Is it possible that INFINITE CRISIS *isn't* ending at # 7?

[Buried Alien]

One of the main themes underlying INFINITE CRISIS is that the DC Universe of recent years has been too dark, and that changes must be made after INFINITE CRISIS to balance that darkness with a lighter, more fun tone than has dominated DC's comics in recent years.

A look at some early solicitations for 52 (ONE YEAR LATER), however, suggests that at best, DC will continue to be as dark as it has been for the several years leading up to INFINITE CRISIS and at worst, become even darker.

That makes me wonder: maybe INFINITE CRISIS # 7 won't be the final issue of the series? Only the end of the first phase of the story?

What if DC's master plan is this: send things going even MORE awry with the first seven issues of INFINITE CRISIS, tell how much worse things have gotten through the various books of 52/OYL. Then, a year later, continue INFINITE CRISIS with # 8...taking it to the original 12-issue span of CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS?

Seven is a darn odd (no pun intended) number to end a miniseries that's supposed to be the sequel to the 12-part COIE. It would seem that both stories need to be 12 issues (COIE # 7 was a first climax of sorts for that series, as it featured the death of Supergirl, but as we all know, the story did not end there). Perhaps the plan is 7 issues of INFINITE CRISIS in late 2005/early 2006, a year of 52/OYL, then the final 5 issues of INFINITE CRISIS in 2007...and at that point and that point only, light finally returns to the DCU.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Lex]

That would be a long-ass wait for some good, non-dark storytelling.

[Buried Alien]

That would be a long-ass wait for some good, non-dark storytelling.

We've waited twenty years. What's one more?


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Apathy Boy]

Seven is a darn odd (no pun intended) number to end a miniseries that's supposed to be the sequel to the 12-part COIE. It would seem that both stories need to be 12 issues (COIE # 7 was a first climax of sorts for that series, as it featured the death of Supergirl, but as we all know, the story did not end there).Seven is an odd number, but in terms of page count INFINITE CRISIS will be the same as COIE.

INFINITE CRISIS = 7 double-sized issues
COIE = 10 22-page comics + 2 double-sized issues = 7 double-sized issues

And INFINITE CRISIS is almost certainly not the end of the meta-story. Something's got to happen after OYL to bring the major changes back to the status quo. It won't happen in INFINITE CRISIS, though; I can't see DC resisting a shiny new "#1" on the cover of its latest event.

I think they're running out of ways to combine "infinite" and "crisis" in a title, though.

[Paul Newell]

Where did you see the the solicitations for 52, BA?

As to the twelve issue thing, technically there are already 12 issues. 7 issues of the mini, 4 tie in specials and a Secret Files story.

[Buried Alien]

Where did you see the the solicitations for 52, BA?



Aren't these (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=97241) "52" solicitations?


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Paul Newell]

Aren't these (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=97241) "52" solicitations?


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
Nope. 52 is entirely separate. It'll fill in the one year gap between Infiite Crisis #6 and those titles.

[Sharcque]

Aren't these (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=97241) "52" solicitations?


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
Nope. They ARE "One Year Later" solicitations, but "52" is a 52-week series unto itslef that will begin in either April or May, I forget which, and go for a year.

[Paul Newell]

A look at some early solicitations for 52 (ONE YEAR LATER), however, suggests that at best, DC will continue to be as dark as it has been for the several years leading up to INFINITE CRISIS and at worst, become even darker.

Y'know, I just realised about this part. Where did you get a sense of that? If anything I got a sense, (From what little information there was anyway), that the titles were more fulfilling the idea mentioned that there would be a mix of light and dark stuff. I mean, where do you get the idea of "darkness" from Supergirl & Power Girl appearing as Nightwing and Flamebird in the Bottle City of Kandor? :confused:

[Buried Alien]

Y'know, I just realised about this part. Where did you get a sense of that? If anything I got a sense, (From what little information there was anyway), that the titles were more fulfilling the idea mentioned that there would be a mix of light and dark stuff. I mean, where do you get the idea of "darkness" from Supergirl & Power Girl appearing as Nightwing and Flamebird in the Bottle City of Kandor? :confused:

There's word of bad things happening to Dick Grayson...everything from his being killed to killing Jason Todd anew (and having a permanent falling out with Bruce Wayne as the result). Apparently, Robin is going to be in trouble of some kind too (framed as killer)? We still don't know what's goin to happen to Flash (Wally West), Batman's set to go nearly lethal on the Joker again.

It's all rumor and hearsay right now, but it doesn't point anywhere lighter than we've been in recent years.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Ian J.N.]

