Didn't Jason Todd swing through Heaven in Smith's Green Arrow? [Archive]

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west3man

12-12-2005, 05:44 PM

So, yeah. Didn't their visit to Heaven show a "Robin" swinging somewhere? Anyone else remember that?

Buried Alien

12-12-2005, 05:55 PM

Yep. We also met a Barry Allen who was barely acquainted with the Speed Force. The Smithverse does have its discrepancies with the rest of the DC Universe.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

west3man

12-12-2005, 06:25 PM

Yep. We also met a Barry Allen who was barely acquainted with the Speed Force. The Smithverse does have its discrepancies with the rest of the DC Universe.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
I was thinking he left room for both after-life concepts to co-exist, but you're right. Barry said something about Wally having something he called "The Speed Force." Hmmm...

I think I rationalized that by saying that Barry could KNOW about the Speed Force, but not be familiar with that name. Nah.

*sniffle* Such potential, apparently wasted. *sobs*

Captain Jim

12-12-2005, 08:41 PM

Yep. We also met a Barry Allen who was barely acquainted with the Speed Force. The Smithverse does have its discrepancies with the rest of the DC Universe.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I don't think Jason's presence in heaven is necessarily a discrepancy. I'm among those who think that the Red Hood is actually the Jason of another earth.

Choppa

12-12-2005, 09:24 PM

I don't think Jason's presence in heaven is necessarily a discrepancy. I'm among those who think that the Red Hood is actually the Jason of another earth.

I don't understand how that's possible if only E1 and E2 existed at the end of COIE.

Also, Smith's own movies don't even follow their own continuity, so forget his comics.

The Mirrorball Man

12-12-2005, 09:26 PM

The Robin you saw in Green Arrow was actually Bucky, er... before he... um... all right, it makes no sense.

DMike

12-12-2005, 09:46 PM

Besides, everyone knows that if Jason was dead he wouldn't be in Heaven anyway. :p

Sabrinaset

12-12-2005, 10:04 PM

The Robin you saw was actually the future ghost of Burt Ward.

Guts/Batman

12-12-2005, 11:17 PM

I don't think Jason's presence in heaven is necessarily a discrepancy. I'm among those who think that the Red Hood is actually the Jason of another earth.

I thought that, too...

Until I saw the Solicit to Batman Annual #25. :mad:

It made me mad and sad at the same time.

DC, you have a seriously big set of cajones for letting Winick retcon A Death in the Family!! Seriously...why do that?

RedSilver

12-13-2005, 02:06 AM

I thought that, too...

Until I saw the Solicit to Batman Annual #25. :mad:

It made me mad and sad at the same time.

DC, you have a seriously big set of cajones for letting Winick retcon A Death in the Family!! Seriously...why do that?

Can't resist....mustn't...use....overused....line...GAAA AH

Because you touch yourself at night....

yeah, so worth it.

Also, I've the TPB of death in the family, from titan books, where, on the back of the book, it says, and I quote;

"It'ld be a really sleazy thing to bring him back." Denny O'neil

That take winick !

west3man

12-13-2005, 02:09 AM

Can't resist....mustn't...use....overused....line...GAAA AH

Because you touch yourself at night....

yeah, so worth it.

Also, I've the TPB of death in the family, from titan books, where, on the back of the book, it says, and I quote;

"It'ld be a really sleazy thing to bring him back." Denny O'neil

That take winick !
Ha!

*wonders if this was really Winnick's idea*

Guts/Batman

12-13-2005, 02:20 AM

Ha!

*wonders if this was really Winnick's idea*

That's true.

We don't know if it was just a ruse by Loeb when he wrote Hush or if Loeb really intended for a writer to pick up the potential Jason Todd storyline after Hush had finished.

Like I have said in threads before, just about every storyline in Batman write now had it's baby feet in Hush and has more or less totally ignored continuity previous to Hush.

As is, in Hush, there is no way on panel for Winick's story of how Red Hood ducked out of the "Jason Todd"- Batman fight in Hush to work. It just doesn't work.

Another clue that Didio was the driving force behind this was that he was the one to say that Jason Todd getting out of the fight happened "off panel." Which is the only way to explain how Jason got out of that fight.

Winick didn't say that. Didio did.

Winick has had more than enough time to get this arc to where he has. This overall arc could have been shrunk with no effect on the story.

