Claremont really hates Cyclops

[The Dosadi Experiment]

Claremont really hates Scott Summers.

Throughout his runs he has had Scott be the one who was morally flawed. The uptight asshole who you just don't want to see living a happy life with anybody, because he's just a cold egotistical bastard.

First witness... Madelyne Pryor.

Can you blame her for going crazy? She married him, gave him a son, and how did he repay her?
He wasn't even there when she gave birth to Nathan, he didn't show a lot of concern or emotions afterwards when everybody got to meet the newborn. Shortly after that he fought Storm for leadership of the X-men, as if he couldn't just be with Madelyne. Despite of his family, despite of Madelyne and Nathan on an individual basis, he wanted to have a way out, he wanted to have his precious X-men and their adventures. Responsibilities for everything except his wife and child.

Then he fled to his dead girlfriend the moment he discovered she was alive, abandoning his wife and child.

Cyclops chose EVERYTHING over Madelyne and her son.

Second witness... Rachel Grey.

The girl comes from the future, she's his daughter, but did he ever give her any attention? Did he ever show concern for her? Traumatized and torn up, she was always there for Cable. But who was there for her? Not Cyclops!

As the poor girl struggled through life Cyclops ignored her completely. And now she's back, only to discover that her father has replaced her mother with the bitch that tried to kill her and her mother on several occaisons.

And did Cyclops sit down with her to explain? Not once! He ignored her. Denied her her feelings. In his absence he shows his true colours.

Under Claremont the character has never had a decent moment where he appeared as something more than being a cold-hearted egomaniacal absent-father figure. Claremont has never really depicted Scott as a decent human being.

Claremont hates Cyclops...

and quite frankly, I can't blame him.

[Smarty Jones]

You forgot the exhibit of Cyclops messing over Jean Grey herself, re: his astral plane affair with Emma Frost. And soon as Jean was placed in the ground after "Planet X," Cyclops and Frost were standing over her grave locking lips.

Also, didn't Frost say something snide to The Beast at Jean's gravesite while they were together? Oh, yeah:

Beast: "Are you two paying your last respects?"

Emma Frost: "Scott was."

Cyclops stood there, and didn't say anything.

And the exchange between The Beast and Cyclops at the end was classic:

Beast: "I like Emma, but don't you think it’s a bit … disrespectful to have these displays with her… to kiss her at Jean’s gravesite?"

Cyclops, with a cold response: "Isn’t it hypocritical to pretend I feel otherwise? If Jean is still 'around,' either as a ghost or in heaven or otherwise, she knows what I'm doing anyway."

Cyclops is arguably the biggest asshole in comic books.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

And if you use the excuse that Scott never even knew Rachel, and therefore he hasn't been able to build a bond with her, think of the boot onthe other foot.

Nathan wasn't even Jean's kid. He was Madalyne's. But did she ever let him down? No. Heck she even went into the future with Cyclops to raise him.

[Smarty Jones]

"And if you use the excuse that Scott never even knew Rachel, and therefore he hasn't been able to build a bond with her, think of the boot onthe other foot.

Nathan wasn't even Jean's kid. He was Madalyne's. But did she ever let him down? No. Heck she even went into the future with Cyclops to raise him."

In "The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix," Jean seemed to be more loving and nurturing to young Nathan than Cyclops did.

Not to mention their interactions in the present. Don't you think Cyclops' and Cable's relationship is a little ... cold? Cable actually seems more open in their exchanges than Cyclops. And that still doesn't excuse the fact that Cyclops left Nathan as a child when Jean came back, and seemingly acts like a cold fish around him.

[Joe Rice]

Claremont has a problem with him because Scott isn't a "strong woman" who is "in charge" of "her" own "life."

[Beast]

You forgot the exhibit of Cyclops messing over Jean Grey herself, re: his astral plane affair with Emma Frost. And soon as Jean was placed in the ground after "Planet X," Cyclops and Frost were standing over her grave locking lips.

Also, didn't Frost say something snide to The Beast at Jean's gravesite while they were together? Oh, yeah:

Beast: "Are you two paying your last respects?"

Emma Frost: "Scott was."

Cyclops stood there, and didn't say anything.

And the exchange between The Beast and Cyclops at the end was classic:

Beast: "I like Emma, but don't you think it’s a bit … disrespectful to have these displays with her… to kiss her at Jean’s gravesite?"

Cyclops, with a cold response: "Isn’t it hypocritical to pretend I feel otherwise? If Jean is still 'around,' either as a ghost or in heaven or otherwise, she knows what I'm doing anyway."

Cyclops is arguably the biggest asshole in comic books.
Of course, given that Jean gave Scott a nudge from the White Hot Room to be happy with Emma, she clearly wasn't standing in the way of the two getting together. Yes, sucking face on Jean's grave is a bit cold, but some blame does go to Jean. Of course, not like she had a choice. Here Comes Tommorow would have come to pass without direct intervention from Jean in Cyclop's life from the WHR. :)

[The Lucky One]

You guys are a little off-base, I have to say. Claremont himself -- while he may not have loved the character, I honestly don't know, and certainly preferred Storm -- always showed Scott as restrained by his responsibility... it wasn't that he didn't feel emotions, he just would never allow himself to show them, and thus never learned how to do so even with people he should have, like Madelyne and baby Nathan. Did he devote himself too much to his job? Yeah, probably; like millions of men worldwide who weren't present at the birth of their children. That doesn't automatically make him a bad father, or make him love his family any less... if Spider-Man were fighting a villain and didn't manage to make it to Mary Jane giving birth, I'm guessing no one would give him as hard a time. Oh wait, that already happened.

I'm not going to argue with you guys that Scott leaving his wife and frenching Emma over Jean's grave weren't terrible, rather out-of-character moves... they were. What you probably should remember, though, before you talk about Claremont hating the character is that he wasn't responsible for either of those things. Editorial edict demanded that Scott reunite with Jean, so the X-Factor writers made that happen... Claremont just showed the aftermath. Grant Morrison had Cyclops and Emma getting together, not Claremont. And as for him not consoling Rachel since Jean's death, Cyclops isn't Claremont's character right now... if Joss Whedon wanted to write that story, he would have. For all we know, Claremont wanted to do a story about that but was told Cyclops wasn't available. By all means, argue that those are very out-of-character, cold actions on Scott's part, but don't lay it at Claremont's feet... it wasn't his doing.

-D

[Daithi]

Actually Rachel and Scott bonded alot during the Asgard Wars storyline. If anything Scott connected better with Rachel and accepted her better than Jean ever did. Kitty also made a pointed comment during that time that Scott and Rachel were more alike than both cared to admit.

When Rachel thought Scott was injured she dropped to her knees and called out for Daddy. She took out Alpha Flight because they may have harmed Scott. She bonded with Nathan because she was his brother because of Scott.

However at some point Claremont completely broke the bond between Rachel and Scott. This was possibly around the time that Rachel screamed that she wasn't ready to see Scott despite the fact she had seen him before during the Asgard storyline.

From that point on it in Claremont's books Scott was removed completely from Rachel. Rachel visits Jean playing with Nathan in X-Factor. She says that if Jean or Nathan need help she'll be there. No mention of Scott. When Rachel is tied to Galactus's machine she yells out "Mom". During the "Crosstime cape" Rachel visits several alternate Jean Greys. Again Scott was never shown.

In X-Men True Friends, when Rachel is being attacked by the Shadow King on the astral plane, she is attacked by everyone except Scott. Than the Shadow King brings out Jean, the one who Rachel loves above all others. No mention of Scott at all.

Rachel doesn't say one word to Scott when she gets back. Instead the conflict is shifted to Rachel and Emma not Scott.

When other writers made Rachel the Mother Askani (which apparently Claremont hates or dislikes) Rachel formed another bond with her entire family. Scott tells her that he's sorry he never treated her much like a daughter and that he loves her. Yet now, Emma says that Rachel should never have being born and Scott says nothing.

Very disappointing because I like Rachel being Scott's daughter. I loved them during the Asgard Wars and the Askani. Now that's dropped in favour of Rachel "it's all about Jean" Grey. I mean Rachel spends more time with frikken Logan. The man who once tried to kill her. :mad:

[Smarty Jones]

"Of course, given that Jean gave Scott a nudge from the White Hot Room to be happy with Emma, she clearly wasn't standing in the way of the two getting together. Yes, sucking face on Jean's grave is a bit cold, but some blame does go to Jean. Of course, not like she had a choice. Here Comes Tommorow would have come to pass without direct intervention from Jean in Cyclop's life from the WHR. :)"

I don't know how much of the blame should go to Jean, because as a telepath she likely saw that Cyclops wanted to be with Emma Frost. If I'm correct, this conversation happened AFTER she caught them having a psychic affair.