Something's got to happen after OYL to bring the major changes back to the status quo.
It is my understanding that OYL is the new status quo. The purpose of Infinite Crisis (like COIE) is to bridge into these revamps. 52*, then, provides an overview of the DCU, laying out the history, and how the revamped universe fits together.

So no, I don't think there's going to be Infinite Crisis Part B. With OYL, its goal is accomplished. Plus, they're putting a lot of new balls into play: new directions, new characters, new titles, etc. DC is probably going to want to assess these changes before launching into another universe-wide event.

Knowing Johns' M.O., however, there's probably going to be a few plotlines from IC that continue. For Batman and Superman, I think, the changes have just begun. No permanent writer, four month story arc being told in two books—it's leading somewhere.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

It is my understanding that OYL is the new status quo. The purpose of Infinite Crisis (like COIE) is to bridge into these revamps. 52*, then, provides an overview of the DCU, laying out the history, and how the revamped universe fits together.

So no, I don't think there's going to be Infinite Crisis Part B. With OYL, its goal is accomplished. Plus, they're putting a lot of new balls into play: new directions, new characters, new titles, etc. DC is probably going to want to assess these changes before launching into another universe-wide event.

Knowing Johns' M.O., however, there's probably going to be a few plotlines from IC that continue. For Batman and Superman, I think, the changes have just begun. No permanent writer, four month story arc being told in two books—it's leading somewhere.

Interesting.

I'm looking forward to the changes Johns and Busiek are going to introduce in the Superman books. Their arc looks very promising.

And I agree with your opinion. I think it wouldn't make sense to stop an universe-changing event right in the middle of it, to then continue with it a year later, when the hype has gone.

[Paul Newell]

There's word of bad things happening to Dick Grayson...everything from his being killed to killing Jason Todd anew (and having a permanent falling out with Bruce Wayne as the result). Apparently, Robin is going to be in trouble of some kind too (framed as killer)? We still don't know what's goin to happen to Flash (Wally West), Batman's set to go nearly lethal on the Joker again.

It's all rumor and hearsay right now, but it doesn't point anywhere lighter than we've been in recent years.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
I notice most of the stuff you listed happens in the Bat-titles....I have a feeling we'll never see any lightening up in those. :)

[jwd]

There's word of bad things happening to Dick Grayson...everything from his being killed to killing Jason Todd anew (and having a permanent falling out with Bruce Wayne as the result). Apparently, Robin is going to be in trouble of some kind too (framed as killer)? We still don't know what's goin to happen to Flash (Wally West), Batman's set to go nearly lethal on the Joker again.

It's all rumor and hearsay right now, but it doesn't point anywhere lighter than we've been in recent years.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Fan speculation mainly. Maybe people have gotten use to things being dark and assume the worst in certain cases like Dick killing Jason or vice versa. Heroes have been in trouble before in books but that generally doesn't last too long. Its also not very fun if there's not any tension at all in the heroes lives. :)

Batman going nearly lethal on the Joker? That seems to happen every other time they fight.

"This is it Joker! I'm going to kill you! Arrgh no I can't! You are way to popular a villain therefore I must have you incarcerated at Arkham so you can escape out the revolving doors way sooner than you should and come back for yet another big battle where we can do this again!"

[Sean Walsh]

Knowing Johns' M.O., however, there's probably going to be a few plotlines from IC that continue. For Batman and Superman, I think, the changes have just begun. No permanent writer, four month story arc being told in two books—it's leading somewhere.

....into 2 big events for the Batbooks and Superbooks later in the spring, to be precise.

[Sean Walsh]

I'm actually surprised that OYL is actually starting before INFINITE CRISIS ends.

Plus for all we know, these OYL changes might lead somewhere brighter/better for the characters by April or so...

[protege]

Interesting.

I'm looking forward to the changes Johns and Busiek are going to introduce in the Superman books. Their arc looks very promising.

And I agree with your opinion. I think it wouldn't make sense to stop an universe-changing event right in the middle of it, to then continue with it a year later, when the hype has gone.
I'd like to know what they are, myself...

[stealthwise]

....into 2 big events for the Batbooks and Superbooks later in the spring, to be precise.

Really? What's that all about?

I was pretty interested in reading Johns/Busiek's work on Superman, but I don't want to get it if it'll just bridge the titles towards another huge "event."

[Rollo_Tomasi]

wait, when do secret six and shadowpact come out?

[Sean Walsh]

Really? What's that all about?

Dunno. That's all Didio said when he announced the Johns/Busiek and Robinson/Kramer arcs a few weeks ago.

[Ian J.N.]