The Mirrorball Man

12-13-2005, 02:22 AM

Didn't Jason Todd swing through Heaven in Smith's Green Arrow?
Apparently, Jason Todd swings both ways.

Calamas

12-13-2005, 06:16 AM

Winick has had more than enough time to get this arc to where he has. This overall arc could have been shrunk with no effect on the story.
But that would mean having to plan the next story. Why do that before you have to. Stretch this one instead. Particularly when you have other commitments.

Cayman

12-13-2005, 06:21 AM

We saw Jason in Limbo in Day of Judgement. He was in Heaven too? He sure knows his way around the afterlife.

Cay

west3man

12-13-2005, 06:30 AM

We saw Jason in Limbo in Day of Judgement. He was in Heaven too? He sure knows his way around the afterlife.

Cay
I didn't know that.

Is Limbo an eternal commitment? I thought people could move from Limbo to other states or "locations."

ScottDMSimmons

12-13-2005, 06:50 AM

west3man

12-13-2005, 06:54 AM

Captain Jim

12-13-2005, 09:06 PM

Guts/Batman

12-13-2005, 09:28 PM

The rumor mill has always said that Loeb had originally intended to have Jason be Hush for real, but that the editors got cold feet at the last minute.

The more recent storyline, I think, was indeed Winick's idea (if I'm remembering that old interview right).

As for Batman Annual...well, until I read it, I'm not ruling anything out.

Jason being Hush right off the bat I think would have been a better idea than having the rediculous "Who is Hush?" storyline that has gone on for the last 2-3 years in GK.

I have never liked Hush and definitely not liking Winick's current Jason Todd. He's not working on his character enough.

That is true though (about the Annual). Anything could happen but that solicit is...awfully enlightening.

Captain Jim

12-13-2005, 09:36 PM

I was underwhelmed by the original Hush storyline (though the pictures were pretty; Lee does a nice Neal Adams imitation).

And the follow-up stuff in Gotham Knights has been absolutely dreadful.

So far I haven't minded Winick's "Jason Todd" stuff. (Don't think his Batman stories have been too bad in general. I like them better than most of his other work and think they're probably superior to anything else appearing in the Batman core titles right now--though that's not exactly high praise.)

Guts/Batman

12-13-2005, 09:51 PM

Agreed on all fronts.

I've said my peace on Hush so I won't say it on this thread but I was very underwhelmed by the original Hush storyline myself. I'm only on board the final issues of GK to see if I get my wish fulfilled: Hush broken. :D

Winick's Green Arrow is hilariously bad, I think. Killing half of Mia's high school was going wayyyyy overboard. Plus, Mia was totally incompetent. In short, his GA has a few problems that need remedied.

His Outsiders...is bleh.

His Batman is definitely the superior of his three books. Totally agreed. And the Batman book is definitely better than any of the core books but that's not saying much.

The last issue of the City of Crime arc was confusing. It was a "non-conclusion" conclusion. Nightwing is..."wow" bad. I don't read Robin so I can't comment. The last arc of Batgirl...sucked. GK blows, IMO.

I think in all of his books he is focusing too much on violence telling the story. He's realying on the violence to carry the story. He isn't allowing the characters to tell the story.

And that I think is a mistake on his part.

jwd

12-13-2005, 10:10 PM

His Batman is definitely the superior of his three books. Totally agreed. And the Batman book is definitely better than any of the core books but that's not saying much.

Based on most of the comments I've seen about the books I guess I'm doing good then picking only Batman to read out of the Batbooks right now.

I'm undecided on OYL. I'll definately pick up Bat/Tec. Robin is probably next on my "might try" list. Nightwing and Catwoman would be next but they're probably on the "read 1 issue to see what the setup is" list.

Captain Jim

12-13-2005, 10:14 PM

Aw, come on Joe. For old times sake! ;)

jwd

12-13-2005, 11:18 PM

Aw, come on Joe. For old times sake! ;)

Heh. Well buying a new house, car and adding a kid to the family lineup in the last couple of years tends to take a toll on the pocketbook. So, I'm having to be more "selective" in my choices. :)

AlistairCrane

12-14-2005, 10:05 AM

If you go back and re-read the 2nd-to-last issue of Hush, it absolutely fits that Jason could've switched places with Clayface.

And I'm glad Judd had the cojones to bring Jason back. If I ever got to write Batman, bringing back Jason would have been my first story because everyone would talk about it.

