Why does the GCPD still deny the existence of Batman?

[megladon8]

Everyone knows he exists. Like half the city has run into him at one point or another.

He is constantly blowing stuff up around the city, and mass destruction is caused by him, whether directly or indirectly, like every freaking night.

Plus, there's the whole issue of the Bat signal. I'm sure the residents of Gotham aren't blind to a giant white spotlight with a bat in the middle.

So honestly...does the GCPD really think they are fooling anyone?

Why are they still denying his existence?

It'd be like the US Government trying to tell citizens of the USA that like, Tom Cruise is just a figment of their imagination. None of his movies are real...they're just an elaborate hoax by uh...the Middle East.

[Lorendiac]

Everyone knows he exists. Like half the city has run into him at one point or another.

He is constantly blowing stuff up around the city, and mass destruction is caused by him, whether directly or indirectly, like every freaking night.

Plus, there's the whole issue of the Bat signal. I'm sure the residents of Gotham aren't blind to a giant white spotlight with a bat in the middle.

So honestly...does the GCPD really think they are fooling anyone?

Why are they still denying his existence?

It'd be like the US Government trying to tell citizens of the USA that like, Tom Cruise is just a figment of their imagination. None of his movies are real...they're just an elaborate hoax by uh...the Middle East.

You left out the Batmobile cruising down the dark streets in the middle of the night on a regular basis - that is one distinctive-looking automobile! (Or whole fleet of automobiles used in rotation, or whatever!) :)

I haven't actually bought any Bat-titles on a regular basis since before "War Games," but I had the vague impression that while it was happening (fall of 2004 or thereabouts?) Batman was captured on film by a TV camera and is now "officially known to exist." Has someone been publishing new stories in which the GCPD is still trying to stonewall reporters by saying he's just an urban legend without any solid evidence to support his existence? Which issues did that happen in? I'm curious. :)

[Alan2099]

You forgot the VERY public fight with Bane.

[Watchman]

How about his masquerades with the Joker? I'm sure some of them have gone public by now (they only fight every other day ;)).

[Captain Jim]

As Lorendiac implies, Batman's existance is no longer in doubt since War Games. That was one of the changes in the status quo that was made at that time.

[megladon8]

As Lorendiac implies, Batman's existance is no longer in doubt since War Games. That was one of the changes in the status quo that was made at that time.


Ah, OK. I haven't read War Games, myself. Is it any good?

******************************THREAD HIJACK******************************


Discuss War Games.

Worth reading? Much impact to the universe (obviously, as it's been pointed out, there has been some)?

[Guts/Batman]

Ah, OK. I haven't read War Games, myself. Is it any good?

******************************THREAD HIJACK******************************


Discuss War Games.

Worth reading? Much impact to the universe (obviously, as it's been pointed out, there has been some)?

War Games is so full of bad characterization, totally unexplainable things and just horribly bad writing. Read the tpb if you can for free because this is not worth paying for.

Reading the tpbs may have made it better but the story was very subpar. Some say War Games is where BatDick was born. I agree with that.

He has more than a few "dick" moments in this arc.

Cosquences of War Games:

--Black Mask now the "kingpin" of the crime families:

That's not bad. Black Mask was one bad dude in this arc. The torture he uses is...awe inspiring and he has some very good lines. However, why he is able to get there is a massive, massive, massive screw-up by Batman and crew.

And that massive screw up is why Akins has a "shoot to kill" order out on anyone who wears a mask in Gotham. This is the primary source of Akins hate of Batman.

--Batman now public (as if it wasn't before):

His image caught on news cameras because he wants a send a message that the situation is very seriouis indeed.

--Orpheus dies:

He is the center of Batman's "War Game" plan to take over the crime families and have control of the crime families (sounds odd, doesn't it?). However, Black Mask offs him in front of Spoiler (Stephanie Brown, Robin IV).

Stephanie is unable to get away from Black Mask and is tortured badly so he can learn about Batman's plans(she had told Catwoman about how she screwed up but I'll get to that later).

--Death of Spoiler (Robin IV):

Stephanie Brown dies at the end of War Games, marking this to be the second Robin to die on Batman's watch. She supposedly dies from her wounds given her by Black Mask before she got away. (However, it is revealed that someone else killed her.)

Stephanie dies in the hospital with Batman by her side, telling him it wasn't his fault. You know how Batman reacts to that...

Anyways, she dies. Batman's dickery alert: He had opportunity to tell Tim (Steph's bf) that she was still alive but chose to tell him after she had died. Why?!? Who knows why?

Spoiler is the reason why this situation exists. Batman fired her for being unable to handle it (see Jason Todd) so she decides to prove to him that she is able to handle it by implementing one of Batman's "War Games."