There's word of bad things happening to Dick Grayson...everything from his being killed to killing Jason Todd anew (and having a permanent falling out with Bruce Wayne as the result). Apparently, Robin is going to be in trouble of some kind too (framed as killer)? We still don't know what's goin to happen to Flash (Wally West), Batman's set to go nearly lethal on the Joker again.
Judging from the solicitations, yeah, things look grim for Nightwing and Robin, but it's hard to determine story tone beforehand.

Conjecture: Bruce is on an Earth-2 cloud 9. He's married to Selina, with a baby on the way. He's police commissioner, and the crime rate in Gotham is down. Everything is peaches and dandy, except for the supporting characters, who are being put through the ringer.

Bottom line is we don't know what's going to happen.

[Guts/Batman]

I notice most of the stuff you listed happens in the Bat-titles....I have a feeling we'll never see any lightening up in those. :)

Yea.

What I've always said is that Bat-verse is not a good example of darkness in DCU. It's the Superman books.

If the Superman books are dark, then we have darkness in DCU.

[Guts/Batman]

Really? What's that all about?

I was pretty interested in reading Johns/Busiek's work on Superman, but I don't want to get it if it'll just bridge the titles towards another huge "event."

Agreed.

The Superman books are going through a crossover of their own. Not sure if they will be crossing over with Batman though.

God I hate the "wait and see" attitude...but I'm forced to emply it.

[Guts/Batman]

Dunno. That's all Didio said when he announced the Johns/Busiek and Robinson/Kramer arcs a few weeks ago.

Didio should keep his mouth shut...

[Babylon23]

I don't think IC will continue. I'm sure by issue 7, we'll have a fully self-contained story with a definite beginning-middle-end.

I'm positive, however, that we'll see some fallout from IC. Company-wide crossovers always lead to fallout issues once the story is over.

It seems that OYL will set the new status quo, and 52 will show us how that status quo came about.

[Sk8maven]

I don't think IC will continue. I'm sure by issue 7, we'll have a fully self-contained story with a definite beginning-middle-end.Middle certainly, end hopefully - beginning? For an "event" that allegedly started happening back around "Graduation Day"?

Maven

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I'd like to know what they are, myself...

Me too. That whole thing about changing the status quo is driving me nuts.

BTW, according to the Superman solicitation, it looks as if Superman retired...

Hmmmm...

And to think I'll have to wait four months or so...

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Yea.

What I've always said is that Bat-verse is not a good example of darkness in DCU. It's the Superman books.

If the Superman books are dark, then we have darkness in DCU.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Batman's books, per se, are something naturally dark. It's just who the character is, what the city itself is, and what the things he deals with are about.

Therefore, we can't say the DCU is dark because the Bat-books are dark.

[Guts/Batman]

Middle certainly, end hopefully - beginning? For an "event" that allegedly started happening back around "Graduation Day"?

Maven

If you really look back at the "trigger", you could probably put Hush, For Tomorrow and a bunch of other stories as the beginnings of IC.

IC connects just about every major storyline over the last 3 years retroactively.

[Babylon23]

Middle certainly, end hopefully - beginning? For an "event" that allegedly started happening back around "Graduation Day"?

Maven

True, but Infinite Crisis still has a definite beginning in #1, and I'm sure we'll see a definite end in issue 7. Certainly, there are stories leading into and out of this one, but that's a standard of comic book storytelling.

[titanfan]

That makes me wonder: maybe INFINITE CRISIS # 7 won't be the final issue of the series? Only the end of the first phase of the story?

I certainly won't be shocked. And even if they were planning on ending it at #7, they might change thier minds. Why end the money machine when fans keep gobbling it up?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

True, but Infinite Crisis still has a definite beginning in #1, and I'm sure we'll see a definite end in issue 7. Certainly, there are stories leading into and out of this one, but that's a standard of comic book storytelling.

I'd say that this is a moot point. I could say, for example, that IC started in the last issues of the Countdown spin-offs. Or that it started in Countdown itself.

All of them seem like beginnings of the whole thing.

[Guts/Batman]

I'd say that this is a moot point. I could say, for example, that IC started in the last issues of the Countdown spin-offs. Or that it started in Countdown itself.

All of them seem like beginnings of the whole thing.

Countdown was the "official" beginning of the road to Infinite Crisis. However, the Infinite Crisis mini itself and the Countdown minis retroactively brought all the past major pre-IC storylines over the last 3 years (Identity Crisis, Hush, Graduation Day, War Games, For Tomorrow) into it if they were planned to be the "beginnings" of Infinite Crisis or not.

