So Is anyone else confused as hell by The Filth?

[CURSD BLADE]

The premise seems extremely interesting and Morrison's style here is very Lynch-esk (which I dig alot), but I am not following this plot at all. I am currently reading the trade and am done with the first four issues in it and am pretty lost at this point.

[JLarson]

Read it once, let it sink in, then read it again a few days later, paying a lot more attention. That's what I had to do.

[ianbrill]

It does deserve re-reading. Morrison's too good a writer to make it simple for a reader, which I think makes for a great reading expirence.

I think the Filth is some of the greatest mainstream comics put out in a long time.

[dancj]

It does deserve re-reading. Morrison's too good a writer to make it simple for a reader, which I think makes for a great reading expirence.
Making a story hard to read really isn't a sign of a good writer. Really good writers (like Alan Moore regularly does) can write a complicated story which gives you more each time you read it, but make sense the first time too. Sloppier writers write stories that you need to read more than once to penetrate them.

Grant Morrison can be brilliant, but he can be guilty of this fault on occasion. I haven't read The Filth yet to judge whether this is one of those occasions

Dan

[ianbrill]

Well, maybe hard to read wasn't the best choice of words. I still found it readable. I was never bored or annoyed while reading the book. It's just The Filth is a complicated book and it doesn't spell out any of the answers. I think that is to the book's credits, it respects the reader's intelligence.

Also, it has giant sperms attacking LA. Tell me it's not a great book now.

[jetter_cheeze]

With a comic like the Filth it is best to read it in trade form. I tried to read it when it was coming monthly, but was always lost. I re-read the 5 issues i got and ended up understanding it more. It is best to get the trade and just take a couple days trying to read and understand it.

[Frank Beaton]

Grant Morrison can be brilliant, but he can be guilty of this fault on occasion.
I agree.

I think Morrison is at his best when he's reigned-in, so to speak. Too often he writes stories that are deliberately incomprehensible, and too often people are quick to label them works of genius. But just because a story is hard to follow, doesn't mean it's any smarter. There's something to be said for stories that can be understood without a 400-page companion book.


-F

[Tynne]

There no flawed authors.

Just flawed readers who are unworthy of comprehending the holy glory that those sacred, flawless authors bestow!

And I'm the king of Lichenstein!

[Mighty Broke]

hal·lu·ci·no·gens

say it with me kids

hal·lu·ci·no·gens

GOOD

[Tadhg Adams]

Just flawed readers who are unworthy of comprehending the holy glory that those sacred, flawless authors bestow!


hehe. I don't think I've ever heard any Morrison fan make that accusation. But just because it's not comprehensible to everyone doesn't mean it's not comprehensible to anyone. A lot of Morrison works require knowledge of ideas and concepts that are outside of the book itself, but that doesn't make it incomprehensible. It also doesn't make the book for everybody. It just has a different set of pre-requisites than other books.

[The Mirrorball Man]

I thought The Filth was bizarre, sometimes downright grotesque, and of course, the plot was convoluted, but I didn't think it really was confusing, unreadable or hard to follow. It's a straightforward story.

[Brian Cronin]

I agree.

I think Morrison is at his best when he's reigned-in, so to speak. Too often he writes stories that are deliberately incomprehensible, and too often people are quick to label them works of genius. But just because a story is hard to follow, doesn't mean it's any smarter. There's something to be said for stories that can be understood without a 400-page companion book.


-F

The thing is, I think that you are reading thought processes into Morrison's workings that are not present.

I think Morrison just is into certain ideas, and he wants to express them in his work.

He is not INTENTIONALLY trying to make the work harder to decipher...he's just working with some fairly complex ideas, and yes, complex ideas are going to be harder to get across.

But I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I mean, if that wasn't allowed, Thomas Pynchon would never be allowed to write anything but restaraunt menus (and imagine how trippy those menus would be...;)).

-Brian

[dancj]

A lot of Morrison works require knowledge of ideas and concepts that are outside of the book itself, but that doesn't make it incomprehensible.
Requiring outside knowledge to get the full enjoyment out of a book is fine, but when you need it just to follow the plot, then it's sloppy.

Invisibles was fine in this respect for the first 6 books, but the 7th one made no sense to me whatsoever. I don't know if this is because I don't have the required knowledge or not.

I'll just have to see when I read The Filth...

[Kid Omega]

The actual plot, and the motivations of the main players, are all fairly starightforward.

There are concepts and settings that are complex, but I personally enjoy wrapping my head around that kind of material. I think THE FILTH is one of the best stories I've read out of Vertigo in some time.

There is a sincerity and a beauty beneath all the surface insanity that made me tear up by the end.

Me likey.

If it seems confusing, I would say, If you are enjoying it, roll with it. It will be worth the effort by the end.

