Storm Question (Might be SPOILERS for some)

[the Hornet]

I really am deligted to see Cannonball back in the team and book. He was missed. But what's this I hear about Storm leaving Uncanny X-Men ? Any truth in it ?

[twilight]

I really am deligted to see Cannonball back in the team and book. He was missed. But what's this I hear about Storm leaving Uncanny X-Men ? Any truth in it ?

Yeah apparently she's leaving to go bump uglies with Black Panther in Wakanda.

[Beast]

Check House of M: The Day After for Storm's departure. :)

[the Hornet]

Gah! That sucks. I really hope Psylocke takes charge though. Hopefully Storm gets back soon.

[Beast]

I believe Nightcrawler is taking over leadership duties in Storm's wake.

[TheWolfOfAsgard]

I believe Nightcrawler is taking over leadership duties in Storm's wake.

Didn't Nightcrawler mess up the last time he was leader? Not doubting his abilities just trying to remember

[Dizzy D]

Didn't Nightcrawler mess up the last time he was leader? Not doubting his abilities just trying to remember

He was *very* succesful as a leader of Excalibur for about 125 issues, so that should count for something. The only one coming close on the uncanny team is Cannonball and he probably is still "too new" to have the other X-men accept him as a leader.

[TheWolfOfAsgard]

He was *very* succesful as a leader of Excalibur for about 125 issues, so that should count for something. The only one coming close on the uncanny team is Cannonball and he probably is still "too new" to have the other X-men accept him as a leader.


OK OK Calm down I wasn't trying to sully his good name. I just thought I remembered some problems he had when he was leader of one of the X-teams is all.

[Titan Slade]

Bishop led the X.S.E. in the future that he came from, so he would be a natural leader for the Uncanny team as well.

[Dizzy D]

OK OK Calm down I wasn't trying to sully his good name. I just thought I remembered some problems he had when he was leader of one of the X-teams is all.

No, that wasn't meant to be stressful. Just a bit of info.

[TheWolfOfAsgard]

No, that wasn't meant to be stressful. Just a bit of info.

I know dude I just forgot the smiley at the end.

[Dizzy D]

I know dude I just forgot the smiley at the end.

Yeah, I never use smilies, so I'm afraid that people may not get the tone of things I'm saying either. Hence clarification.

[TheWolfOfAsgard]

Yeah, I never use smilies, so I'm afraid that people may not get the tone of things I'm saying either. Hence clarification.


*smacks a laughing gas mask on Dizzy* Smile Dammit!



Oops here I go drifting the thread again.

[david r]

Didn't Nightcrawler mess up the last time he was leader? Not doubting his abilities just trying to remember

You must be thinking of around UXM #193, when Nightcrawler was team leader for a short time. Kurt did struggle with the task of team leader during a few issues there.

But that was 20 years ago. He really blossomed into the role during his Excalibur days and is a fine leader now.

[DDM]

Didn't Nightcrawler mess up the last time he was leader? Not doubting his abilities just trying to remember

Nightcrawler lead the X-Men in Storm's place when she took a temporary leave of absence to back to Africa for many months. He also lead Excalibur.

[Hi-Fi]

Oops here I go drifting the thread again.

It's a good thing that you know it. :evilsmile ;)

[TheWolfOfAsgard]

It's a good thing that you know it. :evilsmile ;)


Sometimes I need help. You always seem to fall for it too.:p

[Hi-Fi]

Sometimes I need help. You always seem to fall for it too.:p

No, i don't! :evilangry



So, yeah, Storm is leaving. And Nightcrawler is a perfect capable leader, Wolf. What were you thinking? :evilsmile

[TheWolfOfAsgard]

No, i don't! :evilangry



So, yeah, Storm is leaving. And Nightcrawler is a perfect capable leader, Wolf. What were you thinking? :evilsmile

I was thinking of a scene in one of the recent books (well maybe about a year ago or so) when Kurt is trying to priest and he was talking to Havok I think about he wasn't a good choice to lead a team. Like I said...I was just trying to remember if I had read that right...I wasn't saying he was a bad leader or even that I was remembering it correctly......:D

[Hi-Fi]

I was thinking of a scene in one of the recent books (well maybe about a year ago or so) when Kurt is trying to priest and he was talking to Havok I think about he wasn't a good choice to lead a team. Like I said...I was just trying to remember if I had read that right...I wasn't saying he was a bad leader or even that I was remembering it correctly......:D

Is that Austen? Cause i forced me to forget about all of his run. Although Casey was playing with the non-confident Kurt too.

[TheWolfOfAsgard]

Is that Austen? Cause i forced me to forget about all of his run. Although Casey was playing with the non-confident Kurt too.

I'm really thinking it was during that time. Seems it was about the time of that Holy War crap when they found Jubilee and the others crucified on the lawn.

[Kal]

I don't understand; will Storm be featured in the Blanck Panther comics? I hope she comes back and joins the Astonishing team. The mere thought of Storm spending time with King T'Challa makes my skin crawl. Ugh! :mad: :p

[Crimson]

I don't understand; will Storm be featured in the Blanck Panther comics? I hope she comes back and joins the Astonishing team. The mere thought of Storm spending time with King T'Challa makes my skin crawl. Ugh! :mad: :p

The solicits haven't mention anything... but who knows what will happen after the Storm mini guest staring BP?

[fishtaco]

Bishop led the X.S.E. in the future that he came from, so he would be a natural leader for the Uncanny team as well.No he didn't. Hecate was the leader of Xavier's Security Enforcers.

I strongly dislike Black Panther, and I dislike his relationship with Storm. I will totally pass on the Storm mini series, especially since Storm just had a mini series maybe 3 months ago.

[Titan Slade]

No he didn't. Hecate was the leader of Xavier's Security Enforcers.



Well I should have said field leader, like what Cyclops was for the X-Men under Xavier.

[fishtaco]

Well I should have said field leader, like what Cyclops was for the X-Men under Xavier.The X.S.E. was a huge organization. Bishop entered the XSE as a student/cadet, and eventually became the leader of the Omega Squad, which included himself, Malcolm, Shard (sort of), and Randall.

Back to Storm's upcoming (mis)adventure...

[Smarty Jones]

"I strongly dislike Black Panther, and I dislike his relationship with Storm. I will totally pass on the Storm mini series, especially since Storm just had a mini series maybe 3 months ago."

And why would you have a problem with Storm being in a relationship with The Black Panther? This is a relationship that actually makes sense.

[fishtaco]

And why would you have a problem with Storm being in a relationship with The Black Panther? This is a relationship that actually makes sense.What relationships has she had that did not make sense?

[Beast]

And why would you have a problem with Storm being in a relationship with The Black Panther? This is a relationship that actually makes sense.
Why? Cause they're both black characters? My, arn't we progressive. :rolleyes:

[Erik Lehnsherr]

What relationships has she had that did not make sense?

Just put her with current mutant traitor..Pietro Maximoff.

[TimGunn]

But the new Storm mini is written by someone from outside of comics. And as we all know, writers from outside of comics are far superior to anyone who has industry experience.

[Smarty Jones]

"What relationships has she had that did not make sense?"

Pretty much all of them (Wolverine, Forge, Slipstream, that flirtation with that alien in "X-Treme X-Men," etc.).

"Why? Cause they're both black characters? My, arn't we progressive. :rolleyes:"

No, because they are two characters with an established history since their younger years, common life interests and backgrounds. Not only that, Storm needs to get out of The X-Men; you're talking about a character who has been stagnant for 20 years in the X-ghetto.

[fishtaco]

Just put her with current mutant traitor..Pietro Maximoff.That never happened. Pretty much all of them (Wolverine, Forge, Slipstream, that flirtation with that alien in "X-Treme X-Men," etc.).I can accept the Slipstream one, but Khan, Forge, and Wolverine all make sense. I wouldnt even call it romance between Khan and Storm. That was...something different. Wolverine and Storm started to become a lot closer since they have been teammates for years and years. And Forge? How exactly does that not make sense? If Storm is to have a relationship today, I hope it's with Forge.No, because they are two characters with an established history since their younger years, common life interests and backgrounds. Not only that, Storm needs to get out of The X-Men; you're talking about a character who has been stagnant for 20 years in the X-ghetto.The Black Panther/Storm relationship is way too forced. Take a look at how Marvel is trying to sell this to us. There's no basis.

[Smarty Jones]

"I can accept the Slipstream one, but Khan, Forge, and Wolverine all make sense. I wouldnt even call it romance between Khan and Storm. That was...something different. Wolverine and Storm started to become a lot closer since they have been teammates for years and years. And Forge? How exactly does that not make sense? If Storm is to have a relationship today, I hope it's with Forge."

Storm and Wolverine have incredibly distinct personalities and goals; it's basically a huge ideology class if there ever was one.

I never saw how the Forge one made sense, considering how much she deeply resented that he was the cause of her losing her mutant abilities in the first place. What commonalities did they really share?

[Beast]

Pretty much all of them (Wolverine, Forge, Slipstream, that flirtation with that alien in "X-Treme X-Men," etc.).

[color=darkred][font=arial]No, because they are two characters with an established history since their younger years, common life interests and backgrounds.
Storm has always been written as someone who doesn't see color when it comes to people she cares about. She looks below the surface, to the person beneath. Hence why she's bisexual, because she sees the person before the sex or skin color. It's nice to see the world being more progressive, since it's no longer scandelous to have Captain Kurt mack on Lt. Uhura. ;)

And I'll disagree with you about how much they have in common. I don't recall BP's earliest years being spent in New York. And he certainly didn't run with theives in Cairo as a child after his parents died. And just because she was later seen as a goddess by some African tribes, doesn't even come close to T'Challa who was raised a Prince and became King as a child. Who went off to America and studied and returned and made Wakanda a great city. Just because they're both black doesn't mean their lives were similar.

[Beast]

Storm and Wolverine have incredibly distinct personalities and goals; it's basically a huge ideology class if there ever was one.

I never saw how the Forge one made sense, considering how much she deeply resented that he was the cause of her losing her mutant abilities in the first place. What commonalities did they really share?
Yeah, and as they say.... opposites attract. :D

And she wasn't aware that it was Forge's device that caused her to lose her powers at the time.

[Smarty Jones]

"The Black Panther/Storm relationship is way too forced. Take a look at how Marvel is trying to sell this to us. There's no basis."

How is it forced? You're talking about two characters who have known each other since they were teen-agers and even fought a villain together. Their personalities seem to match up very well, and it's not like Storm has not visited T'Challa in recent years (her appearance in Christopher Priest's "Black Panther 25-27" is arguably the most grounded I have seen the character in years).

More importantly, Storm needs to get out of The X-Men. She's arguably been in the team longer than any other character, and there has not been any progression in her development since the days of Barry Windsor Smith. She's ironically has become what The Black Panther was in the 1970s Avengers -- little more than wallpaper.

[Beast]

How is it forced? You're talking about two characters who have known each other since they were teen-agers and even fought a villain together. Their personalities seem to match up very well, and it's not like Storm has not visited T'Challa in recent years (her appearance in Christopher Priest's "Black Panther 25-27" is arguably the most grounded I have seen the character in years).

More importantly, Storm needs to get out of The X-Men. She's arguably been in the team longer than any other character, and there has not been any progression in her development since the days of Barry Windsor Smith. She's ironically has become what The Black Panther was in the 1970s Avengers -- little more than wallpaper.
I'm sure Storm visits a lot of people she's friends with. It's not like she's jetting down there to bump uglies with him. Especially considering how repulsive she seems of him and his 'bodyguards' in the recent arc they were in together. The relationship is horribly forced. Other than that one teenage encounter, they don't have all that much in common as people. As for saying she's nothing more than Wallpaper, I think that's rather silly, given how much focus she's been getting as of late in X-Treme and Uncanny.

[Smarty Jones]

"Hence why she's bisexual, because she sees the person before the sex or skin color."

I thought Forge, Wolverine, Slipstream and Khan -- not to mention Cable and Nightcrawler, with whom she had dalliances -- were all MEN after all these years!

So let me get this right, Storm is suddenly bisexual when it comes to black men? Even though she's never had a same-sex relationship?

"And I'll disagree with you about how much they have in common. I don't recall BP's earliest years being spent in New York. And he certainly didn't run with theives in Cairo as a child after his parents died."

Storm moved out of Harlem as an infant, first of all (we're not going to mention The Black Panther once worked as a teacher in Harlem).

Second, a young Ororo Munroe and a young T'Challa met in "Marvel Team-Up 100," in a flashback story. The two even fought in an adventure together. It was only a few years ago that Storm ran to T'Challa's side during his conflict with the Deviant Lemurians in "Black Panther 25-27."

Call it what you like, but it's not like T'Challa and Storm were suddenly thrown together and they don't have any common history.

The majority of white characters in the Marvel Universe date other white characters, however most minority characters are in interracial relationships.

That's not saying there cannot be interracial relationships, but at the same time it would be nice to actually SEE a black couple in comic books.

[Smarty Jones]

"I'm sure Storm visits a lot of people she's friends with. It's not like she's jetting down there to bump uglies with him. Especially considering how repulsive she seems of him and his 'bodyguards' in the recent arc they were in together."

But is that the writer's fault, because Storm didn't have problems with The Black Panther's bodyguards and other trappings in "Black Panther 25-27." She went to comfort him when Wakanda was on the verge of a war, when security was at its highest.

I do not know who wrote the book in question to which you are referring, but it sounds horribly inconsistent with what transpired in Christopher Priest's handling of Storm (and in fact, with a lot of depictions of Storm).

BTW, Storm's and T'Challa's meeting in the Priest run ended with the two exchanging a very long kiss.

"The relationship is horribly forced. Other than that one teenage encounter, they don't have all that much in common as people. As for saying she's nothing more than Wallpaper, I think that's rather silly, given how much focus she's been getting as of late in X-Treme and Uncanny."

That common bond evidently was reinforced when Storm visited Wakanda in "BP 25-27," as stated above.

It's the same Storm I've been reading for the past 20 years, one with the same character growth at the end of the Barry Windsor Smith days. Putting her as the leader of a group doesn't change anything.

[Beast]

I thought Forge, Wolverine, Slipstream Khan and her dalliances with Cable and Nightcrawler were all MEN after all these years!
Yukio and Callisto arn't men, unless you're trying to suggest a retcon. And remember her obsession with Kitty Pryde, and jealousy that Stevie Hunter was close to Kitty. And given that Storm's greatest desire was to be with Yukio years ago. It wasn't Black Panther or someone else, it was to be with this lovely Japanese woman. ;)
Storm moved out of Harlem as an infant, first of all (we're not going to mention The Black Panther once worked as a teacher in Harlem).

Second, a young Ororo Munroe and a young T'Challa met in "Marvel Team-Up 100," in a flashback story. The two even fought in an adventure together. It was only a few years ago that Storm ran to T'Challa's side during his conflict with the Deviant Lemurians in "Black Panther 25-27."

Call it what you like, but it's not like T'Challa and Storm were suddenly thrown together and they don't have any common history.
Teaching in Harlem and being an infant in Harlem are very very different. Unless T'Challa was teaching when he was still crapping his huggies. They had one adventure together as teenagers. They weren't high school sweethearts, and didn't remain together. Just because she paled around with him a couple times, hardly makes them soul mates that have to be together. It's forced and rather silly, just because they're black characters.
The majority of white characters in the Marvel Universe date other white characters, however most minority characters are in interracial relationships.

That's not say there cannot be interracial relationships, but at the same time it would be nice to actually SEE a black couple in comic books.
Only because your grouping all white characters into one lump, and not even bothing to consider their backgrounds. Other than the original five X-Men for example, most of the other X-Men are not WASPs. So you're the one that is lumping anyone who's white into one group, instead of seeing them as individual people, who arn't just cookie cutter 'whities'. Kitty's Jewish, Kurt's German, Piotr's Russian, Wolverine's Canadian.

[Beast]

BTW, Storm's and T'Challa's meeting in the Priest run ended with the two exchanging a very long kiss.
And one kiss means that she's bound eternally to this man? My, we certainly are progressive arn't we. Maybe Storm should throw away her entire life so she can dedicate it to Black Panther. She can stay barefoot and pregnant and rub his shoulders after a hard day of being written as a horrible stereotype by Reggie Hudlin. After all, she was willing to kiss him, so she clearly was ready to settle down with him and become his concubine.

[Smarty Jones]

"Yukio and Callisto arn't men, unless you're trying to suggest a retcon."

Show us one panel where Storm and Yukio were a couple.

Storm and Callisto? The same Callisto that Storm STABBED IN THE HEART? The same Callisto who had a romantic fling with Colossus?!? Please, show us the pictures.

"And remember her obsession with Kitty Pryde, and jealousy that Stevie Hunter was close to Kitty."

Yeah, it was a case of Storm trying to be a surrgoate mother figure to a teen-ager. Her competition Stevie Hunter was basically the "Butterfly McQueen" syndrome. I'm sorry, that's clearly not a case of Storm having repressed lesbian feelings.

"Teaching in Harlem and being an infant in Harlem are very very different. Unless T'Challa was teaching when he was still crapping his huggies. They had one adventure together as teenagers."

I was referring to your comment insinuating The Black Panther has never been to Harlem. I wasn't trying to say T'Challa knew Storm as infants.

I didn't say T'Challa and Storm were soulmates, either, just that they have an established history together -- years before he became an Avenger and years before she became an X-Man. We also know that based on what happened in "Marvel Team-Up 100" there was an attraction between them then, one that progressed in "Black Panther 25-27."