So she does so. And does it crappily. Because of her Orpheus dies and Black Mask is able to take control of the crime families (and probably why The Society can be based in GC).

Batman's outlaw status:

Batman's plan was to have all the crime families come to a big park to unite under Orpheus. However, Batman did not know that Orpheus was dead and now Black Mask (wearing a clayish stuff) was really the Orpheus there. So he gets there and Orpheus tells the crowd to kill Batman.

Prior to this, Batman had taken control of the police force and had them at the park outside to round up all the thugs and stuff. Batman had asked Commissioner Akins to give him control of the force for the next 8 hours but Akins refused.

Batman took over the system and told the cops to go to said location. Most listened. So when the riot breaks out in the park (Robinson Park, IIRC). Many cops are killed and Akins (at the scene) gives the order to shoot to kill anyone in a mask.

Scarecrow decides to follow Black Mask's lead and goes with him as Batman is stuck dealing with Killer Croc.

Batman is now an outlaw again.

Destruction of Oracle's base:

Hush made a small appearance in War Games. He told Black Mask the location of the "Batcave". And it was Oracle's watchtower. Black Mask leads a television crew to it and gets in through all the defenses.

Through a laser field, with no one left he throws Scarecrow into the lasers turning him into some monster that was left unexplained but later subdued by Nightwing and company.

Oracle is held hostage more or less until Batman shows up. He shows up and he is big time pissed. Batman and Black Mask fight (Batman is going on like 3 straight days of fighting) and is unable to hear Barbara's pleas to stop. So she decided to blow up the Watchtower to force Batman to choose between her and Black Mask.

He saves Barbara and Black Mask gets away and is risen to his current rank in Gotham City. The top mob boss. Barbara is now based in Metropolis.

Basically, I think I can describe this in one sentence. War Games makes NML look like child's play for Batman.

War Games wrecked his good standing with the city. Now, most citizens see Batman as a bad thing (see Batman #633). And more importantly, Batman is now wanted. Black Mask is now in more command of the city than Batman is.

Also, as a result, Batgirl and Robin now protect Bludhaven. Batman is now back to going solo. Penguin is now in Bludhaven again. Killer Croc wants so major vengeance on Black Mask.

I think it is during this period that Nightwing allows Tarantula kill Blockbuster (a villain who said he would go after his family) then the infamous rape of Nightwing in Nightwing #93.

This post is long enough as is. I'll get to War Crimes in the next one.

[Guts/Batman]

War Crimes

War Crimes is a story to finish War Games completely. This is a Detective/Batman crossover that cut into both stories. (Detective 808-809, Batman 643-644)

War Crimes is a story that is supposed to lay blame for the events of War Games. War Crimes is an appropriate...ending for War Games because it was equally lackluster in story.

Black Mask impersonates Batman to continue to kill Batman's good name even further by killing Stephanie's mom on live tv. Joker makes a token appearance and tries to take out Black Mask "because it is my job to kill Robins."

Batman KOs them both and lets them the GCPD take them in but Black Mask gets away. A few people go on trial.

Commissioner Akins is acquitted. Arturo Rodriguez is found guilty of conspiracy (to murder). Black Mask is convicted of murder but gets away. Joker goes back to Arkham...again.

Then the ending. We can't forget the ending that makes you wanna say "Screw you, Willingham and Didio!"

We find out that Spoiler wasn't killed by Black Mask at all. She could have been saved but Dr. Leslie Thompkins (yes, the same that told Bruce that she would let Mr. Zsasz kill her instead of fighting for her life with violence in NML) withheld treatment that could have saved her.

And why? Because she wanted to spare Stephanie from the life of what she saw Bruce and Tim and Dick go through. A life of pain. So she decided to kill her.

Batman found her in Africa told her that he "doesn't have relationships with murderers" (really, Batman? Hmmmmmmmmmm). He leaves her oon the African plains instead of bringing her back because he knows she can't go anywhere. She is really not going to be back in the Bat-Family.

Like I believe that but anyways...She begs him to kill her but he refuses and leaves her there anf flies back to Gotham City just to hear some "Red Hood" is cleaning the streets.

Both stories are fairly-strongly retarded, have all-around bad characterization and really wanna make you say "Screw you, DC."

War Games and War Crimes taken on the whole are part of the reason why the Bat-books suck hardcore right now. Everything in Batman comes from Hush and War Games. Two crappy ass stories.

War Games/War Crimes is probably the darkest Batman's world has ever gotten. EVER. It got way too dark.

Batman #644 is very, very infamous now to Batman fans.