The fact is you have a cheating husband who is exchanging tongue with his mistress over his now-dead wife's grave. That is disrespectful, no matter how you slice it.

[Smarty Jones]

"I'm not going to argue with you guys that Scott leaving his wife and frenching Emma over Jean's grave weren't terrible, rather out-of-character moves... they were. What you probably should remember, though, before you talk about Claremont hating the character is that he wasn't responsible for either of those things. Editorial edict demanded that Scott reunite with Jean, so the X-Factor writers made that happen... Claremont just showed the aftermath. Grant Morrison had Cyclops and Emma getting together, not Claremont. And as for him not consoling Rachel since Jean's death, Cyclops isn't Claremont's character right now... if Joss Whedon wanted to write that story, he would have. For all we know, Claremont wanted to do a story about that but was told Cyclops wasn't available. By all means, argue that those are very out-of-character, cold actions on Scott's part, but don't lay it at Claremont's feet... it wasn't his doing."

I'll need to clarify myself, then.

I wasn't criticizing Chris Claremont for those events happening with Cyclops, because Claremont really has nothing to do with most of them.

I'm criticizing Cyclops' character in general.

Sorry for the confusion.

[The Fury]

You forgot the exhibit of Cyclops messing over Jean Grey herself, re: his astral plane affair with Emma Frost. And soon as Jean was placed in the ground after "Planet X," Cyclops and Frost were standing over her grave locking lips.

Claremont wrote that? :confused:

[The Lucky One]

I'm criticizing Cyclops' character in general.

Sorry for the confusion.

No, it's fine... but I don't at all feel that these actions are representative of the character in general. The Cyclops I read about, the one I remember from countless back issues, would never do those things. Musta been an evil doppleganger or something.

-D

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Claremont wrote that? :confused:




Of course not. Hardly relevent in this arguament, is it?

[The Fury]

Claremont really hates Scott Summers.
Rights...lets see. Persoanlly I think he did like him.

After all he was the only character from the original X-men to stay with the team. He did make him into a great character for many many issues, Turned him into a great leader of the X-men.

CC made Cyclops lose the love of his life after she went mad. The guys been through a lot.

What he is not good at is commitment and family stuff.

[The Fury]

Of course not. Hardly relevent in this arguament, is it?
That is my point. ;)

[Hi-Fi]

Claremont has a problem with him because Scott isn't a "strong woman" who is "in charge" of "her" own "life."

Agreed.









...

[Joe Rice]

Many writers will around one character as the foil, as the example of how they think someone shouldn't be. Logan is cool because he's not like Scott. Ororororororo is cool because she's not like Scott. Claremont doesn't like Scott, it's clear. The entire "uptight, unemotional leader" cliche character is what Claremont made him. The insanely dumb marathon high school love affair with the red head and the complete lack of any sort of character development other than regression and "yes, he's still the uptight, upright leader guy" turned Scott into an almost unreadable character for years.

The entire point of Morrison's run was to fix Scott into a real character again. Unfortunately, change is about as welcome as herpes in the X-books, so now it's just another example about how Scott is a big mean jerk who isn't as cool as strong women.

[Haunt]

You forgot the exhibit of Cyclops messing over Jean Grey herself, re: his astral plane affair with Emma Frost. And soon as Jean was placed in the ground after "Planet X," Cyclops and Frost were standing over her grave locking lips.

Also, didn't Frost say something snide to The Beast at Jean's gravesite while they were together? Oh, yeah:

Beast: "Are you two paying your last respects?"

Emma Frost: "Scott was."

Cyclops stood there, and didn't say anything.

And the exchange between The Beast and Cyclops at the end was classic:

Beast: "I like Emma, but don't you think it’s a bit … disrespectful to have these displays with her… to kiss her at Jean’s gravesite?"

Cyclops, with a cold response: "Isn’t it hypocritical to pretend I feel otherwise? If Jean is still 'around,' either as a ghost or in heaven or otherwise, she knows what I'm doing anyway."

Cyclops is arguably the biggest asshole in comic books.

or maybe the writers are the biggest aholes in the comic industry. Cyclops hasn't always been a deadbeat or jerk.

In "The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix," Jean seemed to be more loving and nurturing to young Nathan than Cyclops did.

Not to mention their interactions in the present. Don't you think Cyclops' and Cable's relationship is a little ... cold? Cable actually seems more open in their exchanges than Cyclops. And that still doesn't excuse the fact that Cyclops left Nathan as a child when Jean came back, and seemingly acts like a cold fish around him.

might it have something to do with the fact that Nate had a nurturing mother (and protective father) and Scott didn't? and when you talk about how open Cable is, consider how many of his old friends have tried to kill him. Cable, throughout the 90's, was a colossal d*ck. GW Bridge, Garrison Kane, Hammer, Grizzly, Rictor, X-Force; who didn't hold a grudge against this guy?

[heystacy]

What made him terrible was that he abandoned his wife and child. I can't imagine that this man was so cold as to sacrifie his life to save the world, but his wife and son didn't mean squat.

Oddly, Scott did Jean the same way. He fell for Emma, and it was like he forgot who Jean was.

[Grendel0606]

Claremont really hates Scott Summers.

Throughout his runs he has had Scott be the one who was morally flawed. The uptight asshole who you just don't want to see living a happy life with anybody, because he's just a cold egotistical bastard.

First witness... Madelyne Pryor.

Can you blame her for going crazy? She married him, gave him a son, and how did he repay her?
He wasn't even there when she gave birth to Nathan, he didn't show a lot of concern or emotions afterwards when everybody got to meet the newborn. Shortly after that he fought Storm for leadership of the X-men, as if he couldn't just be with Madelyne. Despite of his family, despite of Madelyne and Nathan on an individual basis, he wanted to have a way out, he wanted to have his precious X-men and their adventures. Responsibilities for everything except his wife and child.

Then he fled to his dead girlfriend the moment he discovered she was alive, abandoning his wife and child.

Cyclops chose EVERYTHING over Madelyne and her son.

Second witness... Rachel Grey.

The girl comes from the future, she's his daughter, but did he ever give her any attention? Did he ever show concern for her? Traumatized and torn up, she was always there for Cable. But who was there for her? Not Cyclops!

As the poor girl struggled through life Cyclops ignored her completely. And now she's back, only to discover that her father has replaced her mother with the bitch that tried to kill her and her mother on several occaisons.

And did Cyclops sit down with her to explain? Not once! He ignored her. Denied her her feelings. In his absence he shows his true colours.

Under Claremont the character has never had a decent moment where he appeared as something more than being a cold-hearted egomaniacal absent-father figure. Claremont has never really depicted Scott as a decent human being.

Claremont hates Cyclops...

and quite frankly, I can't blame him.
Actually Claremont wrote Cyclops as IMMENSELY likeable - basically the normal, somewhat repressed guy in an otherwise exotic team - up until issue 200 or so. Best example for that: Uncanny #175: he had Cyke be capable of defeating the whole team AND MAstermind for the woman he loved.
But it is also very obvious that Claremont started to totally dislike the character when other writers had cyclops become the heel who left Madelyne and Nathan.

[heystacy]

Actually Claremont wrote Cyclops as IMMENSELY likeable - basically the normal, somewhat repressed guy in an otherwise exotic team - up until issue 200 or so. Best example for that: Uncanny #175: he had Cyke be capable of defeating the whole team AND MAstermind for the woman he loved.
But it is also very obvious that Claremont started to totally dislike the character when other writers had cyclops become the heel who left Madelyne and Nathan.


Claremont could fix that...

Didn't Scott leave Maddie and son to form X-Factor? I thought that was low of him. Really low. Of course Sinsiter was trying to off his wife, and his child turned up missing what what does 'Clops do? Nuttin? Bastard? ;)

[Tommy]

Oddly, Scott did Jean the same way. He fell for Emma, and it was like he forgot who Jean was.
Well a lot of that was Jean stopped being human.

[ibrakeforchinwe]

Maybe he doesnt hate Scott, just loves the Grey women.

[heystacy]

Well a lot of that was Jean stopped being human.