"Only because your grouping all white characters into one lump, and not even bothing to consider their backgrounds. Other than the original five X-Men for example, most of the other X-Men are not WASPs. So you're the one that is lumping anyone who's white into one group, instead of seeing them as individual people. Kitty's Jewish, Kurt's German, Piotr's Russian, Wolverine's Canadian.

Wolverine, Shadowcat, Nightcrawler and Colossus have different NATIONALITIES, but they all are CAUCASIAN.

But even then, my comments were not about them or even isolated on the other X-Men. I'm talking about comic book characters in general. The majority of white characters are in same-race relationships and most of the minority characters (black, Asian, Hispanic) are not.

Evidently, there is a problem with seeing minority couples in relationships. Seeing Storm with a loser such as Slipstream "makes my skin crawl" a lot more than seeing her with one of the most respected and powerful characters in the Marvel Universe -- who, BTW, happens to be black.

[Smarty Jones]

"And one kiss means that she's bound eternally to this man? My, we certainly are progressive arn't we. Maybe Storm should throw away her entire life so she can dedicate it to Black Panther."

That's funny, I recall the first Storm even mentioned Slipstream as a long interest. It was in a psychic conference with Jean Grey and it was totally unannounced, out of the blue.

As a matter of fact, pretty much all her relationships came out of the blue. Hell, at least there is a previous history showing that Storm and The Black Panther initially were attracted to each other -- and that book came out 26 years ago.

And the kiss between the two happened in Christopher Priest's run.

[Hi-Fi]

C'mon Beast! Show the image with Storm and Callisto and Yukio taking a bath together!

[Beast]

Sorry Smarty, Storm has always been written and accepted as bisexual. I'm not fabricating lies, that's how Claremont established her for the 17+ years that he wrote her. Times being as they were of course, you only get the vague hints of what's there. Storm was very very close to Yukio, and when offered her fondest wish it was shown to be with Yukio. And let us not forget Storm, Callisto, and Yukio in the hot tub together in Storm: Arena.

Claremont couldn't even confirm Mystique and Destiny's relationship on panel, but you can see it there. And there are hints to follow, if you're not closed minded and willing to look below the surface. Storm's the most widely accepted bisexual X-Man, even though the evidence isn't firmly established due to the times that she was written. It's honestly a shame, given that it shows how much more depth Storm has as a character. Oh well, blame the times. Gays and Lesbians weren't exactly accepted characters back then, unless they were cheap stereotypes. Either limp wristed lisping sissy boys, or flaming queens.

As for Storm's established history with T'Challa, she has a great deal more established history with Logan than she does with BP. So why is her established history with Logan leading to possible romance so very very wrong, but one meeting as teenagers and later as adults means that they have no right to be with other people. Marvel Team-Up #100 and BP #25-27 are 4 measely issues out of 40+ years of comics. Hardly something that means that this is the only one Storm can ever be with. She's been in tons of issues with Wolverine, so what's wrong with that? Oh, cause he's white... got it. Clearly if it's black it's beautiful, but if it's white it's offensive.

Storm doesn't see sexuality or skin color biased when she's with people. She's above that, has been from the beginning. And so what if the majority of minority characters are not with people of the same color. I thought we were trying to move above seeing skin color as a marker for where you shoud be and who you should date.

[Smarty Jones]

"C'mon Beast! Show the image with Storm and Callisto and Yukio taking a bath together!"

I would like to know on what is all this animosity is based about seeing Storm in a possible relationship with The Black Panther.

Even before Reggie Hudlin's hack job, people were up in arms about seeing these two together. During Christopher Priest's run, I remember comic book readers making such degrading comments about T'Challa. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't The Black Panther one of the most respected characters in Marvel?

Maybe some people like the incestuous nature of the X-characters being involved and related to each other, I don't know. But I would like to hear something, because it really sounds like it's all about race.

[Beast]

C'mon Beast! Show the image with Storm and Callisto and Yukio taking a bath together!
I would if I had a scan of it. That wild Storm, she loves the tentacle action. :D

[Smarty Jones]

Even if Storm was bisexual, how does it eliminate the possibility of seeing her with a black man?

I'm sorry, but I didn't get in arms about Storm dating people of other race. I didn't start making disparaging remarks about the integrity of the characters in question. Not Wolverine, not Forge, not Slipstream -- NONE OF THEM. Were you as upset then when Storm was put in a relationship with them?

I could understand if this was Rage, Night Thrasher, Triathlon or The Prowler that Storm allegedly is dating -- characters with whom she does not have a history. But that clearly is not the case. Storm's history is far longer with T'Challa than it was with Slipstream and certainly did not start off with the fundamental differences she had with Wolverine and Forge.

[Hi-Fi]

I personally don't like the pairing. But there was a time when i'd love to see Storm and Bishop teogether.

It's not the fact that BP is black. Its the fact that he's BP.

[Beast]

Even if Storm was bisexual, how does it eliminate the possibility of seeing her with a black man?
Ororo Munroe. Primary evidence here is X-Men Annual #11, where her heart's desire is to run off with Yukio. Supplementary to this is the fact that she completely turned her life around after running around with her for an evening (UXM #172-173), and Contest of Champions II #1, where Yukio and Storm meet again. If you buy the Storm and Yukio relationship, Yukio seems all for it. Otherwise Storm's relationship with Forge has been difficult, but over a long period of time. Again, she could be bisexual.

And that doesn't even mention the hot tub scene, which was all kinds of erotic in how it was drawn with some of Callisto's tentacles below the water. And it doesn't eliminate the possibility of seeing her with a black man. I'm all for characters being with whoever seems appropriate. Forcing Black Panther and Storm down our throats because they're both black is silly and unneccessary. At least if she would have gotten with Bishop there would have been some reason there, beyond just color and a small meeting as teens. :)

As for Black Panther, he's one of the most respected superheroes in the Marvel Universe? I hardly think so. Given that most of his attention is focused on his own country, and he's hardly out there doing good for the world at large. And given that he's sitting on cures for diseases that could help other countries, he's hardly noble or heroic. Seems more like he just doesn't give a crap about anyone outside his own little world.

[Smarty Jones]

I personally don't like the pairing. But there was a time when i'd love to see Storm and Bishop teogether. So there you go. ;)"

It makes sense by the fact there has been historical animosity on this board seeing Storm with The Black Panther, before you joined CBR.

I don't know on what this conclusion is being made about The Black Panther, since I don't know what you have read about T'Challa. But what I do know is that for whatever reason, his name brings up the most animosity even though historically (i.e. outside The X-Men) these two have been shown having a lot in common and a very good relationship.

[Sentinel K]

I just don't think Storm would go at all well with Black Panther.

Admittedly I haven't read much Black Panther material, but I really didn't like the character much.

Although I don't think they should be together, Storm and wolverine seems like a better match. They've known each other for years now and know each 0other so well.

From past X-men issues, I always thought Storm and Forge would have been great together. And later it seemed that maybe something might have happened with Bishop which would have been cool too.

I just don't see it between Ororo and T'challa.

But we'll see.

And that was my 2 cents! :D

[Smarty Jones]

"He's one of the most respected superheroes in the Marvel Universe? Heh, I hardly think so. Given that most of his attention is focused on his own country, and he's hardly out there doing good for the world at large. And given that he's sitting on cures for diseases that could help other countries, he's hardly noble or heroic. Seems more like he just doesn't give a crap."

I'm sorry, but that's Reggie Hudlin's poor retconning of T'Challa. The Black Panther historically has been one of the most respected superheroes in the Marvel Universe; the image Hudlin is painting is a horribly inaccurate and butchered portrayal of the character.

If that is the only exposure you have had of T'Challa, that's one thing. But this issue of Storm and T'Challa has been a heated issue on CBR way before that reboot.

As for the innuendo about Storm's bisexuality, that's a case of you reading a little too much into something. Even if it was true -- and unless it's clearly stated in a book that she is, and I see no reason why it would not be in an age where creators are graphically pushing the envelope -- it doesn't excuse the possibility of Storm dating a black man.

[Crimson]

I would if I had a scan of it. That wild Storm, she loves the tentacle action. :D

Was this the Storm arc in X-Treme X-Men by any chance?

That was a cool arc, although I loved most of X-Treme so I'm kinda biased.

[Smarty Jones]

"I just don't think Storm would go at all well with Black Panther.

Admittedly I haven't read much Black Panther material, but I really didn't like the character much.

Although I don't think they should be together, Storm and wolverine seems like a better match. They've known each other for years now and know each 0other so well.

From past X-men issues, I always thought Storm and Forge would have been great together. And later it seemed that maybe something might have happened with Bishop which would have been cool too.

I just don't see it between Ororo and T'challa.

But we'll see.

And that was my 2 cents! :D"

Then it makes it all the more clear that Storm needs to be removed from The X-Men. The incestuous and ghettocentric nature of that part of Marvel makes it hard for her to get development.

[atoningunifex]

I would like to know on what is all this animosity is based about seeing Storm in a possible relationship with The Black Panther.

Even before Reggie Hudlin's hack job, people were up in arms about seeing these two together. During Christopher Priest's run, I remember comic book readers making such degrading comments about T'Challa. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't The Black Panther one of the most respected characters in Marvel?

Maybe some people like the incestuous nature of the X-characters being involved and related to each other, I don't know. But I would like to hear something, because it really sounds like it's all about race.


I don't have any great animosity for it, but the timing of it and the method of it seem to be taking away from Storm's character.

Storm has long been one of the mainstays of the X-men and a team leader for much of her time with them. She is passionately concerned with human/mutant interaction and started the XSE in order to keep the world safe for both mutants and humans. The X-Men are her family and friends.

And now, at a time when the mutant world is reeling from the whole decimation thing and sentinels are camped outside the X-Mansion and her family and friands ahve been thrust into an amazingly difficult situation, Storm is abandoning them to fly off and be the Black Panther's girlfriend.

I don't actually give a good goddamn who she fucks, but I don't think the move works with the established portrayal of the character for the last five years.

Now I could end up being wrong about that. This could be part of some plan of hers to set up a mutant sanctuary or something. But it feels like it's more about the two of them hooking up.

[Sentinel K]

Then it makes it all the more clear that Storm needs to be removed from The X-Men. The incestuous and ghettocentric nature of that part of Marvel makes it hard for her to get development.

Whats wrong with her being with another mutant?

[Beast]

Was this the Storm arc in X-Treme X-Men by any chance?

That was a cool arc, although I loved most of X-Treme so I'm kinda biased.
Yeah, Storm: Arena. I loved X-Treme also, really need to dig it back out and read again.

And Smarty, they still won't allow confirmation of Mystique and Destiny's relationship, and Destiny's been pushing up daisies and decomposed in the ground for years. They're not going to let CC or anyone finally reveal bluntly on panel that Storm bats for both teams. :p

[Smarty Jones]

"I don't have any great animosity for it, but the timing of it and the method of it seem to be taking away from Storm's character.

Storm has long been one of the mainstays of the X-men and a team leader for much of her time with them. She is passionately concerned with human/mutant interaction and started the XSE in order to keep the world safe for both mutants and humans. The X-Men are her family and friends.

And now, at a time when the mutant world is reeling from the whole decimation thing and sentinels are camped outside the X-Mansion and her family and friands ahve been thrust into an amazingly difficult situation, Storm is abandoning them to fly off and be the Black Panther's girlfriend."

Given the sheer size of The X-Men family -- three teams, not to mention the various units of the X-Corporation -- Storm will be missed from a relational standpoint. However, it is time for Ororo Munroe to move away from The X-Men family. It also would give a chance for the numerous other characters to share a little more of the spotlight.

Considering that Wolverine is in both The X-Men (and to my recollection, two units) AND The Avengers, I don't see how Storm leaving is straining more credibility than what Logan is doing.

[Smarty Jones]

"Whats wrong with her being with another mutant?"

I didn't say I have a problem with Storm being with another mutant. I said Storm has been a confined and creatively stifled character, and such a change could be good for her character development.

I personally would like for Storm and some of the other characters to move out of the X-Men umbrella, particularly if it gives them a chance to develop.

"And Smarty, they still won't allow confirmation of Mystique and Destiny's relationship, and Destiny's been pushing up daisies and decomposed in the ground for years. They're not going to let CC or anyone finally reveal bluntly on panel that Storm bats for both teams. :p"

Why not? In an era where creators are using all types of shock value -- from graphic violence and mature content to salacious sexuality -- I can see Storm's revelation actually as being tame.

If you can see that Storm being in a hot tub with two women as a veiled inference to lesbianism, then what do you say about most minority characters in comic books not being in relationships with people of the same race?

[Beast]

Cause it seems like she just doesn't care.

Storm: "Oh, 96% of the world's mutant population has lost their powers!? Times are stressful for humans and mutants alike. It's time to pull together to form a united front and try to keep things from getting worse out there. Hmmm, what should I do. Well, Black Panther's cute, maybe I'll stay in Africa and not care about my family at home. Tee Hee."

[Smarty Jones]

"Storm: 'Oh, 96% of the world's mutant population has lost their powers!? Times are stressful for humans and mutants alike. It's time to pull together to form a united front and try to keep things from getting worse out there. Hmmm, what should I do. Well, Black Panther's cute, maybe I'll stay in Africa and not care about my family at home. Tee Hee.'"

It doesn't seem to be an issue with Charles Xavier, and it's his cause. Last I understood, Professor X is among the missing and there are a slew of X-Men and associates who can march on.

Evidently, you have an issue with how it was explained that Storm was leaving. I personally don't see why that has to be a burden placed solely on her back. How many X-Men have left the team after major storylines in the past?

[Uncle Nobs]

I think the reason why many fans have reacted badly to the Ororo/T'Challa pairing is actually fairly innocent--and even kind of respectable. It's not so much that fans don't want to see her paired with a black man. It's more that fans fear that she is being paired with a black man just because she's black. To me, that seems like an enlightened view (not necessarily the correct view, but enlightened) and certainly not racist.

However, I agree with you that many fans aren't looking at the characters and asking themselves honestly if these two would be drawn to each other. I think they would. They have similar backgrounds. They are children of Africa who have grown into citizens of the world entire. Each sees him-/herself as being a ruler, a maker of the world, someone who actively forges the future by getting their hands dirty and getting things DONE.

But the other problem that fans have with this pairing is that it is very clearly editorially driven. We are seeing their romance bloom in several books, all by different writers, all released strategically. Worse, their childhood friendship was retconned into existence. It feels forced--but only due to the approach, not due to the characters themselves.

I need to pick up the Christopher Priest story Smarty referenced. I LOVE Priest and I'd like to see this relationship handled as more than an editorial mandate.

And you know what? It probably does help that they're both black. I know it makes some of us nervous that that might appear to some people to be the ONLY reason they are together, but we need to trust that readers would see more than just that.

Storm is known for breaking boundaries. Politically, she reaches across race & species boundaries. Sexually, she reaches across race & gender boundaries. (She is bisexual. It is documented in comics and in interviews with Claremont. Of course the comics can only hint at it, just as they have only hinted at Destiny & Mystique's relationship. The industry still fears the torch- & pitchfork-wielding mobs.)

But still, it's okay for her to be drawn to an extremely strong, regal, responsible, black, African man. For all her growth, it is okay for her to be drawn to her roots.

I only wish it hadn't been editorially forced and retconned into canon. I wish she had first met him now, as they are both at the peaks of their careers, trying to create balance when things are the most unsteady. I would love for them to be just blown away by each other, drawn to each other unexpectedly, wondering why they had never met before, trying not to get involved because a romantic entanglement is the last thing either of them needs, but unable to stay away.

[atoningunifex]

Given the sheer size of The X-Men family -- three teams, not to mention the various units of the X-Corporation -- Storm will be missed from a relational standpoint. However, it is time for Ororo Munroe to move away from The X-Men family. It also would give a chance for the numerous other characters to share a little more of the spotlight.

Considering that Wolverine is in both The X-Men (and to my recollection, two units) AND The Avengers, I don't see how Storm leaving is straining more credibility than what Logan is doing.

Well, Logan is in every book. Storm was in Uncanny and now she's not. She's left the mansion and the team. As I understood it she's coming back for three issues and then leaving pretty much for good.

As for it being time to move her away from the X-Men books- that's a judgement call. I'm pretty much through with the X-Books again anyway, so I'm not super worked up over it. But Ororo leaving in the middle of a crisis like this really puts a bit of tarnish on the character. it's akin to Cyclops leaving Maddie and the kid to go hang out with Jean at the beginning of X-Factor. It's one of those "huh what?" moments for a character. I'm all for character growth and change. But I think the transition from book to book could be handled better.

I'm not saying that there isn't room to expand her outside the X-Universe. I think one of her strengths as a character is that she has an active circle of firends and acquaintances outside the team. And this is Marvel, it isn't like this is going to last forever. I just think the timing of it is off in regards to her character.

[Brian M.]

It doesn't seem to be an issue with Charles Xavier, and it's his cause. Last I understood, Professor X is among the missing and there are a slew of X-Men and associates who can march on.

Evidently, you have an issue with how it was explained that Storm was leaving. I personally don't see why that has to be a burden placed solely on her back. How many X-Men have left the team after major storylines in the past?

But they never left after a crisis like this. It was always "ooooh the mansion is destroyed and nothing is left". This time there are about 200 mutants left. This is something they've never faced. Storm is suppose to be a leader yet she had cut and run several times, forming the Xtreme X-Men and just now she just up and leaves when something happens she does like.

[Uncle Nobs]

It doesn't seem to be an issue with Charles Xavier, and it's his cause. Last I understood, Professor X is among the missing and there are a slew of X-Men and associates who can march on.