Choppa

12-14-2005, 10:44 AM

wow

I had no idea he'd had so many post-mortem appearances.

Yeah Jasons more popular in death than 2pac. We need a JT album ASAP.

Jeff O.

12-15-2005, 06:48 AM

I seem to remember that when Mordru raised the dead in the Five Year Gap/pre-Zero Hour LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES, Jason Todd was one of the heroes whose body was raised. It was the corpse of a young Robin, wearing the design with the green shorts that Dick Grayson and Jason Todd wore. I don't think his name was given, but it must have been intended as Jason, even though the story took place in the thirtieth century. I don't have the issues of that storyline handy to see how many panels Jason appeared in, but the issues came out in 1993. Mordru was gathering an army of zombies.

Anyone else remember this "appearance" of Jason?

Jim Yost

12-15-2005, 06:58 AM

Well, there was a Jason Todd resurrection in Zero Hour. They never dealt with it in the miniseries itself, but I can't remember if they did anything in the actual Bat-books at the time.

It was a one-panel deal, I belive in issue 1, where the captions are talking about what other things might be happening as a result of the time fluctuations. Batman is in an alleyway or something, and a shadowy figure watches from up above... revealed to be the Jason Robin... there's some comment about how that will have repercussions... and then that's it. Never again seen in the book.

So, my thought? Zero Hour somehow created another Jason, like brought one in from the divergent Hypertimeline where Jason wasn't dead, and he's just been lurking all this time. Meanwhile, the "original" Jason is dead as a doornail.

Choppa

12-15-2005, 12:07 PM

Then why is the coffin empty?

LORD FALLEN ELDOR

12-15-2005, 06:11 PM

I don't understand how that's possible if only E1 and E2 existed at the end of COIE.

Also, Smith's own movies don't even follow their own continuity, so forget his comics.

yeah he doesn't care much for continuity, or rather her prefers selective continuity. Wonder Woman was displaced in his GA story. She wouldn't have known him ten years ago because post crisis she wasn't a founding member of the JL. Post crisis she came after the crisis...

Buried Alien

12-15-2005, 06:50 PM

Guts/Batman

12-15-2005, 07:04 PM

Then why is the coffin empty?

With no body ever being in it?

LordEd1976

12-15-2005, 07:39 PM

I didn't know that.

Is Limbo an eternal commitment? I thought people could move from Limbo to other states or "locations."

if I remember correctly, its stated at the end of the DoJ mini that the sould in Limbo would get their chancve to appeal and maybe move on towards their final rest.

and speaking as one raised Catholic, I was taught Limbo is a temporary thing until the soul is reday to enter heaven.

Captain Jim

12-15-2005, 08:51 PM

I thought that was purgatory?

Choppa

12-15-2005, 08:54 PM

With no body ever being in it?

I was responding this:

So, my thought? Zero Hour somehow created another Jason, like brought one in from the divergent Hypertimeline where Jason wasn't dead, and he's just been lurking all this time. Meanwhile, the "original" Jason is dead as a doornail.

If the original is still dead, then what happened to his body?

Guts/Batman

12-15-2005, 08:55 PM

I thought that was purgatory?

Yea...

That's what I thought too.

As for DC Limbo, in JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice One half went to Fate's Tower the other went to Limbo and it required lots of power or a plot device to get them out.

How many ways are there to get out of Limbo?

Guts/Batman

12-15-2005, 08:56 PM

I was responding this:

I know, I was just adding your post of his post.

The only way I can fathom him surviving A Death in the Family (which would be the case if the solicit to the annual is correct), is if Batman mistakenly considered him dead.

Then before the body was put in the casket, it was taken by someone who nursed him back to health and trained him.

Now, there are only a few select characters that could have done such a thing.

The leading candidate would be Ra's because he was alive then and by doing this he could really stick it to Batman.

I suppose that Shiva could have been part of the plan as well.

Doom

12-16-2005, 02:59 PM

Don't forget that Jason was also dead in the Deadman mini-series.
I'd have to dig it up, but I remember something about cages, and Jason saving someone.

--Scott

http://spider-bob.com/heroes/dc/images/Deadman03.jpg

Ah the Deadman series.