Point taken. But that better for worse part of marriage must be ommitted from Scott's vows. Also there is a pattern. Why is Cyclops waiting for the next best thing?

Technically when a couple gets married in movies or stories, its the end of their adventures. Making Scott an ass may have been the only way to give him more stories.

[Tommy]

Point taken. But that better for worse part of marriage must be ommitted from Scott's vows. Also there is a pattern. Why is Cyclops waiting for the next best thing?
And how many times has Jean made out with Wolverine? Long before Scott had his thing with Emma she made it perfectly clear she wanted to bump uglies with him dispite being married.

[Brian M.]

And how many times has Jean made out with Wolverine? Long before Scott had his thing with Emma she made it perfectly clear she wanted to bump uglies with him dispite being married.

Do not turn this into a Scott/Jean/Logan/Emma thread, it's been done. It's ugly and it won't change anyone's opinions. Scott character was written pretty well I thought in the X-Men #1-3 2nd Series.

[Novaya Havoc]

Claremont has a problem with him because Scott isn't a "strong woman" who is "in charge" of "her" own "life."

<lol> Quote of the year.

I agree with posters who say he is supposed to be the foil that makes the other characters stronger, cooler, or what-have-you. It seems that Cyclops -- the typical, strong, WASPy, male leader figurehead is supposed to represent the man, both in the sense of gender and the institution.

Storm represents the capable minority and woman, who -- although she is always "Number 2" is clearly the more qualified.
Wolverine represents the anarchist/revolutionary, whose disregard for the rules shows that the institution is largely inept and ineffective when individuals "put their minds" to it. If Wolverine had the "drive" to challenge Cyclops - the exemplar of the bureaucratic sycophant - he could supplant it and go for the institution itself (Xavier). But he doesn't, representing our own inability to tackle these institutions. Xavier is another discussion.

That's why I never really liked Claremont's writing style because it was far too metaphorical and stereotypical. All characters existed to serve a set purpose -- mostly in terms of power -- and often failed to really work as a team. Some call him a feminist; I'd rather call him a fetishist. Cyclops gets the big shaft, though, as representing the male and the sycophant.


On another note, the other character I found Claremont "never liked" was Dazzler, who -- ironically -- was a "strong woman" when not being written by him, and then became dependent and a novice when he did write her in New Mutants and Uncanny X-Men. I'm not sure if that was a personal gruge considering Dazzler was the only non-Claremontian mutant character in the 1980s, or what. C'est la vie.

-B

[LoneWolf21]

On another note, the other character I found Claremont "never liked" was Dazzler, who -- ironically -- was a "strong woman" when not being written by him, and then became dependent and a novice when he did write her in New Mutants and Uncanny X-Men. I'm not sure if that was a personal gruge considering Dazzler was the only non-Claremontian mutant character in the 1980s, or what. C'est la vie.

-B

Well there was also Firestar, who he wrote in one issue, then sent on her way (although this may have had something to do with the plotline of her mini-series) although he certainly could have put her in New Mutants later, She already had a built-in connection with Cannonball.

[Novaya Havoc]

Ah -- forgot about Firestar. Good call.

-B

[The Lucky One]

That's why I never really liked Claremont's writing style because it was far too metaphorical and stereotypical. All characters existed to serve a set purpose -- mostly in terms of power -- and often failed to really work as a team. Some call him a feminist; I'd rather call him a fetishist. Cyclops gets the big shaft, though, as representing the male and the sycophant.

Orrrrrr..... it's possible you're reading entirely too much into a series of funnybook adventures. Sometimes a cigar IS just a cigar.
:rolleyes:

-D

[Novaya Havoc]

Orrrrrr..... it's possible you're reading entirely too much into a series of funnybook adventures. Sometimes a cigar IS just a cigar.
:rolleyes:

-D

Yeah, I know. But without reading metaphor in simple sentences, we wouldn't have legions of high school students reading Hemingway, and would have English majors without any sense of self-worth. ;P

There are metaphors in X-Men. MUTANTS are metaphors. Comic books themselves are giant metaphors. There's no way around it.

-B

[Joe Rice]

I've never understood the aversion to analysis in comics. Do you think they won't hold up to it? The best comics not only hold up, but thrive and show their true colors under examination and analysis.

[The Lucky One]

Yeah, I know. But without reading metaphor in simple sentences, we wouldn't have legions of high school students reading Hemingway, and would have English majors without any sense of self-worth. ;P

Hey, my sense of self-worth is just fine, thank you! Now do you want that super-sized or not?

I've never understood the aversion to analysis in comics. Do you think they won't hold up to it? The best comics not only hold up, but thrive and show their true colors under examination and analysis.

I don't mind analysis at all, I mind overanalysis. By all means, try to delve beneath the surface; just know when to say when. Some of the stuff has deeper, metatextual meaning... a whole lot of it doesn't. Why was random supporting character A seen over Captain America's shoulder wearing a green dress? Is that indicative of his hidden longing for a normal, non-superhero-related relationship, or his secret desire to be a woman? No, it's probably because the colorist liked green. Granted, some comic writers really do want to revolutionize the genre and change the way comics are looked at by the world. Many, many more of them just want to tell some good, fun stories and get paid. Do I think Claremont had a set archetype that he wanted Cyclops to be representative of from the start? No, I think he came onto the book green, portrayed Cyclops as a very capable, cool leader for a long time and used Wolverine for comic relief, and then the two both began to shift in roles, which they continued to do throughout his run. Do I think Morrison DID have a deeper meaning or archetype he wanted Cyclops to fit into? Possibly, one he formulated from looking back at what Claremont did with him... but it's the difference between writing Grendel based on the classic poem Beowulf, and arguing that the ancient poets intended Beowulf right from the very beginning to be representative of sex and death and the heroic archetype and blah-de-blah-de-blah.

-D

[DDM]

And how many times has Jean made out with Wolverine? Long before Scott had his thing with Emma she made it perfectly clear she wanted to bump uglies with him dispite being married.

In Chris Claremont's original Uncanny X-Men run, Wolverine had an unrequited love for Jean Grey; however, neither made out with each other. Jean Grey left the school with Angel, Iceman, Polaris, & Havok. In Uncanny X-Men #114-115, Wolverine was beside himself with grief that Jean had died along with Hank in Magneto's volcano fortress. But Wolverine eventually met & fell in love with Mariko Yoshida in Uncanny X-Men #118-119. Although Wolverine still had an unrequite love for Jean Grey, he respected Phoenix & Cyclops enough not to interfere in their relationship. Months later, Phoenix became Dark Phoenix & then she killed herself. End of story.

The only time Jean Grey made out with Wolverine was Joe Casey's distorted view of their non-existent love triangle relationship.

[LoneWolf21]

The only time Jean Grey made out with Wolverine was Joe Casey's distorted view of their non-existent love triangle relationship.

Didn't they make-out in X-tinction Agenda? And I think Jean attempted to start something around E for Extinction/Imperial, but Wolverine told her flat-out to forget about, it'd never work.

[Hi-Fi]

Didn't they make-out in X-tinction Agenda? And I think Jean attempted to start something around E for Extinction/Imperial, but Wolverine told her flat-out to forget about, it'd never work.

they kissed in Inferno too.

[The Lucky One]

Slut!!!

-D

[DDM]

they kissed in Inferno too.

Yes, Wolverine did kiss Marvel Girl in Uncanny X-Men #242, but he, as all of the other X-Men, save Colossus, were enchanted by the Goblin Queen's "Inferno."

[heystacy]

And how many times has Jean made out with Wolverine? Long before Scott had his thing with Emma she made it perfectly clear she wanted to bump uglies with him dispite being married.


I am by no means saying Jean is/was a saint. Needless to say she never got it on with Logan. The kissing was dead wrong, but the psychic affair was worse.

For the record, I truly liked Maddie, and felt she and their son got treated poorly by Scott.

I always thought those Wolvie/Jean moments seemed forced, to give her something to do besides being omnipotent.

[LoneWolf21]

I always thought those Wolvie/Jean moments seemed forced, to give her something to do besides being omnipotent.

Well there's always screaming out "I am Phoenix!".

No wait, that was the Fox cartoon version. Who also seemed to faint a lot after she used her powers.

Of course, so did the Martian Manhunter early on in the Justice League cartoon.

Wonder if they went to the same telepathy school?

[heystacy]

Well there's always screaming out "I am Phoenix!".