I don't think it's deliberately obtuse... I think Milligan is guilty of that from time to time. I think THE FILTH is just being told on several levels from different points of view. Once you get in the groove with it, it's mostly linear.


-k

[aderechelsea]

got completely lost in a point cause i read it in single issue format....

when the series ended i reread it and understood a thousand things more.

i should give it another read sometime soon to get a clearer picture though

[Mighty Broke]

Ah yes, the best thing about a Morrison book. Re-readability.

[superfriend]

As far as aesthetics go, what a damn beautiful TPB....

I love when such attention and creativity is given to packaging something like this. They never give up the concept which makes it that much stronger. It's almost like a manifesto.

I don't think anyone has uttered the word "pretentious" yet, but I hate that that gets thrown around so haphazardly. Not every writer is going to spoonfeed the readers. Sometimes the story is presented but the context is only hinted at. I liked how someone said "prerequesites". There are always going to be prerequesites when reading a story. How elaborate or fundamental those may be are up for grabs.

I guess I really appreciate how after everytime I read something of Morrison's I hit the internet and I'm googling words or chasing down concepts. I wrestle and I learn from his stuff. The more I read of his, the more I'm comfortable with it, but still...he always has me checking. I laugh sometimes because I'll typically run over ground that I've been over before but just because it's him, I'm still checking. Like he's keeping my intellect honest as a reader. There's virtually no resting on your laurels as a reader with Morrison and I have trouble giving people who just dismiss him the benefit of the doubt. I want to call that lazy, but I understand that not everyone wants or enjoys what I do from a work.

[Mighty Broke]

Excellent point. I get really bored with a majority of the stories that are out there. The Filth's opener was a bit like a Surgeon General's Warning. "This story contains the active ingredient Metaphor." I laughed my ass off after reading the intro.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

just purchased the Tradepaperback, and I've read the first part and already I'm scratching my head wondering where it went.

The people in my not-so-local comicshop warned me about this, they had all read it three times and still couldn't figure out what the hell it was all about.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

you know, after finally reading the last chapter... I have to admit that it isn't as confusing as I thought it would be. I think I got it.

[Punchy]

Morrison explains all. Well most anyway.

http://www.newsarama.com/Filth.htm

[Mighty Broke]

One thing that I adore about these types of stories is the fact that it doesn't spoon feed vocaulary to me. Half the time, I have to refer to a dictionary or do a google search to gain perspective. That's fun to me.

[TJ Shoun]

I thought The Filth was outstanding.

It's really thought-provoking stuff, and if you don't like to be challenged as a reader, you probably won't like it.

I also don't think I would've liked it very much if I had read it in the monthly format.

I read it in trade form and I was still pretty confused after the first three or four issues. But after that, things start falling into place and you realize the story itself is fairly straightforward.

Like someone else already mentioned, the story is easily grasped but the concepts may require you think a bit and entertain some new ideas.

The art is really good too.

It's superb literature, really... and I'm not even one of these fanboys who consistently rides Grant's jock either.

[cactusmaac]

Tried it, didn't like it.

All the weirdness did my head in and there wasn't enough to keep me hooked past the first six issues.

[Apathy Boy]

Yeah, I know this thread's ancient, but I just read the trade.

Question: is it just me, or are the editorial staff at Vertigo much less up-tight than they used to be? I vaguely remember that in PREACHER letter columns, Garth Ennis said he wasn't allowed to use the word c*nt and that his Sexual Detectives one-shot was deemed too depraved for publication.

So imagine my pleasant surprise to see Grant Morrison drop the c*nt bomb in a story involving giant attack sperm and a woman using a strap-on to neutralize a bad guy. Is THE FILTH the most obscene book Vertigo has published? If not, what am I missing out on?

Oh, and I thought the book was a riot, even though I don't really get what the deeper meaning of it was. But with a book this fun, who cares?

[dancj]

I've read it now. I didn't find it too confusing at all. It was much more straightforward than the last volume of The Invisibles.

Great stuff.

(I liked the tape they had up that said "Danger - F*ck off")

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

As far as aesthetics go, what a damn beautiful TPB....

I love when such attention and creativity is given to packaging something like this. They never give up the concept which makes it that much stronger. It's almost like a manifesto.


Amen.

Possibly one of the best looking Trades out there.

I found the story slightly confusing, but just took my time with it.

I don't claim to understand everything little thing, but it was understandable.

I intend to read it again soon - I often need to do that with Morrison.

(does it have that weird thing the Invisibles had where it seems different each time you read it?)

[Ozymandis]

The Filth is one of the more intelligent books I've read but I had to read it twice to get the whole story. I think it's the whole meta-textual aspect of the book that makes it confusing. It has some of the most memorable scenes in comics. Sperm invading L.A., monkeys being run over by trains, gigantic pen-wielding hands, and a wannabe super-hero.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

I think that the overal story is pretty easy to follow.