[Calamas]

Long story short: “War Games” was a disservice to the integrity of the characters and the intelligence of the readership.

“War Crimes” was more of the same, only shorter.

[megladon8]

I know Oracle (Barb Gordon) is dead. Didn't that occur in War Games?


EDIT: THanks for the explanation, Guts...reading that, I think that's enough for me to get caught up to speed. Sounds like a disservice to Batman :)

[Kirayoshi]

I know Oracle (Barb Gordon) is dead. Didn't that occur in War Games?


EDIT: THanks for the explanation, Guts...reading that, I think that's enough for me to get caught up to speed. Sounds like a disservice to Batman :)No, Oracle is very much alive and well. She's just pretty much washed her hands of Batman and is now living in Metropolis and still heading up Birds of Prey.

Of course after OYL, all bets are off.

[Kirayoshi]

Sorry. Double-post.

[prand_2002]

Everyone knows he exists. Like half the city has run into him at one point or another.


Yes half the city has run into him, but even those who have run into him dont know whether he is a man or a beast or a creature. Eyewitness reports will be dismissed because they see him in the night and they are shit scared themselves. So people will always dismiss Batman sightings as hallucination or effects of Trauma.


He is constantly blowing stuff up around the city, and mass destruction is caused by him, whether directly or indirectly, like every freaking night.


Maybe in the movie. Comics Batman is a master of stealth. Even his explosive Battles take place in deserted wharehouses or the graveyard or the dock. You have to consider the fact that most of Batman's fight happen after midnight when there are very few people. This is Gotham. People probably go to bed early beacuse it is a crime ridden city.


Plus, there's the whole issue of the Bat signal. I'm sure the residents of Gotham aren't blind to a giant white spotlight with a bat in the middle.


Normal people in comics are dumb. They cant differentiate between Clark and Superman even if you make them stand together. Many people believe that the Bat signal is turned on just to scare the criminals and that he is not real.


So honestly...does the GCPD really think they are fooling anyone?
Why are they still denying his existence?


This is something i dont understand either. Every city that has a Superhero admits that the Superhero helps them. Metropolis police admits Superman helps them, Keystone police admit the Flash helps them but the GCPD does not admit Batman helps them.(Actually he doesnt help much.Tries to do everything on his own and sometimes even withholds some of the evidence. This is actually sensible because almost 97% of Gotham Cops are corrupt.)

So in summation i think most people in Gotham know he is real. But he has not made any T.V appearence, no photo so the people all over the world are sceptical. Hence whenever the Batman myth thing comes up it means most of Gotham know he is real but most of the world thinks of him as an urban legend that originated in Gotham just to boost up the tourism or to make the criminals afraid or just a cheap publicity stunt.

Also another reason why GCPD denies his existence is the other city police depts make fun of GCPD telling them that they depend on an imaginary boogeyman to scare the criminals(when they themselves depend on Superheros of their city).


I just reread my post and it seems really vague to me. Hope you understand it better than me. :rolleyes:

[Guts/Batman]

No, Oracle is very much alive and well. She's just pretty much washed her hands of Batman and is now living in Metropolis and still heading up Birds of Prey.

Yep.

Also, she survived her fight with Brainiac's or Brother Eye's "virus" (this is the last seen appearance of James Gordon, too).

Now, the Calculator has her in his sights. So it's now: The Society vs. BoP.

In addition, she has begun to feel her lower extremities lately. So...

[megladon8]

Yep.

Also, she survived her fight with Brainiac's or Brother Eye's "virus" (this is the last seen appearance of James Gordon, too).

Wasn't she dead for a time, though?

I very vividly remember a scene in which Black Mask blows up Oracle's headquarters, and she was in there. Batman and Robin even talked about having lost her.

Was it one of those "hey guys! I'm not really dead!" things?



In addition, she has begun to feel her lower extremities lately. So...


*groan* Oh God. Yet another instance of writers unable to think of a new original idea, so they bring an old character back.

How long do you speculate the wait will be before she is Batgirl again? 6 months? A year?

[Lorendiac]

*groan* Oh God. Yet another instance of writers unable to think of a new original idea, so they bring an old character back.

How long do you speculate the wait will be before she is Batgirl again? 6 months? A year?

Depends entirely upon how you count it. Have you heard that early next year - around March - DC's regular titles will be jumping forward to "One Year Later" (OYL)? Many fans have pointed out that this would be a great chance to have Barbara walking again. We'd simply be told that a full "year" of intensive therapy and exercise had magically happened "between the scenes" during the "twelve-month interval" (from her point of view) after the February issues of BoP and the Bat-titles ended, and before the March issues began :)

So here's what I meant about it being tricky to answer your question: From our point of view, she may be back on her feet within the next three months. (By next March.) From her point of view, there's still at least another year of hard work and gradual healing involved - even if she is scheduled to be back on her feet next March, which she may not be!