Evidently, you have an issue with how it was explained that Storm was leaving. I personally don't see why that has to be a burden placed solely on her back. How many X-Men have left the team after major storylines in the past?
Yeah, but the last several years (specifically in X-Treme) have set her up as a new kind of leader. She rebelled against Xavier. She created the XSE. She is creating her own plans, her own allies, her own new world.

It does seem dumb for her to run off now. I could only believe it as a shock reaction, as if the whole Decimation thing has reminded her of when she lost her powers and her only response is to escape. Still, I thought she would face problems like this head-on. She has grown a lot since the days when she lost her powers.

[Titan76]

Then it makes it all the more clear that Storm needs to be removed from The X-Men. The incestuous and ghettocentric nature of that part of Marvel makes it hard for her to get development.
Why does an X-man always have to be the one who has to leave? Storm has a very long relationship with the X-men, they are her friends, family, and she is their number 2 leader. If you think Storm should leave the X-men how about Iron Man, the Wasp or hell why not even Captain America leaving the Avenger book to get better exposure and more development in the X-books?

The X-books deal more with race then any other Marvel or DC book does anyway. Did you forget that Angel had dated and was in love with a black woman and Iceman with an asian? I for one don't have nothing against seeing more black with black, asian with asian, mexican with mexican or white with whatever as long as it makes sense and is well writen. So far BP and Storm doesn't really make sense to me but neither does the Scott and Emma relationship. If Marvel took more time to set things up for Storm and BP and if it was a right time for Storm to leave the X-men I wouldn't have a problem with this. I think Bishop and Storm would be better right now then Storm and BP but that's just me.

[Beast]

Yeah, but the last several years (specifically in X-Treme) have set her up as a new kind of leader. She rebelled against Xavier. She created the XSE. She is creating her own plans, her own allies, her own new world.

It does seem dumb for her to run off now. I could only believe it as a shock reaction, as if the whole Decimation thing has reminded her of when she lost her powers and her only response is to escape. Still, I thought she would face problems like this head-on. She has grown a lot since the days when she lost her powers.
Exactly. She's grown so much since then. And it's like they're trying to turn back the clock to a point where she didn't have such close ties to the X-Men. This is a massive time of crisis, and for her to just leave like that with no real goodbye seems forced. Well, of course it does... it's editorial forced. Hopefully when Storm appears during the next Uncanny arc, she makes her departure at least seem to make sense. If not, it seems like she's abandoning her friends and family at a time when they need competant leaders the most.

[Smarty Jones]

"But the other problem that fans have with this pairing is that it is very clearly editorially driven. We are seeing their romance bloom in several books, all by different writers, all released strategically. Worse, their childhood friendship was retconned into existence. It feels forced--but only due to the approach, not due to the characters themselves."

The Black Panther's and Storm's first meeting was shown in a flashback story in 1979 (three years after Storm was created), so it's not like something that just turned up.

Also, it's hard to call it a retcon when it didn't correct any previous material, because nothing about Storm's past was explained when "Marvel Team-Up 100" happened. New material that doesn't contradict anything does not sound like a retcon to me.

"But they never left after a crisis like this. It was always 'ooooh the mansion is destroyed and nothing is left.' This time there are about 200 mutants left. This is something they've never faced. Storm is suppose to be a leader yet she had cut and run several times, forming the Xtreme X-Men and just now she just up and leaves when something happens she does like."

The X-Men always have had major events where key members left and still were resilient. Charles Xavier was arrested for his role in "Onslaught" and taken away, while mutants were hunted down. Jean Grey left the team for a short time after "The Twelve," and Xavier leaves the planet to train mutant Skrulls. And so on and so on.

The X-Men have plenty of members and associates, so Storm is hardly leaving them to hang out to dry.

[Smarty Jones]

"As for it being time to move her away from the X-Men books- that's a judgement call. I'm pretty much through with the X-Books again anyway, so I'm not super worked up over it. But Ororo leaving in the middle of a crisis like this really puts a bit of tarnish on the character. it's akin to Cyclops leaving Maddie and the kid to go hang out with Jean at the beginning of X-Factor. It's one of those 'huh what?' moments for a character. I'm all for character growth and change. But I think the transition from book to book could be handled better."

C'mon, Cyclops leaving his wife and son because his ex-lover comes back from the dead is a lot different than a member of a paramilitary superhuman team leaving a group that has numerous resources.

Like you said, there was a transition with Storm leaving, coming back for a short time and then leaving again. Once again, we've got a character who is hardly doing something unprecedented in X-Men history. She left the team to recharge her battery after a major event -- the same thing characters like Cyclops, Jean Grey and Professor Xavier have done.

[Blackcat]

Many times a major xcharacter did leave the team: Storm did before, as did Rogue for two times, Cyclops and Jean did, Xavier did, etc etc. So the can take a break and I would do the same. Saving the world time after time is a making you very stressfull sometimes. What do you think after a long time of stress: I need a break. So don't be pissed if an X-Men want's a break too.

[Smarty Jones]

"Why does an X-man always have to be the one who has to leave? Storm has a very long relationship with the X-men, they are her friends, family, and she is their number 2 leader. If you think Storm should leave the X-men how about Iron Man, the Wasp or hell why not even Captain America leaving the Avenger book to get better exposure and more development in the X-books?"

At the same time, from an editorial standpoint, why have all the X-characters hogged up in one corner of the universe? The X-universe is too congested, with some otherwise good characters stuck in limbo or underdeveloped because of Marvel policy.

If anything, Storm's leaving could allow some other characters to shine. More importantly, some creators could use some characters they wanted to use but felt obligated to keep a Storm in the book. There have been several creators who seemed indifferent in using Storm, but had to use her.

The Avengers have had major stories where Captain America, Iron Man and The Wasp have left the teams for periods. The Wasp isn't on the team now, and Cap and Iron Man definitely have left for personal reasons. Also, Cap and Iron Man have solo books to where their stars can shine even more -- Storm is stuck in a rut that seemingly requires Wolverine to be seen in every book, among with the normal constraints.

"The X-books deal more with race then any other Marvel or DC book does anyway. Did you forget that Angel had dated and was in love with a black woman and Iceman with an asian?"

No, it merely illustrates my point about minority characters and their relationships in comics.

[Beast]

Many times a major xcharacter did leave the team: Storm did before, as did Rogue for two times, Cyclops and Jean did, Xavier did, etc etc. So the can take a break and I would do the same. Saving the world time after time is a making you very stressfull sometimes. What do you think after a long time of stress: I need a break. So don't be pissed if an X-Men want's a break too.
Yeah, but she's not taking a break because of something like that. She's taking a break due to Editorial Mandate. When everything about her character says that she'd be there for her friends and family. Those other examples you're talking about are mostly personal crisises or a more important purpose. Storm has neither of these going for her right now. Her leaving is out of character on a profound level.

[Smarty Jones]

"It does seem dumb for her to run off now. I could only believe it as a shock reaction, as if the whole Decimation thing has reminded her of when she lost her powers and her only response is to escape. Still, I thought she would face problems like this head-on. She has grown a lot since the days when she lost her powers."

And Charles Xavier has left his charges numerous times after a major event. So has Cyclops, Wolverine and Jean Grey -- and I don't recall The X-Men folding shop when they left. If anything, The X-Men have more resources and associates than ever before. Why can't Storm take a break?

[Crimson]

And Charles Xavier has left his charges numerous times after a major event. So has Cyclops, Wolverine and Jean Grey -- and I don't recall The X-Men folding shop when they left. If anything, The X-Men have more resources and associates than ever before. Why can't Storm take a break?

What major event?

Storm said she was leaving in Black Panther #9... which was before HoM.

[Smarty Jones]

"Yeah, but she's not taking a break because of something like that. She's taking a break due to Editorial Mandate."

All characters who have left teams after major events leave because of editorial mandate. I don't care if it's Wolverine, Cyclops, Professor Xavier, Captain America, Iron Man -- a creator made the decision with editorial approval to make the move.

Again, why is this a negative issue concerning Storm?

[Smarty Jones]

"What major event?

Storm said she was leaving in Black Panther #9... which was before HoM."

Which makes this argument even more silly, then, because it wasn't like Storm was an X-Man when "House of M" started, right?

When do you all feel if there EVER would be a time where Storm could leave The X-Men?

[Crimson]

Which makes this argument even more silly, then, because it wasn't like Storm was an X-Man when "House of M" started, right?

When do you all feel if there EVER would be a time where Storm could leave The X-Men?

I would of been more happy if Storm has left for some reason cause of HoM... but the first time it was mentioned it was because Storm had just spent 4 issues running around flirting and kissing BP and then announced she was staying (Although she didn't seem to tell Cyclops and she seemed to have changed her reason come HoM: The Day After).

[Smarty Jones]

"I would of been more happy if Storm has left for some reason cause of HoM... but the first time it was mentioned it was because Storm had just spent 4 issues running around flirting and kissing BP and then announced she was staying."

So, let me get this right:

Storm leaves The X-Men, because she got involved with a character.

She leaves before a major storyline happens.

And now some people are mad because she won't leave what she is doing and join The X-Men in yet another obligatory "crisis for mutants" -- even though X-Men have left the team in the past BECAUSE OF that crisis?

[Crimson]

So, let me get this right:

Storm leaves The X-Men, because she got involved with a character.

She leaves before a major storyline happens.

And now some people are mad because she won't leave what she is doing and join The X-Men in yet another obligatory "crisis for mutants" -- even though X-Men have left the team in the past BECAUSE OF that crisis?

It does seem a bit out of character that Storm wouldn't leave frolicking with Black Panther to come home and help her friends (Almost her family) in a great time of need.

Although to be honest with Marvel time line I'm not sure what is her reason for staying. We've got two... one from Hudlin and one from Claremont.

[Titan76]

[QUOTE=Smarty Jones]At the same time, from an editorial standpoint, why have all the X-characters hogged up in one corner of the universe? The X-universe is too congested, with some otherwise good characters stuck in limbo or underdeveloped because of Marvel policy.
The X-universe is too big right now for any other character to have their own book and right now with the mutant population under 200 people WORLDWIDE Storm is most need in the X-books. After this event is taken care of then and things get back to normal then that's fine but right now she should not be leaving.
If anything, Storm's leaving could allow some other characters to shine. More importantly, some creators could use some characters they wanted to use but felt obligated to keep a Storm in the book. There have been several creators who seemed indifferent in using Storm, but had to use her.
Storm shine really big under Claremont's first run in Uncanny and the fact that she wasn't given a solo title is on Marvel. Many of us would have love to see Storm get her own book but first Marvel needs to axe some other X-books because there are already too many.
The Avengers have had major stories where Captain America, Iron Man and [QUOTE]The Wasp have left the teams for periods. The Wasp isn't on the team now, and Cap and Iron Man definitely have left for personal reasons.
No, Cap and Iron Man have not left the team. Have you not seen the new Avenger line up? Why can't one of them come to the X-books or any other Avenger since it always has to be an X-man? The X-men is Marvel main book not the Avengers.
Also, Cap and Iron Man have solo books to where their stars can shine even more -- Storm is stuck in a rut that seemingly requires Wolverine to be seen in every book, among with the normal constraints.
Other X-men have had their own books as well Gambit, Bashiop, Rogue, and Nightcrawler but were axe because of there being too many X-books to buy so they didn't sell well.

No, it merely illustrates my point about minority characters and their relationships in comics.
No offense, but maybe then you should take this problem you have about this to Marvel rather here. Nobody here is against minority relationships that I have seen, we are just against reationships to us that seem force and don't make much sense no matter what their race is(I think Scott and Emma's relationship is the worse and most force one in comics right now). I for one would also like to see more minority relationships so long as they are done right, make sense, and don't seem force. And this goes for any relationship.

[Uncle Nobs]

The Black Panther's and Storm's first meeting was shown in a flashback story in 1979 (three years after Storm was created), so it's not like something that just turned up.
I did not know that. Y'learn sumpin' new everyday. I'd assumed that was a recent story. Wasn't there a more recent issue of MTU or a similar title where they did a flashback story?

Anyway, that certainly puts a new spin on things for me. I wonder why it was ignored for so long...?

[Titan76]

So, let me get this right:

Storm leaves The X-Men, because she got involved with a character.

She leaves before a major storyline happens.

And now some people are mad because she won't leave what she is doing and join The X-Men in yet another obligatory "crisis for mutants" -- even though X-Men have left the team in the past BECAUSE OF that crisis?
Because its like saying that Captain America won't go to World War 3 because he wants to stay at home with his girlfriend. This Crisis is not like any other major Event that has happen to the X-men. Their RACE is down to about less then 200 mutants(it hasn't never been this low since the Stan Lee days) and they need her now more then ever. If she was to go back to BP after this was over then okay, but to say to the X-men you are not important to me right now BP is, is stuiped to me.

[Smarty Jones]

"The X-universe is too big right now for any other character to have their own book and right now with the mutant population under 200 people WORLDWIDE Storm is most need in the X-books. After this event is taken care of then and things get back to normal then that's fine but right now she should not be leaving."

I disagree that Storm is needed in a world where there are three X-Men teams and The X-Corporation, which essentially mimics what The X-Men did. There are still too many blasted characters in the X-Universe, to the point where a lot of characters were killed off or put in limbo simply because Marvel did not want the X-editors to share their toys.

"Storm shine really big under Claremont's first run in Uncanny and the fact that she wasn't given a solo title is on Marvel. Many of us would have love to see Storm get her own book but first Marvel needs to axe some other X-books because there are already too many."

Chris Claremont's initial run on "Uncanny X-Men" started in the 1970s, though. Storm essentially has been the same character since the mid-1980s.

I don't understand the logic of wanting Storm to have a solo book when you don't want her to leave the X-ghetto. I personally would not want to read another book that's going to be X-Men related.

"No, Cap and Iron Man have not left the team. Have you not seen the new Avenger line up?"

Captain America and Iron Man have left The Avengers in the past, and for extended periods. Storm has been an X-Man in some or fashion nearly non-stop for 30 years. If the two signature characters associated with The Avengers can afford to take a break from the team, why can't arguably The X-Men's sixth most important character?

"No offense, but maybe then you should take this problem you have about this to Marvel rather here. Nobody here is against minority relationships that I have seen, we are just against reationships to us that seem force and don't make much sense no matter what their race is(I think Scott and Emma's relationship is the worse and most force one in comics right now)."

All comic book relationships are the result of what the creators want to do, though. That part is not different whether it's a same-race couple or a minority couple. However, I find it interesting these "forced" comments only come up when it's the discussion of minority couples.

That's sounds like an issue with the readers than with the creators.

[Tre Styles]

I think the reason why many fans have reacted badly to the Ororo/T'Challa pairing is actually fairly innocent--and even kind of respectable. It's not so much that fans don't want to see her paired with a black man. It's more that fans fear that she is being paired with a black man just because she's black. To me, that seems like an enlightened view (not necessarily the correct view, but enlightened) and certainly not racist.

However, I agree with you that many fans aren't looking at the characters and asking themselves honestly if these two would be drawn to each other. I think they would. They have similar backgrounds. They are children of Africa who have grown into citizens of the world entire. Each sees him-/herself as being a ruler, a maker of the world, someone who actively forges the future by getting their hands dirty and getting things DONE.

But the other problem that fans have with this pairing is that it is very clearly editorially driven. We are seeing their romance bloom in several books, all by different writers, all released strategically. Worse, their childhood friendship was retconned into existence. It feels forced--but only due to the approach, not due to the characters themselves.

I need to pick up the Christopher Priest story Smarty referenced. I LOVE Priest and I'd like to see this relationship handled as more than an editorial mandate.

And you know what? It probably does help that they're both black. I know it makes some of us nervous that that might appear to some people to be the ONLY reason they are together, but we need to trust that readers would see more than just that.

Storm is known for breaking boundaries. Politically, she reaches across race & species boundaries. Sexually, she reaches across race & gender boundaries. (She is bisexual. It is documented in comics and in interviews with Claremont. Of course the comics can only hint at it, just as they have only hinted at Destiny & Mystique's relationship. The industry still fears the torch- & pitchfork-wielding mobs.)

But still, it's okay for her to be drawn to an extremely strong, regal, responsible, black, African man. For all her growth, it is okay for her to be drawn to her roots.

I only wish it hadn't been editorially forced and retconned into canon. I wish she had first met him now, as they are both at the peaks of their careers, trying to create balance when things are the most unsteady. I would love for them to be just blown away by each other, drawn to each other unexpectedly, wondering why they had never met before, trying not to get involved because a romantic entanglement is the last thing either of them needs, but unable to stay away.

Exactly. Y'all need to listen to Uncle Nobs.... ;)

[Smarty Jones]

"I did not know that. Y'learn sumpin' new everyday. I'd assumed that was a recent story. Wasn't there a more recent issue of MTU or a similar title where they did a flashback story?

Anyway, that certainly puts a new spin on things for me. I wonder why it was ignored for so long...?"

The Black Panther-Storm story in "Marvel Team-Up 100" was the back story of the first appearance of the mutant Karma, who teamed up with The Fantastic Four to stop her evil twin. The book came out some time in 1979.

The Black Panther spent the entire 1980s in limbo and given the insular nature of The X-Men, I imagine that's why that particular footnote is being overlooked.

I recommend getting your hands on "Black Panther 25-27" written by Christopher Priest. It touches on their first meeting, and shows even as children there was a more than a passing flirtation.

[Smarty Jones]

"Because its like saying that Captain America won't go to World War 3 because he wants to stay at home with his girlfriend. This Crisis is not like any other major Event that has happen to the X-men. Their RACE is down to about less then 200 mutants(it hasn't never been this low since the Stan Lee days) and they need her now more then ever."

Really, what makes The X-Men NEED Storm more than ever? They have more members than ever and more allies than ever.

