but we may still get it online for a discounted rate.

It's entertaining in a way. I can't take it seriously. Batman is so over the top, it's like Batman decided to emulate every anti-hero in a Sin City comic. Perhaps that's the point of what Frank Miller is doing, I have no idea, but it certainly seems like a character in that comic wearing the Batman costume, not really the Batman at all.

I wasn't expecting anything really, so I can't say it's necessarily a letdown. I like the art, the first issue had some interesting stuff, but the second issue just didn't work for me. The dialogue was too much. A big joke in our house is now *Are you retarded? I'm the goddamn....* whatever fits for the situation. Seriously, that quote has been added to our lexicon, and not for the best reason. :)

All in all, it is certainly not the worst comic I have ever read, not even in the top ten worst comics I have read, but it's mediocre to be sure. All Star Superman is so much more fun and interesting, and that's just in #1. All Star Batman is almost worse now because I read the first issue of All Star Superman and saw what an All Star treatment would be if handled, well, better. I almost wish I hadn't read that and only read the Batman one in a vacuum. :)

Anyway, that's my take.


I just wanted to say I think it is so great when couples do this kind of thing together.

My girlfriend is fairly far away because of my school, but we are spending Christmas together. She and I both love comics - and have obsessions about Batman - so we love to go to book stores and comic shoppes.

In the summer we were in NYC, and we went to Midtown Comics.

Wow...that was quite awesome. I could have spent a week in there.

[matgro]

I wasn't expecting anything really, so I can't say it's necessarily a letdown. I like the art, the first issue had some interesting stuff, but the second issue just didn't work for me. The dialogue was too much. A big joke in our house is now *Are you retarded? I'm the goddamn....* whatever fits for the situation. Seriously, that quote has been added to our lexicon, and not for the best reason. :)

Like I was saying earlier, asking a kid if he's retarded is not something Batman would normally do, it was just his way of trying get Dick's mind off of his dead parents. He would rather see Dick angry than grieving, because he is going to need that anger to take on his new life as a crime fighter. The dialogue was overdone, I'll admit that I almost laughed my ass off at some of it, but I can still see what Miller was trying to say.

[Jade_GL]

Like I was saying earlier, asking a kid if he's retarded is not something Batman would normally do, it was just his way of trying get Dick's mind off of his dead parents. He would rather see Dick angry than grieving, because he is going to need that anger to take on his new life as a crime fighter. The dialogue was overdone, I'll admit that I almost laughed my ass off at some of it, but I can still see what Miller was trying to say.

Which I think is what he is going for. At least I would assume he knows exactly what he is doing. He is a great comic writer. I love almost everything I have read of his, especially his Sin City books.

So maybe it might be better to reframe this comic like that. That's it's a much more overdone noir thriller type thing that just happens to have Batman characters acting it out.

Then again, I am still not entirely sold on it. I don't know, just doesn't work for me as well as other books out on the market right now. I mean, compared to She-Hulk, Ex Machina, and Exiles, I would call this one of the lower tier books that I am spending money on right now.

I just wanted to say I think it is so great when couples do this kind of thing together.

My girlfriend is fairly far away because of my school, but we are spending Christmas together. She and I both love comics - and have obsessions about Batman - so we love to go to book stores and comic shoppes.

In the summer we were in NYC, and we went to Midtown Comics.

Wow...that was quite awesome. I could have spent a week in there.

It's nice having a partner in crime, isn't it? :)

We did a road trip in October to Wizard World Boston. We live in Maine, so it was the biggest trip we've done together. Anyway, that was so fun. We walked around looking at all the stuff, got to meet some cool people, got some cool momentos, all that stuff.

It's funny, we read some of the same comics (Infinite Crisis, etc) but we also read stuff on our own and pass it to each other. I am trying to get him to read She-Hulk. He got me into Walking Dead. And we read a lot of the same stuff too, just not all at the same time. We both read JSA, but I'm all caught up and he is a few issues behind I think...

Anyway, I couldn't imagine not being with a guy that didn't like comics. It's just too much fun to talk geeky stuff together and share that kind of stuff.

[megladon8]

It's nice having a partner in crime, isn't it? :)

We did a road trip in October to Wizard World Boston. We live in Maine, so it was the biggest trip we've done together. Anyway, that was so fun. We walked around looking at all the stuff, got to meet some cool people, got some cool momentos, all that stuff.

It's funny, we read some of the same comics (Infinite Crisis, etc) but we also read stuff on our own and pass it to each other. I am trying to get him to read She-Hulk. He got me into Walking Dead. And we read a lot of the same stuff too, just not all at the same time. We both read JSA, but I'm all caught up and he is a few issues behind I think...

Anyway, I couldn't imagine not being with a guy that didn't like comics. It's just too much fun to talk geeky stuff together and share that kind of stuff.

Indeed, it's wonderful.

We also read a lot of the same stuff, and have gotten each other into a lot of wonderful different stuff.

She got me into Steve Niles, namely his 30 Days of Night.

I got her into Superman.

It's truly a great thing :)

[Loren]

OK I'm not in the position to offer my own insight, i currently live in Finland (there is only one comic store here and they dont sell new releases only trades) but from what my friends back home are telling me this book seems to be the worst scripted at the very least.

like this gem... "what are you, retarded. Im the freaking Batman!" or something to that effect

Did anyone who complains about this line actually *read* the issue? Because on the very next page after the "I'm the goddamned Batman" line, we get a caption quoting Bruce's thoughts, and it says:

"Damn. No matter what I say - no matter how I play it - this kid just won't scare."

It's made explicitly obvious that Bruce is intentionally overplaying the jerk/psycho persona. So it makes no sense to complain about that line being out of character or poorly scripted.

[megladon8]

Has anyone been reading Journey Into Knight?

How is it?

[The Shadow]

I kind of get the feeling it's not meant to be...taken seriously, that is.

It's like he wrote Batman into Sin City.
But if I want to read Sin City I'll read Sin City. I want to read Batman... that's why I buy the book.

If it's not suppose to be taken seriously... then what?
Should we laugh because it's a farse? Should we be appaled because he's altered our hero beyond recognizability? :confused:

[Guts/Batman]

Has anyone been reading Journey Into Knight?

How is it?

I couldn't get past the art of Journey Into the Knight.

It is too funkified for me.

I would like to add that I don't think the art and story mix well. It would have better to to have someone else do the art for this book.

And for the record, I think "What are you dense? Are you retarded? I'm the Goddamned Batman!" is the line of the year.

[Guts/Batman]

But if I want to read Sin City I'll read Sin City. I want to read Batman... that's why I buy the book.

If it's not suppose to be taken seriously... then what?
Should we laugh because it's a farse? Should we be appaled because he's altered our hero beyond recognizability? :confused:

I agree with the sentiment but I find myself buying this book to laugh. Dunno why.

But DC hyped the all-star line as being about the core of the character IIRC, and this isn't it.

[pennywisdom]

As for ASB&R, the plotting, pacing, characterization, and dialogue are all way off. Having said that, I'm a Jim Lee fan, so I'm onboard for the artwork alone. Frank Miller has really dropped the ball on this one.

As bad as it it is, I don't even think it's the worst thing Miller has even written. That dubious distinction goes to the Batman/Spawn crossover published by Image in the mid-90's. Reading that is agony. I would recommend it for laughs.

And the worst comic of all time? Get ready, because I'm about to make the big reveal... here it is....

Liberality For All (http://accstudios.com/index.htm). Galvanizing conservatives and pissing off liberals by insulting the intelligence of everyone reading it.

Click here (http://www.buzzscope.com/reviews.php?id=5172) for a review.

Check it out if you're ready to be inundated with massive levels of stupidity. Here's a preview: It stars Sean Hannity as a superhero.

[Guts/Batman]

As bad as it it is, I don't even think it's the worst thing Miller has even written. That dubious distinction goes to the Batman/Spawn crossover published by Image in the mid-90's. Reading that is agony. I would recommend it for laughs.

Yes, that is hilariously bad.