No wait, that was the Fox cartoon version. Who also seemed to faint a lot after she used her powers.

Of course, so did the Martian Manhunter early on in the Justice League cartoon.

Wonder if they went to the same telepathy school?


The "I am Phoenix" could have fit into the comics, along with multiple caption boxes.

"By name and birthright she is Phonenix."
"Her's is the power...yadda, yadda, yadda"


You get the picture. ;)

[Tennoarashi]

Claremont has written the only Scott I have liked. Ever.

Issue 154 is one of my all-time favourites, simply because of the interaction between Scott and Ororo. It was believable and honest, and he was genuinely a nice guy.

[Novaya Havoc]

DDM -- what's up with the crazy Nancy Pelosi avatar? ;P

[DDM]

DDM -- what's up with the crazy Nancy Pelosi avatar? ;P

It's a funny picture.

[bfrank]

You forgot the exhibit of Cyclops messing over Jean Grey herself, re: his astral plane affair with Emma Frost. And soon as Jean was placed in the ground after "Planet X," Cyclops and Frost were standing over her grave locking lips.

Also, didn't Frost say something snide to The Beast at Jean's gravesite while they were together? Oh, yeah:

Beast: "Are you two paying your last respects?"

Emma Frost: "Scott was."

Cyclops stood there, and didn't say anything.

And the exchange between The Beast and Cyclops at the end was classic:

Beast: "I like Emma, but don't you think it’s a bit … disrespectful to have these displays with her… to kiss her at Jean’s gravesite?"

Cyclops, with a cold response: "Isn’t it hypocritical to pretend I feel otherwise? If Jean is still 'around,' either as a ghost or in heaven or otherwise, she knows what I'm doing anyway."

Cyclops is arguably the biggest asshole in comic books.
but what does that have to do with claremont hating cyke?

[bfrank]

The entire point of Morrison's run was to fix Scott into a real character again. Unfortunately, change is about as welcome as herpes in the X-books, so now it's just another example about how Scott is a big mean jerk who isn't as cool as strong women.
When change is done well it's one thing....all morrison did was give folks another reason to hate cyke...once a cheater, always a cheater, so to speak....

[Cowlander]

Claremont has a problem with him because Scott isn't a "strong woman" who is "in charge" of "her" own "life."
nothing more need be said....

[xakko]

I wish people would stop generalizing Cyke's behavior. Yes, he went to see Jean. Was he leaving Maddie for Jean? Not at this point. Not really, anyway. He didn't just pick up with Jean, and he did return to try to find Maddy. The term, I believe, is shock. And possible programming by Sinister.

I still believe Emma Frost was at least using her telepathy to find the best way to seduce Cyclops, taking advantage of his insecurities and using his confusion to get back at her bitter rival.

[Michael P]

I don't think Claremont hates Scott; I think he just doesn't know how to write him, so he's either struggling to give him a purpose or just writing him off. Bu8t he has given him some great material, most notably in Uncanny 175, which is one of my favorite Cyclops stories ever.

Oh, and I might point out, Claremont didn't write Scott leaving his family after Jean came back. The Simonsons did.

Now, of course, none of this has anything to do with why *fans* hate Scott. Fans hate Scott because they feel that Wolverine, as the cooler of the two, should be the one who gets to bang Jean. They fail to realize what the makers of X2, bless their little hearts, got instinctively: Girls go out with the flashy rebels, but they settle down with the straight-laced, reliable ones.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Claremont really hates Scott Summers.

Throughout his runs he has had Scott be the one who was morally flawed. The uptight asshole who you just don't want to see living a happy life with anybody, because he's just a cold egotistical bastard.

First witness... Madelyne Pryor.

Can you blame her for going crazy? She married him, gave him a son, and how did he repay her?
He wasn't even there when she gave birth to Nathan, he didn't show a lot of concern or emotions afterwards when everybody got to meet the newborn. Shortly after that he fought Storm for leadership of the X-men, as if he couldn't just be with Madelyne. Despite of his family, despite of Madelyne and Nathan on an individual basis, he wanted to have a way out, he wanted to have his precious X-men and their adventures. Responsibilities for everything except his wife and child.

Then he fled to his dead girlfriend the moment he discovered she was alive, abandoning his wife and child.

Cyclops chose EVERYTHING over Madelyne and her son.

Second witness... Rachel Grey.

The girl comes from the future, she's his daughter, but did he ever give her any attention? Did he ever show concern for her? Traumatized and torn up, she was always there for Cable. But who was there for her? Not Cyclops!

As the poor girl struggled through life Cyclops ignored her completely. And now she's back, only to discover that her father has replaced her mother with the bitch that tried to kill her and her mother on several occaisons.

And did Cyclops sit down with her to explain? Not once! He ignored her. Denied her her feelings. In his absence he shows his true colours.

Under Claremont the character has never had a decent moment where he appeared as something more than being a cold-hearted egomaniacal absent-father figure. Claremont has never really depicted Scott as a decent human being.

Claremont hates Cyclops...

and quite frankly, I can't blame him.

Well that was the idea..for Cyclops to be portrayed as a man who betrayed his wife and son for his indomitable "love" for Jean Grey. Who cares. Let Claremont hate him..as long as he loves Magneto and Sinister, I'm good.

[Michael P]

In fact, Dosadi, now that I think of it, Claremont didn't write *any* of that stuff you're talking about. Why not blame someone who's actually in control of the character?

[blue13]

Claremont hates Cyclops...

and quite frankly, I can't blame him.

you hate cyclops because of the stories claremont wrote.

i understand.

but for claremont to hate him makes no sense.

why hate a character for no reason? at least if u hate him because of madelyne and similar storylines, you have a basis.

you know what i'm saying?

[blue13]

When change is done well it's one thing....all morrison did was give folks another reason to hate cyke...once a cheater, always a cheater, so to speak....

and it's fine for jean to kiss wolverine whenever she wants?

i'm glad morrison saw that and put scott with emma.

[Babylon23]

First of all, I think we're distorting things a bit by referencing stories Claremont didn't write at all. All of the Emma stuff was Morrison, and the leaving Maddy thing was Bob Layton in X-Factor.

Scott was an uptight leader right from the Stan Lee days. It took him years to tell Jean how he felt about her. He was always presented as committed to the X-Men over his own personal feelings. Claremont only continued with the characterisation established by Stan Lee and Roy Thomas.

As for Claremont feelings about Scott, I believes he's stated in the past that he wasn't the biggest fan of Cyclops (but I don't have any quotes, so I could be wrong). I know that Uncanny 175 was meant to be Scott's send-off, marrying Maddy and moving to Alaska to live happily ever after, with only guest appearances after this.

[punisher_ryu]

I don't know how much of the blame should go to Jean, because as a telepath she likely saw that Cyclops wanted to be with Emma Frost. If I'm correct, this conversation happened AFTER she caught them having a psychic affair.

The fact is you have a cheating husband who is exchanging tongue with his mistress over his now-dead wife's grave. That is disrespectful, no matter how you slice it.

but would scott of chosen emma over jean,i highly doubt it.if jean lived,she and scott would of either worked things out or ended up hating eachother due to a chain of bad decisions.this is the love of his life,and as claremont has proven,his soulmate.also,dont forget these characters arent real,and writers change,as do characterizations.stop demonizing scott,and stop putting all the blame on him(TO ALL).jean has done the same with logan(minus mental affair),why should she be excused.scott clearly chose jean,he stated this at her death.if jean does come back,the only thing keeping him with emma is that emma wont leave him like jean did.he stated this in endsong.

[punisher_ryu]

What made him terrible was that he abandoned his wife and child. I can't imagine that this man was so cold as to sacrifie his life to save the world, but his wife and son didn't mean squat.

Oddly, Scott did Jean the same way. He fell for Emma, and it was like he forgot who Jean was.

i wouldnt go that far,he was having problems with jean,and it drove him to emma.he didnt pick emma over jean.

[punisher_ryu]

Point taken. But that better for worse part of marriage must be ommitted from Scott's vows. Also there is a pattern. Why is Cyclops waiting for the next best thing?

Technically when a couple gets married in movies or stories, its the end of their adventures. Making Scott an ass may have been the only way to give him more stories.

its not like xmen is ending any time soon,they got to do something with him.look,morrison wrote scott and jeans relationship horribly,and on purpose i think.he obviously(if u read his interviews) is a big fan of emma,and doesnt like the scott/jean pairing.he was allowed to much freedom,and he ruined scott,gave new layers to emma,and made the phoenix more powerfull,but ultimately recked jeans character.