The series had one problem. The premise behind the series was that Deadman ended up being present at the death of many of the major heroes as they happened (like Barry Allen, Jason Todd, Superman and I think two others who I can't remember.)
The problem with this is, even though he was there, it was obvious that DC wasn't going to let Boston actually change DC history. So he basically failed every time he tried to save the hero.
In some cases this was done in spectacular fashion, since Boston's power was to possess people, which you'd imagine would allow him to change history fairly easily.
Nope, he can't possess the Anti-Monitor to save Barry.
He can't possess Doomsday to save Superman.
He couldn't even possess the Joker because he was too crazy.
By the end of the series, even Boston was making jokes about how it seemed like he couldn't possess ANYONE.

In one of the issues , Boston does indeed talk to Jason's soul after he dies from the Joker. However the main villian shows up and captures Jason soul (it's part of Neron's plan to become a full fledge demon after he was turned to a rhyming demon after some DC Crossover, Judgement Day.)

In the end of the series, Neron's entire plan of soul capturing heroes was undone by time travel. So the series never really happened, or something. So it can't really be used.
Oh and I would be remiss if I didn't point out that it had a scene where Superman's CORPSE was shown to have too much willpower to allow it to be possessed by the villian. (Who's name I forget, but he had powers like Deadmans.)
And after forcing the spirit out of it's body, Superman's corpse is polite enough to close the lid on it's coffin, while it waits inside to be resurected.

As for DC Limbo, in JLA/JSA: Virtue and Vice One half went to Fate's Tower the other went to Limbo and it required lots of power or a plot device to get them out.

That was a different Limbo. That was a pocket dimension created by DC's Odin to run as a kind of feasability study to see if the DC Gods could survive Ragnarock. It wasn't the purgatory seen in DOJ.

That's true.

We don't know if it was just a ruse by Loeb when he wrote Hush or if Loeb really intended for a writer to pick up the potential Jason Todd storyline after Hush had finished.

Like I have said in threads before, just about every storyline in Batman write now had it's baby feet in Hush and has more or less totally ignored continuity previous to Hush.

As is, in Hush, there is no way on panel for Winick's story of how Red Hood ducked out of the "Jason Todd"- Batman fight in Hush to work. It just doesn't work.

Another clue that Didio was the driving force behind this was that he was the one to say that Jason Todd getting out of the fight happened "off panel." Which is the only way to explain how Jason got out of that fight.

Not true. While the switch would have had to happen off panel (and really given the nature of comics, almost every thing actually happens off panel, our minds just put together panels and try to fill in the blanks) the place where the switch could have taken place DID happen on panel.

Observe this page from Hush.
http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/7538/hush8xp.th.jpg (http://img400.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hush8xp.jpg)

Look at the top pnnel where Jason leaps over Batman and makes a dash towards the Church tower.
Batman's head is down looking at the ground as he recovers from being hit in the face by Jason. He's a bit dizzy and groggy. He's also busy in his mind trying to figure out if this is really Jason at all.
Note also that Jason has managed to sprint a quite sizable distance. (Even moving past a tombstone that says "Brian Azreallo" the next writer on Batman at the time.)There's a number of large trees and tombstones in the way.

It's here that the switch must have taken place.

It's easily plausable that in this sequence that the cast could have lost sight of Jason for half a second. And that's time enough in fiction for a switch like this to be made.

Want more proof?
Well it's difficult given the three page rule but okay.

Open up your copy of that issue of Batman. Pay close attention to the fight. Notice how Jason's head get's busted open by Batman in the first punch thrown. Notice how he has a large gash and blood all over his face. Notice also how Batman similarly takes a number of hits to the face, leaving blood all over it (so much so that he has to spit it onto his gloves.)
Now notice the page where Batman stabs Jason in the leg with one of his throwing Rangs.

Notice this page.
http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/4495/hush13kt.th.jpg (http://img400.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hush13kt.jpg)

The blood and gash on Jason's face are still visable. Also Jason pulls out the Rang, leaving a noticable wound in his leg.

The next page (haven't scanned it) Jason and Batman continue fighting. Blood is still on Jason's face.
The most interesting part is where Jason kicks Batman in the face. He does so with his bad/ injured leg. Here, Jason's speach bubble covers the entire area of his leg that would have been wounded/ cut open in the last page. The placing of the word bubble appears deliberate. Like they didn't want to remind the audiance about such a large and noticable wound.

Why?
Well, the next page is the gataway/Clayface switch that I posted above.