The details however are a bit sketchy, I think I've forgotten most of it already, but it's dependable on the theaory that there is no reality and that everything is part of the imagination of someone else.

Worlds within worlds so to speak.

But ultimately it's to Morrison what slave-traders and mind control plots are to Claremont... the underlying themes are shared between his works. That whole question everything, take nothing for granted in this world because underneath it all lies the real power.

[Ugoff]

Morrison explains all. Well most anyway.

http://www.newsarama.com/Filth.htm

Thanks for the link, it explained alot. I never bought a single issue of the Flith but I wanted to. I might get the TPB one day. I think Morrison is ok. I was understanding everything until he got into the magic stuff and Qabalistic stuff. But whatever.

[Lurker]

I read it over Christmas. I've yet to re-read it; it left a bad taste in my mouth the 1st time around though it was very interesting. Mostly, I like Morrison's mainstream ventures such as his JLA and New X-Men takes. Really looking forward to All-Star Superman too. Never touched INvisibles.

[Kid Seven]

Jus thought I'd drop my two cemts down on this thread. I'm a big fan of Grant Morrison, in particular his JLA, WE3 and Seaguy. I read The Filth a coupla months ago and was blown away by it. It's an astounding story-...I like how someone used the word manifesto-....it has a strength and a sharp, aggressive focus to it.

The story I knew would not completely gel at the first read, but that can be part of the great joy of comic work. Our medium is half visual, half written; however there are often writers who seem to paint with language more than write with it. Try to describe the impact that Moore's use of pirate comics has on the main story in Watchmen. the best word is impressionistic. Same with Gaiman's lush, full prose on much of the Sandman Saga.

I finished The Filth and thought to myself "This is abstract writing. It's like Morrison's taken words and story and swathed them across the page, in formations that dont read as linear or organized on first read. Rather they give an abstract, bloody red and dirty brown feel to the book that permeates and helps you to go through and understand the story more and more.

[stealthwise]

Yeah, I know this thread's ancient, but I just read the trade.

Question: is it just me, or are the editorial staff at Vertigo much less up-tight than they used to be? I vaguely remember that in PREACHER letter columns, Garth Ennis said he wasn't allowed to use the word c*nt and that his Sexual Detectives one-shot was deemed too depraved for publication.

So imagine my pleasant surprise to see Grant Morrison drop the c*nt bomb in a story involving giant attack sperm and a woman using a strap-on to neutralize a bad guy. Is THE FILTH the most obscene book Vertigo has published? If not, what am I missing out on?

Oh, and I thought the book was a riot, even though I don't really get what the deeper meaning of it was. But with a book this fun, who cares?

I remember Gaiman having to change a scene in Sandman because it featured a character masturbating, which was a no-no at the time (and presumably still is in the DCU... at least, I hope it still is, given the change in recent direction and tone... but I digress). And we get to see a good ol' wank in, what, the first issue of this mini? :)

I just read it, enjoyed it, yet know that there's no way in hell I completely understand all of it. But I'm damned sure looking forward to reading it again, feels like I'm getting my money's worth. ;)

[king mob]

I suggest listening to Chris Morris's Blue Jam series and then re-reading Filth.

everything will be made much, much clearer after that.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I finished The Filth and thought to myself "This is abstract writing. It's like Morrison's taken words and story and swathed them across the page, in formations that dont read as linear or organized on first read. Rather they give an abstract, bloody red and dirty brown feel to the book that permeates and helps you to go through and understand the story more and more.

Morrion's work, and The Filth in particular, has always had a good touch of Burroughs thrown in there.

And as for the first post that said The Filth was Lynch-esque, I'd have to disagree.
Everything that isn't normal these days gets called Lynch-esque, but this felt more like a film from Cronenberg (though that could be to do with his association with Burroughs) or even Veerhoven.
(Veerhoven in my opinion hasn't made as many bad steps as people like to think- Showgirls was a work of art, and confirmed him as a true aueter.

[bosshog7169]

I've been picking up back issues here and there. Don't know how I missed this one. I've got about half the issues now and I'm pretty sure I get the jist of it. Its certainly one of the coolest comic ever from what I've seen though. Obviously some form of mushroom was responsible for this work, perhaps even a cactus or two. Maybe even some toad licking. But any health risks Morrison may have taken seem well worth it to me after that scene on the boat with the president in some compromising situations. Classic!

[stealthwise]

(Veerhoven in my opinion hasn't made as many bad steps as people like to think- Showgirls was a work of art, and confirmed him as a true aueter.

Da fug?

What of Robocop?

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Da fug?

What of Robocop?

Robocop (the first one) is great.

It looks like it's your average 80's action film (Rambo, Predator) but really it's one giant joke on the 80's.
Consumerism is out of control, the government's sold everything off, the start of entertainment news etc.