[punisher_ryu]

And how many times has Jean made out with Wolverine? Long before Scott had his thing with Emma she made it perfectly clear she wanted to bump uglies with him dispite being married.

over-exageration.she saw something in him that reminds her of herself,and it drew her to him.she doesnt want to bump uglies.scott is the love of her life,as she has stated.and just b/c she is attracted to logan,doesnt mean she doesnt feel the same attraction for scott.and she only initiated 1 kiss,the others she stopped(after a few seconds).

[punisher_ryu]

I am by no means saying Jean is/was a saint. Needless to say she never got it on with Logan. The kissing was dead wrong, but the psychic affair was worse.

For the record, I truly liked Maddie, and felt she and their son got treated poorly by Scott.

I always thought those Wolvie/Jean moments seemed forced, to give her something to do besides being omnipotent.

i agree with u on the last part.

[punisher_ryu]

When change is done well it's one thing....all morrison did was give folks another reason to hate cyke...once a cheater, always a cheater, so to speak....

u were doing good till u called scott a cheater.yes he cheated,but morrison wrote him.and morrison hated the relationship between scott and jean.

[punisher_ryu]

I wish people would stop generalizing Cyke's behavior. Yes, he went to see Jean. Was he leaving Maddie for Jean? Not at this point. Not really, anyway. He didn't just pick up with Jean, and he did return to try to find Maddy. The term, I believe, is shock. And possible programming by Sinister.

I still believe Emma Frost was at least using her telepathy to find the best way to seduce Cyclops, taking advantage of his insecurities and using his confusion to get back at her bitter rival.

u cant generalize a character if the character is written by many different ppl who all feel differently about the character.

[punisher_ryu]

I don't think Claremont hates Scott; I think he just doesn't know how to write him, so he's either struggling to give him a purpose or just writing him off. Bu8t he has given him some great material, most notably in Uncanny 175, which is one of my favorite Cyclops stories ever.

Oh, and I might point out, Claremont didn't write Scott leaving his family after Jean came back. The Simonsons did.

Now, of course, none of this has anything to do with why *fans* hate Scott. Fans hate Scott because they feel that Wolverine, as the cooler of the two, should be the one who gets to bang Jean. They fail to realize what the makers of X2, bless their little hearts, got instinctively: Girls go out with the flashy rebels, but they settle down with the straight-laced, reliable ones.

right................i think it goes deeper than that.or simply,jean went for the guy that she both loved and was attracted to,instead of going for the guy that she was simply attracted to.

[punisher_ryu]

In fact, Dosadi, now that I think of it, Claremont didn't write *any* of that stuff you're talking about. Why not blame someone who's actually in control of the character?

THATS WHAT IVE BEEN SAYING,DONT BLAME SCOTT,BLAME THE WRITER!!!!!!!

[punisher_ryu]

and it's fine for jean to kiss wolverine whenever she wants?

i'm glad morrison saw that and put scott with emma.

*GAG*..........



*COUGH*...........*COUGH*...........




*BARF*!!!!!!!!

[xgeek52]

*sigh*...here we go again...claremont doesn't hate the character...all his past efforts reflect that and i'm not going to get into the wherefor and whereas in that regard...

what you guys need to realize is that a lot of writers have had their fingers in the pie when it comes to the character...from what i read (correct me if i'm wrong) you want to paint the character as a bad guy...consider the lee/kirby run he was this shy kid who got hung up on this stylish redhead flirt...claremont and byrne made him stay behind while jean went out and got a life...then she died and he's supposed to fall on the sword and not live a life...

if you look at everything claremont is honoring the character by making him totally human...i may not have liked the morrison run but he did right by the character by showing that his encounter with apocalyse and his 'death' changed him...putting him with emma (and i still not crazy about it) made the character realistic...the relationship is more adult...claremont just takes it a step further...in phoenix: endsong and in the end (both books), claremont shows scott as an adult with all the agnst of an adult who is faced with the responsibilities of being a leader and a family man...he has and always will love jean...that will not change... but in those two books he shows the man loving his wife and family as a man should...what scott did with madelyne, jean and emma is not claremont's work as a writer...check the issues...

marvel locked the man into portraying the character a certain way...it was lobell and kubert (uncanny 308 i think) that brought about the proposal and it was kubert and nicieza that did the wedding...scott's wandering after ororo beat him for the leadership and his encounter with lee forrester and meeting madelyne was not claremont...

let's have this talk when the next run by claremont begins.... :cool:

[Michael P]

marvel locked the man into portraying the character a certain way...it was lobell and kubert (uncanny 308 i think) that brought about the proposal
Lobdell and JR Jr., actually.

[Traser]

THATS WHAT IVE BEEN SAYING,DONT BLAME SCOTT,BLAME THE WRITER!!!!!!!


I agree 100% with you. I think it's easier for a writer to show turmoil and rift than it is to show a long term relationship that has some form of growth. It's easy to write about falling in love or out of love than it is to actually be in love.

So fanboys/girls are stuck with the white queen for now. DO I think that Claremont hates Cyke...no. Do I think he might have grown bored of the character absolutely. He was the x-mens very own Dudley do-right for a long time. His women issues came out later. Again each event (i.e maddie, jean, emma) was what a writer thought would be interesting. If we were writing these books who knows what could happen. It's all a matter of who's got there fingers on the keyboard when its time to send in the script.

[heystacy]

its not like xmen is ending any time soon,they got to do something with him.look,morrison wrote scott and jeans relationship horribly,and on purpose i think.he obviously(if u read his interviews) is a big fan of emma,and doesnt like the scott/jean pairing.he was allowed to much freedom,and he ruined scott,gave new layers to emma,and made the phoenix more powerfull,but ultimately recked jeans character.

I hear what you are saying.

In that case though, characters should not marry, unless you are ready for them to "retire." Ususally they go off into the sunset when they marry. Breaking up Scott and Maddie was the first thing needed to make X-Factor work. In that respect, it made Scott into a heel. That, in my opinion, was a HUGE mistake.

Yes, its done now. Scott's a heel. I think there may have been a better way of dealing with the story. At least Scott should have come off as noble and heroic. Damn. Didn't he derserve that as a character?

[punisher_ryu]

traser and heystacy are both right.

[Roquefort Raider]

In that case though, characters should not marry, unless you are ready for them to "retire."

Which is just what Claremont had planned for Scott; in an old issue of Comics Scene he actually stated that he wanted Scott to retire with Maddie because after the shitty life he'd had, he deserved some happiness.

I'm sure that had he known what was in store for Scott, however, Chris would have kept him around in Uncanny X-Men.

Breaking up Scott and Maddie was the first thing needed to make X-Factor work. In that respect, it made Scott into a heel. That, in my opinion, was a HUGE mistake.

That it was indeed and it was very uncharacteristic of the character. Louise Simonson (who wrote X-Factor after the first year) tried to undo the ugliness of Scott's behaviour by stating that he had only been gone a few weeks and by sending him back to Alaska, but by then Maddie and Nathan had been kidnapped and were thought dead. (Cheap plot device to justify the unjustifiable, I know, but still an effort of some kind).


Yes, its done now. Scott's a heel. I think there may have been a better way of dealing with the story. At least Scott should have come off as noble and heroic. Damn. Didn't he derserve that as a character?

Yep, and Chris himself once tried to make him noble again with the few issues of his run on X-Factor (prior to Peter David's run). That's when Scott's love for his son was most manifest, and when he had to give him up to save his life.

Unfortunately, later writers reverted to the "Scott is boring" or "Scott is a dick" concept, and Claremont has to deal with it now.

Not that Jean dry-humping Logan is anything prettier; it's just more acceptable by fanboys because Wolverine is the big man on campus.

[heystacy]

traser and heystacy are both right.


Thanks. :)

[heystacy]

Which is just what Claremont had planned for Scott; in an old issue of Comics Scene he actually stated that he wanted Scott to retire with Maddie because after the shitty life he'd had, he deserved some happiness.

I'm sure that had he known what was in store for Scott, however, Chris would have kept him around in Uncanny X-Men.



That it was indeed and it was very uncharacteristic of the character. Louise Simonson (who wrote X-Factor after the first year) tried to undo the ugliness of Scott's behaviour by stating that he had only been gone a few weeks and by sending him back to Alaska, but by then Maddie and Nathan had been kidnapped and were thought dead. (Cheap plot device to justify the unjustifiable, I know, but still an effort of some kind).