Is all that clear as mud? :)

[Guts/Batman]

Wasn't she dead for a time, though?

I very vividly remember a scene in which Black Mask blows up Oracle's headquarters, and she was in there. Batman and Robin even talked about having lost her.

Was it one of those "hey guys! I'm not really dead!" things?

No...That was the scene I described in my War Games post.

Black Mask goes up to her Watchtower because he thinks its the Batcave. She is up there and so she is taken hostage until Batman arrives. When he arrives, he is pissed and fights with Black Mask.

Barbara tries to calm Batman down from killing Black Mask (which he was going to do if Barbara didn't do what she did). She couldn't get him to hear her voice so she set the auto-destruct on the Watchtower to make Batmand decide what was more important: Killing Black Mask or saving her.

Batman stopped fighting Black Mask and rescued Barbara. That's why her base of operations is Metropolis. She never died.

That was in War Games: Act 3 tpb.

She came close in BoP recently because of that Brainiac virus, though.

The person that Robin and Batman are most likely talking about is Stephanie Brown. Tim's "now dead" girlfriend. That was mostly like after Batman told him that Stephanie had died and tried to consul him. Do you have an issue number for that?

In Batman #633, Bruce basically tells Dick and Tim to get over her death then tries to convince Stephanie's mother that she died a hero and that Batman is necessary.

Of course, she doesn't buy it...at all.

*groan* Oh God. Yet another instance of writers unable to think of a new original idea, so they bring an old character back.

How long do you speculate the wait will be before she is Batgirl again? 6 months? A year?

Why do you think Batgirl got cancelled and the cover of Batgirl #73 has a gravemarker with the name "Cassandra Cain" on it?

Also, do you think it is a coincedence that a new title called "Batwoman" will appear in OYL?

[Lorendiac]

Oh, and as a follow-up point: There is a persistent rumor that DC will be launching a new "Batwoman" title next year, sometime after Infinite Crisis. If they do, Barbara might be the leading lady in it, since she's gotten a little too old to be easily accepted by the fans as Batgirl.

All that is purely speculative at the moment, however.

[Guts/Batman]

That is true.

We don't really have any facts. It's all speculation.

[megladon8]

No...That was the scene I described in my War Games post.

Black Mask goes up to her Watchtower because he thinks its the Batcave. She is up there and so she is taken hostage until Batman arrives. When he arrives, he is pissed and fights with Black Mask.

Barbara tries to calm Batman down from killing Black Mask (which he was going to do if Barbara didn't do what she did). She couldn't get him to hear her voice so she set the auto-destruct on the Watchtower to make Batmand decide what was more important: Killing Black Mask or saving her.

Batman stopped fighting Black Mask and rescued Barbara. That's why her base of operations is Metropolis. She never died.

That was in War Games: Act 3 tpb.

She came close in BoP recently because of that Brainiac virus, though.

The person that Robin and Batman are most likely talking about is Stephanie Brown. Tim's "now dead" girlfriend. That was mostly like after Batman told him that Stephanie had died and tried to consul him. Do you have an issue number for that?

In Batman #633, Bruce basically tells Dick and Tim to get over her death then tries to convince Stephanie's mother that she died a hero and that Batman is necessary.

Of course, she doesn't buy it...at all.

OK. My mistake. I thought she had died in the explosion.



Why do you think Batgirl got cancelled and the cover of Batgirl #73 has a gravemarker with the name "Cassandra Cain" on it?

Also, do you think it is a coincedence that a new title called "Batwoman" will appear in OYL?

I don't read Batgirl, so I wasn't aware of this.

Still doesn't change the fact that I think it's a bad idea. I think this whole "re-envisioning DC" thing is terrible.

Any word on who is writing Batwoman?

[Lorendiac]

This has reminded me - way back before Thanksgiving, I started a poll about who (if anyone) will be the new Batwoman. It's been a couple of weeks, at least, since I posted any updates in that thread on how the voting is currently going. Probably about time to bring it to people's attention again :)

[Guts/Batman]

I don't read Batgirl, so I wasn't aware of this.

Still doesn't change the fact that I think it's a bad idea. I think this whole "re-envisioning DC" thing is terrible.

Any word on who is writing Batwoman?

I'm pissed that they cancelled the book. Other than this last arc, Batgirl is the best Bat-book. Along with Birds of Prey, Batgirl is the best Bat-book there is.