And the fact that most people don't even notice those bit's make it even better.

It's the start of what he acheived with Starship Troopers.

[Agentum]

I don't understand Invisibles at all, i really tried to like it but it's boring boring, i fall asleap when i try to read it.

I like Animal Man and Doom Patrol.

[The Mirrorball Man]

I don't understand Invisibles at all, i really tried to like it but it's boring boring, i fall asleap when i try to read it.

I like Animal Man and Doom Patrol.
Ha! That's interesting. In my opinion, "The Invisibles" was exactly like "Doom Patrol", except that it made sense.

[Agentum]

Ha! That's interesting. In my opinion, "The Invisibles" was exactly like "Doom Patrol", except that it made sense.
:D
Well but Doom Patrol was at least some fun, i don't understand everything of it but i can read it without falling asleap.

And i have tried again to read Invisibles but it's no use i don't get it.

Everybody was telling me about how good it was, a must read etc.

:(

[The Mirrorball Man]

:D
Well but Doom Patrol was at least some fun, i don't understand everything of it but i can read it without falling asleap.

And i have tried again to read Invisibles but it's no use i don't get it.

Everybody was telling me about how good it was, a must read etc.

:(
In my opinion, "The Invisibles" is a great comic book series, engaging on almost every level, but I'd be the first to admit that it's not for everybody. I understand where you're coming from, and there's nothing wrong in thinking that it's boring and pretentious.

[stealthwise]

Robocop (the first one) is great.

It looks like it's your average 80's action film (Rambo, Predator) but really it's one giant joke on the 80's.
Consumerism is out of control, the government's sold everything off, the start of entertainment news etc.

And the fact that most people don't even notice those bit's make it even better.

It's the start of what he acheived with Starship Troopers.

Out of curiosity, what makes Showgirls anything but B-level Cinemax?

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Out of curiosity, what makes Showgirls anything but B-level Cinemax?

The fact that every over the top corny moment was perfectly crafted by Veerhoven to show what he thought of the American Dream.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

In my opinion, "The Invisibles" is a great comic book series, engaging on almost every level, but I'd be the first to admit that it's not for everybody. I understand where you're coming from, and there's nothing wrong in thinking that it's boring and pretentious.

I thought Volume one was bloody fantastic.

Volume two a bit less so, but still alright (except for the cop out at the end of the arc about Boy).
Wish it had a bit more plot than them constantly attacking the same base.

Volume three though.... went right off the rails and wasn't that intresting at all.

So for me it started alright, until Morrison forgot to bring in the story to go with his "big" ideas.

[dancj]

Ha! That's interesting. In my opinion, "The Invisibles" was exactly like "Doom Patrol", except that it made sense.

Doom Patrol only lost me once - during that story where they got mixed up between two alien races at war with each other.

Invisibles lost me for the whole final 12 (or 13?) issue arc which was quite a big one to get lost in seeing it was the one that explained everything

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Invisibles lost me for the whole final 12 (or 13?) issue arc which was quite a big one to get lost in seeing it was the one that explained everything

I think the big problem was that the idea behind it all sounds good when you're just shooting out ideas, but in the context of an ongoing adventure series, it just doesn't work.

The other problem of course being that the execution of those last twelve issues was rather poor - being as it was confusing as hell.

[stealthwise]

The fact that every over the top corny moment was perfectly crafted by Veerhoven to show what he thought of the American Dream.

Really? It sounds like your ascribing perceived authorial intent to a movie that doesn't really seem like a crafted parody. Then again, I only watched the film once, several years ago.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Really? It sounds like your ascribing perceived authorial intent to a movie that doesn't really seem like a crafted parody. Then again, I only watched the film once, several years ago.

Well I don't think anyone else knew what was going on (especially not Elizabeth Berkley) but viewing the film as a crafter parody is the only way it fits into Veerhovens CV.

If not it's a really odd choice from him, as it's like nothing else he made.

(and come on, it's the story of a really trashy stipper wanting to rise above and become a dancer in nudie show in Vegas. It's got to be a satire.)

[stealthwise]

Well I don't think anyone else knew what was going on (especially not Elizabeth Berkley) but viewing the film as a crafter parody is the only way it fits into Veerhovens CV.

If not it's a really odd choice from him, as it's like nothing else he made.

(and come on, it's the story of a really trashy stipper wanting to rise above and become a dancer in nudie show in Vegas. It's got to be a satire.)

Hehe, I just assumed he wanted to cash in and make a quick buck.

I could see that film being made in about a week.

[JLarson]

Doom Patrol only lost me once - during that story where they got mixed up between two alien races at war with each other.


Wow, that's actually my favourite of his Doom Patrol stories, not including Flex. Some absolutely fucked up ideas in there about war and comedy and irony and so much more.

Loved The Filth more and more each reading... and I agree, lovely trade packaging.