Then we get this page.
http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/5293/hush22es.th.jpg (http://img400.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hush22es.jpg)

Observe, how Jason's leg (the one he's leading with in the kick) it's wound has completely vanished. (As has the costume damage.)
And look at the close up of Jason's face. There's no scare. There's no blood. No evidence that he's been in a fight like there was two pages ago. Meanwhile Batman is still bloodied and wounded.

After all why would it? Clayface wasn't in the fight before this, it was Jason.

As for why Batman didn't notice this, there's two reasons.

1) He was still trying to work out the Jason mystery, and missed these details. (Unsurprising. For him the fight would have been in constant movement. The audiance at least has the opertunity to pause and spot these small details.)

2) If he had noticed and commented on these details, everyone would become aware of it, and it would become a plot point.
Left without mention, it's a suitable point that can be dealt with later as a mystery.
If Batman says "he's lost all his wounds. This wasn't the Jason I was fighting 30 seconds ago!" then they have to follow up on that plot, or admite that it wasn't Jason at all.

So there's the evidence folks.

As for the question at hand. A similar one was asked after Colossus was resurected (since he was seen in Heaven in a Wolverine issue.)
I guess the answer is the skeptics answer. IE they weren't really in Heaven at all. They was just having a near death experience brought about due to injury/trauma etc...
The irony here is I personally believe in the afterlife, yet have to resort to the aethist answer to try and explain this. I don't really believe it myself.

LordEd1976

12-16-2005, 04:30 PM

I thought that was purgatory?

Purgatory is the more formal/correct term. Limbo can be used as a common way to refer to such a place.

Choppa

12-17-2005, 03:34 PM

It had to be Jason when he said the first line to Batman because it was the exact same thing that he said in "Death..." and there's no way that Clayface, Tommy, or anyone could have known what he said at that time.

Unless you go by the theory that Ra's took his body pre-burial. Jason could have told him what he said and he could have told Clayface. But doesn't work because Ghul was mad at HUSH and Riddler and prolly wouldn't help them with their scheme. Then again, at the end the convo between Bruce and Riddler made it clear that Jason's body wasn't really a major part of the overall scheme. But then how do you explain the fact that Bruce moved the body? He never checked to see that there was a body in it when he moved it perhaps? Ugh...my head hurts.

Sean Whitmore

12-17-2005, 08:30 PM

And don't forget...Oliver Queen himself was in Heaven in that exact same story. And I don't mean the Oliver that visited Heaven, I mean the Oliver that was already there.

So, yeah. You know. Comic afterlife and all that. Really just a state of mind. ;)

SEAN

Sabrinaset

12-17-2005, 08:40 PM

I guess the answer is the skeptics answer. IE they weren't really in Heaven at all. They was just having a near death experience brought about due to injury/trauma etc...

The DC Afterlife Area/Heaven/Hell/Limbo is merely a fiction created by the mind of an extremely powerful DCU Mutant named Didio. Whenever DC characters "die", they don't really die but instead travel to the fictional universe where concepts such as time or continuity do not necessarily apply. Several dozen Hawkmen live there.

Rumor has it that an equally unbalanced mind from another universe named "Bendis" also frequents this land, but these remain rumors and are, so far, unconfirmed.

pennywisdom

12-18-2005, 04:49 AM

So, yeah. Didn't their visit to Heaven show a "Robin" swinging somewhere? Anyone else remember that?
You could just interpret that as in-joke instead of ironclad canon. Much of what creators insert into comics just represents them goofing off.

For example, I don't think the X-Men universe typically has the word "sex" subliminally placed throughout, as Ethan Van Sciver depicted it.

west3man

12-18-2005, 08:35 AM

You could just interpret that as in-joke instead of ironclad canon. Much of what creators insert into comics just represents them goofing off.

For example, I don't think the X-Men universe typically has the word "sex" subliminally placed throughout, as Ethan Van Sciver depicted it.
There's hidden messages and then there are obvious references.

I'd like to take another look at that book and reconsider just how obvious this one was. I thought it was blatant, but maybe I'm misremembering.

Gingold

12-18-2005, 10:05 AM

The latest issue of Teen Titans suggests that something or someone has opened the door to the afterlife. I'd suggest that Jason was really dead- hence his appearances in the afterlife, but he got better. How and why just hasn't been answered yet.

As for them possibly retconning "A Death in the Family"- meh. Lots of much better storylines have been retconned. I'm not going to lose a whole lot of sleep over ti.

outlander78

12-18-2005, 11:02 AM

Thanks for the Didio/Bendis laugh!