Yep, and Chris himself once tried to make him noble again with the few issues of his run on X-Factor (prior to Peter David's run). That's when Scott's love for his son was most manifest, and when he had to give him up to save his life.

Unfortunately, later writers reverted to the "Scott is boring" or "Scott is a dick" concept, and Claremont has to deal with it now.

Not that Jean dry-humping Logan is anything prettier; it's just more acceptable by fanboys because Wolverine is the big man on campus.


That's really sad. The comment is more on the writers and editors. Even though Simonson did try to make changes, Maddie died in X-Factor in a way that much like Scotts retun to Alaska, felt like a bad plot device. It rings untrue in many ways-something to push Scott and Jean together. Its what makes a reader more jaded. That I think is the source of the anti-Scott sentiment.

Claremont did give Scott some nobility when he worked on X-Factor. Thanks for reminding me.

[xgeek52]

arrrrggghhh!!!!!...give it a rest why don't you...none of us are gonna agree when it comes to scott summers... i've seen posts like this before on this and other forums and they go on and on...

i have been following this character since the days of lee and kirby...he's a geek guys, who takes his respnsibilities seriously...none of the writers -- including claremont has lost sight of that fact...yeah they might have taken different route, but scott summers has been the heir apparent to the dream...his eye has always been on the prize as an xman...what i've been reading here has been how the character has reacted in his personal life recently and in the past...

as a character the man is an adult -- subject to making adult mistakes...if there had been an internet forum during the madelyne/xfactor/jean/nathan story, you guys would have been all over it...find the issues and read them...

i'm ranting and i know it...scott summers has been from the word go the leader and the future of the xmen and the mutant society...he has loved and loves jean grey (don't think he doesn't)and loves emma frost...don't think the man is stupid...he knows what she's about...

i think maybe claremont as a writer sees this...i dunno...as a writer myself, i'm seeing his resepct for the character in the end...

you guys gotta realize that it's not just the writers...marvel decides what is and isn't...

but i gotta tell you i can't see where claremont did wrong by the character... :cool:

[heystacy]

Actually opening up dialogue on the topic has reminded me that Scott isn't all bad. That's a good thing. ;)

[Romus]

Hates Cyclops? The one he has REALLY hated all along is Colossus... developed him the least out of all the core characters.

[Babylon23]

Hates Cyclops? The one he has REALLY hated all along is Colossus... developed him the least out of all the core characters.

You think? I thought Claremont showed a real love for Colossus during his initial run. He began as a naive farmboy, who really began to develop through the Proteus story. Then came his relationship with Kitty, which was going well until the editorial mandate to break the couple up. Still, even the breakup saw Peter develop and mature. All of this culminated nicely in Peter's actions during the Mutant Massacre. We also got to see Peter as an artist.

By the end of Fall of the Mutants, Claremont had transformed Peter into the heart of the team.

Personally, I think Peter was doing fine until Claremont left. Then came the complete annihilation of his family, the poorly written transformation into an Acolyte, and his eventual death.

I don't think it was Claremont that hated Colossus. I think it was all the writers post-Claremont.

[punisher_ryu]

arrrrggghhh!!!!!...give it a rest why don't you...none of us are gonna agree when it comes to scott summers... i've seen posts like this before on this and other forums and they go on and on...

i have been following this character since the days of lee and kirby...he's a geek guys, who takes his respnsibilities seriously...none of the writers -- including claremont has lost sight of that fact...yeah they might have taken different route, but scott summers has been the heir apparent to the dream...his eye has always been on the prize as an xman...what i've been reading here has been how the character has reacted in his personal life recently and in the past...

as a character the man is an adult -- subject to making adult mistakes...if there had been an internet forum during the madelyne/xfactor/jean/nathan story, you guys would have been all over it...find the issues and read them...

i'm ranting and i know it...scott summers has been from the word go the leader and the future of the xmen and the mutant society...he has loved and loves jean grey (don't think he doesn't)and loves emma frost...don't think the man is stupid...he knows what she's about...

i think maybe claremont as a writer sees this...i dunno...as a writer myself, i'm seeing his resepct for the character in the end...

you guys gotta realize that it's not just the writers...marvel decides what is and isn't...

but i gotta tell you i can't see where claremont did wrong by the character... :cool:

right,but i just have to say........

jean is the love of scott's life,his soulmate.emma isnt,though he may love her.

[cyclops2500]

I don't think anyone knows what do to with him anymore. The problem is that his character type, the straight-arrowed, upright, uptight, do-gooder isn't popular with anyone anymore. Even in comics, where you'd think people would hold a soft spot for the noble-beyond-all-bounds heroic type, they've become more cynical.

I loved Morrison's run, but I think the way Scott and Emma came about was silly. The truth of the matter is that Jean could've picked whatever she wanted from Scott's head, known what was bothering him, and what he was doing with Emma, without having to walk in on them.

Now before the outcries of "That's not ethical...," or "Jean would never violate..." let's deconstruct. If you knew you were slowly but surely losing the love of your life, the person you've been with since you were a teenager, the person you literally cheated death and killed for, I don't think you'd hesitate to use drastic actions to prevent it.

The other thing that bothers me, even about Whedon's run, is the way Scott has fallen into the background as a leader. It seems that Emma Frost has gone from former villain and catatonic to leader of the X-men. This hacks me off because her track record sucks. She's never been at the head of anything that worked out well, she's lost at least 2 teams of mutants that I know about, and there's nothing besides her inherent ruthlessness and callous attitude to qualify her to give commands.

I've always been a huge Cyclops fan (see my username), and have wept at how poorly he's been portrayed in recent years. Even his good moments are a shadow of what the character is about. I'm hoping a turnaround is forthcoming, but it seems you are only allowed to have your character developed if knives come out of the back of your hands.

[xgeek52]

i go back to my original assessment...cyclops 2500 may have a point but as i said scott is an adult and he knows what emma is all about...no she is not the love of his life -- jean is...but no one in this universe said you can't love someone else...the love of my life is gone from me but i'm with someone who i love just as much...will i forget the other -- no, and his feelings for emma aren't any less true, just tempered...he is the leader of the xmen, make no mistake...read the end book two and re-read the first six issues of whedon...you'll see... :cool:

[Tommy]

The other thing that bothers me, even about Whedon's run, is the way Scott has fallen into the background as a leader. It seems that Emma Frost has gone from former villain and catatonic to leader of the X-men. This hacks me off because her track record sucks. She's never been at the head of anything that worked out well, she's lost at least 2 teams of mutants that I know about, and there's nothing besides her inherent ruthlessness and callous attitude to qualify her to give commands.
Actually that is one thing I like. It is totally in Emma's character to sense a power vacuum and try to fill it with herself. Scott and Alex are both for whatever reason not being very effective leaders and she calmly steps in and supplants them.

And loosing the Hellions due to a time traveler attacking during the meeting where she was attempting to protect them can't exactly be blamed on her.

[punisher_ryu]

i go back to my original assessment...cyclops 2500 may have a point but as i said scott is an adult and he knows what emma is all about...no she is not the love of his life -- jean is...but no one in this universe said you can't love someone else...the love of my life is gone from me but i'm with someone who i love just as much...will i forget the other -- no, and his feelings for emma aren't any less true, just tempered...he is the leader of the xmen, make no mistake...read the end book two and re-read the first six issues of whedon...you'll see... :cool:

yes,agreed.but if scott knew,when jean comes back,that things would be better this time between them.that they would work this time.i have no doubt in my mind that he would go for her(jean).

[xgeek52]

i hafta agree punisher...he would do that given the right circumstances...but the question is was endsong the right circumstances...he stayed with emma...and what was the continuity between whedon's first effort and endsong... :cool:

[punisher_ryu]

i hafta agree punisher...he would do that given the right circumstances...but the question is was endsong the right circumstances...he stayed with emma...and what was the continuity between whedon's first effort and endsong... :cool:

wasnt that thing with whedon just a false rumor.anyways,in endsong,jean was evil half the time.and scott readilly excepted the responsibilty of "dealing" with her,as did logan...........but no one cares about him.thats a hard question.wasnt endsong controlled by the editors(like morrison should've been).well,maybe scott had doubts about jean sticking around.speculation.