I like her as Oracle as well. That's why I think bringing Jason back was such a bad idea. Even worse was the March solicit of Batman Annual #25...

I can't believe they did that. :evilangry

Batwoman is just a rumor at this point. I don't think there has been confirmation on Didio's part.

[megladon8]

I'm pissed that they cancelled the book. Other than this last arc, Batgirl is the best Bat-book. Along with Birds of Prey, Batgirl is the best Bat-book there is.

I like her as Oracle as well. That's why I think bringing Jason back was such a bad idea. Even worse was the March solicit of Batman Annual #25...

I can't believe they did that. :evilangry

Batwoman is just a rumor at this point. I don't think there has been confirmation on Didio's part.


The Batgirl book which you are talking about is the current running Cassandra Cain one, right?

And wasn't Birds of Prey made into a horrendous TV show in which Batman and Catwoman have a child that inexplicably has super powers?

[Guts/Batman]

The Batgirl book which you are talking about is the current running Cassandra Cain one, right?

And wasn't Birds of Prey made into a horrendous TV show in which Batman and Catwoman have a child that inexplicably has super powers?

Yes, the one with Cassandra Cain.

It is best if that show is never brought up again. Batfans disavow any connection to the book.

[protege]

You know, You all brought up a compelling reason as to why Babs WON'T be Batwoman. Why would she don the cowl again, if she's washed her hands of the batfamily? And, has Red Hood confronted Batman about Stephanie's death?

[Guts/Batman]

No, Jason hasn't done that.

[Captain Jim]

I seem to recall that the new Batwoman book was official, though I know no creative team has been announced. I could be wrong on the official part, though.

Personally, I for the most part liked the short-lived BOP TV show. Having Huntress be the daughter of Batman and Catwoman was a throw-back to the original version of the character from Earth 2. Huntress' "powers" were evidently inherited from her mother, who had cat-powers in the second Batman movie. (I think the TV people were assuming that this was the version most of their audience would be most familiar with.)

[Guts/Batman]

Catwoman in Batman Returns had cat powers.

[Captain Jim]

^^^

I think that's what I just said. :)

[megladon8]

She had cat powers? I don't remember that at all.

[Captain Jim]

Don't you remember? She fell several stories from a building and landed saftely on "all fours."

[megladon8]

Don't you remember? She fell several stories from a building and landed saftely on "all fours."

I remember her falling into cat litter at least once.

But I don't remember her actually surviving any far falls without something breaking her fall.

Besides, I absolutely adore the movie, but it's not really in keeping with ANYTHING about Batman. It's kind of like, Tim Burton's own ElseWorlds story.

[Guts/Batman]

Hmmmmmm...could be.

It has been awhile since I have seen the movie.

[Captain Jim]

it's not really in keeping with ANYTHING about Batman. It's kind of like, Tim Burton's own ElseWorlds story.

Well, yeah, of course. Same thing about the BOP TV show. And, as I indicated, I simply think the BOP producers thought this would be the version of Catwoman the majority of their viewers were most familar with. And, if so, they were probably correct on that point.

[megladon8]

Well, yeah, of course. Same thing about the BOP TV show. And, as I indicated, I simply think the BOP producers thought this would be the version of Catwoman the majority of their viewers were most familar with. And, if so, they were probably correct on that point.

Indeed, I agree. I just never thought of that.

It was still a terrible show :).

[Captain Jim]

In your opinion. ;)

[megladon8]

In your opinion. ;)


Yep. But I think a lot of people agree.


EDIT: However, I'll at least give it one thing. The show had a good look to it...if it had been written a million times better, I believe it could have been a great show.

The BatGirl costume was much better than the one in Batman & Robin.

[Captain Jim]

I seem to recall that the new Batwoman book was official, though I know no creative team has been announced. I could be wrong on the official part, though.

Well, I did some research on this, and it turns out I *was* wrong--I think.

This was first announced in the Lying in the Gutters rumor column in late September--though it *was* given a green light. (And this guy has a darn good track record.)

Comics Continuum announced it as fact in mid-October, but gave no source for their information or details. I suspect they were just picking up on the LITG article.

I thought it was interesting that somebody mentioned that 2006 is the 50th anniversary of the (Kathy Kane) Batwoman. That gives the rumor more ammunition, in my mind.

All in all, I'd say it looks pretty likely.

But official? No, not at this time.

[Agentum]

But it it this way it should have been.

If they only had let Batman be a myth to ordinary people, a shadow in the dark to criminals.

It is to much money in the caracter so they let hem be everywhere, even on television in his world.

Its to late to do something about it now.

And he should be alone, maybe with a couple of other crimefighters knowing about him, now he has like a whole family of spinoff characters running around.