There are no major threats in the X-universe. Magneto has no powers. Apocalypse is still dead. Mister Sinister has not been a player for years. The Juggernaut and Emma Frost are X-MEN, for goodness sakes!

No, what would be silly is to establish the fact that Storm leaves The X-Men because she is in a committed relationship and then dump the relationship at the first sign of trouble. How well do you think that would go over with someone who was a member of The Avengers?

"Sorry, but there are fewer mutants. I know it's OK for Professor Xavier, Wolverine, Cyclops and Jean Grey to leave the team after a crisis, but I'm obligated to join them even though I left the team knowing that this could happen. For some reason, more is expected of me than for the other ones."

[Titan76]

[QUOTE=Smarty Jones]I disagree that Storm is needed in a world where there are three X-Men teams and The X-Corporation, which essentially mimics what The X-Men did.
X-Corporation is no longer around since there are only 200 mutants left in the world. And Storm is needed right now because she is the X-men's number 2 leader and besides Cyclops, Xavier, Jean, and maybe Emma she is one of their most important members and since Xavier and Jean are gone she is really needed.
There are still too many blasted characters in the X-Universe, to the point where a lot of characters were killed off or put in limbo simply because Marvel did not want the X-editors to share their toys.
Oh yeah and there is a small total number of Avengers.:rolleyes: I do think the X-men need to get out of their book more but so do the Avengers.


Chris Claremont's initial run on "Uncanny X-Men" started in the 1970s, though. Storm essentially has been the same character since the mid-1980s.
His initial run lasted until 1994 and when it comes to saying that a character has been the same person for years this would more likely apply to almost every character in comics.
I don't understand the logic of wanting Storm to have a solo book when you don't want her to leave the X-ghetto. I personally would not want to read another book that's going to be X-Men related.
The same reason Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America have a solo and don't really ever leave the Avenger-ghetto.


Captain America and Iron Man have left The Avengers in the past, and for extended periods. Storm has been an X-Man in some or fashion nearly non-stop for 30 years. If the two signature characters associated with The Avengers can afford to take a break from the team, why can't arguably The X-Men's sixth most important character?
Storm has also left the X-men in the past as well. Infact I think she has left the X-men 2 or 3 times to do personal things, one lasted for about 1 or two our time. Captain America I don't think has left the Avengers for a long period of time, though I may be wrong.

However, I find it interesting these "forced" comments only come up when it's the discussion of minority couples.
Name some other couples please? And I guess you didn't see my comment about Scott and Emma being the most forced couple right now both whom are white.
That's sounds like an issue with the readers than with the creators.[/color][/font]
No its not, I don't care about race and would like to see more minority couples in comic books but I don't want to see a force couple no matter what the race is. Storm and BP could work right if its done right and I will be glad if that happens but right now I don't see them as a couple but that could change. Like I said earlier I think Storm and Bashiop should have gotton together not Storm and BP.

[Tre Styles]

Okay, I just re-read the scene in the Decimation One Shot on Storm leaving.....It never, ever states that she's "abandoning" the team. As a matter of fact, she asks for HER part of the X-Team to come with her to Africa. Scott refuses that idea.Storm disagrees and says that this event(Decimation) is GLOBAL, and the concerns in Africa, the needs there are just as great. She also suggests that she DOES need her time and space, but at the same time gathering all the X-Men in one place doesn't make sense to her. She says that they need to become pro-active. Cyclops says "it's his call", to which Ororo says it's better that since she disagrees with him and the team needs to have confidence in its leaders, that it is truly better for her to stay away, rather than causing a conflict within the team. She rather not undermine his(and Emma's) authority in front of the others.
This shows a level of maturity on Storm's part, and also shows that she respects andcares more about the X-Men as a whole and functioning unit. She also tells Cyke that he knows how to reach her in case they need her.....so in re-reading this page, I see nothing of her actually "abandoning" the X-Men. It's another case of Cyke and Emma doing what they THINk is right, and the same with Ororo. Cyke could've sent Ororo's squad or what have you down where she was, but he didn't. Is it his pride? Is it his ignornance? Is it Emma controlling him? Who knows. They shouldn't all be clustered together in one spot. You can see what's happening with the Sentinels already. Everyone already knows where to look. The school is going to constantly be under attack. I think Ororo made a lot of sense. But even with all this said....she is more than likely being written out of the X-Men for the time being because the current writers don't have any use for her OR there is something bigger being planned with her.

[Titan76]

Really, what makes The X-Men NEED Storm more than ever? They have more members than ever and more allies than ever.
Because Storm is right now their number 2 person and they need her leadership skills which all them X-men don't have and what makes you think they have more allies then ever? Please explain this too me. Are the Avengers and FF going to help the X-men with the Sentials coming to destory their race and the gov. trying to maybe get rid of the rest or the mutants like the writers at Marvel had said might happen.
There are no major threats in the X-universe.
You havn't then been reading the X-men. They have a lot of major threats going on right now like the one in Deadly Gensis, the HoM after affect and what will be going on in Astonishing.
Magneto has no powers. Apocalypse is still dead. Mister Sinister has not been a player for years. The Juggernaut and Emma Frost are X-MEN, for goodness sakes!
Apocalypse is alive again and Sinister and Apocalypse will both be back in the X-books next year. Plus the Hellfire club is back too. Just because Magneto is powerless doesn't he won't do nothing, he is one of the smartest man on the planet(not like Reed or Doom) and can come up with other ways to fight his war if that's what he is going to still be doing.

No, what would be silly is to establish the fact that Storm leaves The X-Men because she is in a committed relationship and then dump the relationship at the first sign of trouble. How well do you think that would go over with someone who was a member of The Avengers?
You mean like Iron Man's relationships he has had in the past? And this isn't a just an everyday problem the X-men face, the race is right now fighting for their surivial because there are only less then 200 of them left and humans want the rest of them dead and Storm wants no part in it, doesn't make much sense to me.

"Sorry, but there are fewer mutants. I know it's OK for Professor Xavier, Wolverine, Cyclops and Jean Grey to leave the team after a crisis, but I'm obligated to join them even though I left the team knowing that this could happen. For some reason, more is expected of me than for the other ones."
Wolverine is not a team leader, big difference. Jean and Cyclops left because he almost die and needed time to heal but once the X-men call them up they came back. Then X-men thought Cyclops died and Jean needed some time off and then came back, way different from what's Storm doing. Xavier has always left the X-men but they always had their leaders their(Cyclops, Jean, Storm) to take care of things and no one really care if Xavier comes back or not on this board(I think). Also I have already have said Storm has left the X-men before like Cyclops, Jean, Wolverine, Xavier all have had, so where are you going with this?

[Smarty Jones]

"X-Corporation is no longer around since there are only 200 mutants left in the world. And Storm is needed right now because she is the X-men's number 2 leader and besides Cyclops, Xavier, Jean, and maybe Emma she is one of their most important members and since Xavier and Jean are gone she is really needed."

The X-Men are a group of grizzled veterans, featuring the likes of Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Colossus, Bishop, Havok and Psylocke. This ship is hardly rudderless. Jean Grey has been dead for a few years and Professor Xavier was living on Genosha for some time, apart from the team.

"Oh yeah and there is a small total number of Avengers.:rolleyes: I do think the X-men need to get out of their book more but so do the Avengers."

Since The Avengers essentially was disbanded and became Brian Michael Bendis' favorite pets, there is a reason why Wonder Man, The Vision, etc. are not members. Conversely, there is no logical reason some X-Men and villains have been on the shelf for a long period, especially since there are three X-Men books on the shelf.

"The same reason Iron Man, Thor, and Captain America have a solo and don't really ever leave the Avenger-ghetto."

Captain America, Iron Man and Thor have established adventures outside of The Avengers. Occasionally their worlds have crept over into The Avengers', but their issues mostly are separate from The Avengers.

Meanwhile, Storm is defined by The X-Men. The character really has no definition or distinction outside of being an X-Man. Wolverine is the only X-Man who has some sort of identity beyond The X-Men, but even that is overexposed.

"Storm has also left the X-men in the past as well. Infact I think she has left the X-men 2 or 3 times to do personal things, one lasted for about 1 or two our time. Captain America I don't think has left the Avengers for a long period of time, though I may be wrong."

This is truly the first time Storm has taken a break from The X-Men, and potentially would not be a presence. She even led the team during the period where she lost her powers and during her period of soul-searching in "Lifepath," Storm was seen as a presence in the X-books.

"Name some other couples please? And I guess you didn't see my comment about Scott and Emma being the most forced couple right now both whom are white."

Characters date in comic books because of editorial dictation; these are fictional characters who are given their motivations by other people. These are NOT real people, so editors can make anyone theoretically be a couple.

Throughout comic book history, there have been characters who were created specifically to be love interests (see Mary Jane Watson, Lois Lane) and all characters' dating patterns are the result of what the creators want. What you may call "forced" is really more how you feel with what precision that creator handled it.

Again, I don't know to what you are referencing concerning Storm and The Black Panther, but books like "Marvel Team-Up 100" and "Black Panther 25-27" showed that the creators showed how plausible it could be for these characters to get together.

[Tennoarashi]

Again, I don't know to what you are referencing concerning Storm and The Black Panther, but books like "Marvel Team-Up 100" and "Black Panther 25-27" showed that the creators showed how plausible it could be for these characters to get together.Aren't those the only stories that really referenced the couple before this?

[Tre Styles]

Here is the page I was talking about....
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/TreStyles1/StormandCykeconvo.jpg

[Smarty Jones]

"Because Storm is right now their number 2 person and they need her leadership skills which all them X-men don't have and what makes you think they have more allies then ever?"

Again, characters like Cyclops, Emma Frost, Nightcrawler and Havok have been leaders in the past, and characters like Colossus and Psylocke hardly need someone telling standing over them. Not to mention it seems like a lot of the mutants still around are related to The X-Men.

"Are the Avengers and FF going to help the X-men with the Sentials coming to destory their race and the gov. trying to maybe get rid of the rest or the mutants like the writers at Marvel had said might happen."

Like that really is going to happen; that's the same old shoe that's been part of X-lore since the 1970s.

"Apocalypse is alive again and Sinister and Apocalypse will both be back in the X-books next year. Plus the Hellfire club is back too. Just because Magneto is powerless doesn't he won't do nothing, he is one of the smartest man on the planet (not like Reed or Doom) and can come up with other ways to fight his war if that's what he is going to still be doing."

The X-Men have handled Apocalypse and Mister Sinister in the past, and both were in limbo a long time. If the editors make Apocalypse as toothless as they did in the first place -- complete with converting X-characters into temporary Horsemen -- I don't see why Storm would be needed.

All these elements were in place in the numerous times other X-Men left the team. Professor X left the team knowing Apocalypse possessed Cyclops, and Jean Grey left the team shortly. Wolverine left after "Fatal Attractions." Why is this being hanged on Storm's head is not a good reason.

"And this isn't a just an everyday problem the X-men face, the race is right now fighting for their surivial because there are only less then 200 of them left and humans want the rest of them dead and Storm wants no part in it, doesn't make much sense to me."

You're being a little melodramatic, aren't you? Bastion went after The X-Men in "Operation: Zero Tolerance," and you're talking about an instant replay of that. Again, where is Charles Xavier and why isn't he getting this albatross thrown on his back?

The X-Men have more members than ever, and it's not like this is a team of rookies or people who have never worked together. You're sticking a double standard on Storm, when there have been precedence of X-Men doing the same thing.

[Crimson]

Here is the page I was talking about....
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/TreStyles1/StormandCykeconvo.jpg


Perhaps people could become more open too the idea of Storm leaving if we knew which was the proper reason... is it Black Panther #9 or House of M: The Day After?

[Smarty Jones]

"Here is the page I was talking about...."
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b9/TreStyles1/StormandCykeconvo.jpg

Yeah, that hardly seems like Storm is being irresponsible concerning The X-Men. The way some of you people are talking, you would have thought Storm left because of a booty call.

Nothing in that conversation even citing that she is leaving because of The Black Panther. For the first time, it seems she's actually showing some concern about her roots. It sounds very much like a legitmate reason to leave.

[Tre Styles]

Perhaps people could become more open too the idea of Storm leaving if we knew which was the proper reason... is it Black Panther #9 or House of M: The Day After?


Welll, I didn't read BP #9, so I felt it was HOM: Day After, because if it was because of Black Panther BEFORE Decimation hit, then there shouldn't be a problem with her taking some time for herself. At least that's how I see it. But my take is that HOM is the reason. But yeah, I probably should see BP #9 to see what all the fuss is about. Then again, I don't care for Hudlin's handling of the characters all that much...and HOM: DA was written by Claremont..... :p ;)

[Titan76]

The X-Men are a group of grizzled veterans, featuring the likes of Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Colossus, Bishop, Havok and Psylocke. This ship is hardly rudderless. Jean Grey has been dead for a few years and Professor Xavier was living on Genosha for some time, apart from the team.
Jean is not dead, read Phoenix Endsong, her body isn't even in her grave anymore. While yes the X-men have lots of veterans that doesn't make them leaders. The Avengers have lots of vet. but how many leaders have they had or will follow? Same goes with the X-men.


Since The Avengers essentially was disbanded and became Brian Michael Bendis' favorite pets, there is a reason why Wonder Man, The Vision, etc. are not members. Conversely, there is no logical reason some X-Men and villains have been on the shelf for a long period, especially since there are three X-Men books on the shelf.
There are 3 X-books on the self right now because they sell really good. If the Avengers could sell 3 books then Marvel would give them 3 books. I agree with you that there have been X-men and villains on the shelf for a long time but this doesn't happen only in the X-books to you know.


Captain America, Iron Man and Thor have established adventures outside of The Avengers. Occasionally their worlds have crept over into The Avengers', but their issues mostly are separate from The Avengers.

Meanwhile, Storm is defined by The X-Men. The character really has no definition or distinction outside of being an X-Man. Wolverine is the only X-Man who has some sort of identity beyond The X-Men, but even that is overexposed.
If Storm was given a solo title then her adventures would be separate as well like Wolverine's mostly is. Iron Man is more know as an Avenger and maybe Cap is too just like Storm know as an X-man. The only difference is they have solo books that help make them 100% know as just Avengers, if Storm had her own book as well then the same could apply to her as well. And yeah, Wolverine is too overexposed.


This is truly the first time Storm has taken a break from The X-Men,
No its not. When she lost her powers she went back to Africa for a few months Marvel time to take a break for the X-men.
She even led the team during the period where she lost her powers and during her period of soul-searching in "Lifepath," Storm was seen as a presence in the X-books.
Would it have made it better if it was in a mini or another ongoing book? It was in the X-book because the person he wrote it was Claremont and it was his choice. I guess it could have been a mini but then I don't think most fans would have read it becasue Storm wasn't really at her prime yet.


Characters date in comic books because of editorial dictation; these are fictional characters who are given their motivations by other people. These are NOT real people, so editors can make anyone theoretically be a couple.

Throughout comic book history, there have been characters who were created specifically to be love interests (see Mary Jane Watson, Lois Lane) and all characters' dating patterns are the result of what the creators want. What you may call "forced" is really more how you feel with what precision that creator handled it.
I agree with you on this 100%.
Again, I don't know to what you are referencing concerning Storm and The Black Panther, but books like "Marvel Team-Up 100" and "Black Panther 25-27" showed that the creators showed how plausible it could be for these characters to get together.
I just don't see them together and have not read these books you have mention and to be honest don't plan too. I think if Marvel wanted to put Storm and BP together they should have done it in a much better way. I just don't like the way they put them together that's all. We all have our dislike of stories and this was one of them for me. I am not saying I don't ever want to see Storm with BP, just that I think Marvel could have done a better job at doing it.

[The Fury]

*Steps in*

There is a difference between an Editorial decision and what the characters said.

Her leaving the books and going to Africa is/was Editorial decision, why she did that was due to what the writers wanted.

*Runs out*

[Smarty Jones]

"I just don't see (The Black Panther and Storm) together and have not read these books you have mention and to be honest don't plan too. I think if Marvel wanted to put Storm and BP together they should have done it in a much better way. I just don't like the way they put them together that's all. We all have our dislike of stories and this was one of them for me. I am not saying I don't ever want to see Storm with BP, just that I think Marvel could have done a better job at doing it."

Like I said, I don't know what you read to come to this conclusion but the roots of such a relationship were planted 26 years ago and progressed several years ago, thanks to Christopher Priest's "Black Panther 25-27."

I presume you're talking about the "House of M" book and what Reggie Hudlin wrote in his take on The Black Panther. Maybe by reading what you read, I can get an appreciation for what you're seeing.

Could you tell me the books in question?

[Smarty Jones]

"*Steps in*

There is a difference between an Editorial decision and what the characters said.

Her leaving the books and going to Africa is/was Editorial decision, why she did that was due to what the writers wanted.

*Runs out*"

No different for any other romantic pairing in comic books. So why attack this one?

[Crimson]

Like I said, I don't know what you read to come to this conclusion but the roots of such a relationship were planted 26 years ago and progressed several years ago, thanks to Christopher Priest's "Black Panther 25-27."

I presume you're talking about the "House of M" book and what Reggie Hudlin wrote in his take on The Black Panther. Maybe by reading what you read, I can get an appreciation for what you're seeing.

Could you tell me the books in question?

Isn't Priests run now been scrapped and Hudlin's is a reboot? So that would leave Marvel Team Up, oh and the recent crossover with X-Men/Black Panther.

[TheWolfOfAsgard]

No different for any other romantic pairing in comic books. So why attack this one?