OMG that's so horrible it is indeed funny. I mean, when you stick McFarlane and Miller together and you'll come out with some wacky and hilarious stuff.

Batman used the word "punk" so many times that I think of Batman/Spawn every time I hear that word.

I think I may read that now when I go to bed. :D

[pennywisdom]

Yes, that is hilariously bad.

OMG that's so horrible it is indeed funny. I mean, when you stick McFarlane and Miller together and you'll come out with some wacky and hilarious stuff.

Batman used the word "punk" so many times that I think of Batman/Spawn every time I hear that word.

I think I may read that now when I go to bed. :D
I think that one-shot was responsible for planting a lot of seeds for what we're now seeing in ASB&R. Especially the dialogue, which is terrible. Terrible. The dialogue is terrible. Just goddamn terrible.

I fully expect Batman to stop what he's doing because he wants to go live with Charlie Babbitt and watch Judge Wapner. Definitely. Definitely Wapner.

K-Mart sucks.

[The Shadow]

But DC hyped the all-star line as being about the core of the character IIRC, and this isn't it.
That's what I thought too... a chance to start fresh without the shackles of continuity... but still remaining true to the character and concepts.

If it's done as a pardody... how is that Batman?

[megladon8]

I agree with the sentiment but I find myself buying this book to laugh. Dunno why.

But DC hyped the all-star line as being about the core of the character IIRC, and this isn't it.


*feels incredibly stupid*

What's IIRC?

[Kid Kyoto]

*feels incredibly stupid*

What's IIRC?

"If I recall correctly"

As for ASBARTBW, I don't see how anyone can ever say it's the worst comic, the worst batman comic, or even the worst over-hyped frank miller batman comic.

Not after batman spawn in 1994...

[megladon8]

"If I recall correctly"

As for ASBARTBW, I don't see how anyone can ever say it's the worst comic, the worst batman comic, or even the worst over-hyped frank miller batman comic.

Not after batman spawn in 1994...


Indeed.

I can understand not liking it. Hell, I'm not particularly blown away by anything in it at all.

But saying it's the worst comic ever is just ridiculous.

[Doom Hammer]

As a parody of Batman, it's pretty hilarious. It's a far cry from being the worst book ever. However...

If Frank Miller can pull it together into an actual story, with an explanation for Batman's extreme nature, (Robin's high, that's not really the Batman, Batman has been disconnected from humanity, etc), and start to reverse his behavior and make him a bit more managable, then this will be the best comic book ever. :D

[Guts/Batman]

I think that one-shot was responsible for planting a lot of seeds for what we're now seeing in ASB&R. Especially the dialogue, which is terrible. Terrible. The dialogue is terrible. Just goddamn terrible.

I fully expect Batman to stop what he's doing because he wants to go live with Charlie Babbitt and watch Judge Wapner. Definitely. Definitely Wapner.

K-Mart sucks.

Very well could be.

I re-read it last night before I went to bed. There were some lines in it that do compare well with "I'm the Goddamn Batman!"

That combined with the cape that MacFarlane drew on Batman was just crazy in and of itself. Dude had about a 20 foot cape going.

Anyways...to the lines! :D

Batman and Spawn are working together in the final assault on the ship:

Spawn: MOVE IT, BATMAN! You're taking too long with the guards!
Batman: What the devil are you doing back in my head?
Spawn: I thought we should coordinate our efforts and this seemed like the best way, all right?
Batman: Just follow MY lead, boy. I've been at this a few years longer than you have-- --and I'm a whole lot smarter than you. From all indications, you're dumber than CLARK.
Spawn: Who's Clark?
Batman: None of your business.
Spawn: We're in--We're through the hull-- -- no thanks to you.
Batman: You're a blunt instrument kid.--so go ahead--kick up all the noise you want--though it's a wonder you can MOVE with all those stupid chains.
Spawn: That was a CHEAP SHOT, man.
Batman: You make the noise. I'll do the real work.
Spawn: Jesus--LOOK at all this shit. It could level a CONTINENT.
Batman: Just smash the cyborgs and shut up.I'll do the thinking here.
Spawn: This is a damn arsenal! There's even NUKES! She's out to kill everybody.
Batman: Oh, Great. Perfect. That was EXPERT, boy--You were a soldier. You should've of known. that explosives tend to blow up if you're not CAREFUL with them.

That was just freaking hilarious.

Later...Batman: "A NUKE! Heading straight for the center of town. DO something, you TWIT!"

This line is literally just below "I'm the Goddamn Batman." in sheer awesomeness though insane stupidity. :D

Earlier, just after Batman and Spawn beat the shit out of eachother, Batman: Give it up, punk. You're finished. Just look at you. You're finished.

Spawn: Look at YOU. You can't even get up. You're the one who is FINISHED.
Batman: I'll rip you to pieces. Undisciplined slob.
Spawn: Catch my breath. Just catch my breath and I'll break you in half.

Earlier yet, Batman: Sloppy fighter. Stupid fighter. No DISCIPLINE.
Batman again ,very next box: No discipline. Stupid fighter. Stupid PUNK.

[Harry]

Spawn Batman shtuff.
Pure awesomeness.

Although I'm enjoying AS Bats on some bizarre level, there's a valid point in saying that this series indeed isn't representing what the All Star line is about. As others have said, it's about traditional stories with top tier creative teams - not top tier creative teams doing whatever they always wanted to do but never could with the characters. I'd like this book much more if it were Krazy Batman & Robin's Funtime Comedy Hour or something and we had Matt Wagner or someone writing All Star. Still, on a purely base level, I'm enjoying the direction Miller is taking, even if this may not be the appropriate book for it.

As for his attitude in issue 2, I think there's sooome reasoning we could form for it - namely, Bruce keeping Dick on edge (there's an inuendo there somewhere), acting borderline psychotic so he's not given the oppurtunity to mourn. He seems to be forcing Dick into a heightened state of anger, apprehension and awareness - preparing him for their little war on crime or whatever. Either that or Miller's just really drunk.

[MicroZone]

from what my friends back home are telling me this book seems to be the worst scripted at the very least.


They apparently never read those early issues of Youngblood. This is almost as bad, but with much nicer art.

[pennywisdom]

Guts - Nice post. That book was truly a great moment in horrible dialogue history.

"You're the one who is finished!"

[JulianPerez]

I for one, am not surprised that people are coming down on ALL-STAR BATMAN. Frank Miller's DARK KNIGHT RETURNS is the single most overrated work in comics history. It only receives the praise it gets because it premiered in 1986, the year that everybody wanted comics to be taken seriously. Its window to pop culture relevancy opened and closed with Iran-Contra.

What was that thing that Batman used to know how to do...detectivising, or whatever? DARK KNIGHT RETURNS is poor in anything that could be considered mental action on Batman's part. Batman doesn't use his detective abilities or even his skill as a tactician in any way, except to solve one obvious riddle by Two-Face that - Jesus - *I* could solve.

People that tell me that they prefer Batman to Superman tell me that the reason they do so is because "he solves his problems through mental action, not through applications of force." You know - like getting in a tank and machine-gunning children!

Frank Miller's destructive characterization of Batman, that he is fueled by flashbacks and psychological compulsion and dysfunction, eliminated the heroic drive to protect the weak that is the source of Batman's nobility by turning Batman into Rambo.

Here's a fun game: read DARK KNIGHT RETURNS over in Ahh-nold Schwartzenegger's voice over Batman's caption boxes. I swear to God, it fits so well it's downright creepy, as if that's exactly what Frank Miller was thinking - sort of like how you can sync Pink Floyd's albums up to musicals.

Batman's excessive brutality in the book - smashing a wrist into a pane of glass - was not only out of character, but also rather revolting for ANY character we're supposed to accept as a heroic protagonist.

Who are the mutants again? Better question: who cares? In a Bat-universe of colorful villains, why is he wasting our time with these people?