Essentially, they were retroactively fit into the timeline. So while they weren't IC related when they came out...they are now.

[Babylon23]

Countdown was the "official" beginning of the road to Infinite Crisis. However, the Infinite Crisis mini itself and the Countdown minis retroactively brought all the past major pre-IC storylines over the last 3 years (Identity Crisis, Hush, Graduation Day, War Games, For Tomorrow) into it if they were planned to be the "beginnings" of Infinite Crisis or not.

Essentially, they were retroactively fit into the timeline. So while they weren't IC related when they came out...they are now.

True, but you can read those stories without reading IC, and you can read IC without having read any of those stories.

[Guts/Batman]

True, but you can read those stories without reading IC, and you can read IC without having read any of those stories.

Yep.

It's what the writers (Johns said so, I believe) wanted. They didn't have to tie them in but it's nice to see the editors going the extra effort to make sense to those of whom who have been reading for all this time.

Now some of it I wish it could have been done...less confusing (so far) but I cannot fault DC for their effort.

[glennsim]

Yep.

It's what the writers (Johns said so, I believe) wanted. They didn't have to tie them in but it's nice to see the editors going the extra effort to make sense to those of whom who have been reading for all this time.

Now some of it I wish it could have been done...less confusing (so far) but I cannot fault DC for their effort.

You bring up an interesting concept - as illogical as it may sound, I think I prefer cross-book continuity done with some errors more than each book living in it's own little world and having perfect continuity within that.

I think there may be something wrong with me.

[CaptMagellan]

True, but Infinite Crisis still has a definite beginning in #1, and I'm sure we'll see a definite end in issue 7. Certainly, there are stories leading into and out of this one, but that's a standard of comic book storytelling.
I guess it depends on what you consider a beginning. To me IC#1 opened 'In Media Res' with events that began back in Countdown and were fleshed out in the various mini series. ALL of the conflicts that informed the current external crisis in #1 began and were developed somewhere else.

When comparing this to Crisis on Infinite Earths (or even any of the other big yearly crossovers since) Infinite Crisis didn't have a 'beginning' within itself.

[CaptMagellan]

True, but you can read those stories without reading IC, and you can read IC without having read any of those stories.

I gave IC#1 to my 17 year old son and had to explain what was going on (OMACS, Rann-Thanagar, etc.) when I got to the Earth-2 Superman he just shook his head and said it wasn't for him.

My point being that (I think) most of the people saying "You can read one without having to read the others" are people that have read most of them and have years of DC continuity under their belts.

Just looking at the structure of IC#1 and #2, John's explains the first Crisis pretty well but he doesn't recap much of what went on with Countdown, Sacrifice, or the Minis (the external plot elements of Infinite Crisis). It's expected that people have already read them.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Countdown was the "official" beginning of the road to Infinite Crisis. However, the Infinite Crisis mini itself and the Countdown minis retroactively brought all the past major pre-IC storylines over the last 3 years (Identity Crisis, Hush, Graduation Day, War Games, For Tomorrow) into it if they were planned to be the "beginnings" of Infinite Crisis or not.

Essentially, they were retroactively fit into the timeline. So while they weren't IC related when they came out...they are now.

That's is correct. Except for the fact that those had been hints the guys from DC had been dropping to tease us. They were tied to IC from the beginning. The thing is that we didn't know that "a crisis was coming" until last year/ beginnings of this year.

[Guts/Batman]

Just looking at the structure of IC#1 and #2, John's explains the first Crisis pretty well but he doesn't recap much of what went on with Countdown, Sacrifice, or the Minis (the external plot elements of Infinite Crisis). It's expected that people have already read them.

I totally agree.

We get splash pages of all the minis but that isn't enough for a person just starting to buy DC with Infinite Crisis.

It almost comes down to a choice: explain the original Crisis or explain IC (which has been explained through minis for the last 6 monthes). Clearly, Johns chose to explain the original Crisis.

Explaining the events of IC would be...redundant.

IC #1 was ok but #2 was too much extrapolition for me.

[JBeckett]

There's no way it's going to go any further than # 7. If it does, I'll eat Cooper Pippin's shoe.

[Babylon23]

I gave IC#1 to my 17 year old son and had to explain what was going on (OMACS, Rann-Thanagar, etc.) when I got to the Earth-2 Superman he just shook his head and said it wasn't for him.

My point being that (I think) most of the people saying "You can read one without having to read the others" are people that have read most of them and have years of DC continuity under their belts.

Just looking at the structure of IC#1 and #2, John's explains the first Crisis pretty well but he doesn't recap much of what went on with Countdown, Sacrifice, or the Minis (the external plot elements of Infinite Crisis). It's expected that people have already read them.

