CBR NEWS: Warren Ellis/Marvel Press Conference, NEWUNIVERSAL announced [Archive]

o1pickleboy

12-08-2005, 12:06 PM

So Ultimate New Universe? How lamn can you get?

The New Universe I'm seeing in Exiles and I'm sure we'll see in Amazing Fantasy is COOL AS HELL. Why throw it away?

Oh yeah, that's right, Ellis is popular and has clout to do what ever the hell he wants. He doens't want continuity? throw it out the window! Walk all over the past with it's unrealised poptencial.

Who's going to care? Me for one.

RAGE

Oh and for the record, I never read any New Universe titles when it was new, my first intro was the Exiles issues, and the universe I'm seeing there looks chock full of potencial. Now it's being WASTED for some creator and his "I don't care about other's past work" attitude.

Well in his defense, the New Universe has been off the map for a decade. I sure the exiles visit was pre arranged hype for Ellis's project. The in continuity New Universe is a mess totally screw up.(pittsburg was destroyed) So the revamp was needed . Maybe it will respark interest for the New Universe like Supreme Power did. There is talk of new Squadron Supreme projects thanks to JMS. Give it time and maybe you will get the real New Universe back on the comic rack(hopeful with a good writer though, because it was a hellof mess)

Expletive Deleted

12-08-2005, 12:06 PM

Is Ellis EVER going to finish the Iron Man Extremis storyline? Or is that just like, over at part 4 of 6?I'm pretty sure Ellis's work isn't the rate limiting step, there.

Expletive Deleted

12-08-2005, 12:11 PM

Oh and for the record, I never read any New Universe titles when it was new, my first intro was the Exiles issues, and the universe I'm seeing there looks chock full of potencial. Now it's being WASTED for some creator and his "I don't care about other's past work" attitude.The Exiles version, as far as I'm aware, isn't exactly straight out of the old continuity. Or if it is, there's time travel involved.

I mean, if you really want to stick with New U's original continuity, you need to factor in stuff like The Pitt, The War, Starblast . . . for the love of Gruenwald, STARBLAST!

Some degree of rebooting is just flat-out necessary.

Expletive Deleted

12-08-2005, 12:12 PM

Fine and all but why can't the talent work on increasing the quality/popularity of running books rather than making MORE books?Variety is the spice of life.

The Adventurer

12-08-2005, 12:15 PM

The Exiles version, as far as I'm aware, isn't exactly straight out of the old continuity. Or if it is, there's time travel involved..

It's not THEE New Univese, but one only a year after the paranormal started making there appearance. But that right there is a perfect way to pick back up on the regular New Universe, cut all the late series crap and get back to the basics.

Having it set in 1986 is an added bonus, there arn't enough "Period" superhero comics, they're all in a perpectual "now". One set in the 80s where time moves forward at a set rate would be very fresh.

BlackKnight

12-08-2005, 12:20 PM

Expletive Deleted

12-08-2005, 12:22 PM

I'm not sure I see the difference between rebooting from the start and rebooting from a year along, from a "respect for continuity" standpoint.

Expletive Deleted

12-08-2005, 12:24 PM

Once again so Ellis does not have to deal with continuum.Would you want him to?

This way, he gets to have his fun, his fans stay happy, and the folks who would be upset by the changes to the "real" Boom-Boom and Captain Marvel don't get their panties in a twist.

Everybody wins.

The Adventurer

12-08-2005, 12:30 PM

Kevinroc

12-08-2005, 12:35 PM

Would you want him to?

This way, he gets to have his fun, his fans stay happy, and the folks who would be upset by the changes to the "real" Boom-Boom and Captain Marvel don't get their panties in a twist.

Everybody wins.

This is the internet. People will find something to complain about.

Case in point:

But the whole point of the Marvel Universe is to have a SHARED UNIVERSE

If you don't want to take part in a shared universe create a series that takes place in it's own universe.

The New Universe is the same way, why use the New Universe name and characters if you're going to create something that's NOT the NEW UNIVERSE.

And I can't believe I'm seeing this about The New Universe.

CyberCoyote

12-08-2005, 12:36 PM

I'm not sure I see the difference between rebooting from the start and rebooting from a year along, from a "respect for continuity" standpoint.

A lack of desire to bother with other writers' continuity :)

Expletive Deleted

12-08-2005, 12:40 PM

A lack of desire to bother with other writers' continuity :)That's what I'm saying, though. Either way, you're ignoring somebody's continuity.

Expletive Deleted

12-08-2005, 12:42 PM

If you don't want to take part in a shared universe create a series that takes place in it's own universe.That's effectively what he's doing, isn't it? He's just using shared universe characters as source material.

Would you rather have Ellis-ized versions of these characters in the mainline MU, or would you rather have them off doing their own thing where those who wish to can enjoy them and where you can safely ignore the whole thing if you so choose?

The Adventurer

12-08-2005, 12:46 PM

I'd rather have Ellis not on properties he didn't create. He always runs those into the ground with his writting. Completely missing the point of characters and settings 9 times out of 10.

He is however Gangbusters on anything he creates himself from scratch.

Expletive Deleted

12-08-2005, 12:48 PM

So . . . if he misses the point of the characters, isn't it a relatively good thing he's not doing it in the shared universe?

Pex the Unalive

12-08-2005, 12:56 PM

Expect "Newuniversal" to be launched near the end of next summer, tying in with collections of the old books.

Collections of the old titles? I mean, I'll probably check Newuniversal out, but it's this news that's the most exciting for me. Old-school DP7 and Psi-Force ruled! :)

BlackKnight

12-08-2005, 12:56 PM

So . . . if he misses the point of the characters, isn't it a relatively good thing he's not doing it in the shared universe?

The problem is he never said he was not using the shared universe versions of Monica, Boom-Boom and such only that they would operate in their own corner of the MU.