Let's not forget the totally out of character way Frank Miller wrote the incorruptible icon of Superman. Superman would NEVER allow himself to be used in such a manner, and its insulting that Frank Miller would even consider that he would. And Batman...beating SUPERMAN (especially "classic" Superman) in a fair fight? I'm sorry, but NO. Superman can fly through the sun; the entire power grid of an entire major metropolitan city shouldn't have even singed his super-chesthairs. The only reason the battle went to Batman was because of the writer's insistence Superman lose, and whether you agree with the outcome or not, that's a choice made by a fan, not by a professional.

My point is this: Frank Miller's ALL-STAR BATMAN is just as lousy and shows his poor grasp of Batman as Miller's other Bat-Work, it just has no undeserved legendary reputation to make you forget.

[Lonewalker]

I for one, am not surprised that people are coming down on ALL-STAR BATMAN. Frank Miller's DARK KNIGHT RETURNS is the single most overrated work in comics history. It only receives the praise it gets because it premiered in 1986, the year that everybody wanted comics to be taken seriously. Its window to pop culture relevancy opened and closed with Iran-Contra.

What was that thing that Batman used to know how to do...detectivising, or whatever? DARK KNIGHT RETURNS is poor in anything that could be considered mental action on Batman's part. Batman doesn't use his detective abilities or even his skill as a tactician in any way, except to solve one obvious riddle by Two-Face that - Jesus - *I* could solve.

People that tell me that they prefer Batman to Superman tell me that the reason they do so is because "he solves his problems through mental action, not through applications of force." You know - like getting in a tank and machine-gunning children!

Frank Miller's destructive characterization of Batman, that he is fueled by flashbacks and psychological compulsion and dysfunction, eliminated the heroic drive to protect the weak that is the source of Batman's nobility by turning Batman into Rambo.

Here's a fun game: read DARK KNIGHT RETURNS over in Ahh-nold Schwartzenegger's voice over Batman's caption boxes. I swear to God, it fits so well it's downright creepy, as if that's exactly what Frank Miller was thinking - sort of like how you can sync Pink Floyd's albums up to musicals.

Batman's excessive brutality in the book - smashing a wrist into a pane of glass - was not only out of character, but also rather revolting for ANY character we're supposed to accept as a heroic protagonist.

Who are the mutants again? Better question: who cares? In a Bat-universe of colorful villains, why is he wasting our time with these people?

Let's not forget the totally out of character way Frank Miller wrote the incorruptible icon of Superman. Superman would NEVER allow himself to be used in such a manner, and its insulting that Frank Miller would even consider that he would. And Batman...beating SUPERMAN (especially "classic" Superman) in a fair fight? I'm sorry, but NO. Superman can fly through the sun; the entire power grid of an entire major metropolitan city shouldn't have even singed his super-chesthairs. The only reason the battle went to Batman was because of the writer's insistence Superman lose, and whether you agree with the outcome or not, that's a choice made by a fan, not by a professional.

My point is this: Frank Miller's ALL-STAR BATMAN is just as lousy and shows his poor grasp of Batman as Miller's other Bat-Work, it just has no undeserved legendary reputation to make you forget.
Chill out fanboy.

[megladon8]

I for one, am not surprised that people are coming down on ALL-STAR BATMAN. Frank Miller's DARK KNIGHT RETURNS is the single most overrated work in comics history. It only receives the praise it gets because it premiered in 1986, the year that everybody wanted comics to be taken seriously. Its window to pop culture relevancy opened and closed with Iran-Contra.

What was that thing that Batman used to know how to do...detectivising, or whatever? DARK KNIGHT RETURNS is poor in anything that could be considered mental action on Batman's part. Batman doesn't use his detective abilities or even his skill as a tactician in any way, except to solve one obvious riddle by Two-Face that - Jesus - *I* could solve.

People that tell me that they prefer Batman to Superman tell me that the reason they do so is because "he solves his problems through mental action, not through applications of force." You know - like getting in a tank and machine-gunning children!

Frank Miller's destructive characterization of Batman, that he is fueled by flashbacks and psychological compulsion and dysfunction, eliminated the heroic drive to protect the weak that is the source of Batman's nobility by turning Batman into Rambo.

Here's a fun game: read DARK KNIGHT RETURNS over in Ahh-nold Schwartzenegger's voice over Batman's caption boxes. I swear to God, it fits so well it's downright creepy, as if that's exactly what Frank Miller was thinking - sort of like how you can sync Pink Floyd's albums up to musicals.

Batman's excessive brutality in the book - smashing a wrist into a pane of glass - was not only out of character, but also rather revolting for ANY character we're supposed to accept as a heroic protagonist.

Who are the mutants again? Better question: who cares? In a Bat-universe of colorful villains, why is he wasting our time with these people?

Let's not forget the totally out of character way Frank Miller wrote the incorruptible icon of Superman. Superman would NEVER allow himself to be used in such a manner, and its insulting that Frank Miller would even consider that he would. And Batman...beating SUPERMAN (especially "classic" Superman) in a fair fight? I'm sorry, but NO. Superman can fly through the sun; the entire power grid of an entire major metropolitan city shouldn't have even singed his super-chesthairs. The only reason the battle went to Batman was because of the writer's insistence Superman lose, and whether you agree with the outcome or not, that's a choice made by a fan, not by a professional.

My point is this: Frank Miller's ALL-STAR BATMAN is just as lousy and shows his poor grasp of Batman as Miller's other Bat-Work, it just has no undeserved legendary reputation to make you forget.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/megladon8/bunny2.jpg

[Tadhg]

*cut to save space*

So, you're a big Superman fan I take it? And it seems that you want to just out and out dismiss Dark Knight Returns(And Frank Miller) because he had Batman beat up Superman? Dark Knight Returns isn't only praised because it was put out in 86. It's because it exudes craft, manic energy and is a very visceral story. And to turn into a fanboy for a second, where does this Fair fight come from? We had a powersuit, Kryptonite arrow, etc. That was the whole point, the fight wasn't fair.

I bet you REALLY hated DKSA then? "Get out of my Cave." Indeed.

[CaptMagellan]

I for one, am not surprised that people are coming down on ALL-STAR BATMAN. Frank Miller's DARK KNIGHT RETURNS is the single most overrated work in comics history. It only receives the praise it gets because it premiered in 1986, the year that everybody wanted comics to be taken seriously. Its window to pop culture relevancy opened and closed with Iran-Contra.


Except that most people are comparing it to Miller's 'Year One' (he's been on record saying this is Year 1.5). Year one had a very different tone, approach, and style than All Star.

[The Batman]

Did anyone who complains about this line actually *read* the issue? Because on the very next page after the "I'm the goddamned Batman" line, we get a caption quoting Bruce's thoughts, and it says:

"Damn. No matter what I say - no matter how I play it - this kid just won't scare."

It's made explicitly obvious that Bruce is intentionally overplaying the jerk/psycho persona. So it makes no sense to complain about that line being out of character or poorly scripted.

i'm so glad i'm not the only one who noticed that Batman's dialogue was supposed to be off.

he was trying to scare Dick and perhaps with this only being Year 2 he still hasn't figured out his public persona completely. it's pointed out a few times in the comic that it's an act and by the end when we get some of Batman's internal monolgue we've get it confirmed.

i'm enjoying ASB&RTBW, it's far from the best comic out there but it sure is an entertaining one.

[megladon8]

i'm so glad i'm not the only one who noticed that Batman's dialogue was supposed to be off.

he was trying to scare Dick and perhaps with this only being Year 2 he still hasn't figured out his public persona completely. it's pointed out a few times in the comic that it's an act and by the end when we get some of Batman's internal monolgue we've get it confirmed.

i'm enjoying ASB&RTBW, it's far from the best comic out there but it sure is an entertaining one.


Yes, you're right on the money.

*high five*

[The Shadow]

it's far from the best comic out there but it sure is an entertaining one.
Wow... just... wow.

Read JSA, Young Avengers, Captain America, Runaways, She-Hulk, Daredevil, Birds of Prey, Legion of Superheroes (and there are many I can't think of at the moment) that are far and away better. Of course it's subjective... but when THIS MANY people complain about a book... it can't be THAT good.

[megladon8]

Wow... just... wow.