Probably because it is Storm. One of the most beloved characters in the X-Universe and she is leaving for whatever reason. That's gonna make a lot of people unhappy. Kinda can be seen as a lover leaving a person for someone else. One reaction is to lash out in hurt and anger.


I could care either way as long as they give her a good story and do some character development. She's one of the best characters in the Marvel Universe and too often no writer seems to know what to with her except Claremont.

[Titan76]

Again, characters like Cyclops, Emma Frost, Nightcrawler and Havok have been leaders in the past, and characters like Colossus and Psylocke hardly need someone telling standing over them. Not to mention it seems like a lot of the mutants still around are related to The X-Men.
True the do have enough leaders to lead the X-men but each leader isn't really the same. I have never like Nightcrawler as a leader and never thought he really made a good one and Emma is a Headmaster not a X-team leader.

Like that really is going to happen; that's the same old shoe that's been part of X-lore since the 1970s.
This could be said for every comic book when it comes to their stories. Each has in a way its own different outcome but this really isn't a story like the others the X-men have had. Onslaught wasn't and others wasn't because their wasn't less then 200 mutants left from the outcome.


The X-Men have handled Apocalypse and Mister Sinister in the past, and both were in limbo a long time. If the editors make Apocalypse as toothless as they did in the first place -- complete with converting X-characters into temporary Horsemen -- I don't see why Storm would be needed.
What you just said is true, but since the Avengers always win then why do they need Cap and Iron Man for leaders then since they too always win?
All these elements were in place in the numerous times other X-Men left the team. Professor X left the team knowing Apocalypse possessed Cyclops, and Jean Grey left the team shortly.
Xavier did not know Cyclops was possessed, he thought he was dead and Jean kinda of did to which is why she left, wouldn't you if your mate had just died or thought had just died? Her leaving for awhile made sense, and Xavier left because the mutant Skulls were in his care and he needed to find them place to live.
Wolverine left after "Fatal Attractions." .
Wolverine left because he just got his sleketon rip out of him and was healing from it and wanted to know she things about his past, plus Wolveine isn't a team leader like Storm so I don't know why you keep on using him.
Why is this being hanged on Storm's head is not a good reason
Because if Storm was so worried about what was happening in Africa then why does she went until now to take care of it? Really. Not trying to be an ass or nothing but it just seems a little force for to start doing this now and not before HoM happen which would have to me made a little more sense.
You're being a little melodramatic, aren't you? Bastion went after The X-Men in "Operation: Zero Tolerance," and you're talking about an instant replay of that. Again, where is Charles Xavier and why isn't he getting this albatross thrown on his back?
Storm was with them during that time and no one knows where Xavier is. No one has seem him since HoM started and ended. His whereabout I think will be mention in Deadly Genesis though.
The X-Men have more members than ever, and it's not like this is a team of rookies or people who have never worked together. You're sticking a double standard on Storm, when there have been precedence of X-Men doing the same thing.
Like I said the same thing could be said about the Avengers too. And how I'm I putting a double standard on Storm? The X-men have also lost some members too and not only are the X-men but they are teachers as well to their students too.

[The Fury]

No different for any other romantic pairing in comic books. So why attack this one?
I'm not attacking their relationship.

BP and Storm can be together for all I care.

But I don't think Claremont would have wanted for her to leave his book. My opinion. Don't worry yourself over it.

[Smarty Jones]

"Isn't Priests run now been scrapped and Hudlin's is a reboot? So that would leave Marvel Team Up, oh and the recent crossover with X-Men/Black Panther."

Quite frankly, I don't know what to make of Reggie Hudlin's run on "Black Panther." It contradicts a lot of things concerning not just T'Challa, but what has happened in the Marvel Universe. You've got a Klaw that no longer is made of sound, a Radioactive Man that's a different race than the one that was in "Thunderbolts," etc.

Maybe this T'Challa/Storm pairing would make sense if Hudlin's massive messing-over of T'Challa was not in the picture. Could you tell me what issues that have some of you upset over this pairing, so I can read them for myself?

[Tre Styles]

Isn't Priests run now been scrapped and Hudlin's is a reboot? So that would leave Marvel Team Up, oh and the recent crossover with X-Men/Black Panther.

They "scrapped" Priest's run? They are saying it never happened? I hadn't heard this! If this is true, then that's truly outrageous....where can I find out more about that Crimson?.

[Smarty Jones]

"I'm not attacking their relationship.

BP and Storm can be together for all I care.

But I don't think Claremont would have wanted for her to leave his book. My opinion. Don't worry yourself over it."

But in all fairness, I think Chris Claremont is part of the reason The X-Men are trapped in their insular, incestuous cycle. He simply will not let go of characters while overemphasizing some and stifling others.

[Crimson]

They "scrapped" Priest's run? They are saying it never happened? I hadn't heard this! If this is true, then that's truly outrageous....where can I find out more about that Crimson?.

It's really confusing.

The new Black Panther series first arc #1-6 takes place when he first becomes Black Panther. Now, Hudlin tried to explain this was simply a Year One type deal but the recent cross over with X-Men includes ongoing plots from the first arc which apparantly means it takes place at the very least a few months after the first arc.

The crossover with X-Men though includes members that weren't around when Black Panther made his comic debut so the crossover can't take place in the past.

Apparanrtly it is a reboot. It's really confusing and opens a whole other can of worms.

Quite frankly, I don't know what to make of Reggie Hudlin's run on "Black Panther." It contradicts a lot of things concerning not just T'Challa, but what has happened in the Marvel Universe. You've got a Klaw that no longer is made of sound, a Radioactive Man that's a different race than the one that was in "Thunderbolts," etc.

Maybe this T'Challa/Storm pairing would make sense if Hudlin's massive messing-over of T'Challa was not in the picture. Could you tell me what issues that have some of you upset over this pairing, so I can read them for myself?

I think alot of my issues with the pairing is the confusion.

Why is she leaving? Which is the proper reason BP#9 or House of M: The Day After? I don't mind the second one.

How much history do Black Panther and Storm have? Is it only the Marvel Team Up?

I think Black Panther and Storm could make an interesting pairing and it'd be cool to see but it seems forced in this instance were in one crossover after all these years they look to be getting back together. I'd much prefer a slower build but of course the X-Men being in their own corner makes this near impossible.

I have very high hopes for the Storm mini next year though, which should hopefully clear up what is currently cannon as far as Black Panther/Storm history is. Hopefully after that I can buy their relationship.

[Tre Styles]

It's really confusing.

The new Black Panther series first arc #1-6 takes place when he first becomes Black Panther. Now, Hudlin tried to explain this was simply a Year One type deal but the recent cross over with X-Men includes ongoing plots from the first arc which apparantly means it takes place at the very least a few months after the first arc.

The crossover with X-Men though includes members that weren't around when Black Panther made his comic debut so the crossover can't take place in the past.

Apparanrtly it is a reboot. It's really confusing and opens a whole other can of worms.


Yep. Quite confusing.....mmm, don't know what to make about that. :cool:

[The Fury]

But in all fairness, I think Chris Claremont is part of the reason The X-Men are trapped in their insular, incestuous cycle. He simply will not let go of characters while overemphasizing some and stifling others.
True, Claremont is a reason...but then so are most writers.

I mean when was the last time any X-men character dated someone that was not part of the X-men or a mutant? I mean as soon as Colossus came back he got back with Kitty. Before he died they weren't dating.

It's been a while. Again what this might be down to is Editors again. They hold the final decision over where characters go or other big character developments (or they are meant to).

[Smarty Jones]

"How much history do Black Panther and Storm have? Is it only the Marvel Team Up?

I think Black Panther and Storm could make an interesting pairing and it'd be cool to see but it seems forced in this instance were in one crossover after all these years they look to be getting back together. I'd much prefer a slower build but of course the X-Men being in their own corner makes this near impossible."

The big problem is not Storm and The Black Panther themselves then, but how Reggie Hudlin's butchering of T'Challa has made a mess of a lot of things -- including the viability of a relationship.

I'm really surprised Marvel will let Hudlin's work stand in continuity, because it really makes a mess of a lot of things (not just for T'Challa, but throughout Marvel). In the initial issues, T'Challa was not an Avenger but recently he addressed Spider-Man as a "fellow Avenger." Hudlin not only is making a mess of established Marvel continuity, but he contradicts HIS OWN continuity, it seems.

Like I said, I need to read his take on meeting The X-Men and Storm's interactions with T'Challa to see where you all are coming from.

However, I also will say that this is not the first time there has been some heated discussions of seeing T'Challa and Storm together -- I remember four years ago when I first posted here that people were trashing T'Challa and that was when Christopher Priest was working on the book.

[Titan76]

Like I said, I don't know what you read to come to this conclusion but the roots of such a relationship were planted 26 years ago and progressed several years ago, thanks to Christopher Priest's "Black Panther 25-27."

I presume you're talking about the "House of M" book and what Reggie Hudlin wrote in his take on The Black Panther. Maybe by reading what you read, I can get an appreciation for what you're seeing.

Could you tell me the books in question?
I didn't like the X-men/Panther crossover, thought it was dumb and now I have drop the book(the X-men book, only brought BP to read the crossover). Plus I hate how Milligan writes the X-men and I will no longer read the rest of his run. If this had been another writer(a good one) and there was a better build up(more then what we have gotton) to Storm going to be with the BP then I might have like this. This is just a couple(marvel has said Storm will be with BP and in his book) that I don't like to see right now because of the recent crossover but that could change if they are writen better in the future. Only time will tell. Nice debating, but I got to go now. Later.

[Beast]

True, Claremont is a reason...but then so are most writers.

I mean when was the last time any X-men character dated someone that was not part of the X-men or a mutant? I mean as soon as Colossus came back he got back with Kitty. Before he died they weren't dating.

It's been a while. Again what this might be down to is Editors again. They hold the final decision over where characters go or other big character developments (or they are meant to).
Beast, and to some extent Bobby have always dated outside the team for the most part. Even Angel and Cyclops have had quite a few relationships outside the X-Pantheon. Unfortunatly, having support characters outside the team seems to have been something that was lost with the dreck that came up in the 90's. Only Hank's still dating outside the team, and given that I wish Trish would get hit by a bus, not with someone I like. :p

[Tre Styles]

ALthough it was an alternate reality, didn't Alex Ross have Storm and T'Challa together in EarthX or something? So, the idea has been out there long before Hudlin, and even Priest. I think Priest just picked up on the idea that had been around....which I guess was the Marvel Team Up #100.....
Anyways, it doesn't sound like the worst idea in the world to have Storm and T'Challa together.....

[Smarty Jones]

"ALthough it was an alternate reality, didn't Alex Ross have Storm and T'Challa together in EarthX or something? So, the idea has been out there long before Hudlin, and even Priest. I think Priest just picked up on the idea that had been around....which I guess was the Marvel Team Up #100.....
Anyways, it doesn't sound like the worst idea in the world to have Storm and T'Challa together....."

Exactly.

Like I said, T'Challa is one of the most respected characters in the Marvel Universe. One of the better superheroes, incredibly resourceful and intelligent, the ruler of the most technologically advanced nation on the planet. Even with Reggie Hudlin's hack job, in his own twisted way he is writing T'Challa as such.

But the problem was even before Hudlin's work, this idea was being savaged by posters on this forum in CBR -- when Christopher Priest was working on the character. What makes T'Challa so "unworthy" of Storm, the same character who dated some no-name Australian surfer out of the blue?

[Smarty Jones]

"And all of that is simply your opinion of the character. :)"

There is no matter of opinion -- The Black Panther always has been one of the most respected characters in Marvel, by his superhuman peers and readers.

You really need to come with some reasons why T'Challa is "unworthy" of Storm, considering she dated some questionable people like Slipstream and Wolverine.

Sounding like the only difference is race here.

[The Fury]

Beast, and to some extent Bobby have always dated outside the team for the most part. Even Angel and Cyclops have had quite a few relationships outside the X-Pantheon. Unfortunatly, having support characters outside the team seems to have been something that was lost with the dreck that came up in the 90's. Only Hank's still dating outside the team, and given that I wish Trish would get hit by a bus, not with someone I like. :p
All true.

But most of those realtionships were long ago. Nowadays it's just about dating the other X-men. Havok/Polaris or Bobby/Polaris. Psylocke/whoever (it seems). Scott/Emma. Kitty/Colossus. Rogue/Gambit (until recently). Warren/Husk.

Yet the single people who aren't dating...just aren't dating anyone. End of.

They should venture out more. I thank Bendis for hooking up Ult Spider-man and Kitty.

[Smarty Jones]

"All true.

But most of those realtionships were long ago. Nowadays it's just about dating the other X-men. Havok/Polaris or Bobby/Polaris. Psylocke/whoever (it seems). Scott/Emma. Kitty/Colossus. Rogue/Gambit (until recently). Warren/Husk.

Yet the single people who aren't dating...just aren't dating anyone. End of.

They should venture out more. I thank Bendis for hooking up Ult Spider-man and Kitty."

Like I said, it's an incestuous nature that permeates The X-Men's books. It's time to move some of the characters out of the X-books, in general.

[The Fury]

Like I said, it's an incestuous nature that permeates The X-Men's books. It's time to move some of the characters out of the X-books, in general.
Hey, the sooner Iceman, Rogue or Jean Grey join the Avengers the better in my view.

True power needs to be with Earth's mightiest Heroes.

[xmanson]

I just dislike the way the relationship is being shown now. If it was done the that Priest wrote it - both charcaters very respectful towards each other, and Ororo being the only one to finally make Tchalla open up, it would be great.

But then we got that crappy crossover with the annoying wisecracking Tchalla and Storm staying away from Africa because she couldn't keep it in her pants? No, thank you.

Well, the mini will be about their past, hoepfullt it will spare us of the present stuff.

[Smarty Jones]

"I just dislike the way the relationship is being shown now. If it was done the that Priest wrote it - both charcaters very respectful towards each other, and Ororo being the only one to finally make Tchalla open up, it would be great.

But then we got that crappy crossover with the annoying wisecracking Tchalla and Storm staying away from Africa because she couldn't keep it in her pants? No, thank you."

But that is something that is inherent with Reggie Hudlin's and Peter Milligan's handling of both The Black Panther and Storm, NOT something that is an indemnic flaw of both of these characters being together. My problem is this notion that Storm and The Black Panther are inherently a poor match, which outside of Hudlin's work has been shown as not being the case.

[xmanson]

But that is something that is inherent with Reggie Hudlin's poor handling of both The Black Panther and Storm, NOT something that is an indemnic flaw of both of these characters being together. My problem is this notion that Storm and The Black Panther are inherently a poor match, which outside of Hudlin's work has been shown as not being the case.


I don't think they are a poor match, but it just seemed to came out of nowhere now, just for putting them together because they are black or whatever. And you can't take away the handling of the charcater. They may be perfect for each other if you think so, but if the handling of the charcaters is poor, let's keep them apart, please.

[Smarty Jones]

"I don't think they are a poor match, but it just seemed to came out of nowhere now, just for putting them together because they are black or whatever. And you can't take away the handling of the charcater. They may be perfect for each other if you think so, but if the handling of the charcaters is poor, let's keep them apart, please."

Could you show me the panel where Storm and The Black Panther said they were together because they are black? Because otherwise that's a strong inference that's not based on anything.

[xmanson]

Check the promotion for the upcoming mini, that's seem the reason they are pairing them up - a black couple for the black history month, by a black writer.

Does this cheapen the relationship (the black thing)? No, of course not.

But the reason they seem to be doing this is what is stupid. Let's build things up and get characterizatiosn right first. Them they can have all the babies they want.

[Smarty Jones]

"Check the p´romotion for the upcoming mini, that's seem the reason they are pairing them up - a black couple for the black history month."

If anything, that's a sad indictment on the comic book industry. The fact that seeing a minority, monoracial couple actually is considered controversial. I think it's ironic in a fictional world where characters have superhuman abilities and perform incredible feats, that seeing a black couple is considered even rarer.

Like I said, when I saw Wolverine and Storm together would it have been appropriate to say, "They are only together because they are X-Men?" Or what about Jean Grey and Cyclops -- "They are only together because they are white?" Why do Storm and T'Challa have to be justified in some readers' eyes? Would we be having this conversation if it was, say, Storm and Tony Stark?

We should be addressing why is it so rare to see black, Hispanic or Asian couples in comic books -- and that is a slice of reality I would like to see in this medium.

[xmanson]

If anything, that's a sad indictment on the comic book industry. The fact that seeing a minority, monoracial couple actually is considered controversial. I think it's ironic in a fictional world where characters have superhuman abilities and perform incredible feats, that seeing a black couple is considered even rarer.

Like I said, when I saw Wolverine and Storm together would it have been appropriate to say, "They are only together because they are X-Men?" Or what about Jean Grey and Cyclops -- "They are only together because they are white?" Why do Storm and T'Challa have to be justified in some readers' eyes? Would we be having this conversation if it was, say, Storm and Tony Stark?

We should be addressing why is it so rare to see black, Hispanic or Asian couples in comic books -- and that is a slice of reality I would like to see in this medium.


Really, to me is more of the context things seem to be heading and the characterization they are given. This current Storm/Tchalla thing came out of nowhere. She seemd pretty happy with the X-Men, had her own team and BANG! no, she is unahhpy and wants to stay in Africa. And as I said before, the interaction between them was atrocious. I don't mind the concept , only the current execution.

Of course, it may be a temporary thing and the mini could give us some better work than Hudlin's (not that difficult).

At least they are not doing a "healthy interacial gay couple" for AIDS fight day.

[Sharcque]

I don't know if it's been said, but I just don't want to see Storm mixed up with BP simply b/c I don't want her being a regular in BP with all of the retconning that goes on in that book! I hate to even think what Hudlin would do to her history, given the chance. That's my only problem with it.