[tunasammiches]

Actually, I think it's neither about hating Scott or not knowing how to write him. I think the writers have Scott all figured out. He's like this big, repressed, professional guy. He's been #1 student since issue one,he's always trying to be the perfect leader and do the Professor proud and he's always carrying the burden of having to be the leader and making the hard calls. He's aways trying to be Mr. Perfect X-Man. I think the writers understand what that does to a person. There's more facets to Scott's character than being the X-Men's leader. Beneath the exterior of an over achiever is a repressed and confined person. They show that he's not perfect, that he can and does make mistakes and that he's kinda messed up. He can't be a perfect leader AND a perfect human too. That'd be kinda boring...and unrealistic...and one-sided. He's often been depicted as rigid, and strict and walking around with a poll in his ass. That's his professional side. But in his personal life, he's kida always been dependant on the women in his life to define him. He's kind of this serial-non-monogomist-relationship guy and he's jumped from one relationship to another. And please, he was dating Jean for like 30 years...when have you ever met a relationshiip that say, started in hgh school, and lasted til the golden years. When people start their relationships young, they don't often last because the people change and need new things in their life. They never got to experiment ane find themselves.

But as for whoever writes Scott, it always seems to be the same thing and the same depiction. I think it's less about hating him as a character than it is about consisancy. And since he's pretty much stayed the same as far as his foibles and habits with women, then I think the writers did a pretty good job at staing tue to the characters.

[blue13]

Actually that is one thing I like. It is totally in Emma's character to sense a power vacuum and try to fill it with herself. Scott and Alex are both for whatever reason not being very effective leaders and she calmly steps in and supplants them.


how is cyclops not being an effective leader?

outside of kitty, no one else even talks back to emma.

he tells her to shut up, and snaps at her in whedon's run.

who decided to bring back costumes? cyclops.

who led when sentinels attacked the school? cyclops.

i like emma, but outside of catty remarks, can you give me one example of her being a leader?

he's leader only by title - "headmistress".

[Tennoarashi]

outside of kitty, no one else even talks back to emma.
Rachel and Ororo? And Havok, that one time?

[xakko]

Rachel and Ororo? And Havok, that one time?
And Colossus threw Emma at Danger too.

"Ah, I see how it works. Normally I would not have done that."

[Gingold]

I never got the impression that Claremont hated Cyclops. I always thought he wrote him pretty well until X-Factor's debut/Jean's return caused all the problems. His little dialog with Storm at the end of 'God Loves, Man Kills' is one of the character's best moments. Heck, he created two Mary Sues (Lee Forester and Maddie) just to get Scott laid.

Sure, he wrote Scott as an uptight asshole who was much more comfortable in the Danger Room than dealing with emotions and relationships. Because... that's who Scott is. The difference between Claremont's Scott and the post-X-Factor Scott was that you still rooted for Claremont's Cyclops, even though he was a bit of prick. That guy in the early X-Factor issues, I want to run over with a truck.

That said, Morrison did more for the character than anyone had since about Uncanny #175 or so. He actually moved him forward and made you root for him again, which had seemed impossible since he ran out on Maddie and Nathan. The relationship with Emma works for him. She's certainly a heck of lot more interesting than Jean, who was never a favorite of mine, if for no other reason than she had the gall to come back from the dead. (If Jean comes back again, she can hook up with Magneto- turnabout is fair play after all).

[Alan2099]

What I find intresting about Scott is that he puts forth the image of being such a steady reliable great guy, and when it comes to his personal life, he's about as flawed as you can get.

[punisher_ryu]

I never got the impression that Claremont hated Cyclops. I always thought he wrote him pretty well until X-Factor's debut/Jean's return caused all the problems. His little dialog with Storm at the end of 'God Loves, Man Kills' is one of the character's best moments. Heck, he created two Mary Sues (Lee Forester and Maddie) just to get Scott laid.

Sure, he wrote Scott as an uptight asshole who was much more comfortable in the Danger Room than dealing with emotions and relationships. Because... that's who Scott is. The difference between Claremont's Scott and the post-X-Factor Scott was that you still rooted for Claremont's Cyclops, even though he was a bit of prick. That guy in the early X-Factor issues, I want to run over with a truck.

That said, Morrison did more for the character than anyone had since about Uncanny #175 or so. He actually moved him forward and made you root for him again, which had seemed impossible since he ran out on Maddie and Nathan. The relationship with Emma works for him. She's certainly a heck of lot more interesting than Jean, who was never a favorite of mine, if for no other reason than she had the gall to come back from the dead. (If Jean comes back again, she can hook up with Magneto- turnabout is fair play after all).

funny,b/c very few ppl are rooting for scott.most ppl are rooting against him.
way to go morrison.thanks for giving us even more reason to hate scott(not that i do).like i said before,morrisons run was well written fanfiction that didnt belong in comics.he was allowed to much freedom,and now we have this mess.any writer that has bias towards a character,does not deserve to write that character.great job marvel.

[Anodyne]

And please, he was dating Jean for like 30 years...when have you ever met a relationshiip that say, started in hgh school, and lasted til the golden years.
It happens. My aunt and uncle met when she was 3 and he was 6 or 7. They've been married 65 years.

[xgeek52]

oookaaay...i see this turning into another round robin just like the threads dealing with jean and emma and their relationship with scott...so maybe it's up to me to start closing it out... :rolleyes:

to clarify...i did not like the morrison run...what i respected however is that he did advance the character past the twelve and the search for cyclops... did he do right by him...i don't think so...marvel wanted a different scott summers one with a harder edge so to speak...i wouldn't have dreamed he would have put him with emma but he did -- or kill jean AGAIN...maybe it was to lay the groundwork for endsong and the end...because in the final analysis claremont's the end is a tribute (probably too strong a word) to who and what scott is as a person and a leader...he took the reigns...not xavier or anyone else...

i have lived with this character since the beginning...i do not presume to know what's in the writer's mind when it comes to him but he has always been one of my favorites...as a writer myself i would have given scott and jean the problems but kept them together...that said -- scott and emma is (reluctantly) -- a more realistic relationship... will he jump ship if jean came back (as a friend put it 'for real and not for play') probably... after all she is the love of his life...

let's face it though...alot of us (including me) don't really read the words s lot of the times...dialogue defines a character...wheadon writing didn't diminish the character and claremont's writing only to make them stronger...

i suspect that all of us are going into 2006 debating this to hell and gone...claremont's final installment of the end is coming and so is wheadon's second year...i'm never gonna stop loving scott summers as a character...i've been sayin' this since forums like this have been created... a lot of who he is reminds me of me and every other person, man and woman, who had to live his life the best way they know how given his circumstances... :cool:

[sidebar: i'm really sick and tired of marvel tinkering with something that we as consumers and fans think that works...i look at how things work from a writer's perspective...but i guess that doesn't matter to them...] :cool:

[Gingold]

funny,b/c very few ppl are rooting for scott.most ppl are rooting against him.
way to go morrison.thanks for giving us even more reason to hate scott(not that i do).like i said before,morrisons run was well written fanfiction that didnt belong in comics.he was allowed to much freedom,and now we have this mess.any writer that has bias towards a character,does not deserve to write that character.great job marvel.


The only reason that there's a 'mess' left over from Morrison's run is that fans couldn't stand the fact that stuff actually progressed and changed. Which is ironic, because change used to be the hallmark of the X-Men back in the Claremont glory days.

I understand if you didn't enjoy his work, but the idea that it was hampered because he was given 'too much freedom'? If comics are simply meant to maintain the trade mark to sell underoos and action figures, I guess so. I'd like to think there's something more to it than that.

[Alan2099]

It wasn't that stuff changed, it was that stuff changed too qucikly and without any real relation to what had come before.

[punisher_ryu]

It happens. My aunt and uncle met when she was 3 and he was 6 or 7. They've been married 65 years.

DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM!!!!!!!!!!!

[punisher_ryu]

The only reason that there's a 'mess' left over from Morrison's run is that fans couldn't stand the fact that stuff actually progressed and changed. Which is ironic, because change used to be the hallmark of the X-Men back in the Claremont glory days.

I understand if you didn't enjoy his work, but the idea that it was hampered because he was given 'too much freedom'? If comics are simply meant to maintain the trade mark to sell underoos and action figures, I guess so. I'd like to think there's something more to it than that.

there's a difference between good change and bad change.morrison did a lot of both.

[punisher_ryu]

bump..........