Read JSA, Young Avengers, Captain America, Runaways, She-Hulk, Daredevil, Birds of Prey, Legion of Superheroes (and there are many I can't think of at the moment) that are far and away better. Of course it's subjective... but when THIS MANY people complain about a book... it can't be THAT good.


He didn't say it was. He said it was entertaining.

I agree. I have enjoyed reading it so far.

I am still astounded by the fact that people are judging it so harshly after 2 issues.

I don't care about the "waiting period" and how it keeps getting pushed back and all that crap.

It's like seeing a trailer for a movie and giving the whole movie a bad review becuase you didn't like the trailer.

[The Shadow]

He didn't say it was. He said it was entertaining.
OOpps!

My bad!

I thought he said it was "BY FAR THE BEST"... sorry! :o

[Tadhg]

Wow... just... wow.

Read JSA, Young Avengers, Captain America, Runaways, She-Hulk, Daredevil, Birds of Prey, Legion of Superheroes (and there are many I can't think of at the moment) that are far and away better. Of course it's subjective... but when THIS MANY people complain about a book... it can't be THAT good.

Personally I prefer it to every book you mentioned there except Captain America(Runaways exempt since I haven't read it.)

My only real issue with it is the same I have with most comics from today. Not enough happens in each issue, well that and the art, but it seems to me that the story isn't anywhere near as bad as people make it out to be and there's a lot of overreaction because he says "I'm the Goddamned Batman."

[megladon8]

OOpps!

My bad!

I thought he said it was "BY FAR THE BEST"... sorry! :o

No problem. :)

[Guts/Batman]

I am still astounded by the fact that people are judging it so harshly after 2 issues.

Why are you surprised?

This is what comic book fans do. The writer most of the time has a set time of 2-3 issues to keep the readers attention.

I gave up on Supergirl after issue #1 issue and S/B after seeing Darkseid getting his ass kicked by Superman. *cough*Bullshit*cough*

There are more than a few I'm thinking of dropping.

[Guts/Batman]

Guts - Nice post. That book was truly a great moment in horrible dialogue history.

"You're the one who is finished!"

I can see why one would think that that particular one shot had some effect on AS Batman and Robin. The lines...they fit so well with one another.

[megladon8]

Why are you surprised?

This is what comic book fans do. The writer most of the time has a set time of 2-3 issues to keep the readers attention.

I gave up on Supergirl after issue #1 issue and S/B after seeing Darkseid getting his ass kicked by Superman. *cough*Bullshit*cough*

There are more than a few I'm thinking of dropping.


Well this (the forum) is the first time I have ever really spoken with people who are big comic book fans.

I didn't realize people judged books so harshly in so few issues. However, I guess it makes sense, since buying tons of monthly books gets very costly, and if you aren't enjoying a title you might as well drop it.

However, even so, I spend more than $100 a month on monthly releases, and if I'm not liking a title, I will at least give it 5-6 issues.

[Guts/Batman]

So do I.

I spend over $100 as well. This last week was particularly expensive.

Some of the books right now I buy principally for the art anyways.

[The Shadow]

I spend more than $100 a month on monthly releases, and if I'm not liking a title, I will at least give it 5-6 issues.
I usualy spend about that as well... and I always give it until the end of the first arc to truely WOW me... BUT I do not hesitate to critique (criticism can be both negative AND positive!) whatever books I am reading. I have over 20,000 comics and collected for 20 years now so I think I'm somewhat capable of making an informed opinion based on 2 decades of reading and owning comics that go back to the golden age.

People that seem so WOW'd by AS Superman, AS Batman and Identity Crisis give me the IMPRESSION (and it's only that) of not being too well read in comics... either by being new to the medium or really selective in what they do read that they don't have a wide exposure to what's out there.

[Max_Dillon]

This book is trash.

[jade_nova]

Has issue three of this come out yet? If it hasn't then I see no way this can be the worst book ever.

[The Shadow]

This book is trash.
Enlightening. :rolleyes:

How come?

[megladon8]

This book is trash.


It's great that you present an opinion validated by strongly backed up facts, as well as a great sense of elegance with your diction.

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[discostu]

Miller has written the worst bat book ever and the best bat book ever.

[The Shadow]

Miller has written the worst bat book ever and the best bat book ever.
Oh the sweet irony!

LOL

[pennywisdom]

i'm so glad i'm not the only one who noticed that Batman's dialogue was supposed to be off.

he was trying to scare Dick and perhaps with this only being Year 2 he still hasn't figured out his public persona completely. it's pointed out a few times in the comic that it's an act and by the end when we get some of Batman's internal monolgue we've get it confirmed.

He's deliberately altering his dialogue to suit his Batman personae? I would expect him to be a bit of a better actor than that. Unless he wants people to think Batman is a stuttering neanderthal.

Also, if that's your excuse, how do you explain Alfred and Vicki Vale being so poorly written?

[Jake V]

This book is trash.
Heh. The only way you could have honestly came to this conclusion is if you literally threw the issue away. Which is possible.

From an entertainment standpoint, the book is awesome. As a serious Batman story, not so much.

[megladon8]

He's deliberately altering his dialogue to suit his Batman personae? I would expect him to be a bit of a better actor than that. Unless he wants people to think Batman is a stuttering neanderthal.

*cough* Year 1.5 *cough*

*cough* First time he's dealt with a kid *cough*

*cough* For all intents and purposes, perhaps the first time he's spoken to someone as Batman *cough*


Also, if that's your excuse, how do you explain Alfred and Vicki Vale being so poorly written?

Well, I didn't think they were poorly written at all.

Pretty much anything is better than Kim Basinger.

[megladon8]

Heh. The only way you could have honestly came to this conclusion is if you literally threw the issue away. Which is possible.

From an entertainment standpoint, the book is awesome. As a serious Batman story, not so much.

Yes, but didn't you know comics AREN'T entertainment? Every issue is meant to be a brilliantly written tale of woe that changes your outlook on life.

Entertainment is SSSOOOO 1960s.

[Guts/Batman]

Yes, but didn't you know comics AREN'T entertainment? Every issue is meant to be a brilliantly written tale of woe that changes your outlook on life.

Entertainment is SSSOOOO 1960s.

Some comics fail in their goal to entertain you.

The dynamic of art and story is so far skewed one way that it is mentally taxing to read and attempt to enjoy...

A number of DC titles suffer from this recently.

[JulianPerez]

So, you're a big Superman fan I take it? And it seems that you want to just out and out dismiss Dark Knight Returns(And Frank Miller) because he had Batman beat up Superman? Dark Knight Returns isn't only praised because it was put out in 86. It's because it exudes craft, manic energy and is a very visceral story. And to turn into a fanboy for a second, where does this Fair fight come from? We had a powersuit, Kryptonite arrow, etc. That was the whole point, the fight wasn't fair.

I bet you REALLY hated DKSA then? "Get out of my Cave." Indeed.

I have really wanted to read DKSA very, very badly because the people that say they hate it are the same people that really love DKR...and that makes me think there's something TO it. ;)

While yes, I am a Superman fan, I am bothered by DKR much more by what it did to Batman, not by what it did to Superman. I mentioned Superman's being written out of character by Miller because it supports my point: that he didn't have a grasp of who these characters are.

Batman failing to use his mental and detective abilities that is his defining characteristic, Batman indulging in brutality that is not only inappropriate for a hero (and Batman IS a HERO) but inappropriate for someone with Batman's code and morality, and Batman being portrayed as a crazy maniac whose psychology is scarred by trauma and fights crime out of psychological compulsion and flashbacks instead of inner nobility...THESE are the reasons I don't like DKR.

I frankly, don't agree that it exudes craft; it's COBRA with Sylvester Stallone as Batman. A dumb eighties action movie with a hero spitting one liners and carrying a tank and machine gun.

"Hey Joker, remember vhen I said I'd kill you last?"

"I lied."