What that tells me is he wants to affect the MU charaters but not have to worry about the continuum they had before.

Jake V

12-08-2005, 01:02 PM

What that tells me is he wants to affect the MU charaters but not have to worry about the continuum they had before.
And the problem with that is what? I mean, he's using freaking Boom-Boom. Who really cares what happens to her?

The Adventurer

12-08-2005, 01:07 PM

BlackKnight

12-08-2005, 01:09 PM

And the problem with that is what? I mean, he's using freaking Boom-Boom. Who really cares what happens to her?

My problem is not with the charaters he is using but the fact that if you are not going to use the history of charaters why use those charaters, why not just create all new charaters and do what you want with them, instead of saying, well Monica, Machine Man, and the others suck so therefore I am going to do what I want.

Jake V

12-08-2005, 01:10 PM

Well, not Boom Boom, she's always been a hollow character. Atleast as far as I can tell. I may have missed something important about the character.

It's Machine Man, Photon, and Bloodstone (well...the female Bloodstone doesn't have much history, but her Dad did) are the real issue.
What do you think he's gonna do to them? Kill them? Retroactively rape them?

Nextwave will run 12 issues, maybe 24, and when it's over the characters will probably be in the same condition they were when the book started. I don't understand the concern.

Jake V

12-08-2005, 01:11 PM

My problem is not with the charaters he is using but the fact that if you are not going to use the history of charaters why use those charaters, why not just create all new charaters and do what you want with them, instead of saying, well Monica, Machine Man, and the others suck so therefore I am going to do what I want.
Don't read the book then. Problem solved.

BlackKnight

12-08-2005, 01:14 PM

What do you think he's gonna do to them? Kill them? Retroactively rape them?

Nextwave will run 12 issues, maybe 24, and when it's over the characters will probably be in the same condition they were when the book started. I don't understand the concern.

Pick your favorite charater, then imagine a writer is disregarding all the great stories that he/she has had, in favor of the writers ideas because said writer does not want to be bothered with continuum.

Also, I think you are missing the point it has nothing to do with the charaters but the fact that the writer wants nothing to do with MU continuum so why write with charaters that have it.

Cayman

12-08-2005, 01:15 PM

It sounds pretty cool, kind of like Ellis's own Seven Soldiers.

And I like the word "poptencial". :D

Cay

The Adventurer

12-08-2005, 01:15 PM

Well I'm not.

But that doesn't erase it's existence.

I'm just tired of big name creators being in a position to push all new chraracters and genres on the comic reading public and instead just rehash old forgoten consepts and not being respectful to what little history they have.

Warren Ellis should be wowing us with incredible science fiction tales that don't have a single spandex wearing crimefighter in sight. Because that's what he's awesome at. But Marvel never proposses such things because they're scared of innovation.

BlackKnight

12-08-2005, 01:15 PM

Don't read the book then. Problem solved.

I won't be reading the book. Just find it stupid that someone who has said before in interviews he does not like superheroes, and wants nothing to do with continuum would be writing in a gener that has superheroes and a big part of the appeal is the continuum since comics are serial.

But hey whatever floats your boat. :rolleyes:

EmmettHULK

12-08-2005, 01:19 PM

But why doesn't he use original characters then?
If he wants to be free of the "constraints" of continuity, why does he have to use characters that have an established "life" and history?
That "little corner of the U" comment seems like an excuse so nobody complains in case he messes up the characters.
That way he can still use known characters and mess up with them but without getting any flak...
In any case, I like some of Ellis's stuff, but I don't like anything that I have read about Nextwave so far

Jake V

12-08-2005, 01:19 PM

Pick your favorite charater, then imagine a writer is disregarding all the great stories that he/she has had, in favor of the writers ideas because said writer does not want to be bothered with continuum.
It happens every goddamn week with the Spider-Man books. And guess what? I don't bother with reading them. I've got my back-issues, I've got the fun Ultimate version. I don't bother with stuff I don't like, and I certainly don't waste energy bitching about things I can never change.

Tadhg

12-08-2005, 01:22 PM

Warren Ellis should be wowing us with incredible science fiction tales that don't have a single spandex wearing crimefighter in sight. Because that's what he's awesome at. But Marvel never proposses such things because they're scared of innovation.

That and they know they won't sell as well as rehashes. Ellis's incredible science fiction tales that don't have a single spendex wearing crimefighter in sight? They sell 20,000 copies at most; NewUniversal will be 2-3 times that, easy.

Tadhg

12-08-2005, 01:24 PM

BlackKnight

12-08-2005, 01:24 PM

It happens every goddamn week with the Spider-Man books. And guess what? I don't bother with reading them. I've got my back-issues, I've got the fun Ultimate version. I don't bother with stuff I don't like, and I certainly don't waste energy bitching about things I can never change.

Really, you bitch about people bitching all the time and you can't change that. LOL

Whatever Jake, I am not going to argue a point that you refuse to understand.

BlackKnight

12-08-2005, 01:24 PM

Ultimate Line, All-Star line, Legion Reboots, Squadron Supreme, etc.

It's certainly nothing to get angry about.

I hate to tell you this but none of those take place in the same universe, they are universal reboots. :rolleyes:

Tadhg

12-08-2005, 01:26 PM

I hate to tell you this but none of those take place in the same universe, they are universal reboots. :rolleyes:

So it's the lack of an "Elseworlds" that's got you riled up? Put one on yourself. Really, ignore it, it won't kill you.

By the way, the use of the rolly-eyes emoticon is annoying.

Expletive Deleted

12-08-2005, 01:27 PM

We're veering off into personal attacks, here.

Reign it in, folks. Talk about the topic, not each other.

And BK, if you could lay off the rolleyes emoticon, that'd be really great.

Thanks.