[atoningunifex]

We should be addressing why is it so rare to see black, Hispanic or Asian couples in comic books -- and that is a slice of reality I would like to see in this medium.

In other words, you want Storm and T'Challa together because they're black.

You can point at the desirable traits in both and give a good explanation for why they should be together. But in the end you start with wanting to see two black characters together and work out the justification for it afterwards.

There's nothing wrong with that. Most all of the realtionships that comic book characters find themselves in are relationships of thematic convenience. In this case Marvel and the writers want to explore two powerful black heroes having a romance.

It has the potential to be a great storyline. All ideas do. It will depend on the outcome. But it seems silly to suppose that it doesn't stem from wanting to see two black characters together.

[Smarty Jones]

"In other words, you want Storm and T'Challa together because they're black."

You can point at the desirable traits in both and give a good explanation for why they should be together. But in the end you start with wanting to see two black characters together and work out the justification for it afterwards.

There's nothing wrong with that. Most all of the realtionships that comic book characters find themselves in are relationships of thematic convenience. In this case Marvel and the writers want to explore two powerful black heroes having a romance.

It has the potential to be a great storyline. All ideas do. It will depend on the outcome. But it seems silly to suppose that it doesn't stem from wanting to see two black characters together."

It's not the only basis of why I want to see Storm and The Black Panther together, but it is a result and an implication that fits in well with the framework of these characters.

I'm not going to lie and say the idea of seeing two prominent, well-respected black characters actually in a relationship does not intrigue me. But like I said before, these are two characters who have a history together and IMO have a lot of common sensibilities that make them compatible. Who was the last black superhero couple we've seen in a comic book, Mal and Bumblebee some 30 years ago?

If this was, say, Storm and Triathlon, you would have a point. Neither one of these characters have anything in common. But Storm and The Black Panther do, and we're talking about something that has roots in a story more than 25 years ago.

Like I said, why can't we actually see a black couple together -- not JUST BECAUSE they're black, but it makes some sense AND they happen to give a demographic some quality representation?

[Alphaxman]

It's not the only basis of why I want to see Storm and The Black Panther together, but it is a result and an implication that fits in well with the framework of these characters.

I'm not going to lie and say the idea of seeing two prominent, well-respected black characters actually in a relationship does not intrigue me. But like I said before, these are two characters who have a history together and IMO have a lot of common sensibilities that make them compatible. Who was the last black superhero couple we've seen in a comic book, Mal and Bumblebee some 30 years ago?

If this was, say, Storm and Triathlon, you would have a point. Neither one of these characters have anything in common. But Storm and The Black Panther do, and we're talking about something that has roots in a story more than 25 years ago.

Like I said, why can't we actually see a black couple together -- not JUST BECAUSE they're black, but it makes some sense AND they happen to give a demographic some quality representation?


I totally agree with you. But I do have to put Night Thrasher/Silhouette as the last Black Superhero couple. Even if she's helf Asian.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

It's not the only basis of why I want to see Storm and The Black Panther together, but it is a result and an implication that fits in well with the framework of these characters.

I'm not going to lie and say the idea of seeing two prominent, well-respected black characters actually in a relationship does not intrigue me. But like I said before, these are two characters who have a history together and IMO have a lot of common sensibilities that make them compatible. Who was the last black superhero couple we've seen in a comic book, Mal and Bumblebee some 30 years ago?

If this was, say, Storm and Triathlon, you would have a point. Neither one of these characters have anything in common. But Storm and The Black Panther do, and we're talking about something that has roots in a story more than 25 years ago.

Like I said, why can't we actually see a black couple together -- not JUST BECAUSE they're black, but it makes some sense AND they happen to give a demographic some quality representation?

So who is Storm more compatible with in the long term? She was drawn to Forge awhile ago and they seemed to have a legitimate connection for the better. Not to mention Storm was drawn to Doom which, in fact, was a Doombot. If there's one relationship they should of explored with her, that was the one.

[DDM]

Check the promotion for the upcoming mini, that's seem the reason they are pairing them up - a black couple for the black history month, by a black writer.

Does this cheapen the relationship (the black thing)? No, of course not.

But the reason they seem to be doing this is what is stupid. Let's build things up and get characterizatiosn right first. Them they can have all the babies they want.

Which is the wrong reasons for Ororo to be involved with T'Challa. "I am only with you T'Challa because February is Black History Month; afterwards, I shall return home back to my fellow X-Men. I have unresolved storylines with Xavier's philosophy. I am sure you can understand my political situation. Goddess grant me the strength to be a superficial black character for the duration of a superflous limited series."

[Smarty Jones]

"Which is the wrong reasons for Ororo to be involved with T'Challa. 'I am only with you T'Challa because February is Black History Month; afterwards, I shall return home back to my fellow X-Men. I have unresolved storylines with Xavier's philosophy. I am sure you can understand my political situation. Goddess grant me the strength to be a superficial black character for the duration of a superflous limited series.'"

But the fact is we may not be having this conversation if comic book publishers actually showed more minority characters in romantic, monoracial relationships. The fact that you have to go back to Mal and Bumblebee (and possibly Night Thrasher and Silhouette) to even find a black superhero couple is ridiculous.

[Beast]

But the fact is we may not be having this conversation if comic book publishers actually showed more minority characters in romantic, monoracial relationships. The fact that you have to go back to Mal and Bumblebee (and possibly Night Thrasher and Silhouette) to even find a black superhero couple is ridiculous.
It's somewhat sad how much importance you place on the color of the characters skin, rather than the emotion or personality behind said characters. All I've seen you state over and over is that you only want black to be with black. Sad, really. That would like me wanting guys to only be with guys, no matter how little the relationship actually makes sense. It's also segregationist thinking, given that equality is something everyone should be behind. Why force characters together just because they're black, white, chinese, or blue. ;)

[Smarty Jones]

"It's somewhat sad how much importance you place on the color of the characters skin, rather than the emotion or personality behind said characters. All I've seen you state over and over is that you only want black to be with black. Sad, really. That would like me wanting guys to only be with guys, no matter how little the relationship actually makes sense. It's also segregationist thinking, given that equality is something everyone should be behind. Why force characters together just because they're black, white, chinese, or blue. ;)"

I'm simply asking for fair representation of all demographics, to be somewhat reflective of the real world.

The fact that in 2005 we're even asking for ONE minority couple to be depicted in comic books is sad. Just like the majority of white people date and marry other white people, so do black people, Hispanic people and Asian people. Do you NOT see that?

[Beast]

I'm simply asking for fair representation of all demographics, to be somewhat reflective of the real world.

The fact that in 2005 we're even asking for ONE minority couple to be depicted in comic books is sad. Just like the majority of white people date and marry other white people, so do black people, Hispanic people and Asian people. Do you NOT see that?
You're not asking for a fair representation. You're beating the sad point over and over that one teenage adventure and one kiss years later means that Storm and Black Panther belong together. Regardless of the 30+ years of comics where she's been with other people, and not given T'Challa even a second thought. It's forced as hell, given it's being pushed for Black History Month. I'd have no problem with her dating someone black that made sense and was actually developed in the comics, instead of just being dropped on people to celebrate black culture.

There's plenty of minority couples, but they're not always going to be the #1 A-List characters that are hooked up. Most characters in comics don't even really have established relationships. When's the last time Bishop dated anyone? Well, Claremont joked that he's gay, so there may be a reason why we haven't seen that yet. You really need to look beyond the skin tone and see the characters, not the color.

And I have no problems with minorities in comics. I think it's great that people can pick up a comic and see someone like them. But just because you have something in common with a character like skin tone, doesn't mean that the character should be a mirror of who you are.

There are very few homosexual couples in comics, and even fewer A-List homosexual characters. But I'm not stamping my feet and demanding more of them, I'm happy that they're represented at all. In fact, I hate when a writer tries to force a character to become something that doesn't make sense. When Morrison pulled the 'Beast is Gay' storyline out, I vented and argued against such a move. Why? Because it doesn't make sense given the established history of the character. I don't want a 'Gay for Gay Sake' character, anymore than I want a forced relationship between two black characters. See my point? :)

[Cowlander]

Fact is most people do marry and date within their ethnicity theres nothing wrong with doing that. THeres nothing wrong with dating outside your ethnicity either love is love. BUt when you only show one side of the equation that isnt fair representation no matter what side it is.

Its similar to the argument about claremonts over powered women. Theres nothing wrong with the women being so powerful its that the men arent equally so, and are usually downplayed or disregarded to up the other.

I mean really, you dont think its strange the fact that a black man and a black women dating each other in comics is an issue? I think something off in our representation as a people when it does.

To be honest I'm a black man who really cant stand storm as a char(when written by CC), on the other hand I barely have any nterest in BP. But the fact is a large percentage of most minority groups wont listen,buy, read, watch media that isnt in their mind "for them".

Its a big problem but if Marvel or any company can pair two characters like this together with a writer that high profile in the target community and hopefully get people to open their eyes to teh world of comics its a good thing.

[Beast]

Oh, I totally understand this Cowlander. Trust me on that. And besides how I feel about it, I'll be there in febuary to read the miniseries. You may ask why I'm going to buy and read something that I seem to argue against? Well, the simple fact of the matter is that I'm hoping that it's good and the relationship makes sense. And that they ignore the trainwreck of the awful 'stereotype' Black Panther that Hudlin's been writing. If they can make the relationship feel genuine and not forced, then I'm cool with it. I liked Storm with Logan, since they're both very primal forces of nature deep down. But I can accept her with just about anyone, as long as the feel is genuine. And that's where the proof will be in the pudding. :)

[Cowlander]

Oh, I totally understand this Cowlander. Trust me on that. And besides how I feel about it, I'll be there in febuary to read the miniseries. You may ask why I'm going to buy and read something that I seem to argue against? Well, the simple fact of the matter is that I'm hoping that it's good and the relationship makes sense. And that they ignore the trainwreck of the awful 'stereotype' Black Panther that Hudlin's been writing. If they can make the relationship feel genuine and not forced, then I'm cool with it. I liked Storm with Logan, since they're both very primal forces of nature deep down. But I can accept her with just about anyone, as long as the feel is genuine. And that's where the proof will be in the pudding. :)
::blink::man that was fast

I agree, tho I'm not touching the book. I hope it doesw what its intended to do. I just think the relationship makes a helluva lot more sense than say Storm/ NC or NC/ Rachel that CC hinted out earlier on. I wouldnt want to see Storm/ Wol just because I think its stupid that Wolv can basically run thru the x-women and noone bats and eye. Plus both chars irritate me at times. :)

[Smarty Jones]

"I'd have no problem with her dating someone black that made sense and was actually developed in the comics, instead of just being dropped on people to celebrate black culture."

Really?!?! In the insular world that is The X-Men? If you created a black love interest, you likely would be whining. If there was a character in existence, you would be whining. In any way, you would be saying the same thing.

Characters are put together by editorial decisions; ALL COMIC BOOK RELATIONSHIPS are the result of such action. These are not real human beings, but fictional characters! The editors and creators decide who should be dating, who should save the day, who will be in the next story, etc.

"There's plenty of minority couples, but they're not always going to be the #1 A-List characters that are hooked up."

OK, name them. Name some minority, monoracial couples. Not an interracial couple with one partner being white, but Hispanic or Asian or black couples that are not once-in-a-blue moon characters. And then figure if they represent a higher or lower percentage of such couples in reality.

The fact is MOST MINORITY GROUPS DATE AND MARRY EACH OTHER. There are plenty of interracial dating groups in comic books, and there's no problem with it. But the reality is that most minority characters DON'T date interracially -- just like our white counterparts.

So why is it OK to show the majority of white characters in monoracial relationships but yet minority characters (black, Asian, Hispanic) are almost ALWAYS paired with someone of another race (and most of the time, it's a white person)?

"There are very few homosexual couples in comics, and even fewer A-List homosexual characters. But I'm not stamping my feet and demanding more of them, I'm happy that they're represented at all."

I'm sorry, but I don't want to settle.

[Uncle Nobs]

ALthough it was an alternate reality, didn't Alex Ross have Storm and T'Challa together in EarthX or something? So, the idea has been out there long before Hudlin, and even Priest. I think Priest just picked up on the idea that had been around....which I guess was the Marvel Team Up #100.....
Anyways, it doesn't sound like the worst idea in the world to have Storm and T'Challa together.....
That's it--thank you! THAT'S why I had an aversion to the Ororo/T'Challa thing. It seemed like typical Alex Ross: "What's going to be the most iconic and most conventionally beautiful, but also the most predictable and least nuanced?"

That's the part that had been bugging me. But now that I know a history had been established since the 70s, it doesn't bug me anymore. There's enough between them to make it believable and nuanced. That Alex Ross image in my head was just bugging me.

Alex Ross just bugs me.

[Uncle Nobs]

If anything, that's a sad indictment on the comic book industry. The fact that seeing a minority, monoracial couple actually is considered controversial. I think it's ironic in a fictional world where characters have superhuman abilities and perform incredible feats, that seeing a black couple is considered even rarer.

Like I said, when I saw Wolverine and Storm together would it have been appropriate to say, "They are only together because they are X-Men?" Or what about Jean Grey and Cyclops -- "They are only together because they are white?" Why do Storm and T'Challa have to be justified in some readers' eyes? Would we be having this conversation if it was, say, Storm and Tony Stark?

We should be addressing why is it so rare to see black, Hispanic or Asian couples in comic books -- and that is a slice of reality I would like to see in this medium.
I don't think that people's concerns in this thread about pairing Ororo & T'Challa have to do with fearing a portrayal of a black couple. I know this fear does exist out there with some people. But I think folks in this thread are trying to say something else entirely.

I think readers know that these are black characters being handled by white (or not-black) creators. Ororo has most often been written by not-black writers. T'Challa has only been written by black writers in recent years (as far as I know). I think readers are nervous that not-black creators and not-black editors are only pairing them because the characters are black.

It's a lose-lose situation for not-black creators to handle a black character:

1) If they leave the character single, they risk being accused of leaving an iconic symbol of a strong black man/woman wasted and unworthy of finding love.

2) If they pair them with another black character, they risk being accused of doing it ONLY because they are both black and not based on WHO they are. Worse, they risk being accused of fearing interracial relationships.

3) If they put them in an interracial relationship, they risk being accused of fearing a black coupling.

Of these options, #3 is the safest. At least with an interracial relationship, a not-black writer knows he is demonstrating the ability to look at the characters and not just their skin, and he demonstrates no fear portraying black sexuality or in mixing races.



Smarty, if you were a white writer or editor and you knew every choice you made in portraying black characters was going to be scrutinized...

If you knew that if you left yourself vulnerable in any way, you risked being accused of being an outright racist (which is exactly the opposite of your intentions by portraying positive black characters)...

Wouldn't you end up going with the safest choice?



EDIT:
This is not to say that the safest choice is the best choice, either morally or creatively. It's just easy to see why we have more cases of interracial than monoracial relationships. Most often, it's not-black creators going with the safer choice.

[Uncle Nobs]

Why force characters together just because they're black, white, chinese, or blue. ;)
And you, on the other hand, seem to keep worrying that they are being forced together ONLY because they are black. I might have missed a post, but I have not heard you address why you don't think they should be matched up based on how incompatible or passionless you think they would be. What is it about their character that doesn't fit?

I know the context is not ideal. There seems to be an editorial mandate to put them together, there seems to be a lot going on with the X-Men for Storm to even consider breaking away (even though she expressed the need to safeguard mutants in Africa), and certainly Hudlin & Milligan's portrayals didn't help.

But considering this thing was set up nearly 30 years ago (NOT in a retcon) and was then somehow ignored all this time... Don't you think it's about time it was addressed? Even if you don't like them together forever, it's a dangling plot thread that seems dumb to leave hanging.

[crystalline green]

I'm not sure I get the whole 'Storm is leaving the X-men to knock boots with Black Panther' thing everyone is talking about. I may have missed it, but I don't remember Storm and BP falling into some passionate embrace during the X-Men/BP crossover. Mostly it seemed like there were indications that they had a past romance and now seemed to have a rather complicated relationship -- i.e. that there was some unfinished business between them. I know a Storm/BP mini is coming up that is supposed to be a romantic story, but I thought from the solicits that was set in the past and not the present. Storm's stated reasons for remaining in Africa seemed to have more to do with some soul-searching, protecting African mutants, and ideological differences with where the Institue is headed. There's no indication that she is remaining because she has suddenly fallen in love with T'Challa. Am I just totally missing something?

[Smarty Jones]

"Smarty, if you were a white writer or editor and you knew every choice you made in portraying black characters was going to be scrutinized...

If you knew that if you left yourself vulnerable in any way, you risked being accused of being an outright racist (which is exactly the opposite of your intentions by portraying positive black characters)...

Wouldn't you end up going with the safest choice?"

Going the interracial route is not a "safe" choice, though. What are you saying, that a "safe" depiction for white characters are likely monoracial pairings and for every minority it's interracial?

Let's be for real here: If comic book audiences are a decent reflection of the general population, then most of us are in monoracial relationships. Let's not act like we've never seen black, Hispanic or Asian couples in real life.

To act like seeing such couplings is a case of controversy and should be a debated issue is nothing short of insulting. I'm sorry, what is RACIST about seeing a black, Asian or Hispanic couple together? Is that a mindset non-minority people have when they see one?

The fact that seeing a black man and a black woman as a couple has become an issue of debate does suggest there is a serious problem with some people's view of the world.

[AllisterH]

Let's be for real here: If comic book audiences are a decent reflection of the general population, then most of us are in monoracial relationships. Let's not act like we've never seen black, Hispanic or Asian couples in real life.

To act like seeing such couplings is a case of controversy and should be a debated issue is nothing short of insulting. I'm sorry, what is RACIST about seeing a black, Asian or Hispanic couple together? Is that a mindset non-minority people have when they see one?

The problem though for Storm (and to an extent, the rest of the X-men) is that, as you yourself have pointed out, it has become incestuous. Since Archangel's cop girlfriend, name for me the last time any mutant appearing in the X-books had a "human" girlfriend. Nightcrawler has a regular girlfriend but that only appeared in his limited series. The same can be said for that guy that was interested in Kitty Pryde in Mechanix. Thus, unless Storm is in her own series, we won't see a normal guy.

Really, with so many characters even after House of M, people aren't willing to read a whole issue where Storm is simply romancing some non-powered dude. Thus, the guy in question, has to have some "superpower" and then it looks awkward in my mind that the one black female automatically pairs up with the black male. (You will not believe how much I didn't WANT Bishop & Storm to hook up)

[Smarty Jones]

"The problem though for Storm (and to an extent, the rest of the X-men) is that, as you yourself have pointed out, it has become incestuous. Since Archangel's cop girlfriend, name for me the last time any mutant appearing in the X-books had a 'human' girlfriend. Nightcrawler has a regular girlfriend but that only appeared in his limited series. The same can be said for that guy that was interested in Kitty Pryde in Mechanix. Thus, unless Storm is in her own series, we won't see a normal guy.

Really, with so many characters even after House of M, people aren't willing to read a whole issue where Storm is simply romancing some non-powered dude. Thus, the guy in question, has to have some "superpower" and then it looks awkward in my mind that the one black female automatically pairs up with the black male. (You will not believe how much I didn't WANT Bishop & Storm to hook up)"

I feel the problem is that if Storm was paired with any black character, it's going to create a fury with the non-black (i.e. white) people.

[Tre Styles]

I'm not sure I get the whole 'Storm is leaving the X-men to knock boots with Black Panther' thing everyone is talking about. I may have missed it, but I don't remember Storm and BP falling into some passionate embrace during the X-Men/BP crossover. Mostly it seemed like there were indications that they had a past romance and now seemed to have a rather complicated relationship -- i.e. that there was some unfinished business between them. I know a Storm/BP mini is coming up that is supposed to be a romantic story, but I thought from the solicits that was set in the past and not the present. Storm's stated reasons for remaining in Africa seemed to have more to do with some soul-searching, protecting African mutants, and ideological differences with where the Institue is headed. There's no indication that she is remaining because she has suddenly fallen in love with T'Challa. Am I just totally missing something?


That's what I thought too Crys, according to HOM: Day After. I haven't read BP#9, which is apparently where people are getting the idea that Storm is leaving to be with Black Panther. BUt according to the HOM: DA, she is leaving for the reasons stated above....(I even posted the page where she says so in this thread...lol) And I remember the solicits for the mini saying that the story was supposed to be in the past too.....But I guess that wasn't noticed, since it's obviously only being done for "Black History Month". Say Wha? :confused:

[Smarty Jones]

"That's what I thought too Crys, according to HOM: Day After. I haven't read BP#9, which is apparently where people are getting the idea that Storm is leaving to be with Black Panther. BUt according to the HOM: DA, she is leaving for the reasons stated above....(I even posted the page where she says so in this thread...lol) And I remember the solicits for the mini saying that the story was supposed to be in the past too.....But I guess that wasn't noticed, since it's obviously only being done for 'Black History Month.' Say Wha? :confused:"

I'm also confused on several fronts:

1.) What is with all the animosity toward The Black Panther? Despite Reggie Hudlin's obvious flaws, T'Challa always has been one of the most respected characters in the Marvel Universe. What, to paraphrase one person, about the idea of Storm being with him "makes your skin crawl?"

2.) Why is Storm's presence absolutely required in The X-Men? Yeah, the team is in its obligatory crises, but Storm left the team before "House of M." By my count, there are some 15 members in The X-Men and all of them have extensive experience.

3.) Why are Storm's actions being misrepresented as someone who can't control herself? She spoke in a conversation with Cyclops about the state of the world and she needed to focus on her priorities. She even asked for her team to join her -- does that sound like someone abandoning her teammates?

[Alphaxman]

Smarty I can see exactly were you’re coming form. Black Panther and Storm are the biggest Black Superheroes at Marvel and nether of them has had a relationship in a while. Personal, I can totally see them in love but it really would be hard for them to have a lasting relationship. Storm is too intertwined with the X-Men. She can’t have a life without leaving them but she can’t stay away to long. Even Captain America & Iron man always come back to the Avengers no matter how long they have taken a brake. And Black Panther can only have a love life if that person’s a support character in his book like Mary Jane or Lois Lane.

I would be great to have two Black Superheroes in love but there’s just not that many of them. Marvel only has five A-B level characters appearing monthly: Black Panther, Storm, Luke Cage, Bishop, & Falcon. Then there’s Patriot from Young Avengers and Monica/Photon/Pulsar & Misty Knight will be back in separate Mini-Series. So the options are slim. They would have to create a love interest and Black Panther is the best option. It is weird that out of all these characters (not to mention C level characters), Luke Cage is the only one in a relationship. And that’s with a white woman. Even over in DC, the Black characters that appear regularly like Black Lightning, Cyborg, Firestorm, Green (John) Lantern, JJ Thunder, Mr. Terrific, and Thunder are all single.

But on the other side, how many A-list Superheroes are in a long lasting relationship. Characters like Captain America, Iron Man, Bat Man, Wonder Woman, Hulk, She-Hulk, even Wolverine hardly stay in a lasting relationship more then a couple of months if ever.
So even if Black Panther & Storm get together, it won’t last :(

[Smarty Jones]

"Smarty I can see exactly were you’re coming form. Black Panther and Storm are the biggest Black Superheroes at Marvel and nether of them has had a relationship in a while. Personal, I can totally see them in love but it really would be hard for them to have a lasting relationship."

My concern is with all this animosity toward The Black Panther, and how some of the people seem indignant to the possibility that Storm could be in a relationship with T'Challa. The reason I responded is because people were saying that seeing them together "made their skin crawl."

Were people this upset when Storm dated Forge, a character who took her powers? Or Slipstream, a character created to be little more than a love interest? What about her dalliances with Cable and Nightcrawler? Or the otherwise contrasting ideology of Wolverine?

I never said anything about race, but I sure was attacked on racial grounds because I said the relationship made sense. We're talking about two characters who have had a shared history rooted in the 1970s, when it was shown they met as teen-agers in "Marvel Team-Up 100." Storm and The Black Panther also got together some five years ago in the Christopher Priest-edition of T'Challa's book, and touched on some romantic feelings.

"Storm is too intertwined with the X-Men. She can’t have a life without leaving them but she can’t stay away to long. Even Captain America & Iron man always come back to the Avengers no matter how long they have taken a brake. And Black Panther can only have a love life if that person’s a support character in his book like Mary Jane or Lois Lane."

But even Cap and Iron Man have left The Avengers on more than one occassion. Why can't Storm leave The X-Men for at least a short while? I personally would have her out of the book permanently, if only to give the character a chance to develop. Even without Storm, I count some 15 X-Men on the roster with varied powers and lots of experience.

"I would be great to have two Black Superheroes in love but there’s just not that many of them. Marvel only has five A-B level characters appearing monthly: Black Panther, Storm, Luke Cage, Bishop, & Falcon. Then there’s Patriot from Young Avengers and Monica/Photon/Pulsar & Misty Knight will be back in separate Mini-Series. So the options are slim. They would have to create a love interest and Black Panther is the best option. It is weird that out of all these characters (not to mention C level characters), Luke Cage is the only one in a relationship. And that’s with a white woman. Even over in DC, the Black characters that appear regularly like Black Lightning, Cyborg, Firestorm, Green (John) Lantern, JJ Thunder, Mr. Terrific, and Thunder are all single."

What is weird that there seems to be a different set of rules for white couples in comic books than there are for minority couples.

I don't feel that the superheros have to date each other, but it does make sense that some of them would be in some sort of relationship. How many times have we seen love interests created for white characters? Plenty of times, yet that seems to be something that is not done for minority characters that often, especially when it's someone of their own race or ethnicity.

"But on the other side, how many A-list Superheroes are in a long lasting relationship. Characters like Captain America, Iron Man, Bat Man, Wonder Woman, Hulk, She-Hulk, even Wolverine hardly stay in a lasting relationship more then a couple of months if ever."

But it's the fact they have been in relationships. I don't care if the relationship is but a few issues, all those characters have had love interests to various degrees. I don't expect any of them to be married at the end of the day, but at least they are shown having that capacity.

Why can't that be afforded to minority couples, especially when it comes to someone who looks like them? It's rather sad that in a fictional setting where characters can perform superhuman acts and face beings from the wildest imaginations, that seeing a minority couple has become much rarer than seeing aliens from another planet.

[crystalline green]

That's what I thought too Crys, according to HOM: Day After. I haven't read BP#9, which is apparently where people are getting the idea that Storm is leaving to be with Black Panther. BUt according to the HOM: DA, she is leaving for the reasons stated above....(I even posted the page where she says so in this thread...lol) And I remember the solicits for the mini saying that the story was supposed to be in the past too.....But I guess that wasn't noticed, since it's obviously only being done for "Black History Month". Say Wha? :confused:

Whew! Glad I'm not the only one. And thanx for posting the page from HOM: DA. It does help clarify things. I just realized that I haven't read BP#9 either, but I still doubt that whatever happened in that one issue contradicts what what she said in HOM: DA. Whether Marvel editorial is putting Storm and Black Panther together or not, I'm still very curious as to what plans Marvel has for her. Though I worry about Storm being removed from the X-men and languishing in limbo, I'm glad they are doing something different with her. I would feel better if she was joining the Avengers because then there would be some assurance that she would still have a role to play in the Marvel Universe.

If Marvel is indeed putting Storm and BP together, then it looks like there is still a chance that the relationship might happen more organically instead of being "forced" as so many people fear. While it has been clearly established already that they have a history, their reasons for getting back together romantically has yet to be developed and that could make for some interesting storytelling so long as they (the writers) just don't present the relationship as a foregone conclusion. I'm not opposed to BP and Storm having a relationship personally. They have more in common, IMHO, than she has had with any of her other love interests (the fact they they are the same race being the least of their commonalities). Because characters are defined by their relationships (romantic or not), relationships are a great way of exploring and developing a character. Both characters are long overdue for a serious on panel romance. And despite Beast's arguement to the contrary, showing a black monoracial relationship in comics would be progressive at this point. Smarty is absolutely right in pointing out that it is so rarely done. To say that is not to make a statement that all relationships should be monoracial, but just that the full range of human relationships could be depicted more realistically in comics. It's a pecular and persistent pattern that most minority characters are written into mixed race relationships by white writers while it is quite commonplace to see white monoracial relationships in comics. That doesn't smack of progressiveness at all to me. Quite the opposite, in fact, it seems to imply that readers are not going to be interested in an on panel romantic relationship unless there is at least one caucasian character in it.

[Kal]

After reading this thread it seems most people either hate BP or hate the idea that Storm is being paired with someone she has little history with because of black history month. And I agree with them. I'm black and African and don't want to see Storm with King T'Challa. Pair her off with Bishop if you want a monoracial relationships(and I see no reason why; I still fail to understand how comics, X-Men in particular, are supposed to accurately reflect what happens in real life). The relationship with T'Challa feels forced.

[Smarty Jones]

After reading this thread it seems most people either hate BP or hate the idea that Storm is being paired with someone she has little history with because of black history month."

The Black Panther and Storm have known each other since they were teen-agers, as revealed in a "Marvel Team-Up" book some 26 years ago.

Storm and T'Challa actually showed romantic feelings for each in The Black Panther series five years ago.

Storm has not said she was leaving The X-Men because of T'Challa, as showed by a scanned page in which she parted ways after disagreeing with Cyclops, who would not send her team to Africa.

So, a pairing of such characters isn't forced, and certainly no less forced that pairing Storm with a created love interest in "X-Treme X-Men."

[Kal]

They shared a short adventure as teenagers. You make it sound like they've been together ever since.

[Smarty Jones]

"They shared a short adventure as teenagers. You make it sound like they've been together ever since."

No, I didn't. I said Storm and The Black Panther have known each other since teen-agers, and even in their appearance at teens in "Marvel Team-Up 100" there was an indication of attraction -- an indication that was followed up in Christopher Priest's "Black Panther 25-27."

There is some track record. Whatever you read into that is something subjective you came up with on your own.

[Cowlander]

All true.

But most of those realtionships were long ago. Nowadays it's just about dating the other X-men. Havok/Polaris or Bobby/Polaris. Psylocke/whoever (it seems). Scott/Emma. Kitty/Colossus. Rogue/Gambit (until recently). Warren/Husk.

Yet the single people who aren't dating...just aren't dating anyone. End of.

They should venture out more. I thank Bendis for hooking up Ult Spider-man and Kitty.
Blame that on the fans tho, just look at these boards and how many times xmenA should date xmenB topics pop up. I've never understood it. But alot of xfans will constantly say their one big family, but then say xyz should sleep with abc. I understand where Smarty is getting the "incestuous nature" from. Its there but it definitely seems to sell.

[bfrank]

Apparently, you chuckled so hard that you forgot to read the part that The Black Panther and Storm have known each other since they were teen-agers, as revealed in a "Marvel Team-Up" book some 26 years ago.

Or that Storm and T'Challa actually showed romantic feelings for each in The Black Panther series five years ago.

Or that Storm has not said she was leaving The X-Men because of T'Challa, as showed by a scanned page in which she parted ways after disagreeing with Cyclops, who would not send her team to Africa.

So, a pairing of such characters isn't forced, and certainly no less forced that pairing Storm with a created love interest in "X-Treme X-Men."

or forge for that matter....or khan...or doom....etc, etc....

[xmanson]

Or that Storm has not said she was leaving The X-Men because of T'Challa, as showed by a scanned page in which she parted ways after disagreeing with Cyclops, who would not send her team to Africa.


Becuase they wanted her to be paired with Tchalla, since that decison came out of nowhere.

[Smarty Jones]

"Becuase they wanted her to be paired with Tchalla, since that decison came out of nowhere."

Just like all other pairings for other characters have "come out of nowhere." In fact, Storm had some sort of intimacy with two characters shortly after their creation in "X-Treme X-Men."

Like I said to someone else, what were your reactions to Storm's other relationships, especially to Slipstream and Khan? And what makes this so different?

[Tre Styles]

The thing with Storm and Slipstream to me made very little sense at least to me. Surfer boy and Wind Goddess? I didn't see the attraction. Maybe I just saw...see Ororo as a lot older and mature than Cameron. Their relationship seemed off.
Now the thing with Khan, was more of Storm playing up to his attraction to her. Storm was in war, and was using all of the things at her advantage. I think Khan sorta understood that as well, even though he fell for Storm's charade. I don't think she was pining away after Khan.
Now her reconnecting with someone from her past, that she had feelings for a loooong, loonnng time ago, is not that unrealistic to me. So, I can see her and T'Challa either rekindling their past, or forging a new relationship. They are both at the same level in life. And maybe they won't get together. Either way, I think the exploration of the relationship isn't a bad thing. I just hope it will be written well.....(is Hudlin writing this though?)

[xmanson]

Just like all other pairings for other characters have "come out of nowhere." In fact, Storm had some sort of intimacy with two characters shortly after their creation in "X-Treme X-Men."

Like I said to someone else, what were your reactions to Storm's other relationships, especially to Slipstream and Khan? And what makes this so different?

The Khan thing was not really a relationship.. she was just using him.

Slipstream? She met the guy, had some fun with him and that was it. He was a romantic interest, they didn't have an actual relationship.

They didn't come up with an rushed excuse for her to leave a continent and her team to pair them up.

[crystalline green]

I think all of Storm relationships, with the possible exception of Forge, have been a little "forced". One gets the impression that writers have never really been interested in really exploring that dimension of her character and as a result with Storm we have this curious string of vaguely hinted at liasons (Wolverine, Callisto, Yukio, Slipstream etc) that seem to begin and end off panel. This lack of development, IMO, is one of the factors that has kept Storm from ever really seeming "real" and human. Most of her romantic entanglements have followed the same pattern -- usually some guy or superbad falling in love with her. We have yet to really be given a glimpse inside her heart or to see her actually fall in love or burn for someone (the closest I can remember her being in a mutual relationship was with Quicksilver in AOA). If the writers would take their time and craft a solid and mutual bond between Storm and BP I would be all for that.

[xmanson]

I think all of Storm relationships, with the possible exception of Forge, have been a little "forced". One gets the impression that writers have never really been interested in really exploring that dimension of her character and as a result with Storm we have this curious string of vaguely hinted at liasons (Wolverine, Callisto, Yukio, Slipstream etc) that seem to begin and end off panel. This lack of development, IMO, is one of the factors that has kept Storm from ever really seeming "real" and human. Most of her romantic entanglements have followed the same pattern -- usually some guy or superbad falling in love with her. We have yet to really be given a glimpse inside her heart or to see her actually fall in love or burn for someone (the closest I can remember her being in a mutual relationship was with Quicksilver in AOA). If the writers would take their time and craft a solid and mutual bond between Storm and BP I would be all for that.

I think this is a part of the charcater that never mattered much. She was so much more about duty, sacrifice and self quest than relationships and such.

[Smarty Jones]

"The Khan thing was not really a relationship.. she was just using him.

Slipstream? She met the guy, had some fun with him and that was it. He was a romantic interest, they didn't have an actual relationship.

They didn't come up with an rushed excuse for her to leave a continent and her team to pair them up."

No, Storm and Wolverine was FORCED.

It sounds like you're coming up with your own rationalizations, when the reality is there has been a much longer connection between Storm and The Black Panther than it was between Storm and Slipstream (another FORCED relationship).

I think suddenly turning Storm into a Jezebel for Khan sounds a lot more out of character for her than letting her explore a relationship with a character she's known for a long time.

"I think this is a part of the charcater that never mattered much. She was so much more about duty, sacrifice and self quest than relationships and such."

How much of an issue was this with Storm's previous relationships? She apparently put it to the side long enough to get involved with several characters, and share some dalliances with others. The only one where that thought could apply is with Forge.

I'm still trying to figure some of the rationalization people are coming up with against this relationship, because most of the logic is transparent and rather shoddy.

[LordAllMighty]

Smarty brutha.............I agree with every single thing you've said except Hudlin doing a bad job on BP.

Everything else? I completely agree with.

[Alan2099]

Still, even going by that, Storm is a black mutant that grew up as a theif and was worshipped as a goddess. If you want to match her up with someone of a similar race and background, you're going to have a heck of a time finding somebody.

Even ignoring the background, she's still a part of TWO minorities. Shes' black and she's a mutant. So you hook her up with a mutant, and you've got people complainign she's not with somebody whose black. Now you hook her up with a black guy, and he's not a mutant.

So if you really want to play up the race card, about the only person she could date would be Bishop.

Of course, all of this is completley ignroing her character, which a lot of the arguments on this thread seem to be doing.

Personally though, I wouldn't wish being written by Hudlin on any character, regardless of race, sexual prefernces, or whethere or not they wear Xs on their belt buckles.

[tangentman]

I don't object to either positive black relationships in the media OR seeing Storm with T'Challa. Do I resent Storm being away from UXM when I'd enjoyed her for the first time in years? Yes. Do I hate seeing Storm moved to an atrociously written Black Panther serie? Hell Yes!

I'm all in favor of Storm moving outside the "mutant ghetto" of the X-verse. The character could flourish in theory with that sort of move. I also think it's completely in character for Storm to leave the X-Men to defend her principles, and if she rekindles an old love, more power to Ororo and T'Challa. I just wish it wasn't THAT particular BP series...if only this could have happened in Priest's "Panther".

[xmanson]

No, Storm and Wolverine was FORCED.

It sounds like you're coming up with your own rationalizations, when the reality is there has been a much longer connection between Storm and The Black Panther than it was between Storm and Slipstream (another FORCED relationship).

I think suddenly turning Storm into a Jezebel for Khan sounds a lot more out of character for her than letting her explore a relationship with a character she's known for a long time.



How much of an issue was this with Storm's previous relationships? She apparently put it to the side long enough to get involved with several characters, and share some dalliances with others. The only one where that thought could apply is with Forge.

I'm still trying to figure some of the rationalization people are coming up with against this relationship, because most of the logic is transparent and rather shoddy.


Storm and Wolverine were teamates for years and never a couple. Check some VERY old issues of Uncanny where they hold hands and kiss, and that's it. It's what is happening now, no big deal.

There was no relationship with Slipstream... Jesus... did you actually read the issues? They flirt and that's it. The small time they spend together may be as much history as she has had with Tchalla. Did I like it? No. Does it bother me that much? No.


Again, NO relationship with Khan. Just seducing and using him for her purposes.


You sound like they made her leave her book and all the plots that were going on to simply out of nowhere, join a charcater she interacted in a single issue over 20 years ago and because of a plot that was completely ignored until 5 years ago for merely 2 issues... no, wait, you're actually praising that and saying all the rest is forced and this is a perfectly built relationship.

So, what is natural for you sounds rather contrived for me.Specially with the stupids retcons we got in the crossover a few months back.

[Cowlander]

I don't object to either positive black relationships in the media OR seeing Storm with T'Challa. Do I resent Storm being away from UXM when I'd enjoyed her for the first time in years? Yes. Do I hate seeing Storm moved to an atrociously written Black Panther serie? Hell Yes!

I'm all in favor of Storm moving outside the "mutant ghetto" of the X-verse. The character could flourish in theory with that sort of move. I also think it's completely in character for Storm to leave the X-Men to defend her principles, and if she rekindles an old love, more power to Ororo and T'Challa. I just wish it wasn't THAT particular BP series...if only this could have happened in Priest's "Panther".
I missed something ....

When was it stated she was being moved to Hudlins BP. IIRC she was being moved out of the way partly for the mini by EJD. Is there some interview I've missed or what?

EDIT: what did Cronin edit out?

[LordAllMighty]

I don't see anything contrived about having people who've known each other for years get together eventually.

I have a friend who's known his wife since he was 5 yrs old. They finally got married a couple years ago. Now this was after both of them had gone off and been married to other people and the like.

The re-found each other. Were they forced together? No they weren't. They knew each other once upon a time and eventually got together. Same thing with Storm and T'challa. Like Smarty says when all the reasonable things have been ruled out the only thing you have left to look at is people are just racist. And do not want to see this go down because of their own hidden racisms. I've always thought that Storm and BP getting together was just a natural occurance.

Well we don't have to like but thank god marvel is finally doing it. And yes i have no DOUBT that they'll screw it up anyway. Like they do everything else. I don't think it's out of character for storm to leave the x-men. She's done it before. Everyone does at some point. It's plain as day there in Xmen that was posted that you see she's not leaving FOR T'Challa. So that excuse you people are giving is a dead one. Come with another.

[Smarty Jones]

"Storm and Wolverine were teamates for years and never a couple. Check some VERY old issues of Uncanny where they hold hands and kiss, and that's it. It's what is happening now, no big deal."

The only time Storm and Wolverine showed anything remotely intimate prior to their dating was in "X-Men Annual 11," when both kissed in what they thought was surely going to be their final battle (vs. Horde). For the majority of the time, Wolverine was seen in relationships with the likes of Mariko Yashida and in a false marriage with Viper, when he wasn't pining after Jean Grey and rolling around with the likes of Domino and Mystique.

The point is there never seems to be an issue when Storm is dating other characters, and yet whenever this issue has come up on CBR there is a resistance about her dating a black male.

"There was no relationship with Slipstream... Jesus... did you actually read the issues? They flirt and that's it. The small time they spend together may be as much history as she has had with Tchalla. Did I like it? No. Does it bother me that much? No."

I read the issues in "X-Treme X-Men," where Storm is talking in a psychic conference with Grey and Storm is beaming that she was in love with Slipstream. Grey herself made the comment that Storm was "glowing" with joy, so evidently it was a relationship.

"You sound like they made her leave her book and all the plots that were going on to simply out of nowhere, join a charcater she interacted in a single issue over 20 years ago and because of a plot that was completely ignored until 5 years ago for merely 2 issues... no, wait, you're actually praising that and saying all the rest is forced and this is a perfectly built relationship."

The problem with your logic is there was a page that was scanned saying that Storm wanted to stay a part of The X-Men. She wanted her teammates sent with her to Africa, and Cyclops refused. What part of that did it say that Ororo was leaving the team because of The Black Panther? Also, hadn't Storm already had stepped away from the team prior to her conversation with Cyclops?

The problem is you have no problem with Storm suddenly showing interest in other characters and yet you have a problem with THIS ONE. Like it or not, the creators decide which characters get into a relationship.

I never said Storm and T'Challa was a "perfectly built relationship." However, you are talking about two characters with an established history since the late 1970s, one that suggested a romantic tension between them as teen-agers. That's not part of Reggie Hudlin's retcon, and in fact I have not even read Hudlin's work concerning T'Challa's and Storm's histories.

I feel a lot of comic book readers suffer from a subconscious racism (that not only applies to majority races, but minority members as well), in that they have been conditioned to think there is something wrong with seeing minority members together. Some people have it in their heads that if it's not at least one white person in a relationship then there is no interest, and even could be considered racist that two minorites are together.

When people start saying seeing Storm with one of the most respected characters in the Marvel Universe "makes my skin crawl," there is something else going on here beyond "Storm and T'Challa sitting in a tree."

[Alan2099]

I feel a lot of comic book readers suffer from a subconscious racism (that not only applies to majority races, but minority members as well), in that they have been conditioned to think there is something wrong with seeing minority members together. Some people have it in their heads that if it's not at least one white person in a relationship then there is no interest, and even could be considered racist that two minorites are together.
There's also people that insist whenever somebody critisizes black characters for whatever reason is being rascist.

Also, that doesn't explain why very few people object to Forge and Storm, both of them come from different minorities.

[Smarty Jones]

"There's also people that insist whenever somebody critisizes black characters for whatever reason is being rascist.

Also, that doesn't explain why very few people object to Forge and Storm, both of them come from different minorities."

That may be the case, but it understandably has to be questioned when it is harsher than what is warranted. If you can show me what about The Black Panther that "makes my skin crawl," as one poster said, go ahead.

As I said numerous times, there seems to be apprehension about showing monoracial minority couples together -- which does not apply to Storm and Forge. Like I said, in 2005 we shouldn't be having a discussion of why most minorities are not shown in relationships with people from their same racial background, and yet most white characters are.

[Smarty Jones]

"I don't see anything contrived about having people who've known each other for years get together eventually."

Don't you find it interesting that's the same logic some people used for Storm and Wolverine to date is being used against Storm and The Black Panther from dating?

[Alan2099]

Not really. it's all in the degree on how much you know somebody. She's known Wolverien for a long time. She's worked with him, she's been there for the best and worst times with him.

Black Panther she's just met a few times.

[Smarty Jones]

"Not really. it's all in the degree on how much you know somebody. She's known Wolverien for a long time. She's worked with him, she's been there for the best and worst times with him.

Black Panther she's just met a few times."

And of course you're assuming Storm never showed any romantic inclinations around The Black Panther, which we know is incorrect. Storm was shown apparently attracted to T'Challa in "Marvel Team-Up 100" and it evidently was true in "Black Panther 25-27," when she went to Wakanda to help him through his diplomatic tiff with the Deviant Lemurians.

Maybe because these events didn't happen in an X-Men comic is the reason some people on the X-board feel T'Challa and Storm getting together is "forced," but this is not the case of characters who never shown any romantic interest suddenly hooking up.

And of course we know there wasn't some romantic tension between Storm and Wolverine for the vast majority of their 25-plus years together in The X-Men, unless "Ororo" is Swahili for "Jean Grey."

[Brian Cronin]

EDIT: what did Cronin edit out?

Nothing of substance.

-Brian

[Alan2099]

And of course we know there wasn't some romantic tension between Storm and Wolverine for the vast majority of their 25-plus years together in The X-Men, unless "Ororo" is Swahili for "Jean Grey."
And of course we also know there hasn't been any romantic tension with Black Panther for the vast majority of Storm's 25 plus years.

[LordAllMighty]

Why is it so hard for you guys to acknowledge that Storm and BP have had a lovejones for years? lol it's not brand new. It's not like this was just MADE up last month.

This lol..........this is just somethin else.......lmao

[Tennoarashi]

And of course you're assuming Storm never showed any romantic inclinations around The Black Panther, which we know is incorrect. Storm was shown apparently attracted to T'Challa in "Marvel Team-Up 100" and it evidently was true in "Black Panther 25-27," when she went to Wakanda to help him through his diplomatic tiff with the Deviant Lemurians.

Maybe because these events didn't happen in an X-Men comic is the reason some people on the X-board feel T'Challa and Storm getting together is "forced," but this is not the case of characters who never shown any romantic interest suddenly hooking up.I don't feel that it's forced because it didn't happen in an X-Book. I think it feels forced because it's only been mentioned in those two instances before this push into fruition.

If these two are going to get together, there had better be a total rehaul of the new ghetto-BP, as well as alot of scenes of them talking through the major drastic changes they've gone through in their lives. Instead, we're getting re-written history.

[xmanson]

Nothing of substance.

-Brian

Well....


And making Storm leave the X-Men with that reasonig shown on Day After was ridiculous, since she has not showed any of that particular line of thought since she returned to the mansion. That's why is forced. Disagreeing with Scott is one thing, being an ass and leaving is another. And it's her team, she just had to ask and they would go.


I have no problem with this couple if things just didn't pop out of nowhere (and yes, they did).

We have a Marvel Team UP from 25 years ago, 2 issues from 5 years ago - and now 2 issues with charcaters so horribly written (and apparently retconning previous issues) that I wish I never had read them and that's supposed to be a perfectly built relationship? She loves Tchalla so much and we never ever saw her mention it this whole time?

And you see way too much in the Logan thing... and comparing their interaction with Tchalla is just not knowing your material.

[Smarty Jones]

"And of course we also know there hasn't been any romantic tension with Black Panther for the vast majority of Storm's 25 plus years."

And yet when the two characters have been seen together there always was this romantic tension.

Wolverine and Storm -- characters being seen together prominently for years (mostly because of editorial purposes) without any romantic tenstion for the most part.

T'Challa and Storm -- characters who were not seen together that often (mostly because of editorial purposes) but when they have there has been romantic tension.

I see a big difference there.

[Smarty Jones]

"And you see way too much in the Logan thing... and comparing their interaction with Tchalla is just not knowing your material."

So prior to showing them as a couple, when did Wolverine and Storm displayed these romantic feelings for each other? When Wolverine was married to Mariko Yashida and Viper? When he had his series of one-night stands? Between all the years of Logan's flirtation and fascination with Jean Grey?

The same with Storm.

The fact is you're trying to justify one relationship based on the fact Storm and Wolverine have been in the same book for decades, even though for the most part there never was such an inclination. Yet you're trying to admonish Storm and T'Challa being a couple, even though the few times they have been together there has been romantic tension.

[Smarty Jones]

"And making Storm leave the X-Men with that reasonig shown on Day After was ridiculous, since she has not showed any of that particular line of thought since she returned to the mansion. That's why is forced. Disagreeing with Scott is one thing, being an ass and leaving is another. And it's her team, she just had to ask and they would go."

What line of thought? That Storm actually wanted to be in the continent where she grew up and lived for years before joining The X-Men?

And I'm sorry, but where was Storm being an ass? She was drawn even looking sorrowful over having to make the decision. If anything, it was Cyclops who looked inflexible, because he wanted to keep all the X-Men sequestered in the same place like chickens while The Sentinels were guarding them.

Sorry, but you're reading way too much into that, to the point it doesn't even sound like you're trying to be objective.

[xmanson]

What line of thought? That Storm actually wanted to be in the continent where she grew up and lived for years before joining The X-Men?

And I'm sorry, but where was Storm being an ass? She was drawn even looking sorrowful over having to make the decision. If anything, it was Cyclops who looked inflexible, because he wanted to keep all the X-Men sequestered in the same place like chickens while The Sentinels were guarding them.

Sorry, but you're reading way too much into that, to the point it doesn't even sound like you're trying to be objective.

It's a very hard time to mutantkind, the mansion is a mess and she just decided to leave... her going to Africa is actually a good thing in my opinion, but the context in which it was done was very poor. I don't mind the idea, but really disliked the execution.

And the Sentinels hadn't arrived yet by the time of their conversation.

[tangentman]

Brian, if it was so "insubstantial", why did you feel the need to edit it out? Unless calling that particular person out on his own generalizations was somehow "shallow"?

[Christopher O]

It's a very hard time to mutantkind, the mansion is a mess and she just decided to leave... her going to Africa is actually a good thing in my opinion, but the context in which it was done was very poor. I don't mind the idea, but really disliked the execution.
There was nothing poor about the way she left. Africa has former and current mutants--nevermind the millions of baseline humans--in need of protection, too. If anyone showed poor behavior in that scene, it was Cyclops.

[xmanson]

Brian, if it was so "insubstantial", why did you feel the need to edit it out? Unless calling that particular person out on his own generalizations was somehow "shallow"?


It was just me admitting I'm a racist because that's the only reason someone can have to object to this. :rolleyes:

[xmanson]

There was nothing poor about the way she left. Africa has former and current mutants--nevermind the millions of baseline humans--in need of protection, too. If anyone showed poor behavior in that scene, it was Cyclops.

Which was very poorly written for both of them. It's done now, but we can argue how well the characters were portrayed, and I don't believe it was done well. But in the end is all pointless, anyway...



It's been fun but I guess we covered all the points and still disagree... so that's kinda it...

[heretic]

Several posters here seem to miss the fact that most readers are reacting to a perceived shoehorning of two characters with little in common save being from the same continent. This post (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=2380364&postcount=4828) sums up my observation of the whole T'Challa/Ororo 'shipper thing in detail.

HTG

[david r]

Wolverine and Storm -- characters being seen together prominently for years (mostly because of editorial purposes) without any romantic tenstion for the most part.


Claremont has hinted to some sexual tension between Wolverine and Storm in his 17-year run. In Uncanny X-Men #245, Logan planted one on Ororo in front of everybody. In Uncanny X-Men #246, Ororo entered Logan's room wearing very revealing clothing. I had a friend at that time, 1989, who was adamanent that they'd had sex!!!

I don't think they ever have had sex. But there has been a seed planted by Claremont that Ororo and Logan had some "interest" in each other. I admit it was a small seed. But when taken in context with how he's written them both in the recent UXM and X-Men: The End, I have to wonder if CC intended for them to hook up.

As for T'Challa, I'm going to pretty much ignore what is happening in Black Panther. I feel the only reason this whole Ororo/T'Challa pairing is even happening is because of Marvel wanting to boost sales on the BP book. And what better way than to bring lots of X-Men fans over to see this "marriage/Event" take place?