[The Batman]

Batman's done some pretty grisly stuff during his first appearences in the 40's, stories that predated and influenced miller's DKR. also isn't the whole trauma motivation angle a part of the character, his own inner nobility what keeps him from becoming a Punisher or a Red Hood, but it was seeing his parents killed that motivated a young Bruce Wayne to dedicate his life to irradicating crime. i don't have my Archive in front of me so i can't give an exact quote but i'm pretty sure that trauma was part of the character pre-miller. the title Dark Knight Returns was appropriate as Miller was returning some of the darker elements to Batman that had gone missing over the years.

DKR was of its time and place and you're well within your rights to not like it however some of your criticisms seem off. you're ignoring the more touching moments, the bits of humour and the fact that Batman was sort of supposed to be angry and that things were supposed to be bad since all the heroes retired.

[JulianPerez]

Batman's done some pretty grisly stuff during his first appearences in the 40's, stories that predated and influenced miller's DKR.

Well, let me name you one right off the top of my head: Batman, in his early appearances, used a gun. It has been established later, however, that Batman never uses lethal weapons.

Many characters do many things in the beginning that one would find rather extraordinary now and it's best to gloss them over. For instance, there was one early issue of THOR where Dr. Don Blake built a fully-functioning robot. Thank St. Mantlo that nobody's ever thought to bring THAT one up again! :)

My point is this: Batman using a gun was fine for his early issues where the character has yet to find his identity. In 1986, however, Batman coming out in a tank and machine gunning children or breaking the wrist of a man against a car window is not only loathesome, but does no credit to Batman's style and finesse.

also isn't the whole trauma motivation angle a part of the character, his own inner nobility what keeps him from becoming a Punisher or a Red Hood, but it was seeing his parents killed that motivated a young Bruce Wayne to dedicate his life to irradicating crime. i don't have my Archive in front of me so i can't give an exact quote but i'm pretty sure that trauma was part of the character pre-miller.

Batman's origin was something that was there from the outset. However, DKR made his motivation for fighting crime to be a degree of psychological unbalancedness, which compromises Batman's heroism. Here's a fun DKR drinking game: take a shot every time somebody says aloud they think Batman's crazy, including Batman himself!

Previously, Batman fought crime because he believed it was RIGHT. After Miller, he fought crime because he MUST.

Also: Frank Robbins put it best when he said that Batman terrifies the guilty...never the innocent. Batman is only a creature of fear for evildoers. Batman is not Dracula.

the title Dark Knight Returns was appropriate as Miller was returning some of the darker elements to Batman that had gone missing over the years.

Julius Schwartz, Frank Robbins, Dennis O'Neil, and Steve Englehart gave Batman back his darkness, not Frank Miller. Miller was a Johnny-come-lately.

you're ignoring the more touching moments, the bits of humour and the fact that Batman was sort of supposed to be angry and that things were supposed to be bad since all the heroes retired.

The sense of humor in DKR was truly vile. There was one gag about a pair of persons smoking dope and talking about what a fascist Batman is. Yeah, okay, fine, fine, I get it: Frank Miller doesn't like people that vote differently than he does.

Ditto for the "Robin, the Boy Hostage" crack. He's laughing AT the characters, not WITH them, attacking Robin's competence by getting a laugh at the untrue fact he was a perpetual victim.

[Panman]

DKR is one of the best comics I've ever read, but as an Elseworlds comic. As in a "what if?" comic. What if Batman was a fascist? What if Robin died? What if Robin was a girl? What if Gordon retired? It's just Miller's interpretation of the Batman story. IMO recent writers have decided that since DKR was so much more successful than other Batman comics, the DKR Batman must be the definitive batman. So they wrote the comics so that DKR could fit into continuity (the current Batman is not quite the DKR Batman, but he's definitly pretty close). The thing I liked about DKR and Batman/Spawn was that it was Miller's interpretation of Batman, but that should just be Miller's interpretation of the man, not every Batman writer's interpretation.

All Star Batman is another interpretation of Batman as a psycopath, so obsessed with his "mission" that he kidnaps Dick and scares the shit out of him. What I hate about ASB is that it is (or will become) canon as did Year One. Batman's history is being rewritten and ASB will (most probably) become the definitive way that Robin was recruted.

[JulianPerez]

DKR is one of the best comics I've ever read, but as an Elseworlds comic. As in a "what if?" comic. What if Batman was a fascist? What if Robin died? What if Robin was a girl? What if Gordon retired? It's just Miller's interpretation of the Batman story.

My primary objection to DKR is that Batman was written grotesquely out of character, which makes claims that Frank Miller wrote the "definitive" Batman irksome, and rather insulting to Dennis O'Neil, Robbins, Finger, and Steve Englehart. Perhaps if viewed as the Batman-equivalent of those SIMPSONS episodes where Bart plays Hamlet or whatever, it becomes tolerable as a fever dream of one writer-artist.

[cactusmaac]

My primary objection to DKR is that Batman was written grotesquely out of character, which makes claims that Frank Miller wrote the "definitive" Batman irksome, and rather insulting to Dennis O'Neil, Robbins, Finger, and Steve Englehart. Perhaps if viewed as the Batman-equivalent of those SIMPSONS episodes where Bart plays Hamlet or whatever, it becomes tolerable as a fever dream of one writer-artist.

That's interesting.

What do you think of the Batman portrayed in the early Kane\Finger issues?

[JulianPerez]

That's interesting.

What do you think of the Batman portrayed in the early Kane\Finger issues?

As I said, Batman needed time to find his legs as a character. Finger is a brilliant writer, creating moody and atmospheric stories. I would have something to say about the Kane art, however, it's difficult to determine what was done by Kane or by his often uncredited understudies.

If you're trying to imply that Frank Miller's apocryphal variation on Batman is somehow legitimized because the character was in a state of flux after his creation, before the writers could really determine his identity and behavior patterns, I would respond that it was possible to tell a story where Batman uses a gun in 1939, but NOT in 1986.

It was possible to tell a story where Superman slapped a wifebeater in 1939, but Superman has since gained his most valuable attribute, his incorruptibilty and purity. Thus, we would expect a paragon like him to show more restraint.

[Ryan Day]

I suspect one of the problems is that people forget that DKR is a very satirical, over-the-top work. Not to the same extent as DKSA, certainly, but there's a lot of humour in the society Miller created, and I don't think he was taking it entirely seriously. Everyone remembers Batman being this big-bad-vigilante, but forget about Ronald Reagan holding a press conference wearing a radiation suit and the Joker appearing on Letterman.

And really, "out of character" is kind of irrelevant, since the story takes place in the future. Add on another 5 or 10 years of being Batman, then another 10 years of retirement, and who knows what Bruce Wayne would be like? Heck, he's building spy sattelites and making plans to wipe out the JLA and take over Gotham now; Miller's Batman is practically Adam West next to that.

[megladon8]

Some comics fail in their goal to entertain you.

The dynamic of art and story is so far skewed one way that it is mentally taxing to read and attempt to enjoy...

A number of DC titles suffer from this recently.


I am finding this a bit with the new Ghost Rider mini.

[the goddamn batman]

JulianPerez, this is in respone to your posting.

first, i'm new, i just lurk around most of the time, but i saw this debate and had to say something. so here goes:

julianperez, what guns are you talking about? do you mean the ROPE gun he uses to cross the twin towers when dealing with harvey? do you mean the "RUBBER BULLETS. HONEST." that he uses on the mutants, via the batmobile/tank canon? do you mean when he shoots the explosive? or are we talking about the scene where he does indeed shoot the mutant...TO SAVE THE BABY?!?!? (BTW, i'd have shot him too.) those are the only gun references in DKR, and the in the latter, he got the gun from the other mutant(who he did not shoot) when there seemed no other option. again i ask what guns are we talking about? blanket statements are great fpor keeping warm, but not for proving points!

as for batman being out of character, DUH! i mean really, HES NOT BATMAN ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(sorry but thats to obvious) bruce wayne is dringking for chrissake! the point is that he IS out of character. he's been retired for TEN years! remember how he talks about that alot in the book, and how he's always talking about the physical pain, how it used to be easier? i imagine thats most of the reason he used the batmobile against the mutants, a whole gang against a 55 year old man? yeah right! and as you most likely DON'T recall, the explosion in the mutant scene is from THEIR rocket launcher, NOT batmans. so lets not go there.

now here is my other big gripe: "batman is a hero", ok great, alot of people feel that way too. frank miller is not one of them. frank sees batman as a crazed vigilante. vigilates are by defenition criminals. and therefore, so is batman, in millers view anyway. love it or leave it, thats what you're dealing with. thats what you're gonna get in a miller batman book. so the argument that batman should act like a hero, has no relevence(sp), so drop it. read DKSA, "we were always criminals, on this planet we have to be." quote from green lantern, regarding batmans previous statement about superheros being criminals. again mabey not your take on it, but you are reading a miller book, and thats his take on it.
now this of course is not to say that batman does not do heroic things in miller books, because he does. batman after all does feel vindicated in his actions. he saves the cat, and gordons son in year one. he saves dick grayson from potential rape and murder in all-star. he saves the baby in DKR. he saves all of earths superheros in DKSA, and tries to save every innocent citizen in all of the above. spawn/batman sucked, i'm leaving it out. although he and spawn do try to stop terrosrist bombings! and miller will have batman up against terrorists again, in his other as of yet untitled batman book(released as an OGN, with B&W art by miller) to be released. more saving the whole city. thats heroic in my mind. but ther is a cost, that mutant had to be shot, to save the BABY(i can't get ovet that one, it's a baby, what would jesus do?) the cops in all-star, well mabey not HAD, but none th less, WERE set on fire... to save a TWELVE YEAR OLD CHILD!!! it's extreme to the max, but show me a miller book that isn't, and i'll point out that its spelled m-i-l-l-A-r! no offence to mark millar, hope he's recovering quickly :)

julian, i suggest you read millers work again, it does not seem that you have retained much from any of it. also read an interview or two, miller explains alot of his opinions on batman. or keep on ctitisizing a book you don't REALLY seem to have read. your opinions are based on vey little FACT, and alot of SPECULATION. i wrote this with issues in hand, i don't think you did that. yeah i'm a nerd, i'm also sick and have too much time today. no offence meant, i just feel your arguments are weak, and noone else was stepping up to the plate. i hope you respond with something other than insulsts! (i post on the DC boards, so it's what i'm used to) :)

crap i forgot we were talking about all-star.

i think it's gonna be great, when it's done. IMO miller does not read well in instalments. when this is collected it's gonna be awesome! jims art feels weird with millers writing. buy the special edition #1, the black and white art works sooooo much better, which makes me think its the coloring thats off. too bad lynn varley isn't doing it. also thats what we're used to with millerrs art, so thats part of why its a weird fit for me. but i'm learning to love it. and no this is not the worst comic ever, neither is spawn/batman or batman/spawn. i don't know what it is, mabey the adventures of jello-man, and his dog wobble(no joke, i have it!) as for it not being what DC advertised, so. who thought it would be that anyway, when miller writes a book, you get a miller book, and nothing else. if you expected anything else, you have only your misguided hope to blame. miller is also not "doing what he's always wanted, but could never do with the chatacters". miller does what he wants, when he wants. always has. "the boy wonder" is in the title because that was one of the things miller required of DC. DC requred that the book be about batman, AND ROBIN. miller was asked if there were any "rules" for writing the book, and he said: "if there is, nobody told me!" that interview came out well before the first issue, again fair warning was givin that this would be another free for all, but nobody listened. thanks for reading my huge post, or not, i'm out.

read the interview here:
http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Batman/AllStar/MillerBatmanRobin.html

[JulianPerez]

I was describing Batman's use of a gun in his early, 1930s appearances - a grossly out of character lapse for a character that has been written as refusing to use lethal weapons. It would be fine for Batman to do so then, when the character and his behavior were less concrete, however, not now when Batman's identity is better defined. I was responding to someone who said that, "It was fine for Batman to be excessively brutal in the 1930s, so Frank Miller, in 1986, can write him that way."

and as you most likely DON'T recall, the explosion in the mutant scene is from THEIR rocket launcher, NOT batmans.

Whose rocket launcher it is, is totally irrelevant. What is important is that Batman demonstrated a willingness to use lethal force.

Perhaps Batman's actions in this situation are justified. However, that too, is not the point: the point is this situation exists because Miller created it. There are situations where Batman would kill, sure. There are also situations where James Bond would get an STD. I would not want to read about James Bond burning when he urinates, and I would not want to read about Batman killing, either.

Batman is NOT a killer. The grunting, monosyllabic "I believe you" line after he blows them to Kingdom Come, a one-liner out of an Arnold Schwartzennegger in the tradition of "stick around" was the frosting on a manure-flavored cake of a very unintelligent comic.

or are we talking about the scene where he does indeed shoot the mutant...TO SAVE THE BABY?!?!? (BTW, i'd have shot him too.)

On a personal level, I find your statement that "you'd make the same decision" to be disturbing. If I ever was in a position that I had to commit murder to save a life, perhaps I would pull the trigger and kill. But I would feel vaguely guilty, ashamed, and nauseous about it for the REST OF MY LIFE. Your degree of comfort, and indeed, PRIDE in your ability to make such a choice easily is repugnant.

now here is my other big gripe: "batman is a hero", ok great, alot of people feel that way too. frank miller is not one of them. frank sees batman as a crazed vigilante. vigilates are by defenition criminals. and therefore, so is batman, in millers view anyway.

The fact that Frank Miller BELIEVES that Batman is not a hero does not mean that Batman is not a hero. I can "believe" that Batman is really a banana and write him as yellow, creamy, and delicious, but then I would be mistaken. Batman is a man, not a fruit.

as for batman being out of character, DUH! i mean really, HES NOT BATMAN ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(

So, there's an agreement that Batman was written out of character in DKR? Good, that was my point.

Also, I totally agree with this statement. Frank Miller was writing somebody, but it sure wasn't Batman.

As said earlier, if DKR was explained as being an "Imaginary Story" with a totally different character, I would have no problem with the series whatsoever; DKR would still be infuriating politically and infantile in its approach to violence, but I could just avoid it, like I did Steve Ditko's Randroid tracts like MR. A.

However, in cases like ALL-STAR BATMAN AND ROBIN, Miller's variant characterization is pointed to as gospel, somebody needs to stand up and say that Miller just didn't get Batman then, and doesn't get him now.

[megladon8]

I still say that's just your opinion, Julian.

Also, I think its kind of stupid to say that Batman was written out-of-character in the 1930s when he was done by Bob Kane.

I mean...he invented Batman. If there's one person in the world who knows EXACTLY what Batman's character is, it was Bob Kane.

[Jaye]

This is a fine conversation, but do not make it personal.
Any posts with insults will be deleted.

Thank you.

[SoonerSean]

I'm not overly impressed with the writing... but hard to argue with Lee's art. I'm just disappointed that it takes so long between issues. I mean #3 is another week away and I think DC says #4 will be in February.

[discostu]

I'm not overly impressed with the writing... but hard to argue with Lee's art. I'm just disappointed that it takes so long between issues. I mean #3 is another week away and I think DC says #4 will be in February.
I think they're tweaking the story because they realized how much it sucks... at least All Star Superman is turning out good.

[Ryan Day]

I think they're tweaking the story because they realized how much it sucks... at least All Star Superman is turning out good.

Really, I doubt DC has much influence on Miller's script. I imagine they had to throw a ton of money and guarantee him a lot of independence to get him to write the book.

[discostu]

Really, I doubt DC has much influence on Miller's script. I imagine they had to throw a ton of money and guarantee him a lot of independence to get him to write the book.
Then why the extra long delay? Pretty much nothing happened in the first two issues.

[Ryan Day]

Then why the extra long delay? Pretty much nothing happened in the first two issues.

I've got no idea. Jim Lee's not exactly a speed freak, and Miller is a very busy guy these days. But it's kind of a leap to go from "the book is late" to "they must be re-writing it."

[Guts/Batman]

I am finding this a bit with the new Ghost Rider mini.

I like the Ghost Rider mini.

The art isn't distracting to go along with a plot that feels like it is actually heading for a climax. It's told in a classic storytelling way.

Build-up, climbing action, Climax, declining action, conclusion...

Of course, we're only at "climbing action" so far but it seems that so few comics are told in this fashion.

[the goddamn batman]

I was describing Batman's use of a gun in his early, 1930s appearances - I was responding to someone who said that, "It was fine for Batman to be excessively brutal in the 1930s, so Frank Miller, in 1986, can write him that way."

ok i understand that. if i read batman #6**-whatever, and batman had pistols blazin', i would be kinda concerned. but if i read Dark Knight Returns, and batman had guns blazin(which he only did the once) i wouldn't be concerned at all. i might have to decide if this was a batman book i wanted to keep reading. and i understand not wanting to read that! but it IS an else-world book, while never officialy titled as such, nor necesarily released under that pretense, it is inderstood that it is not batman canon, or at least i thought it was understood. in two-three years time DC managed to make that outcome well...impossible. they killed jason in a way that would no longer fit DKR premise. so clearly a stand alone book, also why it was released as delux editions, and not under the batman monthly title. as for miller, he did what HE felt was more realistic. agree or not, that was his idea, HIS batman..in HIS gotham, needed that. millers batman is fighting a WAR. millers batman used a gun, to save a baby, to shoot a rope, so he could run across to the other building, so he could blow up explosives, and bring the tunnel down on the cops after him! millers batman is HARDCORE! he punches the new FEMALE commissioner in her FACE, and takes her gun! he puts the guys hand through the window, he hangs the guy off the top of the building, he uses fear gas on people, just like the scarecrow! clearly not main canon batman, but thats why its great, i'm sorry you feel differently, but that doesn't denote the piece of art in question.

Whose rocket launcher it is, is totally irrelevant.

uuummmm. NO!!!! it IS totaly relevant! lets break it down here:

mutant fires rocket launcher...
rocket hits batmobile...
rocket explodes...
explosion kills many mutants...the mutans actions caused a negative effect on the mutants. now explain too me how that's batmans decision to "use lethal force"? again batman used RUBBER bullets. rubber bullets are used as a NON-LETHAL option by law enforcement the world over! again NON-LETHAL is the key word! unless that's sacasm, and until miller says otherwise...they are rubber!

What is important is that Batman demonstrated a willingness to use lethal force.

i ask again, where? how? RUBBER BULLETS!!! NON-LETHAL!!! KEY WORD!!!
if you mean the hand through window, or haning the guy off the building, he didn't kill those people. he knew what he was doing, he was in control the whole time. hell the guy kills HIMSELF at the end of the book, well... infact almost everyone dies in that book, its the end of the story, everyone should die, and he did NOT, repeat, NOT kill the joker, that alone shows, batman still in the frame of mind where killing is unacceptable. he retired because jason died, thats the whole point of the book! he comes out of his sworn retirement.

Perhaps Batman's actions in this situation are justified. However, that too, is not the point: the point is this situation exists because Miller created it. There are situations where Batman would kill, sure. There are also situations where James Bond would get an STD. I would not want to read about James Bond burning when he urinates, and I would not want to read about Batman killing, either.

well, thats opinion and you state that clearly. "i would not WANT" want being our KEY WORD this time. miller wanted to write about it, thats all the excuse in the world. thats why its set in a different time line. because its going to be a different interpretation of batman. nothing wrong with that. if their ARE situations where batman WOULD kill, how is that millers fault? sounds like a character flaw too me. justified is a word you might want to look up...if it is indeed justified, there is no debate about right or wrong. it was wrong, but necessary. the ends JUSTIFY the means. and they must have for batman, even still i'm sure it eats him up at night.

Batman is NOT a killer. The grunting, monosyllabic "I believe you" line after he blows them to Kingdom Come, a one-liner out of an Arnold Schwartzennegger in the tradition of "stick around" was the frosting on a manure-flavored cake of a very unintelligent comic.

how you know batman grunted, will forever be lost on me. moving on..."after he blows THEM to..." them??? who is them??? he shoots the ONE, as in SINGLE, again, ONE, mutant! another example you have gotten wrong, showing how little you acctualy retained from DKR. thats the part where he makes a choice, to sacrafice a violent criminals life, for a baby, who still has the potential to NOT be a murderous mutant!!! i had an arnold point i have now forgotten:( but i do like that DKR is in the tradition of a movie made after it! once again.

On a personal level, I find your statement that "you'd make the same decision" to be disturbing. If I ever was in a position that I had to commit murder to save a life, perhaps I would pull the trigger and kill. But I would feel vaguely guilty, ashamed, and nauseous about it for the REST OF MY LIFE. Your degree of comfort, and indeed, PRIDE in your ability to make such a choice easily is repugnant.

"on a pesonal level" lets remember the moderator, told us to not go there. i am totaly offended tha you would make comments on my personal character. this is not the place, nor is it ever the place(even on a message board) for you to make judgements about the moral dillema that a person you don't even know may face, despite the decision they made. but i suppose that says more about you, than it does about me! on a personal level i find it interesting that you would use quotations on a grouping of words i NEVER wrote. again just showing how you put things together in your head. incorrectly.(sp, ironic that i would mis-spell that word)
you also assume(never good) i would make that decision easily, or that i would not feel guilt, but rather pride. it's repugnant that you would feel it appropriate for you too do so. this shows how you put connentations(sp) on things, where they are not, as you're doing with DKR. thats incorrect of you, which most assumptions are. also i didn't ask you how you felt about MY decision, but thanks for trying to make me look like an ass! kudos!

The fact that Frank Miller BELIEVES that Batman is not a hero does not mean that Batman is not a hero. I can "believe" that Batman is really a banana and write him as yellow, creamy, and delicious, but then I would be mistaken. Batman is a man, not a fruit.

the line you are trying to draw is...well...not straight. millers interpretation(another KEY word) of batman, is exactly that, an interpretation. nothing more. it is not THE DEFINITIVE BATMAN!!! BESIDES IT'S A FREAKING ELSE-WORLDS! i'm sorry if others decided it was "the" batman, and followed in the regular titles, i truely am sorry for that. it's not supposed to be regular canon batman!!! i don't think that point gets any clearer.

So, there's an agreement that Batman was written out of character in DKR? Good, that was my point.

no, your point is that miller doesn't KNOW HOW to write batman.
my point is that he DID NOT WANT to write the "batman" that you were looking for. the dark knight in millers books, is millers batman. it's called millers batman, because it has a life of it's own, unlike any other batman. this is because most people who put a stamp on batman did it in the monthly, like neal adams, and denny o'neil. they helped define "the" monthly batman. miller did it outside of that, and has stayed there since. he defined HIS batman. another point i don't think i can make any clearer for you, as i say it for the umpteenth time!

Also, I totally agree with this statement. Frank Miller was writing somebody, but it sure wasn't Batman.

again it was never supposed too be, that batman. the idea is that it's a different time, different universe even, alternate is a better word for it, alternate universe. again ELSE-WORLDS is the KEY WORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!as in not the same world that normal batman comes from!!! therefore NOT THE SAME BATMAN!!!

As said earlier, if DKR was explained as being an "Imaginary Story" with a totally different character, I would have no problem with the series.

BUT IT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!SO WHAT IS YOUR BEEF????????????GET A CLUE. I DON'T MEAN TO BE RUDE, but seriously man, you're willing to excuse it if it was an else-worlds, well news flash...IT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!as i said several times before, see above. DKR IS AN ELSE-WORLDS! just in case you've missd that so far.