Jake V

12-08-2005, 01:27 PM

Really, you bitch about people bitching all the time and you can't change that. LOL

Whatever Jake, I am not going to argue a point that you refuse to understand.
Oh, I've changed things in that area, believe me. Of course, you don't notice, because the complainers aren't around anymore. :)

The Adventurer

12-08-2005, 01:29 PM

That and they know they won't sell as well as rehashes. Ellis's incredible science fiction tales that don't have a single spendex wearing crimefighter in sight? They sell 20,000 copies at most; NewUniversal will be 2-3 times that, easy.

Small steps. Small steps.

In this world where name creators seem to be what sell the most books over characters or god help us, consepts, it's these big names who should be on books taking chances with new main stream genres. Ellis, Gaiman, Mark Miller, Bendis, etc...should not be working on established named properties that will sell just fine with other writers. They should be pushing the limits of genre fiction. Because that's where they all became big names, not doing the same superhero comics over and over again.

BlackKnight

12-08-2005, 01:29 PM

We're veering off into personal attacks, here.

Reign it in, folks. Talk about the topic, not each other.

And BK, if you could lay off the rolleyes emoticon, that'd be really great.

Thanks.

Sure no prob.

Expletive Deleted

12-08-2005, 01:31 PM

Much appreciated.

The Adventurer

12-08-2005, 01:31 PM

I hate to tell you this but none of those take place in the same universe, they are universal reboots. :rolleyes:

Also, Legion of Super-Heroes is probibly the only reboot that got it right. Since the Legion has never really been about the characters and thier individual histories rather the Team itself and its adventures. As long as the classic names and costumes are the same it's still the same title as before.

the new Legion rocks. One of the few exceptions to the rule.

Dave Cote

12-08-2005, 01:53 PM

Collections of the old titles? I mean, I'll probably check Newuniversal out, but it's this news that's the most exciting for me. Old-school DP7 and Psi-Force ruled! :)
I also am excited about collections of the original New Universe I loved Starbrand!!

Rich L

12-08-2005, 02:17 PM

I also am excited about collections of the original New Universe I loved Starbrand!!

Me too - and I may be the only person alive who'll admit to liking Spitfire and the Troubleshooters...

Personally I'm excited to see what Ellis has in store for the New U - its been out of print for about 15 years, brought back a bit through Quasar and Starblast and things like that (at least until Exiles) and yet people bemoan the fact that they're not getting 'their' New Universe? Face reality here, guys: you were never going to get that New Universe again; it couldn't sell enough to stay in print in a time when books sold ten times what they do now. What on earth makes you think it'd sell now?

At least this way we get a version of the books, and free of stuff that most people picking the books up won't have read.

That said, these reprints and the New Universe event sound like a lot of fun for old-school NewU fans...and there's something I thought I'd never say!

Ryan Day

12-08-2005, 02:36 PM

I won't be reading the book. Just find it stupid that someone who has said before in interviews he does not like superheroes

I don't believe he's ever said that, actually. I've seen him complain about generic and unimaginative superheroes, and he certainly doesn't like them dominating the medium, but I've never read an interview where he actually says he doesn't like them at all.

There may well be one, but I've never seen it.

a big part of the appeal is the continuum since comics are serial.

That doesn't really follow. Comics may be serial, but there's nothing that says they all have to be inter-related. I can understand such a complaint when it comes to something like Nextwave, but this is the New Universe: A line of books that was cancelled 20 years ago and hasn't existed since in any significant form since.

Re-writing parts of long-cancelled series is pretty much standard: DC changed all the Charlton stuff, and even Marvel retconned their Golden Age characters once the Silver Age rolled around.

The Adventurer

12-08-2005, 02:39 PM

That doesn't really follow. Comics may be serial, but there's nothing that says they all have to be inter-related. I can understand such a complaint when it comes to something like Nextwave, but this is the New Universe: A line of books that was cancelled 20 years ago and hasn't existed since in any significant form since.

I'm pretty sure he's talking about Next Wave. Basicly because comics as a medium are ongoing stories the whole idea that they have these back historys that go on for years is part of their appeal.

You don't see long running TV shows reconning a character just because it suits the current episode's plot.

BlackKnight

12-08-2005, 02:47 PM

I'm pretty sure he's talking about Next Wave. Basicly because comics as a medium are ongoing stories the whole idea that they have these back historys that go on for years is part of their appeal.

You don't see long running TV shows reconning a character just because it suits the current episode's plot.

Exactly, I am referring to Nextwave, not the New Universe.

Also Adventurer hit the nail on the head with what I am getting at.

Ivan Isaacs

12-08-2005, 04:10 PM

An ongoing series of guys wearing 80ties outfits would last how long? 4 issues?
I mean it's okay for a geek moment in "Exiles" but as a series?

If the NU get's the "Supreme Power" treatment there is nothing wrong with it IMO.
If Ellis however decides to just ignore established continuity and sets it in the regular universe (for crossovers with the 616 Universe) as "the real deal" then things should get... complicated.

Adam Crocker

12-08-2005, 04:25 PM

Fine and all but why can't the talent work on increasing the quality/popularity of running books rather than making MORE books? :(

Because he likes working on new or neglected ideas that give him more of a free hand to do stuff than working on an established character like say...Spiderman.

Typical Ellis, I don't like continuum so I am going to throw it away so i can do some thing "fresh". Notice what he said about Nextwave that it will be in its own little corner of the MU. Once again so Ellis does not have to deal with continuum. If he does not want to write a comic in the MU why is he?

See above. Plus he stated he enjoys the challenge of reworking an existing property that's been neglected.

That and Marvel likes to renew it's unused copyrights every few years.

(That and New Universe sells more reworked by a writer with an established audience than its old form which hasn't done much of anything in the past several years or so. Asking why they just don't do it the old way misses the point, this way will sell more.)

I'm pretty sure he's talking about Next Wave. Basicly because comics as a medium are ongoing stories the whole idea that they have these back historys that go on for years is part of their appeal.

No they aren't. Marvel and DC superhero comics (and a few Vertigo titles, but mostly it's just Hellblazer now) feature ongoing stories with back histories that go on for years, but not comics as a whole. That is part of the appeal of mainstream superhero comics, though I admit it's more a niche appeal than anything else.

You don't see long running TV shows reconning a character just because it suits the current episode's plot.

How many TV shows though have run as long as twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty years though? Not any of the situational comedies or dramas. They mostly tend to be things like game shows, sketch comedy shows, or talk shows of some sort. Moreover, how many TV shows actually exist in a shared fictional universe with several other TV shows and have to deal with all these years of continuity?

These retcons tend to occur precisely because of the tension between this build up of existing continuity over the years and the desire and/or necessity to rework old ideas to keep them moving.

(Of course even then that ignores that no one was actually keeping track of continuity back in the day. I just read Action Comics #1, where in it Superman was not taken in by the Kents but found and raised in an orphanage.)

Though what I find funny though is that the complaint has been raised that Ellis is engaged in retcon, when so far he hasn't actually presented anything that outright washes away the characters' past histories. He simply isn't going to reference them.

Alistair

12-08-2005, 04:47 PM

But the whole point of the Marvel Universe is to have a SHARED UNIVERSE

And here was me thinking the whole point of the Marvel Universe was to have great comics that were fun to read.

Foolish of me to think so, really.

protege

12-08-2005, 04:51 PM

I won't be reading the book. Just find it stupid that someone who has said before in interviews he does not like superheroes, and wants nothing to do with continuum would be writing in a gener that has superheroes and a big part of the appeal is the continuum since comics are serial.

But hey whatever floats your boat. :rolleyes:
That's why I'm not picking up Nextwave- but i can't fathom what Brian Bendis is doing here, when he's basically said the same thing.

Joe Rice

12-08-2005, 04:51 PM

And here was me thinking the whole point of the Marvel Universe was to have great comics that were fun to read.

Foolish of me to think so, really.

BUT EVERYTHING MUST FIT IT IS A PUZZLE NOT A STORY NO NOT SOMETHING NEW OH NO RESPECT THE FICTIONAL CHARACTERS PLEASE

Jake V

12-08-2005, 04:52 PM

That's why I'm not picking up Nextwave- but i can't fathom what Brian Bendis is doing here, when he's basically said the same thing.
Bendis has nothing to do with any of these projects.

Alistair

12-08-2005, 04:55 PM

Basicly because comics as a medium are ongoing stories the whole idea that they have these back historys that go on for years is part of their appeal.

Why? Why is this the prevalent view? Comics as a medium are not ongoing stories. Superheroes as a genre are often ongoing stories. Sprawling, multi-decade epics can be great, sure, but look at ASTRO CITY or INVINCIBLE - brilliant books with only a couple dozen issues each under their belts. Heck, the best comic I've read all year is SCOTT PILGRIM, and that's only two books long so far. The continuity is not a key element.

You love the rich tapestry of the Marvel Universe. That's great; so do I, in fact. But the thought that that's all we should see or all that should be done with these ideas is scary. Think about it - Stan Lee was coming up with crazy, wild, off-the-wall stuff every single month. He never stopped to think "Well, gee, that Magneto guy was good, we should stick to him." - if he had, we'd never have had the Juggernaut, or the Sentinels, or any of the other classic X-villains. Marvel was founded on the principle of throwing caution to the wind, experimenting, always trying something new. The idea that Marvel should limit itself to anything is completely anathema to its existence - or at the very least, it should be.

After all, isn't that what this crazy, bastard medium, still finding its place, is all about? The new thing?

Titan Slade

12-08-2005, 04:58 PM

Why? Why is this the prevalent view? Comics as a medium are not ongoing stories. Superheroes as a genre are often ongoing stories. Sprawling, multi-decade epics can be great, sure, but look at ASTRO CITY or INVINCIBLE - brilliant books with only a couple dozen issues each under their belts. Heck, the best comic I've read all year is SCOTT PILGRIM, and that's only two books long so far. The continuity is not a key element.

You love the rich tapestry of the Marvel Universe. That's great; so do I, in fact. But the thought that that's all we should see or all that should be done with these ideas is scary. Think about it - Stan Lee was coming up with crazy, wild, off-the-wall stuff every single month. He never stopped to think "Well, gee, that Magneto guy was good, we should stick to him." - if he had, we'd never have had the Juggernaut, or the Sentinels, or any of the other classic X-villains. Marvel was founded on the principle of throwing caution to the wind, experimenting, always trying something new. The idea that Marvel should limit itself to anything is completely anathema to its existence - or at the very least, it should be.

After all, isn't that what this crazy, bastard medium, still finding its place, is all about? The new thing?

Preach on my brother, preach on to all the continuity sinners :D .

StoneGold

12-08-2005, 05:08 PM

Does Ellis doing these mean that the New Universe never happened? Does it mean that a New Universe book was cancelled? Does it affect the likeliness of any future New Universe stories? No? He's just reusing some names and concepts so that Marvel gets to keep the trademark on Kickers, Inc?

THEN SHUT UP!!!

Jake V

12-08-2005, 05:11 PM

protege

12-08-2005, 05:13 PM

Bendis has nothing to do with any of these projects.
I'm not saying he did, but it's been stated on various other threads about his disdain for costumed heroes, which leads me to wonder why guys like him and Elllis are working in this industry.

ChildOfTheDarkholde

12-08-2005, 05:15 PM

You don't see long running TV shows reconning a character just because it suits the current episode's plot.

Ever heard of soaps?

The Adventurer

12-08-2005, 05:15 PM

BUT EVERYTHING MUST FIT IT IS A PUZZLE NOT A STORY NO NOT SOMETHING NEW OH NO RESPECT THE FICTIONAL CHARACTERS PLEASE

Sigh, you just don't understand.

As a writer myself it just appals me that this kind of stuff goes on. It makes me wonder what jackhole is going to skrew with my creations 10 or 20 years down the line in the name of convinence.

StoneGold

12-08-2005, 05:16 PM

well, they were all cancelled.
You're right, that wiley bastard Ellis somehow time travelled back to 1987 to cancel the New Universe line so that he could piss off the nerd boys by writing different characters with the same name some some 20 years later.

And that's why calling it the New Universe sucks, because when you try typing the new New Universe, the brain says no.

Jake V

12-08-2005, 05:16 PM

I'm not saying he did, but it's been stated on various other threads about his disdain for costumed heroes, which leads me to wonder why guys like him and Elllis are working in this industry.
Find some proof that Bendis said that he doesn't like superheros.

Hell, find some proof that Ellis said that he doesn't like superheros. Cuz he never did. Disliking superhero comics isn't disliking superheroes themselves.

The Adventurer

12-08-2005, 05:17 PM

Ever heard of soaps?

Yes, and they are a prime example of ongoing stories that just add to themselfs.

Not saying Soaps don't suck.

Other good examples, Stargate SG-1. 10 years on and with a spin off show, and things set up in season one still apply today.

StoneGold

12-08-2005, 05:17 PM

Sigh, you just don't understand.

As a writer myself it just appals me that this kind of stuff goes on. It makes me wonder what jackhole is going to skrew with my creations 10 or 20 years down the line in the name of convinence.
Simple. Don't write for a corporate entity then. You won't have to worry about it, because the characters will be yours.

StoneGold

12-08-2005, 05:19 PM

Other good examples, Stargate SG-1. 10 years on and with a spin off show, and things set up in season one still apply today.
Lousy example. SG1 wasn't cancelled for 20 years before they decided to do another one. Really, far more similiar to Battlestar Galactica, if you want to keep to nerdom.

The Adventurer

12-08-2005, 05:20 PM

The Adventurer

12-08-2005, 05:22 PM

Lousy example. SG1 wasn't cancelled for 20 years before they decided to do another one. Really, far more similiar to Battlestar Galactica, if you want to keep to nerdom.

I...er...

Well shazbot, the NEW BSG is easily the best show on television, while it's predisesor is mearly nostolgic 70s silliness.

So that's one remake I love.

So my self rigious argument has taken a blow.

ChildOfTheDarkholde

12-08-2005, 05:22 PM

Yes, and they are a prime example of ongoing stories that just add to themselfs.

U kidding?
Those are the best examples of long-running shows that completely "retcon" revamp, and reconfigure plot elements, characters and previously established events, all depending on many trivial things.
Heck, sometimes a silly thing like an actor's availability will cause retroactivechanges to be made to long-established plots and situations...

Titan Slade

12-08-2005, 05:22 PM

Sigh, you just don't understand.

As a writer myself it just appals me that this kind of stuff goes on. It makes me wonder what jackhole is going to skrew with my creations 10 or 20 years down the line in the name of convinence.

Bwahahahahaha..................................... :D :D you have never written any sh!+ that ever got published, nice try though. And if you create characters for Marvel, you do not own them, so you can't say anything about what they decide to do with them :rolleyes: .

The Adventurer

12-08-2005, 05:24 PM

And if you craete characters for Marvel, you do not own them, so you can't say anything about what they decide to do with them :rolleyes: .

No kidding. :rolleyes: And while it wouldn't bother me for others to work with a creation of mine, skrewing around with it's basics would bug the heck out of me.

Not enough that I don't want to work at Marvel someday, but enough make me sigh in anger if it happened someday in the far future.

StoneGold

12-08-2005, 05:25 PM

Where's the fun in that? where's the money in that?

The big companies are nessisary for main stream sales and name reconision. So if I ever break in I'll be chugging out as many truly new and innovative consepts as they'll let me. Because I want COMICS to expand.

Granted I'll never sell off my magnum opus, that'd be silly.
You play the game, you play by the rules. You do work for hire, you don't own the product, you don't bitch when someone changes it further down the line. Seriously, you think Jim Shooter of all people is going to bitch that Ellis is using a name he came up with?

Seriously, if you really plan on doing work for hire, you're going to need to learn to grow a set.

Titan Slade

12-08-2005, 05:26 PM

No kidding. :rolleyes: And while it wouldn't bother me for others to work with a creation of mine, skrewing around with it's basics would bug the heck out of me.

Not enough that I don't want to work at Marvel someday, but enough make me sigh in anger if it happened someday in the far future.

So why fret over something that is out of your hands :confused: .

protege

12-08-2005, 05:30 PM

Ever heard of soaps?
Damn, i wanted to say that.

protege

12-08-2005, 05:31 PM

Find some proof that Bendis said that he doesn't like superheros.

Hell, find some proof that Ellis said that he doesn't like superheros. Cuz he never did. Disliking superhero comics isn't disliking superheroes themselves.
well then, what's all this kafuffle about bendis and costumed identities?

Jake V

12-08-2005, 05:41 PM

well then, what's all this kafuffle about bendis and costumed identities?
He wrote a really good story about a character that has been notoriously lax about keeping his identity secret and how this laziness led to his secret getting out.

Playing with the conventions of the genre and pointing out how silly some of them are doesn't equal a hate of the whole thing.

I mean, jeez, have you read Ultimate Spider-Man? The book is dripping with love for superheros, the last arc especially.

Charles RB

12-08-2005, 05:53 PM

Ellis, Gaiman, Mark Miller, Bendis, etc...should not be working on established named properties that will sell just fine with other writers. They should be pushing the limits of genre fiction.

Yes, but Warren Ellis needs to pay his rent, unfortunately. There's a reason that when he started working for Marvel on UFF, he called it his Year of Whoredom.

And frankly, Nextwave wouldn't sell just fine with other writers. The cast of that comic are all characters that hardly writes for or is interested in. When was the last time anyone even remembered Machine Man or Elsa Bloodstone existed? That's likely what the appeal is for Ellis- because these are little-used characters no-one cares about that have no real brand to them, he can do more with them than he can with, say, Iron Man.

How many TV shows though have run as long as twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty years though? Not any of the situational comedies or dramas.

Well, quite a few soap operas have lasted twenty, thirty years or more- but they always ended up with characters coming and going as actors come and go, whereas Iron Man is always going to have Tony Stark in it being Iron Man. The one exception would be Doctor Who, which proves the rule by having the character get a new face and personality every few years.

protege

12-08-2005, 05:54 PM

He wrote a really good story about a character that has been notoriously lax about keeping his identity secret and how this laziness led to his secret getting out.

Playing with the conventions of the genre and pointing out how silly some of them are doesn't equal a hate of the whole thing.

I mean, jeez, have you read Ultimate Spider-Man? The book is dripping with love for superheros, the last arc especially.
Soorrryyyy...

Charles RB

12-08-2005, 06:11 PM

Sprawling, multi-decade epics can be great, sure, but look at ASTRO CITY or INVINCIBLE - brilliant books with only a couple dozen issues each under their belts.

Yes, but part of the appeal in Astro City is that it is a sprawling, multi-decade and international tapestry that's contained in a couple dozen issues, so that's not quite a good example. :p

Charles RB

12-08-2005, 06:20 PM

Well shazbot, the NEW BSG is easily the best show on television

Discussions about Battlestar Galactica make me feel wrong in some way, because I saw one of the early episodes (I think it was the first, it had the Cylons attacking every 33 minutes and everyone tired) recently and I just found it so boring. I could not care what happened to any of these characters whose name's I didn't know.

The Adventurer

12-08-2005, 06:25 PM

That was 33. The first episode of the first season. Takes place dirrectly after the 3 Hour Miniseries.

That was one of the best episodes too. If you didn't like it, the show probibly isn't for you. The entire series is an intense character driven drama with some awesome space battles.

Charles RB

12-08-2005, 06:41 PM

That was 33. The first episode of the first season. Takes place dirrectly after the 3 Hour Miniseries.

So I had to have watched something else to know who all the characters were in the first episode of the first season?! Buggery! They could've at least told me what the characters were called.

The entire series is an intense character driven drama with some awesome space battles.

33 certainly wasn't. I didn't see much in the way of awesome space battles (except for when the Cylon's show up and let loose with their fighters) and while an enemy that attacks every thirty-three minutes so you never get the chance to sleep should be intense, it wasn't because I didn't know who the characters were and I don't remember it ever even telling me (it's possible it did and I missed it, but it shouldn't be easy to miss _all_ the character's names in a 45-minute long show), so I got bored. I should not be bored watching a war against a constant, unending enemy that has destroyed Earth and who keeps coming. Something went wrong there.

The Adventurer

12-08-2005, 06:52 PM

They're not Earthlings, they're refugees from the 12 Colonies of Kobol. Earth is the fabled 13th colony they are in search of. The people of the 12 Colonies are very earthlike, partly because of parellel development and partly because the show is a kind of parable about human existence in the here and now.

You should pick up the mini series. It's on DVD, either through Netflex or buy a copy. I think Best Buy has it for like 10 bucks now that the season 1 box set came out and contained the mini as well as the first season.

It definitly introduces all the characters and the background.

ultramandingo

12-08-2005, 07:05 PM

any way..... ellis gets to screw up more marvel lame-os ....... yes! the reasons i keep reading comics! i mean moore on swamp thing(!) . morison on animal man(!) . ellis on....... uh , Nightmask . cant wait ....though i wish he was doing kickers inc too

Adam Crocker

12-08-2005, 08:16 PM

Well, quite a few soap operas have lasted twenty, thirty years or more- but they always ended up with characters coming and going as actors come and go, whereas Iron Man is always going to have Tony Stark in it being Iron Man. The one exception would be Doctor Who, which proves the rule by having the character get a new face and personality every few years.

Exactly. In comparison fictional comicbook universes remain relatively static, and again soaps don't crossover with each other the way Marvel and DC do, but there still needs to be change in some cases. So characters get reworked by writers, and in some cases retconned.

Of course mind you Iron Man and most other A and B list characters have avoided being reworked heavily for the most part because they have the popularity and brand recognition that neither creators nor the company usually feels the need to do so. That's quite a different case with C and D list characters who generally don't have a lot of staying power (even as team players) are more likely to get retooled. This is why the Ghost Rider character was brought back in the 90s after not being seen since the 70s with a new civilian identity and look. It's also why X-Men were retooled in the mid 70s to create a new team. And Nextwave is pretty much D list and thus the characters are wide open to retooling.

As a writer myself it just appals me that this kind of stuff goes on. It makes me wonder what jackhole is going to skrew with my creations 10 or 20 years down the line in the name of convinence.

Stonegold's right. If you are planning on writing for work-for-hire, be prepared to lose control of your characters because the company owns them and are free to do with them as they wish so there's not use in complaining about it.

(Heck, Ellis even said that he doesn't care that Claremont is using Pete Wisdom because Wisdom is not his character even though he created it.)

Ryan Day

12-08-2005, 08:42 PM

(Heck, Ellis even said that he doesn't care that Claremont is using Pete Wisdom because Wisdom is not his character even though he created it.)

Most writers, at least those who have been around for a while, are like this. I've read interviews with Keith Giffen and Jim Starlin where they've said "well, that might not be what I would do, but whatever." Creators realize that they do the work, they get paid, and they move on. They don't take it personally, and anyone who really expects their work to have lasting impact is kidding themselves, whether they write 10 issues or 100.

ultramandingo

12-09-2005, 08:44 AM

bad signal
WARREN ELLIS

I don't know where the week's gone.

Yesterday, I did a Marvel phone
conference with retailers and
journalists. You can find a partial
transcript at Comicon Pulse, where
poor Jen Contino seems to have had
problems with my accent. "Grim
fin-headed bumrape" becomes
"grim and thin-headed," for one.
I also told the assembled worthies
that Marvel were launching a porn
line using their old Star Line group
of children's properties, and that
Mark Millar's summer 2006 book
was called "Anal ALF."

"Any questions?" Marvel's John
Dokes asked brightly, remembering
with bitterness that I'd promised to
keep it clean. And there was deathly
silence on the line. "I do it for the
children," I said.

The conference was to talk up
NEXTWAVE a bit -- and I just saw
the lettered inked pages, and I'm
actually still smiling at the gags,
which is rare for me -- and to
announce my own summer 2006
project for Marvel. I wanted
something to f$%^ around with. I
wanted to keep my foot in that
half/two-thirds of the overall direct
market that doesn't order my other
work. And I wanted one of those
old-style writing challenges that I
hadn't really done before -- taking
an old f-up franchise and
monkeying around inside it.

Twenty years ago, Marvel tried to
launch an entire secondary line of
action books that straddled that
sometimes-amorphous space
between superhero fiction and
science fiction. Despite the presence
of writers like Archie Goodwin and
the young Peter David, it died within
two or three years. It was under-
funded, generic, and really stands
out as a failure of nerve and
ambition. And they called it The New
Universe.

In summer 2006, I'm going to be
launching an ongoing title at Marvel
called newuniversal. No capital N,
no capital U. We refer to it in-house
as NU -- and I might have called it
NU, if it didn't always suggest
nu-metal to me.

The central concept, these days,
also looks kind of generic. Wild
Cards did it, RISING STARS did it,
etc etc. Something called The White
Event occurs, and afterwards a
handful of people are found to have
been made superhuman. So far so
blah. But, in looking at this stuff on
a webpage one night, it occurred to
me that that's not what happened.
What actually happened was that
there was this huge astronomical
event where the skies went white
all over the world for a minute, and
the aftermath was that the laws
of physics had been changed.

There's a sf book by a writer called
Vernor Vinge where the laws of
physics are radically different
depending on which part of the
galaxy you're in. Conventional
physics' dirty little secret is that
the speed of light appears to
fluctuate.

There is, as I say, a whole library
of science fiction about
superhumanity. These are not
superhero novels. Some lean closer
than others, of course -- Zelazny
and Saberhagen's COILS comes to
mind, and SLAN was very clearly a
precedent to the X-Men. But
there's a lot more that speaks to,
if you like, the superhuman
condition. Melding that with the
notion that suddenly the laws of
physics can go and stay slightly
nuts... In one six-hour session, I
generated a bunch of notes about
how and why this could happen,
with some ideas from some old
abandoned projects of mine (from
the Loose Ideas folder) fitting
themselves into it...

Sure, it's not exactly cut from whole
cloth. Like I said, it's a writing
challenge. Blows the cobwebs out a
bit. Makes you focus on the craft a
bit. Sometimes it's worth sitting
down and thinking, what *does*
make a Marvel character work?
(Answer: tragedy.)

Anyway. That's all for next year.
Right now I'm into other stuff,
trying to get clear for Xmas. And
tomorrow I buy myself a few
blissful hours to think about new
stuff. Something that works in
32pp episodes, 128pp stories...

---
Sent via mobile device
probably in the pub

...................

zeppelined

12-09-2005, 01:39 PM

I like how the reporters had to ask, "Where do you find these old characters?" He is a comic book writer. One might assume he has a passing familiarity with the medium, or perhaps even deigns to read one every now and then.

Actually, considering what I've read of his, I suppose that's not a safe assumption at all. This guy has a permanent place on my "Drop Any Title He Writes" list.

Charles RB

12-09-2005, 01:44 PM

Actually, considering what I've read of his, I suppose that's not a safe assumption at all.

Enlighten me how it's not a safe assumption that Warren Ellis, a guy who writes comics and has advocated comics he likes and reviewed comics for Artbomb and grew up reading comics, reads comics and has familiarity with the medium. Because it sure sounds like it's a safe assumption.

Titan Slade

12-09-2005, 03:26 PM

Bwahahahaha.................................. :D .I love the part in the www.comicon.com/pulse interview where Ellis answered the question of why he was using Fin Fang Foom in Nextwave. Ellis said "Because he is ridiculous." "He's a giant dragon in purple underpants." And then the part on how he found the characters he wanted to use. Ellis said "He had the entire Marvel Universe Handbook copied and Fed-exed to him. "Every now and then I would be astonished at how some of this stuff got published." One guy - a villain who dressed as a ghost chicken or voodoo chicken - [I couldn't believe] so, I really just needed to page through this book." "It's like if the Bible had been assembled by the inmates of five lunatic asylums." "You can really just cherry pick this stuff."

Ellis excells at turning crappy superheroes into interesting ones. This Nextwave book is going to be great.

Expletive Deleted

12-09-2005, 04:23 PM

I like how the reporters had to ask, "Where do you find these old characters?" He is a comic book writer. One might assume he has a passing familiarity with the medium, or perhaps even deigns to read one every now and then.Having a passing familiarity with the medium isn't the same thing as having encyclopedic knowledge of every character ever. If a writer dredges up a particularly obscure nugget, I don't think asking where he found it is necessarily a bad question.

SUPERECWFAN1

12-09-2005, 04:45 PM

I'm amazed that people are tossing Ellis over a fire for doing the unthinkable. Revamping the New Universe. By god people...when was that Universe last seen monthly ? 1989 ?

It would be different if he was revamping a Universe that was seen each month. This Universe hasn't really existed in Marvel since the late 80's. And from what I've read he'd have to clear a lotta hurdles with what has happened there.

The only thing ya can blame Ellis for is his lack of thinking to keep Iron Man on a monthly shedule. Not this...

ultramandingo

12-09-2005, 06:06 PM

Actually, considering what I've read of his, I suppose that's not a safe assumption at all. This guy has a permanent place on my "Drop Any Title He Writes" list.

This guy has a permanent place on my " Blindly Read Any Title He Writes" list . its scary that the same publisher that came up with the "new universe" lameness would be brilliant enuff to hand it over to ellis.

DDM

12-09-2005, 06:43 PM

Typical Ellis, I don't like continuum so I am going to throw it away so i can do some thing "fresh". Notice what he said about Nextwave that it will be in its own little corner of the MU. Once again so Ellis does not have to deal with continuum. If he does not want to write a comic in the MU why is he?

Next Wave reminds me of his new X-Force. Really, Ellis seems to recycle the same ideas in different packages. Furthermore, when his heart is not in the project, it shows in his books. Ellis is either hot or cold with me. Which is why I'll ignore most of his new comic books.

When Joe Quesada starts to hype Next Wave, it will confirm to me I have cause to ignore Ellis' books.

DDM

12-09-2005, 06:44 PM

But the whole point of the Marvel Universe is to have a SHARED UNIVERSE

If you don't want to take part in a shared universe create a series that takes place in it's own universe.

The New Universe is the same way, why use the New Universe name and characters if you're going to create something that's NOT the NEW UNIVERSE.

Welcome to Joe Quesada's Marvel. I take you haven't been formally introduced? He's the blathering mad-eyed screamer hawking Marvel books.

The Adventurer

12-09-2005, 07:16 PM

I want Bob Harris back!

Poor guy, you botch one Movie Promotion and you lose all the marbles.

Marvel's Marbles.

Charles RB

12-09-2005, 07:41 PM

I want Bob Harris back!

Wasn't he the guy that totally sucked, ran the company really badly (i.e. it wasn't making very much money and wasn't widely read under him) and ticked off a lot of creators?

The Adventurer

12-09-2005, 07:49 PM

No, he was the one who brought Marvel back from the brink after they filed Chapter 11, and brought life back to Marvel heroes after the Early 90s glut and bust.

Ivan Isaacs

12-10-2005, 01:39 AM

No, he was the one who brought Marvel back from the brink after they filed Chapter 11, and brought life back to Marvel heroes after the Early 90s glut and bust.

Hu?
May it be that you are confusing him with Bill Jemas?
Bob Harras was the guy who ran Marvel into the ground who re-wrote most of the X-Men run by Seagle/Kelly and Davis and who had his editors have much influence on the books, making them worse.

IMO it were Jemas/Quesada who brought back life into the Marvel characters, who launched Marvel Knights, who published many different titles, who were trying to bring something different to Marvel...

The Adventurer

12-10-2005, 07:03 AM

...

You're probibly right then. Was Jemas the one let go because the board of dirrectors thought he botched the potencial marketing of the first X-Men movie?

EDIT: No, wait, Bill Jemas was the load mouth hack who wrote Marville and was Quesada's partner in crime in running marvel through it's grim and gritty "muture" era. Launching the Ultimate line and the like, that I think are all the wrong dirrection for marvel.

Bob Harris was the one who really kicked Marvel heroes up a notch with post Heroes Reborn books. He got Marvel heroes back to basics without turning them into hollywood look alikes.

Charles RB

12-10-2005, 09:07 AM

No, wait, Bill Jemas was the load mouth hack who wrote Marville and was Quesada's partner in crime in running marvel through it's grim and gritty "muture" era. Launching the Ultimate line and the like, that I think are all the wrong dirrection for marvel.

The difference is, under Jemas and Quesceda, Marvel did better financially, so from a corporate persective the Quemas team were better than Harris. And more people where paying attention to Marvel and saying "hey, this book is really good!" over stuff like New X-Men, the new X-Force, USM and a bunch of others. Under Harris... I don't remember hearing anything good about Marvel's finances or the state of its books under Harris.

He got Marvel heroes back to basics without turning them into hollywood look alikes.

He was behind the Spider-Man Reboot, which wanted to be back to basics but, instead, was crap and made fans cry at its crapness. Same with X-Men, and I read the post-Reborn Fantastic Four that Claremont wrote and, well, ick.

Adam Crocker

12-10-2005, 01:13 PM

Bob Harris was the one who really kicked Marvel heroes up a notch with post Heroes Reborn books. He got Marvel heroes back to basics without turning them into hollywood look alikes.

I never saw anything remotely like 'back to basics' under Bob Harris Marvel (which helped drive me away from Superhero comics) save for possibly Spider Clone. And it was awful. Instead I got Teenaged Iron Man, Onslaught, Heroes Reborn, and loads of meandering X-Men stories that never really went anywhere.

...on the other hand as much of an irritating grandstander as Jemas was, Morrison's X-Men and Milligan's X-Force/X-Statix were some of the best superhero comics that I had read in years.

I like how the reporters had to ask, "Where do you find these old characters?" He is a comic book writer. One might assume he has a passing familiarity with the medium, or perhaps even deigns to read one every now and then.

I find it strange that in order to have proper familarity with the medium writers are expected to have a kind of encyclopedic knowledge of obscure characters and details rather than with the mechanics of writing for comics.