Fair enough. I see where you're coming from.

My experience was a little different. I leant my issues to a couple of friends, one who hasn't read any DC books for 10 year or more (a real Marvel zombie), and one who hasn't really read many comics at all (the extent of her DC reading was Green Arrow: the Longbow Hunters). They both understood the issues with almost no explanation from me.

[CaptMagellan]

Fair enough. I see where you're coming from.

My experience was a little different. I leant my issues to a couple of friends, one who hasn't read any DC books for 10 year or more (a real Marvel zombie), and one who hasn't really read many comics at all (the extent of her DC reading was Green Arrow: the Longbow Hunters). They both understood the issues with almost no explanation from me.

I don't think they're incomprehensible by any means, just that Infinite Crisis (and the minis for that matter) aren't as self-contained as the Didio marketing statements purported.

And while I DO think Inf Crisis is going to be exactly the amount of issues solicited I also think that, in the same way that the beginning of the story happened before that series, the final ending will be down the road as well.

In other words, I think of Infinite Crisis not so much as a story with a beginning, middle, and end, but instead a chapter in a larger story that began a few years ago and may not end until after "52."

I'd love to be wrong on this count and have the whole thing done and wrapped up at the end of Inf Crisis #7. The way that Crisis on Infinite Earths was wrapped up (i.e., everything, effected by the Crisis, that came after the mini was a 'new beginning' - not a continuation of the plot elements of the series).

[Guts/Batman]

I don't think they're incomprehensible by any means, just that Infinite Crisis (and the minis for that matter) aren't as self-contained as the Didio marketing statements purported.

Exactly.

How much ya wanna bet the IC Specials will be necessary to the understanding of the Infinite Crisis mini?

[Paul Newell]

Exactly.

How much ya wanna bet the IC Specials will be necessary to the understanding of the Infinite Crisis mini?
I don't think they'll have much to do with it at all. My thinking is that they'll play off elements of IC to help bridge their own stories between what's happening in IC and the upcoming series for Checkmate and the Shadowpact, or future idea's, for the Secret Six and whatever may spin out of the Rann-Thanagar War.

I don't think they will affect the outcome of IC at all. For example, the OMAC Special looks like it has more to do with Sasha Bordeaux and Checkmate, rather than Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. The former will have little bearing on IC, the latter will.

They'll be side stories focussing on the characters who have very little to do with IC.

[Babylon23]

And while I DO think Inf Crisis is going to be exactly the amount of issues solicited I also think that, in the same way that the beginning of the story happened before that series, the final ending will be down the road as well.

In other words, I think of Infinite Crisis not so much as a story with a beginning, middle, and end, but instead a chapter in a larger story that began a few years ago and may not end until after "52."

To an extent, I agree with you. I believe that IC will be a definite self-contained 7-issue series. However, the ramifications of the story will carry on into 52 and beyond.

I'd say it'll be comparable to movie sequels. IC will be self-contained, and can be read by itself. 52 wil be a sequel, picking up on a lot of the elements of IC, but telling it's own story.

[Choppa]

Hey I know this topic is kinda dead now, but I think I just realized why IC is 7 issues long.

Zero Hour was 5 issues long right? And COIE was 12 right?

So I looked back at one of my old math books and found that 5+7=12!!

Coincidence? It was said that Zero Hour will play a big role in IC. Perhaps IC is here to finish what was started?

[ConnersConsicence]

Hey I know this topic is kinda dead now, but I think I just realized why IC is 7 issues long.

Zero Hour was 5 issues long right? And COIE was 12 right?

So I looked back at one of my old math books and found that 5+7=12!!

Coincidence? It was said that Zero Hour will play a big role in IC. Perhaps IC is here to finish what was started?
goodness I hope so :) that one kind of fell flat to me but i really think IC is about to repour the foundation of the DCU....i just hate having to be patient waiting on it to happen lol

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Coincidence? It was said that Zero Hour will play a big role in IC. Perhaps IC is here to finish what was started?

Where did you read this?

[Azrael52]

So I looked back at one of my old math books and found that 5+7=12!!

Where did you read this?

[Choppa]

Where did you read this?

Patrickg siad that Geoff Jons said it in the thread aobut one of the upcoming covers.

[Choppa]

Where did you read this?

It's true! I asked a "professor" and he confirmed it.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Patrickg siad that Geoff Jons said it in the thread aobut one of the upcoming covers.

Is there a link to said thread? The other day I was looking for the supposed Geoff Johns Forum (it's not in CBR, though), but I didn't find it...