However, in cases like ALL-STAR BATMAN AND ROBIN, Miller's variant characterization is pointed to as gospel,

well...you are the FIRST person i have seen who has refered to all-star as the gospel. most fans seem to hate it already. fine. DC conciders the all-star books to be out of continuity. from millers point of view, it is in Dark Knight continuity, along with ALL of millers other batman books, they do not stand in main continuity. YEAR ONE was written for-hire. this means DC paid miler to do something spacific, i.e. write a batman origin...in continuity! all-star had no set of rules in millers case. he's alowed to run free, for the fact that he does NOT write in continuity batman, they are in what is commonly refered to as: THE MILLER-VERSE. not DCU canon. millers batman books have no bearing on canon batman, there fore if miller wants batman to HAVE or even CHOOSE to kill, he can. again like it or leave it, it's what you get when you go with miller...

[the goddamn batman]

PART 2-- i went way over the 1000 word limit, so i gotta double post! wow! :rolleyes:


somebody needs to stand up and say that Miller just didn't get Batman then, and doesn't get him now.

well that is just your opinion, but i will gather from your incorrect facts, and quotes that nobody said, that mabey you don't get miller, or his intent with the character. nor the placement of the book in continuity, either way. i know alot comic writers and artists, miller and gaiman specifically, (two of comics most talented writers, depending on who you ask...i guess)feel that batman works in at least a dozen different ways, (not just the one you or I like) and none of them is wrong, just different. i personally don't see anything wrong with different.

julian, you have every right in the world to not like DKR, for whatever reasons you decide. afterall, there is alot of batman that i think stinks! however, next time you decide you've got facts about it's terrible quality, check em first, try re-reading, or reading slower, as you seem to have missed much in DKR. i reccomend a lesser loved book aswell, you might find someone who agrees with you:) keep in mind, i'm probably a much bigger geek, with way more time on his hands! i mean no disrespect, even though i feel you meant me pleanty of disrespect, with your comments on my character. thanks again for that! i also didn't mean for the CAPS to be screaming, more about emphasis on certian words.

i do not fancy frank miller a god, but his batman sure is fun to read, for me atleast.


as for the delay on all-star, miller never set out to write an "iconic" batman, and DC never told him he was supposed too. i doubt it's a forced re write. possibly a chosen one, but the delay is most likely to let jim lee get ahead on issues, for a more reliable release schedule in the future. when miller does batman, i'm pretty sure he drives, or he walks. off the project, that is.

i guess i should also state that all-star, IS indeed out of regular continuity!!! as in, NOT in regular continuity. but it is in miller-continuity.

[cactusmaac]

I frankly, don't agree that it exudes craft; it's COBRA with Sylvester Stallone as Batman. A dumb eighties action movie with a hero spitting one liners and carrying a tank and machine gun.

"Hey Joker, remember vhen I said I'd kill you last?"

"I lied."

That was from Commando with Arnie, not Cobra with Stallone.

The classic line from that goes:

Supermarket Killer: Get back! I got a bomb here! I'll blow this whole
place up!

Marion Cobretti: Go ahead. I don't shop here.

Well, let me name you one right off the top of my head: Batman, in his early appearances, used a gun. It has been established later, however, that Batman never uses lethal weapons.

My point is this: Batman using a gun was fine for his early issues where the character has yet to find his identity. In 1986, however, Batman coming out in a tank and machine gunning children or breaking the wrist of a man against a car window is not only loathesome, but does no credit to Batman's style and finesse.

That would make sense if the early Batman stories dramatically varied in tone and content. They didn't. The choice to lighten Batman up and make him a paragon of heoric virtue and divorce him from his pulp roots was a commercial and creative one, to make the character more palatable to children.

Batman was a brutal killer in the early issues and was on the run from the cops as much as he was from the criminals. That's not the version I'd want to read now, but it existed and to deny it as simply being a case of the creators finding their feet doesn't hold water.


Previously, Batman fought crime because he believed it was RIGHT. After Miller, he fought crime because he MUST.

According to the classic two-page origin, he did it to get revenge on all criminals for the death of his parents.


Julius Schwartz, Frank Robbins, Dennis O'Neil, and Steve Englehart gave Batman back his darkness, not Frank Miller. Miller was a Johnny-come-lately.


Well, mostly O'Neil and Adams. Still, wider interest in a darker, non-campy Batman didn't take off until after Miller did DKR.



The sense of humor in DKR was truly vile. There was one gag about a pair of persons smoking dope and talking about what a fascist Batman is. Yeah, okay, fine, fine, I get it: Frank Miller doesn't like people that vote differently than he does.

I think the point Miller was making was that unlike say Superman, lots of different people react quite differently to having Batman in their midst.


Ditto for the "Robin, the Boy Hostage" crack. He's laughing AT the characters, not WITH them, attacking Robin's competence by getting a laugh at the untrue fact he was a perpetual victim.

That seemed to be more of an affectionate jest than a malicious swipe.

If it was, you wonder why Batman silently cries out for Dick to come help him when the Mutant Leader is beating the hell out of him.


Batman is NOT a killer. The grunting, monosyllabic "I believe you" line after he blows them to Kingdom Come, a one-liner out of an Arnold Schwartzennegger in the tradition of "stick around" was the frosting on a manure-flavored cake of a very unintelligent comic.

I'm quite sure he at most injured the mutant. Otherwise why go through the mental agony of deciding whether or not the Joker deserved to die at his hands? Who would the cops go after him for apparently murdering the Joker but not for killing the mutant?

Plus "I believe you" to me seems to be delivered in a tone of horror that somebody would willingly murder a bawling child to save themselves from jail.

[Sk8maven]

The BIG problem with "All-Star Batman & Robin" is that the whole "New All-Star Line" was peddled to us as "THE Iconic Version of the Characters".

There's an "Iconic Version" of Batman & Robin - but Miller's is NOT it.

Maven

[the goddamn batman]

The BIG problem with "All-Star Batman & Robin" is that the whole "New All-Star Line" was peddled to us as "THE Iconic Version of the Characters".

There's an "Iconic Version" of Batman & Robin - but Miller's is NOT it.

well, not iconic canon batman. but it is iconic miller batman. :D
no i understand you, i'm just teasin'

once you put that aside, i think it's a good book so far, it will read better collected, when it's done.

i guessed by iconic that it meant bruce and dick, two face, joker, gordon, selina, alfred, and barbra. iconic like that. no jason, or tim, or steph, or oracl(babs, but not yet oracl), no hush, no cassandra, hell soon selina won't even be catwoman anymore. these are stories told out of time, in a classic setting. with the instantly recognizeable characters, the "iconic" characters, if you will. with rotating writer/artist teams, doing story archs.

franks been showin love for the spiffy silver age as of late. the batmobile/plane, so silver age, (god i hope miller has dick name the "batmobile" like in DKR) jims art kinda changes that, but the idea, and how frank would draw it. but jims one panel of it doin that loop was so frank miller style!

miller said that there were no rules on the book, that anybody told to him. only that it had to have robin in it. then miller required the "boy wonder" part, or he wouldn't do it. its the sprang influence, gadgets hooooooooo!

and if anybody thinks batman is acting like marv. he isn't, marv makes batman look like a pansy. :p

i think it's going to be great, can't wait for #3, i think we will all be surprised!

[jaguarshark]

The BIG problem with "All-Star Batman & Robin" is that the whole "New All-Star Line" was peddled to us as "THE Iconic Version of the Characters".

There's an "Iconic Version" of Batman & Robin - but Miller's is NOT it.

I agree that the MAIN problem with the book, in terms of the way it has been recieved, is that we were promised an iconic version of the character and we were given Miller's newest take instead.
BUT, that's not Miller's problem. He can't control what DC tells people he's going to write, he just has to write what he feels like writing. Miller's problem, as far as I can see, is the truly idiotic scripting of the first two issues. I wouldn't mind if he gave us something new and different, if it was well-written. But honestly, so far, Miller's writing on 'ASB&R' has been brutal. Brutal. It's been brutal.

[gl247]

I got issues 1 & 2 and I didn't like it at all. I'm still going to give the book a chance. If issue 3 sucks than I'm dropping the book.

I haven't gone through all the other posts thus far... But I'm with YA. The artwork is stunning as I've always come to expect from Jim Lee, but I'm still not sold on the story. I love Miller's work, but this one so far has me scratching my head. I'll check out #3 and see where it goes from there.