[BizarroBeachHead]

It wasn't that stuff changed, it was that stuff changed too qucikly and without any real relation to what had come before.
Just like how the "All new, All different" X-men were gradually introduced into the series so that readers could ease into them. :)

I would agree with you that in many cases change is best accepted when it's slowly introduced, but sometimes you just got to swing things differently to make them work again.

The only reason that there's a 'mess' left over from Morrison's run is that fans couldn't stand the fact that stuff actually progressed and changed. Which is ironic, because change used to be the hallmark of the X-Men back in the Claremont glory days.

I understand if you didn't enjoy his work, but the idea that it was hampered because he was given 'too much freedom'? If comics are simply meant to maintain the trade mark to sell underoos and action figures, I guess so. I'd like to think there's something more to it than that.This saddens me as well. :(

[Christopher O]

Just like how the "All new, All different" X-men were gradually introduced into the series so that readers could ease into them. :)

I would agree with you that in many cases change is best accepted when it's slowly introduced, but sometimes you just got to swing things differently to make them work again.

Agreed. I much prefer Morrison's groundbreaking revitilization of the concept over the decade of stagnation that came before.

[punisher_ryu]

Agreed. I much prefer Morrison's groundbreaking revitilization of the concept over the decade of stagnation that came before.

i prefer something in the middle, but ya, even morrison's run was better than all the stagnation.

[Alan2099]

Just like how the "All new, All different" X-men were gradually introduced into the series so that readers could ease into them. :)

I would agree with you that in many cases change is best accepted when it's slowly introduced, but sometimes you just got to swing things differently to make them work again.
This saddens me as well. :(
Not the same thing. The All New All Different team was essentailly the relaunch of a completley dead book.

[BizarroBeachHead]

Not the same thing. The All New All Different team was essentailly the relaunch of a completley dead book.
The X-Men WERE completely dead before Morisson came on the books. They may as well have been priting reprints of Claremonts old run, it would have been the same people buying the book. The books needed a shot in the arm, just like they did when Claremont first came on. It WAS the same thing.

[punisher_ryu]

The X-Men WERE completely dead before Morisson came on the books. They may as well have been priting reprints of Claremonts old run, it would have been the same people buying the book. The books needed a shot in the arm, just like they did when Claremont first came on. It WAS the same thing.

it could have done without morrison.

[spoon_jenkins]

Actually Claremont wrote Cyclops as IMMENSELY likeable - basically the normal, somewhat repressed guy in an otherwise exotic team - up until issue 200 or so. Best example for that: Uncanny #175: he had Cyke be capable of defeating the whole team AND MAstermind for the woman he loved.
But it is also very obvious that Claremont started to totally dislike the character when other writers had cyclops become the heel who left Madelyne and Nathan.
This is the analysis I agree with. CC has treated Cyclops from Uncanny 201 very differently than he treated him in 200 and before. The early Cyclops is repressed, etc. but he's a likeable character. He was caring towards his teammates, charismatic in his own way, a greater leader, etc. His flaws didn't make him a bad guy. Other characters were flawed as well; it made them human and interesting. And his repression also had a flip side that made him a great, determined leader.

The 201 and beyond CC Cyclops isn't consistent with the previous one. His good qualities are minimized, his flaws are magnified, and new flaws are added.

I wish people would stop generalizing Cyke's behavior. Yes, he went to see Jean. Was he leaving Maddie for Jean? Not at this point. Not really, anyway. He didn't just pick up with Jean, and he did return to try to find Maddy. The term, I believe, is shock. And possible programming by Sinister.
I agree that it's not as bad as some folks characterize it. It's not like Scott just dumped his wife to start dating his ex-girlfriend. Scott's ex-fiance (remember #136 after Prof. X overcomes Phoenix), who he is only not with because he believed her to be dead, is reportedly now alive. At first, he left just to see for himself rather than totally ignore his returned-from-the-dead ex-fiance.

It's a shame that CC seemingly treated a character who had been around for 23 years before X-Factor as a lost cause just because he didn't like what Layton and TPTB did with him.

CC did a similar thing on a smaller scale. Jim Shooter had Colossus cheat on Kitty with Zsaji in Secret Wars, so CC gave Peter a ritual punishment in #183.

[spoon_jenkins]

scott's wandering after ororo beat him for the leadership and his encounter with lee forrester and meeting madelyne was not claremont...
Scott's "wandering" wasn't after the battle for leadership; it was after the funeral for Jean Grey after the Dark Phoenix Saga. Meeting Lee Forrester and Madelyne were both written by Claremont. He wrote Uncanny all the way into 1991.

[xakko]

It's a shame that CC seemingly treated a character who had been around for 23 years before X-Factor as a lost cause just because he didn't like what Layton and TPTB did with him.

CC did a similar thing on a smaller scale. Jim Shooter had Colossus cheat on Kitty with Zsaji in Secret Wars, so CC gave Peter a ritual punishment in #183.Actually- I love #183. There SHOULD be consequences for the characters actions. It also allowed CC to establish that it was editorial that mandated the breakup by hinting that there was more than them just "growing apart".

I don't think Claremont hates Cyke. He still gives him some solid scenes in The End. And the scene in X-Men 160, with his hearty laugh at the clown nose Beast puts on him shows a human side to him.

[punisher_ryu]

Actually- I love #183. There SHOULD be consequences for the characters actions. It also allowed CC to establish that it was editorial that mandated the breakup by hinting that there was more than them just "growing apart".

I don't think Claremont hates Cyke. He still gives him some solid scenes in The End. And the scene in X-Men 160, with his hearty laugh at the clown nose Beast puts on him shows a human side to him.

ya, but i'm pretty sure claremont is anti-scott/jean these days, eventhough he himself established them as soulmates.

[spoon_jenkins]

If I could thread drift a little . . .
Actually- I love #183. There SHOULD be consequences for the characters actions. It also allowed CC to establish that it was editorial that mandated the breakup by hinting that there was more than them just "growing apart".
I don't think editorial should have broken up Kitty and Peter. They're one of my favorite X-couples. But I think some of #183 doesn't quite "fit." I feel CC has Wolvie as a mouthpiece saying that getting pounded on by the Juggernaut is what Peter deserves for breaking up with Kitty. To me, that's not right. I do like how he dealt with Kitty in that ish. And I like his handling of Illyana; her brother broke Kitty's heart, but Yana's got to comfort her best friend.

[Amokitty]

I don't think editorial should have broken up Kitty and Peter. They're one of my favorite X-couples. But I think some of #183 doesn't quite "fit." I feel CC has Wolvie as a mouthpiece saying that getting pounded on by the Juggernaut is what Peter deserves for breaking up with Kitty. To me, that's not right.

I don't think that Kitty and Peter should've broke up either, however I loved the fact that Peter got an ass whoopin' by Cain, AND a stern lecture from Logan. He absolutely deserved it. Marvel used to pride itself on characters having to come to terms with their own screw-ups one way or another. Phoenix being the most famous example of this. She actually had to die. The stance that Marvel took, was to add realism and a little morality to comics.

I never could figure out why there were no real consequences for Cyclops abandoning Madelyne, and just recently, his betrayal of Jean. Not even a wrist slap. Editorial has obviously changed things.

If for any reason CC hates the Scott/Jean relationship, I would guess it's the same reason why I suspect he also dislikes the Kitty/Peter 'ship (despite the fact it was HE that made them all as popular as they were). Endless retcons, editorial interference, and some occasional storylines from previous writers that made little sense. He probably had enough.

[cyclops2500]

And please, he was dating Jean for like 30 years...when have you ever met a relationshiip that say, started in hgh school, and lasted til the golden years.


My wife and I started dating when I was 18 and she was 16. I'll be 30 in March. :)

[punisher_ryu]

in comic years, i dont think scott/jean have been together any more than 15 years(if you include future raising cable).

[xgeek52]

i stand corrected spoon...i went back and checked and you were right...

i also went to some friends and check the morrison run i didn't read...still didn't like it but i must admit it gave the xbooks and scott the shot in the arm they needed...

but again scott summers will always be the leader of the xmen -- the heir...i repeat claremont is the definitive xmen writer, probably because he understands the characters the best AND because he will try to work with what other writers did or do (and the editor's pronouncements)whether he like to or not...does he have a favorite character, sure...does he focus on strong women, no question...but let's face it EVERY woman who is an xman is a strong woman...they have to be...

and if you think about it, scott has always been equal to the task... :cool: