Beware the Islamic threat to Britain known as... Fruit and Vegatables!

[Charles RB]

The British National Party, those whacky fun people who never realised the Daleks were the bad guys, have decided to have a little cry in the corner over the fact a West Midlands school is selling Halal food (http://www.bnp.org.uk/news_detail.php?newsId=659):

Outraged parents in the West Midlands have called it the “last straw”, an insult to Christians and evidence that our country has “sold out” to an alien religion.

Several hundred pupils of the George Salter High School in West Bromwich were recently given a letter to take home to parents advising pupils and parents alike that Halal products would be on offer in the school canteen. The letter dated 9th November from Ms. Vincent, the Assistant Head was delivered as a fait accompli – the decision had clearly already been made by school staff and there was even a certificate of Halal authenticity supplied by a Sparkhill based food company to prove it, signed by “Brother in Islam”.

“I trust that this will meet with your approval and that you will continue to support us in meeting the dietary needs of our school community.”

The introduction of Halal foods in schools in not new - many Muslim dominated schools already offer Halal products to their pupils, but most parents have been long in denial believing that it could not happen in their schools, citing that the number of Muslim pupils is too small for such a change to be implemented. Pupils from Islamic backgrounds make up a small fraction of the George Salter school roll, about 10%, so we see yet again a minority determining the agenda for the majority, public officials making concession after concession to a small but vociferous and organised minority group. Each concession, in isolation seems insignificant, harmless, even reasonable but when viewed as a whole each concession can be seen as building bricks of an edifice which when complete will be difficult to dismantle.

It is unreasonable for Muslims to demand Halal products in any publicly funded British school, just as it would be unreasonable for Christians to demand non-Halal products in any State funded school in Saudi Arabia or Iran.

One parent spoke to his local BNP representative to express his anger but conceded that parents were powerless to reverse the school’s decision: “I am writing to the local education department, my MP, and the newspapers to show my disgust. I doubt it will do any good.”

“I have been called a racist by the local authority” said another parent, “just because I said that this was wrong”.

The West Brom parents are not alone, for many of those who write in daily, it is the speed with which the process of Islamification is taking place that is most worrying, a speed out of proportion to the actual numbers of Muslims who live in a particular community.

But what is Halal food, you ask? Well, Halal is Lawful or Permitted, so basically it's the type of food that good Muslims are allowed to eat without annoying Allah. And according to this site (http://halal.50megs.com/halal.html), Halal foods are:

Milk (from cows, sheeps, camels or goats).
Honey.
Fish.
Plants which are not intoxicant.
Fresh or naturally frozen vegetables.
Fresh or dried fruits.
Legumes like peanuts, cashew nuts, hazel nuts, walnuts, etc.
Grains such as wheat, rice, rye, barley, oat, etc.

In other words, the BNP is angry and thinks British & Christian values are under attack... because a school is selling stuff like fresh fuit & vegetables, milk and grain-based products.

This at a time when there's a lot of noise about how school dinners should be healthier, and how kids need healthy food. Fresh fruit & veg, milk and grain? That sounds healthy to me. But no, according to Davros Griffin, this is evil terrorist talk and kids should be eating huge bags of good, British crisps & sweeties.

Also:

“I have been called a racist by the local authority” said another parent, “just because I said that this was wrong”.

You think it's wrong to sell healthy food because a Muslim name was attached, so yes you are racist. Now shut up.

[StoneGold]

There's a little more to halal than that, but it's basically the same as freaking out because the ballpark is selling Hebrew National hot dogs. Yeah, she's a racist. Or at least a bigot.

[warspite1805]

No one at the school is forcing their brats to eat halal food, all it sounds like to me is the school is offering more choice. Choice is good.

[Michael P]

So, if I have this correct:

Halal:Muslim::kosher:Jew. And the schools in Britain with Muslim students are offering Halal dietary options.

What the hell? It's not like they're forcing the Christian kids to eat this stuff. (Although, if that list Charles posted is accurate, choosing to do so wouldn't hurt the little butterballs any.) Seriously, ya dumbasses, look up "pluralism" in a damn dictionary sometime.

[Adam Crocker]

In other words, the BNP is angry and thinks British & Christian values are under attack... because a school is selling stuff like fresh fuit & vegetables, milk and grain-based products.

And the hilarious part is that these tend to be the kinds of foods that Seventh Day Adventist Christians adhere to due to dietary statements in Levictus, as well as a firm belief in living healthily, that help them enjoy longer-than-average lifespans.

Man...if only more school lunches were Halal. We might actually make progress in addressing obesity in modern society.

[StoneGold]

The real fun part, apparently according to this woman's mind, not Christian=anti-Christian.

[Charles RB]

Seriously, ya dumbasses, look up "pluralism" in a damn dictionary sometime.

I'd hate to see how they react when they want to get a Kitkat from the vending machine and, to their horror, discover there's many non-Kitkat snacks to buy as well. Do their minds shut down?

[Michael P]

I'd hate to see how they react when they want to get a Kitkat from the vending machine and, to their horror, discover there's many non-Kitkat snacks to buy as well. Do their minds shut down?
They'd never get a KitKat. That's darkie food.

[sehthan]

Een if the school only offered Halal food, which I doubt, there's no Christian principle that I'm aware of that would prevent the consumption of foods that met Halal, or Kosher, standards. This is ignorant xenophobia of the most ridiculous kind.

[SOGG]

There's a little more to halal than that, but it's basically the same as freaking out because the ballpark is selling Hebrew National hot dogs. Yeah, she's a racist. Or at least a bigot.

You mean the bleeding the animal bit? Or the prepared with alcohol?

Because really, everything should be prepared with alcohol.....

[Spike-X]

I have been called a racist by the local authority, just because I said that this was wrong.

Fancy that.

[Royal]

Wow. I never knew eatting clean would be considered "anti-christian".

Oh well. Glad I'm Shinto.

[Spike-X]

The dumbasses probably just saw the word 'Halal' and figured their kids would be forced to eat some crazy Muslim food, like boiled camel's testicles or something.

I mean, it's not like these people are the type to go out of the way to inform themselves of the actual facts before they go shooting off their mouths.

[heretic]

So, if I have this correct:

Halal:Muslim::kosher:Jew. And the schools in Britain with Muslim students are offering Halal dietary options.

What the hell? It's not like they're forcing the Christian kids to eat this stuff. (Although, if that list Charles posted is accurate, choosing to do so wouldn't hurt the little butterballs any.) Seriously, ya dumbasses, look up "pluralism" in a damn dictionary sometime.
But-but... if they are exposed to it, they may eat it _themselves_!

We cannot have good christian Englishmen eating Heathen Food! AAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!

:rolleyes:

Seriously, last I heard Halal or Kosher food was not forbidden to christians. Therefore offering it simply expands the options.

BTW, do they fuss about Kosher menus being offered too?

HTG

[Paragon Kobold]

They offer Halal meals as one of the options at the cafeteria at my university.

Oddly it would seem that, under the rules of halal, whale meat qualifies as
a sort of fish.

[Bakema NL]

Obviously you people live somewhere else. I can perfectly understand these parents. While the choice of eating this food is certainly harmless it's the issue of yet another religion mixing itself into everyday life. And a religion that gives for a lot of problems, while religion in itself is not wrong, a lot of people "using" that religion can be and oftentimes are. But you'll see where this all is heading too, you can already see it when you look at the world and it's only a matter of time you will have to deal with it too......maybe that is, because a lot of these people want to see you wiped off the earth too and lots of convenient weapons for that are searched for. And you people are already dealing with it in a way because you stand right behind Israel oppressing Palestines, you fight in Afghanistan, in Irak............you don't bring freedom there, you are seen as the biggest opponents of islam by the majority of muslims. We used to be friendly with America over here, but thanks to the inclusion and ever spreading influence of islam and your own worldwide, viewed as stupid by a lot of people, actions that has shifted to a "fuck them, they are the enemy of the world". It's only our governments keeping things a bit friendly with America, but they are highly criticized for it and it will not last. But of course I will be regarded as a bigot, a xenophobe..............we'll wait and see. :)

[Dan Apodaca]

Obviously you people live somewhere else. I can perfectly understand these parents. While the choice of eating this food is certainly harmless it's the issue of yet another religion mixing itself into everyday life. And a religion that gives for a lot of problems, while religion in itself is not wrong, a lot of people "using" that religion can be and oftentimes are. But you'll see where this all is heading too, you can already see it when you look at the world and it's only a matter of time you will have to deal with it too......maybe that is, because a lot of these people want to see you wiped off the earth too and lots of convenient weapons for that are searched for. And you people are already dealing with it in a way because you stand right behind Israel oppressing Palestines, you fight in Afghanistan, in Irak............you don't bring freedom there, you are seen as the biggest opponents of islam by the majority of muslims. We used to be friendly with America over here, but thanks to the inclusion and ever spreading influence of islam and your own worldwide, viewed as stupid by a lot of people, actions that has shifted to a "fuck them, they are the enemy of the world". It's only our governments keeping things a bit friendly with America, but they are highly criticized for it and it will not last. But of course I will be regarded as a bigot, a xenophobe..............we'll wait and see. :)

First off, use that enter key. Please. It's really frustrating trying to read something in this form.

If the parents were complaining about the intrusion of religion into their schools, they wouldn't be called bigots. Idiots, sure, but not bigots. But they're talking about the inclusion of provisions for muslim students in their christian way of life. They're afraid of the competition.

And even if they were arguing against the inclusion of religion in the schools, it wouldn't make any sense, since this is just a motion to make schooltime meals easier for muslim students.

[Iangould]

it's the issue of yet another religion mixing itself into everyday life.

Yeah, next thing you know those damn Jews will want to use public transport and eat in restaurants.

[Bakema NL]

Yeah, next thing you know those damn Jews will want to use public transport and eat in restaurants.

Hahaha, I knew people wouldn't get it....don't want to get it. Wtf do I care if a Jew or whomever uses public transport and eat in restaurants to take your example stemming from ww2. It's the negativity the religion brings, the people that mis-use it bring, that's not welcome. Christianity was much the same too, but they are like nothing anymore over here as opposed to earlier days. I'm not really fond of any religion, the islam is just the one that's most "out there" at the moment, like christianity is still a big deal in the US, only worse even.
Islam is spreading like christianity did centuries ago, somewhat the same is happening all over again, masses of people migrating and bringing religion with them, influencing and ultimately bending society and not in a good way, and we all know what happened because of it and yet we let it happen again, even welcome it. Like I said......wait and see. :)

[Michael P]

Hahaha, I knew people wouldn't get it....don't want to get it.
What exactly is there to get, other than "I have an irrational fear of Muslims and Muslim culture?"

[Winslow]

. . . While the choice of eating this food is certainly harmless it's the issue of yet another religion mixing itself into everyday life.

I think I disagree with you on this one Bakema.

If the food is harmless (the effect), why is the intent so wrong? (the cause)

If it were an administrative and budget problem, I can see rejecting the request, (bring your own food kids - we're locked into a menu for the year with this vendor), but to simply reject it because it has a religous influence doesn't seem reasonable to me.

[Adam Crocker]

I can perfectly understand these parents. While the choice of eating this food is certainly harmless it's the issue of yet another religion mixing itself into everyday life.

Re-read the article from the BNP website that Charles posted. The reasoning of the parents' objections have nothing to do with objecting to the intrusion of religion into schools. They are objecting because supposedly offering Halal foods goes against Christian values, so they are essentially angry that this doesn't reflect their religious values enough.

Moreover I find it telling that the only group seemingly bothering to publicize their concerns is the BNP.

(And while I hate to be a pedant, I have to agree with Dan. It was really hard to read your post.)

[Bakema NL]

What exactly is there to get, other than "I have an irrational fear of Muslims and Muslim culture?"

Just what I was expecting, it's always the "fear" thing next..........I don't fear anything, that's something else then don't like it and problems will come of it.

[Tadhg Adams]

Just what I was expecting, it's always the "fear" thing next..........I don't fear anything, that's something else then don't like it and problems will come of it.


Then what's the RATIONAL argument against this? Because what you've said so far, is far from it.

[Bakema NL]

Re-read the article from the BNP website that Charles posted. The reasoning of the parents' objections have nothing to do with objecting to the intrusion of religion into schools. They are objecting because supposedly offering Halal foods goes against Christian values, so they are essentially angry that this doesn't reflect their religious values enough.

Moreover I find it telling that the only group seemingly bothering to publicize their concerns is the BNP.

(And while I hate to be a pedant, I have to agree with Dan. It was really hard to read your post.)

That group of people doesn't interest me, their christian values being the problem for including the food on the list means just as little as anything else with whatever religion...it's nothing to me. Like I said, I don't really like religion as a whole, be it islam or christianity or whatever else. But islam is getting a problem while the rest, particularly christianity is slowly but surely fading quite a bit, we don't need another religion growing big, we're better off without. Like I said several times, we're on a wait and see basis.....we'll find out how things roll. :)
And hard to read my post...........your problem, not mine, make an effort.

[Typo Lad]

Halal can be meat too.

Cool fact: Many Ny Area Muslims will accept Kosher certifications when they can't find Halal food. Kosher Pizza stores tend to have a decent Muslim clientel.

[Typo Lad]

And hard to read my post...........your problem, not mine, make an effort.

Well, since he's responded to you, he's obviously made the effort.

Why can't you do him the same courtesty and hit the enter key? The extra second will hardly kill you.

[Bakema NL]

Then what's the RATIONAL argument against this? Because what you've said so far, is far from it.

For the answer to that just take a look around the world my friend and where the trouble areas are. :)

[Bakema NL]

Well, since he's responded to you, he's obviously made the effort.

Why can't you do him the same courtesty and hit the enter key? The extra second will hardly kill you.

I already made the post? ;)

[Tadhg Adams]

And hard to read my post...........your problem, not mine, make an effort.

Or maybe you should make more of an effort. Since you're taking the time to post, you obviously want to communicate, so why not actually try and communicate effectively?

[Bakema NL]

Or maybe you should make more of an effort. Since you're taking the time to post, you obviously want to communicate, so why not actually try and communicate effectively?

Looking at the responses it's effective enough. :)

[Tadhg Adams]

For the answer to that just take a look at around the world my friend and where the trouble areas are. :)

I look around the world as see lots of intolerance, this is just another example. There's nothing that justifies what's described in the article.

[Typo Lad]

I already made the post? ;)

When people are kind enough to point out one of my more glaring typos, I use the handy-dandy edit function.

[Bakema NL]

When people are kind enough to point out one of my more glaring typos, I use the handy-dandy edit function.

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't....now I don't. :)
And what's that kindness you are talking about...I didn't see it, lol. :p

[The Mirrorball Man]

And one more piece of advice: if you want to sound like a nice guy, smileys are not enough. Here's an example of what NOT to do:

"Baby seals. We should kill them all. :) We should kill them all with rusty icepicks. ;)"

[Patient Boy]

And hard to read my post...........your problem, not mine, make an effort.

Memang betul apa yang kamu kata ini. Jika kamu tidak faham apa ini yang saya cakap, ia adalah salah kamu kerana kamu tidak faham bahasa saya, bukan kerana saya menulis dalam bahasa yang kamu tidak faham.

[Ed Cunard]

But... But...

http://www.goodnewsfl.org/genesis/Issues/broward/1003/images/veggie%20tales.jpg

[Charles RB]

Obviously you people live somewhere else.

Yes. In Britain. Where we're supposed to want kids to have healthy school dinners.

I can perfectly understand these parents. While the choice of eating this food is certainly harmless it's the issue of yet another religion mixing itself into everyday life.

No it's not, it's an example of food on offer. Their kids don't even have to eat it! They can let them gorge on crisps on lunchtime if they really want.

And a religion that gives for a lot of problems, while religion in itself is not wrong, a lot of people "using" that religion can be and oftentimes are. But you'll see where this all is heading too, you can already see it when you look at the world and it's only a matter of time you will have to deal with it too......

IT'S FOOD! You can't tell me there's a big Islamic threat from selling fresh veg!

maybe that is, because a lot of these people want to see you wiped off the earth too

No, nasty little fuckheads want to see us wiped off the Earth, and they're content to wipe out Muslims while they do so. The Muslims in this case want to make money by selling us food.

But of course I will be regarded as a bigot, a xenophobe..............we'll wait and see. :)

Well, you are trying to tell me school dinners are a sign of a terrorist threat.

It's the negativity the religion brings, the people that mis-use it bring, that's not welcome.

It's not welcome because the complaining parents are bigots and are outraged at a foreign sounding name. This is why they're whining to the British National Party, who are all about being bigots.

Islam is spreading like christianity did centuries ago, somewhat the same is happening all over again, masses of people migrating and bringing religion with them, influencing and ultimately bending society and not in a good way

Yeah, trying to be capitalist and make money by selling food. The horror.

For the answer to that just take a look around the world my friend and where the trouble areas are.

Well, there's quite a few trouble areas local to the UK, and none of them have anything to do with Halal food.

But... But...

http://www.goodnewsfl.org/genesis/Issues/broward/1003/images/veggie%20tales.jpg

The terrorist scum. :mad:

[Bakema NL]

That's because generally you're not talking about political parties that are solely and openly made up of racists & bigots, you're talking about ethnic and/or religious groups that compose of tens of millions of people. Note the massive honking difference.

But this party got what....900 000 votes, did I read that correct...I could be mistaken, if so, point it out. But if not, that's a whole lot of people there, not tens of millions, but still a whole lot.

[Charles RB]

But this party got what....900 000 votes, did I read that correct...

So there are 900,000 racist, ignorant twats in Britain (if the figure's correct). Big deal. The BNP still has no political power or influence, and they still suck like a room full of Youngblood comics.

[Mike Pothier]

Milk (from cows, sheeps, camels or goats).
Honey.
Fish.
Plants which are not intoxicant.
Fresh or naturally frozen vegetables.
Fresh or dried fruits.
Legumes like peanuts, cashew nuts, hazel nuts, walnuts, etc.
Grains such as wheat, rice, rye, barley, oat, etc.

I wish MY schools had offered that as an alternative. I would have totally gone for it.

[Spike-X]

Of course this was about the food, but there's much more to it, much more problems in society, this is just some tiny rather insignificant element out of it, but there's no denying the real problems out there.

The "real problems out there" in this case are caused by bigoted idiots who don't want any culture than their own acknowledged in any way because...well, because they're bigoted idiots.

That's what I was getting at, trying to get on the table, because discussing this food thing only would be just as ridiculous as the whole deal itself is wouldn't you say? But of course you people see it different. Then happy talking about food and let's wait what the future will bring us, should be interesting. :)

What are you trying to say? That if we let them bring their food into our schools, next thing we know they'll be trying to bring their bombs into our schools?

[king mob]

But this party got what....900 000 votes


Out of a country of 50 million, most of those don't vote.

[Adam Crocker]

I wish MY schools had offered that as an alternative. I would have totally gone for it.

I didn't say it earlier but, that list is like a dietician's wet dream.

[king mob]

Every country has a party like this, luckily they all fall through eventually.


The BNP have been growing in support for over a decade.

[Bakema NL]

The BNP have been growing in support for over a decade.

We had a same sort of party like that in the 80's, they grew, they failed miserably. It's a good thing to keep an eye out for them of course, but they aren't getting anywhere.

Spike-X....you know that's not it, you know what I'm talking about only don't see it that way, no problem.

[king mob]

We had a same sort of party like that in the 80's, they grew, they failed miserably. It's a good thing to keep an eye out for them of course, but they aren't getting anywhere.



Thats nice. However the BNP are making ground, including gaining seats in local councils and coming dangerously close to Parliamentary seats. They are anything but failing in parts of the country.

[Spike-X]

If that's not it, then what is it? You seem to be saying that if these schools allow Halal food to be sold in their cafeterias, it will lead to all sorts of other problems down the track. What kind of problems, exactly?

[Bakema NL]

Thats nice. However the BNP are making ground, including gaining seats in local councils and coming dangerously close to Parliamentary seats. They are anything but failing in parts of the country.

So maybe that is saying something about my remark "there's more to it than only food". And I don't believe for a second it's only stupid bigoted people who voted on that party, that's too easy. A lot of these people seem unhappy about something, making them a minority in their numbers now, but they should be addressed because like you said, their numbers are on the rise.

[warspite1805]

Just look at the areas where they are gaining support. Mostly it seems poorer areas with high percentages of ethnic minorities. All it needs is a few tossers to stir up peoples fears and the BNP starts to gain ground. Plus loads of people are just sheeple willing to be led or folow a crowd.

Additionally I suspect that the AQ attacks such as the London and Twin towers attacks have pushed people towards the BNP and the Ilk.

As soon as ecconomic conditions in those areas start to improve and the political climate calms down a bit the BNP's votes will drop.

[Bakema NL]

If that's not it, then what is it? You seem to be saying that if these schools allow Halal food to be sold in their cafeterias, it will lead to all sorts of other problems down the track. What kind of problems, exactly?

No, the food will not lead into it, you misunderstand that, that's ridiculous, the problems are already there and getting worse. Just look around the world what problems are out there, like I said already, you people are not dumb, you can figure it out.

[Royal]

Dude! Bakema! You don't know what you're missing in a halal/kosher/hindi cafeteria. Back in high school, we had regular beef hamburgers & turkey burgers. Turkey burgers were so damn good, I stopped eatting the beef burgers. And goat's milk...mmmmmmm. I'd always turn down the fish. Don't know why. Probably my bad experiances with fish dishes in elementary school.

[heretic]

If that's not it, then what is it? You seem to be saying that if these schools allow Halal food to be sold in their cafeterias, it will lead to all sorts of other problems down the track. What kind of problems, exactly?
Presumably this opens the door to pernicious Islamic Influence. Letting 'them' have thier way in little matters will supposedly lead to them getting thier way in ever more important matters (marriage, religion, public policy, etc.).

Needless to say the very possibility of this is, in the eyes of some, Bad(tm).

(the possibility that the Muslims with any real chance of gaining influence would be a lot more like Erdogan than Bin Ladin escapes a lot of people)

HTG

[Bakema NL]

Just look at the areas where they are gaining support. Mostly it seems poorer areas with high percentages of ethnic minorities. All it needs is a few tossers to stir up peoples fears and the BNP starts to gain ground. Plus loads of people are just sheeple willing to be led or folow a crowd.

Additionally I suspect that the AQ attacks such as the London and Twin towers attacks have pushed people towards the BNP and the Ilk.

As soon as ecconomic conditions in those areas start to improve and the political climate calms down a bit the BNP's votes will drop.

Until the next tension arises.
Basically what you're saying is people are sheep. You're right, a lot of them are, even encouraged to act like sheep. So by keeping them happy economically you can keep tensions between different groups with different cultural backgrounds and religions down............but the differences/problems are still out there, it's a very fragile thing doing/maintaining this.

[warspite1805]

I wouldn't say atht all people are like sheep but many are, esspecially when in groups.

[Charles RB]

And I don't believe for a second it's only stupid bigoted people who voted on that party, that's too easy.

True. There's also easily frightened and easily led idiots who've been doing it too.

A lot of these people seem unhappy about something

Yes. They're unhappy that there are dark-skinned people with a different culture to them that live in Britain.

the problems are already there and getting worse

Yes, the problem of bigoted arseholes is getting worse. Fuck them.

[Bakema NL]

Dude! Bakema! You don't know what you're missing in a halal/kosher/hindi cafeteria. Back in high school, we had regular beef hamburgers & turkey burgers. Turkey burgers were so damn good, I stopped eatting the beef burgers. And goat's milk...mmmmmmm. I'd always turn down the fish. Don't know why. Probably my bad experiances with fish dishes in elementary school.

OMG, you people are so damn wrong about me. I'm not missing anything, I eat halal/hindi, there's friggin' great food out there. About half of my colleagues are muslim, you wouldn't believe the stuff I eat, homemade by their wives, delicious things we never heard of. I had mothers of colleagues, girls working with us in the weekends, bringing me food at work because I enjoyed it so much. So I'm around these people everyday, work with them everyday, deal with them as customers everyday, see them in public transport everyday, I hire them for jobs, fire them for not doing a job or stealing stuff etc etc etc, I'm put to work in certain neighbourhoods because I know how to work with "other" people, with them as colleagues, respectfully both ways, and with the criminal elements in said neighbourhoods...........so out of experience I know very well what I'm talking about. But no, most of you assumed I was just a bigoted guy hating muslims/foreigners/black people.........which is not the case, not that simple. But I have my criticism, things are not going well and unlike most people I'm not afraid to say what I want to say, also in public where most Dutch shy away from things, afraid. Funny thing is, a whole lot of said colleagues agree that things are bad and that an awful lot of their countrymen are acting like idiots ruining things for the people who do want to make a positive contribution to society. And they are afraid to give voice to that opinion because then they are seen as traitors, I've seen it happening so many times.

[Bakema NL]

True. There's also easily frightened and easily led idiots who've been doing it too.



Yes. They're unhappy that there are dark-skinned people with a different culture to them that live in Britain.



Yes, the problem of bigoted arseholes is getting worse. Fuck them.

Yeah, it's getting worse indeed. And just take a look at bigotry among "foreigners" amongst themselves even............holy crap, native people can learn a thing or two about bigotry there. One is from the city and therefore better than those coming from the mountains.......it's incredible the stuff you hear a lot of times.

[Charles RB]

But no, most of you assumed I was just a bigoted guy hating muslims/foreigners/black people...

Based on the fact you have repeatedly posted bigoted stuff, yes.

unlike most people I'm not afraid to say what I want to say

The "I'm not a bigot, I'm just saying it like it is!" line doesn't help your case much.

[Bakema NL]

Based on the fact you have repeatedly posted bigoted stuff, yes.



The "I'm not a bigot, I'm just saying it like it is!" line doesn't help your case much.

Of course not, you already made up your mind.....have a happy life then. :)

[Royal]

But legumes are good. Goat's milk is good.

[Charles RB]

Goat's milk is good.

...do you have taste buds?

[Typo Lad]

...do you have taste buds?

The trick is to milk the nanny goat, not the billy.

[Iangould]

Adakah maknahnya kamu ni seorang jubur?

Hontoni so desu ka?

[Adam Crocker]

No, the food will not lead into it, you misunderstand that, that's ridiculous, the problems are already there and getting worse. Just look around the world what problems are out there, like I said already, you people are not dumb, you can figure it out.

Except that the problems you outlined in the Middle East or the Netherlands are not the same problems in Britain, and this food issue is not connected to any them. Your continued attempts to link the two are tenuous.


To be fair though, Islam is a hot button issue there, so maybe Bakenma's speaking from a point of view of someone too close to the issue.

Well I figured that, but when he does something as silly as try to claim that bigots getting antsy over serving Halal food in a school cafeteria is some how related to the situation in the Middle East I can't help but roll my eyes.

[Celisasu]

But... But...

http://www.goodnewsfl.org/genesis/Issues/broward/1003/images/veggie%20tales.jpgIs that supposed to encourage us to eat fruits and vegetables or discourage us? I'd be afraid if I saw my vegetables looking at me and talking to me.

[warspite1805]

Just remember this

[Erkoban]

I understand where the parents are coming from and I understand where Bakema is coming from.

You live your life to the best of your abilities and you are part of a larger whole, you are part of a history and a culture and a nationality and a religion, or a non-religion. For a while now people seem to downplay the majority, expect them to surrender certain ideals and practices almost as a sign of shame.

This plays into that thought-pattern.

You work, you pay taxes, you are proud to be part of your country and your proud of your country's culture and even its history. You have kids and you hope they grow up with that same pride and those same values. You send them to school, and there you expect them to be taught in a similar fashion as you are. The school is an extension of the country you're living in. It's something very basic.

Now the school changes something, something small, to suit the needs of another culture, another religion, implying that certain ways are old, redundant, or even harmful. Something else is promoted as being better.

Now it's very possible that it actually is better and healthier, but it's one element from a larger culture with subsequent ideals and practices that someone might not agree with. The question arises, first this, what next? People always want to hold on to a certain state of being, they don't want others to change their ways, they want to change their ways themselves, if they're going to change at all.

If the goverment or leaders of another kind bring in new elements, altering the old, many find themselves feeling attacked and betrayed on a very fundamental level. Their leaders are selling out, they are imposing ideals people only half-heartedly agree with on the situation.

Every parent wants his child to eat healthy, but there's a difference between bringing in halal food and bringing in healthy food. To the term halal there are many other terms clinging. After all the word was born from a religion and a culture that one might not agree with at all, whereas healthy is a term so global and encompassing that hardly anyone would be offended by it.

Then there is the issue of people accusing others of intolerance.

If anything acussing others of being intolerant because they oppose halal food being served in school, only shows a certain bias and intolerance. After all, why are the concerns of those people not valid? Why are their beliefs more evil and less noble than those of others?

They might feel offended in ways you can't even imagine, as they find that the people accusing them are ignoring elements of that other culture on purpose. The idea is born that one is always bad while the other always good. People proud of their history and culture are branded bigot and intolerant, while Jews and Muslims who are equally proud of their cultures and histories are seen as perfectly inoffensive.

You can then say, well don't be a sissy, they're not taking over your way of life, just submit one tiny little piece, so insignificant to a new way of life. But if it's that insgnificant, then why should one give it up while others get the chance to change it to suit their cultural and religious needs? That tiny little thing, if it's that insignificant, then why don't they abandon it and submit to the situation as is? After all that thing has existed longer and is the status quo, if it's such a non-issue, then why change it at all? And why change it so obviously to suit the religious needs of a relatively new minority?

Because it's important to them? As is maintaining the status quo, there are plenty of people who think that the old way of life is important, important enough to not let it be changed based by new influences.

Why are their concerns less valid then others?

Because they are BNP and they are inherently evil and bad and racist? You'll find that most people sympathising with the BNP and likewise organisations do so because they simply don't want to see elements of their life changed because of "outside" influences. They hold dear to their traditions and culture and wish to maintain the status quo. Why should my culture and country change to suit the needs of a religious minority? If it happens they see a very clear message, because "they" are elevated and given preference, while "we" are villified and supressed, "our" concerns are not seen as legitimate while "theirs" are.

And of course one of those points that end up in conflict is that when you accuse one of intolerance but not another, and trivialize the other culture in order to promote it more heavily, you'll end up coming across as remarkably blind to intolerance.

You are intolerant because you oppose halal food in school, you hate muslims, you are a bigot. Halal is just a set pf dietary laws and your children will benefit from it just as much. You're just too blind and intolerant to accept it. You racist!

but the other party will only see it as an attack... through the others mind there are a couple of thoughts dominant, especially in this discussion.

Why don't you speak out against the way they treat women? Haven't you seen Submission? Why don't you speak out against the way they treat homosexuality? Why don't you speak out against simple facts and figures? Why don't you speak out against the intolerance of their culture and their ways and their attitudes?

Of course it ends up, if this is spoken out, in a very predictable follow up.

"You are just like Hitler." (Which is basically the excuse of the weakest, they can't counter with rational arguments and thus they attack with the lowest and most retarded of attacks)

and the ever loved Christians do it too! (Which is just trying to change the topic and avoiding the real confrontation. Christianity isn't the topic of discussion, so why bring it up, we never asked you for another question, we asked you why you don't speak out against a certain trend in another culture, a culture you don't seem to have any trouble with. You have no arguments with this reply, and as a result you admit your defeat, while trying to sound clever.)

After that it becomes a bitch-fest about semantics.

[Dan Apodaca]

But the fundamental problem with any and all explanations as to why the objectors are not bigoted is this simple fact:

The school's not changing the food. They're offering more variety. None of these kids have to eat Halal food, and they're not even being encouraged to do it.

It's just there for the kids who do want it.



The parents' reaction is akin to protesting McDonald's because they have salads now. Hey dumbshit, you can still get a cheeseburger if you want. No one's stopping you.

[king mob]

Because they are BNP and they are inherently evil and bad and racist? You'll find that most people sympathising with the BNP and likewise organisations do so because they simply don't want to see elements of their life changed because of "outside" influences. They hold dear to their traditions and culture and wish to maintain the status quo. Why should my culture and country change to suit the needs of a religious minority? If it happens they see a very clear message, because "they" are elevated and given preference, while "we" are villified and supressed, "our" concerns are not seen as legitimate while "theirs" are.

Thats just the same argument the National Front made in the 70's, and every facist party in Britain going back to Mosley's lot and beyond.
I know there's a lot of BNP supporters who are not 'evil', just incredibly ignorant and scared of change.It's what the BNP rely on for support but even thouse some supporters are not evil racists, the BNP are and their connections to Combat 18 speak volumes as to what they really are, which is a racist party wanting to start a race war.

Britain has always been a country made up of immigrants, it has no one culture but it made up of dozens of different cultures and many of those coming here have adapted to 'our' culture. In a lot of cases they've changed 'our' culture for the better.

And of course one of those points that end up in conflict is that when you accuse one of intolerance but not another, and trivialize the other culture in order to promote it more heavily, you'll end up coming across as remarkably blind to intolerance.

In this case the council is not trivialising another culture, it's just adding another option to cater for a section of society.This is only an issue because the BNP have made it an issue, in the rest of the UK it's fairly common to see hala/kosher options in schools with a large number of muslim/jewish pupils.

This is just another example of the BNP creating hate toward muslims for the sake of it, that's their agenda.


Why don't you speak out against the way they treat women? Haven't you seen Submission? Why don't you speak out against the way they treat homosexuality? Why don't you speak out against simple facts and figures? Why don't you speak out against the intolerance of their culture and their ways and their attitudes?

If by "they" you mean muslims then i'm sure you've seen threads where certain muslim nations (i'm assuming you are aware that there's different interpretations of Islam, just like there is with Christianity) and aspects of Islam are criticised.
But "their" culture is also partly ours as well, we're in this together and we won't get beyond the BNP position of "hate all muslims" if we don't even bother to grasp or understand Islam. Sweeping generalisations won't help.

[king mob]

Just look at the areas where they are gaining support. Mostly it seems poorer areas with high percentages of ethnic minorities. All it needs is a few tossers to stir up peoples fears and the BNP starts to gain ground. Plus loads of people are just sheeple willing to be led or folow a crowd.

Additionally I suspect that the AQ attacks such as the London and Twin towers attacks have pushed people towards the BNP and the Ilk.

As soon as ecconomic conditions in those areas start to improve and the political climate calms down a bit the BNP's votes will drop.


I'd love to think that but it wont happen. The BNP have themselves a niche now, plus they've creeped into mainstream politics with Labour and the Tories adapting their policies for general consumption.

The BNP are still a fringe party, but they've become a pretty strong fringe party and in some places, too fucking near to gaining power.

[Charles RB]

I understand where the parents are coming from

They're coming from up their own arses.

There is no bigger picture here besides them being bigoted idiots. They have no point. They are protesting food because it had a scary foreign name. These are not smart people with a valid thing to say.

Now the school changes something, something small, to suit the needs of another culture, another religion

So the kids of that culture and religion, who numbers in the dozens, can eat properly. And every kid can have the option to eat fresh fruit and veg too, and are perfectly able to stuff themselves on crisps if they want to.

Also- that other culture and religion? It's been around in Britian on a large scale from around about the 1950s, 1960s. Two generations have grown up with it existing. If they can't handle it existing, they're in the wrong damn country.

Something else is promoted as being better.

Fresh fruit, fresh veg, grain and kosher meat is better than what makes up the majority of school dinners these days, since most school dinners are "here is a choice of crisps". Nobody who isn't thick is going to have a problem with fruit & veg being promoted as better for you to eat than crisps.

Every parent wants his child to eat healthy, but there's a difference between bringing in halal food and bringing in healthy food.

Yes- one has a Muslim name, and therefore is being seen as suspect. The sole reason they find it suspect is because of the Muslim name despite the fact it is the SAME THING as healthy food.

Then there is the issue of people accusing others of intolerance.

They don't want to be accused of intolerance, they shouldn't be intolerant.

After all, why are the concerns of those people not valid?

Because they're worried about fruit and veg because it has a Muslim name attached, in a school with at least 10% of its students being Muslims.

They might feel offended in ways you can't even imagine

I'm sorry, but how does this stop them being bigots?

as they find that the people accusing them are ignoring elements of that other culture on purpose.

The elements that aren't relevant in any way to this situation? Gee, imagine that.

People proud of their history and culture are branded bigot and intolerant

No, people who are intolerant bigots are branded bigot and intolerant.

And let's face it, it would be a bit weird to be totally proud of British imperialist history. It's not a period of history that was very nice or should be seen of as a proud achievement beyond "hey, we were a big powerful country that could beat up other countries once. Neat" and then moving on.

But if it's that insgnificant, then why should one give it up while others get the chance to change it to suit their cultural and religious needs?

If Muslims don't eat Halal food, they have to eat food they believe is forbidden by God. If Halal food is offered as an option to you, you have the choice of eating some fruit or kosher-style meat if you want to.

Note the difference between the two. It's insignificant for anyone non-Muslim because it's a type of food being offered as an option, and a type of food we are supposed to want schools to be offering children. We want them eating healthily in schools. There are government squabbles over it.

And why change it so obviously to suit the religious needs of a relatively new minority?

The "relatively new minority" that's been around in Britian for four decades and numbers in the millions? You want to bitch about suiting the needs of a minority, go bitch about the deliberate governmental preservation of Welsh language- Welsh-language speakers are a small minority, nobody bitches about them.

there are plenty of people who think that the old way of life is important, important enough to not let it be changed based by new influences.

And when they think it's incredibly important we don't let healthy food into schools, they're officially idiots and should be ignored.

Because they are BNP and they are inherently evil and bad and racist?

Yes. They are racist. They are bad. They are, in fact, completely against what the British flag is meant to represent. It's very simple- you support the BNP, you're supporting evil bastards who wouldn't know Britain if it came up to them and kicked them in their tiny nads.

You'll find that most people sympathising with the BNP and likewise organisations do so because they simply don't want to see elements of their life changed because of "outside" influences.

Or, to translate, they're scared of all those weird dark-skinned people who have some different cultural ways and are co-existing in relative harmony with mainstream British culture. Being shit-scared of Halal food is like being shit-scared of Welsh/English bilingual road signs, or the Scottish parliament.

They hold dear to their traditions and culture

Which aren't going anywhere. And note the BNP only exists in England, and not in the other three parts of the United Kingdom. Gee, I wonder why that is. Oh, wait, it's because we're a union and the different countries of the union - and in some cases, different regions of those countries - have different views on what their traditions and cultures are. Which is why the hardcore Welsh nationalists mutter darkly about England as the big threat to tradition and culture.

Why should my culture and country change to suit the needs of a religious minority?

Except... it isn't. Not in a way that actually matters. This whole Halal food thing is a non-issue where the fun is seeing all the bigots and idiots raising a fuss over it without seeming to know what Hala food is.

You are intolerant because you oppose halal food in school, you hate muslims, you are a bigot.

Yes. That's exactly it. Also, if you do it, you're an idiot. Because you're opposing kids being able to eat fruit in schools if they want to.

but the other party will only see it as an attack...

The BNP see everything as an attack anyway. Big whoop.

Why don't you speak out against the way they treat women?

I'm sorry, what has this got to do with the actual situation we were talking about?

But okay then. Show me incidents of fucktards who are Muslim that are treatin women badly in Britain, and I'll say "that's wrong". Plus, generally I'd have thought it bloody obvious that everyone round here is against women being treated badly. It's like "why don't you say how bad suicide bombers are!"- because it's bloody obvious they're bad, duh. Monkeys could figure out they're bad.

Why don't you speak out against the way they treat homosexuality?

Everyone that treats homosexuals badly is wrong, whatever their religion. I mean, duh.

Why don't you speak out against the intolerance of their culture and their ways and their attitudes?

I'm sorry, weren't you earlier saying how we have to protect our culture and society from all those other alien elements? It's a bit late to then complain about elements within another culture doing the exact same thing for the exact same reasons.

Christianity isn't the topic of discussion, so why bring it up

Nothing you and Bakema have brought up is the topic of discussion, but it hasn't stopped you, has it?

[king mob]

Which aren't going anywhere. And note the BNP only exists in England, and not in the other three parts of the United Kingdom.


Actually the BNP have made a huge inroad into Wales, and in the last election made a desperate attempt to gain a foothold in Scotland. Sadly the attempt was successful and there are gaining in popularity.

However their heartland is still Yorkshire, the South East and a few major cities outside these areas.

[thehod]

This is no different to the school putting Chicken Tikka Massala on the menu, and I bet there wouldn't have been a bloody outcry about that.

Small people, small minds, small opinions.

[Adam Crocker]

Now the school changes something, something small, to suit the needs of another culture, another religion, implying that certain ways are old, redundant, or even harmful. Something else is promoted as being better.

You know. I am continually amazed that when the basic facts are posted plain to see, for everyone to read, how people completely miss them anyways.

Nowhere, even in the article written by a bunch xenophobic racists like the BNP, does it actually say that the school was promoting Halal foods as better. Simply that it was offering it as an option since it has a significant number of Muslims in its population. Which wouldn't be any different were a school to offer the same foods because it has a significant number of Jews of Seventh Day Adventists in its population since they all follow the same dietary laws from the Book of Levictus in the Old Testament.

The question arises, first this, what next?

This is seriously making it out to be more than it actually is. If they started making concessions to Sharia law in British civil law I would be worried, but it's offering a dietary option for Muslim students in British schools, which does not necessarily impinge on other students food choices because as stated earlier, it is an option.

Every parent wants his child to eat healthy, but there's a difference between bringing in halal food and bringing in healthy food.

This contradicts your earlier statement that Halal might being healthier. It pretty much contradicts the information Charles posted on the very first post of this thread (and that's not going into the link he posted as well). As I said earlier it's basically a dietician's wet dream since it emphasizes milk, fresh produce, grains, and nuts and legumes. Going to the site itself none of the food deemed 'haram' (that which should be strictly avoided) impinges on a healthy diet really. (And in fact it's probably healthier to avoid pork since it's fairly fattening.)

So, no, there isn't that much of a difference save for losing out on the benefits of having a glass of red wine each day to reduce chance of coronary heart disease. Yet Seventh Day Adventists, who pretty much avoid alcohol as a rule I believe, in California are still some of the longest lived people in the world anyways.

If anything acussing others of being intolerant because they oppose halal food being served in school, only shows a certain bias and intolerance. After all, why are the concerns of those people not valid? Why are their beliefs more evil and less noble than those of others?

Because they are basically objecting to a minor change that in no way impinges on their lives because "it's not Christian," and they are whining about to the BNP, Britain's leading racist political group ever since the neo-Nazi National Front descended into irrelevance.

And for that matter the KKK could feel offended in ways I can't imagine when they desegregated schools. The rest of the reasons you cite for what the ojbections aren't so bad are just as weak in their logic as well. "Proud of their history and culture" is not the same thing as objecting to schools offering an option to accomodate Muslim students. It's throwing a fit over nothing at best, and essentially objecting to something different than your own way of life that affects you in no way. This is pretty blatant racism and I don't know how to make it plainer unless the BNP were to start calling them "wogs".

Why don't you speak out against the way they treat women?

I have no love for the theocracies found in Saudi Arabia or Iran, but how Islam is practiced in the Middle East is not necessarily the same with how it is practiced around the rest of the world, including in Britain. That's why no one brought it up. It's irrelevant to the discussion.


(Which is just trying to change the topic and avoiding the real confrontation. Christianity isn't the topic of discussion, so why bring it up...?)

Christianity has only been brought up insofar that the it has been used as the reason for objecting to the provision of Halal food as a choice at the high school. Of course there's nothing in Christianity that actually objects to schools providing meal options that adhere to the dietary laws in Levictus (in the case of Seventh Day Adventists, it's required). So all that saying "this offends Christian values" does is make plain the racist intent of those objections in the BNP article.

[Erkoban]

You know. I am continually amazed that when the basic facts are posted plain to see, for everyone to read, how people completely miss them anyways.

Nowhere, even in the article written by a bunch xenophobic racists like the BNP, does it actually say that the school was promoting Halal foods as better. Simply that it was offering it as an option since it has a significant number of Muslims in its population. Which wouldn't be any different were a school to offer the same foods because it has a significant number of Jews of Seventh Day Adventists in its population since they all follow the same dietary laws from the Book of Levictus in the Old Testament.

Read what I wrote.

That's how the BNP interprets it all. They go off their rockers because it's Halal, not because it's healthy. It's halal, it's different, it's being introduced in schools. That's the core of the story. The fact that the BNP makes a big fuss or even a small fuss over this is because they think that the government is instituting foreign influences because of a difference in importance. They fall over the issue because they think that their culture is being washed away and degraded.

People are fucktards, but they're never easy fucktards, there's always something of a motivation behind their actions, how skewered and disjionted they may appear for you and me, for them it's perfect logic and perfectly reasonable to think that way.


This is seriously making it out to be more than it actually is. If they started making concessions to Sharia law in British civil law I would be worried, but it's offering a dietary option for Muslim students in British schools, which does not necessarily impinge on other students food choices because as stated earlier, it is an option.

But that IS one of those points groups like the BNP have always used to get people in arms. "First they take your garden-gnome, next your civil liberties!"

The argument is also used by plenty of Americans when gun-debates come up "First they take your guns, then your freedom of speech and then you're a prisoner of Mother Russia"

It's quite an effective technique if you want to scare people. Because you deal with two things. You exagerate a current change by projecting it into the future as an absolute change. And you play into the fear of erosion. Because one small change is made, it will be followed with another and another, untill you're desensitized and you wake up in Iran. A silent killer. Slowly breaking down a situation one small detail at a time.



This contradicts your earlier statement that Halal might being healthier. It pretty much contradicts the information Charles posted on the very first post of this thread (and that's not going into the link he posted as well). As I said earlier it's basically a dietician's wet dream since it emphasizes milk, fresh produce, grains, and nuts and legumes. Going to the site itself none of the food deemed 'haram' (that which should be strictly avoided) impinges on a healthy diet really. (And in fact it's probably healthier to avoid pork since it's fairly fattening.)

The difference is the word used. The word holds power. That's the difference between Halal and Healthy. One is an islamic word, the other a general word used by all, utterly and totally inoffensive. WORDS.

Some people don't care about content, but they do care about style. The content is similair, but the style is different. And BNP dad won't lose a hair on his back if the school comes with a "Healthy food program!" that serves food that's also Halal. He will however have a fit when the school comes with a "Halal food program!" that serves the exact same food from the Healthy food program.

One implies a certain religion, another culture, the other, implies all and everything.

And it's not the BNP dads who get pissed over this issue, it's also the people who are sitting on the fence thinking "Geez, why Halal all of a sudden, this is Britain isn't it? Is that really necesary?"

So, no, there isn't that much of a difference save for losing out on the benefits of having a glass of red wine each day to reduce chance of coronary heart disease. Yet Seventh Day Adventists, who pretty much avoid alcohol as a rule I believe, in California are still some of the longest lived people in the world anyways.

The Japanese and Chinese are the longest lived people in the world, they don't eat Halal. Why not offer an All-Japanese diet at schools?

Because they are basically objecting to a minor change that in no way impinges on their lives because "it's not Christian," and they are whining about to the BNP, Britain's leading racist political group ever since the neo-Nazi National Front descended into irrelevance.

MYou think it minor they don't. That's where you seem to miss their point. Some people don't see the things you see in the same light. What is minor to you is major to them, and vice versa.

You don't have to agree with them to still understand where they are coming from.



I have no love for the theocracies found in Saudi Arabia or Iran, but how Islam is practiced in the Middle East is not necessarily the same with how it is practiced around the rest of the world, including in Britain. That's why no one brought it up. It's irrelevant to the discussion.

You and others missed the point there. At this point I'm no longer talking about the Halal-food issue, but on the issue of people calling eachother intolerant pricks, eager to point a finger and blame others without trying to see things from their side, as you are trying to see things from another person's point of view.

There is a discussion, you say Halal food is superior, it's better, we should adopt that part of their culture and fuse it to ours.

They say, but why stop there? Why not incorporate their ideas on women as well? After all, they seem to think it's perfectly healthy normal and even better than how we treat the difference between genders.

That's one of those things they use to get people worked up. If you want one thing that's good, then why not those others things they think are so incredibly "good" and then you bring in an example of intolerance on their side.

The response to that is usually or often enough, "but what about christianity then." my point there that this is a cop out that a clever man can easily use to twist and say "See you can't stick to the topic, we're not discussing christianity here."

with which you'll only lose more support.

People underestimate the tactics of parties such as the BNP, in fact they play right into their cards. People don't understand the mind of their opponent and they think they do know it, but they've trivialized and marginalized the issue, making the enemy stronger and more cunning, as they can use your weaknesses against you with ease.

[Typo Lad]

You're missing the point man.

They're not switching to an all-Halal menu. They're offering Halal dishes in addition to the existing fair.

No-one is saying "You gotta eat Halal" to the average British schoolkids. They're making more options.

How are more oprtions ever a bad thing?

[Winslow]

How are more oprtions ever a bad thing?

If the school can't afford more options, and decided to cut history books to accomodate, I'd say that's a bad thing.

*granted - this is a hypothetical- and has nothing to do with the facts presented.

There's obviously some baggage between minority Muslim demands and the broader culture that I'm not getting.

I didn't understand why the French forbid Muslim head scarves either.

But Erkoban makes a decent point, that to write off someone's objections without listening to their concerns isn't really helpful.

[Erkoban]

You're missing the point man.

No I'm not, the BNP is missing the point.

They're not switching to an all-Halal menu. They're offering Halal dishes in addition to the existing fair.

No-one is saying "You gotta eat Halal" to the average British schoolkids. They're making more options.

How are more oprtions ever a bad thing?

More options aren't a bad thing.

But the BNP can't accept that there are more options that aren't down their street. They want more options, but nothing that isn't british so to speak. They want to control the options, much like communist Russia where you could vote for a party, but regardless of what and who you'd vote for, you'd always end up voting for the same thing everybody else was voting for.

The BNP doesn't want Halal food, but they would like Healthy food, because the word Halal is a word they can't accept as a name in any issue. The school should call it healthy and serve it instead of calling it Halal, that takes the wind out of the BNP, they can't bitch about it anymore and if they can't make any noise they're going to die out fast and without much noise.

Cutting off their nuts in their sleep.

[heretic]

If the school can't afford more options, and decided to cut history books to accomodate, I'd say that's a bad thing.

*granted - this is a hypothetical- and has nothing to do with the facts presented.

There's obviously some baggage between minority Muslim demands and the broader culture that I'm not getting.

I didn't understand why the French forbid Muslim head scarves either.

But Erkoban makes a decent point, that to write off someone's objections without listening to their concerns isn't really helpful.
And when, upon hearing said concerns, it becomes rather clear that the complainers are at best clinically neurotic?

Perhaps it is because I grew up outside the definition of Traditional American Culture/Society by definition (and in a heavily immigrant city at that), I find many supposed fears for the cuntural purity of the land downright idiotic when they are not a code for restoring the days when those filthy Darkies/Heathens/Fuurners(tm) were hidden away properly.

HTG

[Dreadstar]

But Erkoban makes a decent point, that to write off someone's objections without listening to their concerns isn't really helpful.

You got to remember that it's easier to ask forgiveness than it is permission.

[heretic]

More options aren't a bad thing.

But the BNP can't accept that there are more options that aren't down their street. They want more options, but nothing that isn't british so to speak. They want to control the options, much like communist Russia where you could vote for a party, but regardless of what and who you'd vote for, you'd always end up voting for the same thing everybody else was voting for.

The BNP doesn't want Halal food, but they would like Healthy food, because the word Halal is a word they can't accept as a name in any issue. The school should call it healthy and serve it instead of calling it Halal, that takes the wind out of the BNP, they can't bitch about it anymore and if they can't make any noise they're going to die out fast and without much noise.

:rolleyes:

I suppose we should ban Hijabs, Turbans, and Non-English names to further weaken fuel for the BNPs rhetoric?

HTG

[Typo Lad]

Wait, so then aren't we now all in agreement that this is a silly thing to get upset about?

[SOGG]

Wait, so then aren't we now all in agreement that this is a silly thing to get upset about?

I'm with you. Strangely enough, it was another post in another thread that made me realise this.

Sometimes I just counterpost, even when the person is obviously agreeing with me.

Maybe I need conflict management training or something.

[Winslow]

Wait, so then aren't we now all in agreement that this is a silly thing to get upset about?

I suppose.

But in truth, we all get upset about silly things from time to time.

If I read Erkoban's posts correctly, he's advocating a pragmatic way to solve the problem without self-righteouss indignation and condemnation. And in that sense, I agree with him.

[Erkoban]

And when, upon hearing said concerns, it becomes rather clear that the complainers are at best clinically neurotic?

But have you actually listened, or have just heard them speak and then say "It's bullshit, you're a bigot, it's that cut and dry, piss off, I'm not going to listen to you."

Most people say they to the former but end up doing the latter. They don't want to understand, they don't want to go into a discussion with them on content. And that's what strengthens the leaders of the BNP.

"See they want to ignore us, they want to ignore our concerns, they're brushing us aside, what we predict is already happening!"

They'll end up claiming that they are being excluded on the basis of their principles and beliefs, and that they are being silenced by the group in power the same group they attack.

Ignoring the BNP is going to feed the BNP. Trivializing the BNP is playing straight into their cards.

Listen to them, listen to their arguments and then counter them. Not with one-liners that are designed to dismiss them, not by ridicule, but with logic and common sense. Nothing pisses an extremist off than offering the middle ground and presenting it as something utterly reasonable and agreeable.

Don't present the other side as something glorious. Because they'll throw that right back at you. Present the other side in the exact same light as you present the BNP.

The BNP preys on the other end of the spectrum and uses it to frighten the people in the middle, they use it as a frightening image to win the sheep over.

So you make a few concessions, or rather you're not going to play the role they want you to play. You're not going to act as if those others are absolutely flawless and that everything is a result of racism, because again, that's the response the BNP has been trained to abuse.

Perhaps it is because I grew up outside the definition of Traditional American Culture/Society by definition (and in a heavily immigrant city at that), I find many supposed fears for the cuntural purity of the land downright idiotic when they are not a code for restoring the days when those filthy Darkies/Heathens/Fuurners(tm) were hidden away properly.

HTG

Still you come from a background with traditions and with a culture of it's own, how much of it are you willing to surrender?

That's the question you're going to ask yourself if you want to see things the way the people of the BNP see things.

What would you sacrifice?

[Erkoban]

:rolleyes:

I suppose we should ban Hijabs, Turbans, and Non-English names to further weaken fuel for the BNPs rhetoric?

HTG

Exactly the point I'm trying to make.

You dismiss it per default, then exagerate it and you stop dealing with it.

And that's what the BNP wants, for you to act unreasonable and rigid, so they can point and say that they were right about you all along and that you will never listen.

The BNP is growing, and it's growing for a reason. That reason is because they're becoming reasonable in the eyes of a larger group, while your side is becoming less reasonable and is starting to do the things the BNP has openly accused you of doing in the eyes of the public.

[Adam Crocker]

Read what I wrote.

I did...

People are fucktards, but they're never easy fucktards, there's always something of a motivation behind their actions, how skewered and disjionted they may appear for you and me, for them it's perfect logic and perfectly reasonable to think that way.

Yeah, you're point? You said it was being promoted as "better." In another part of your response you said:

There is a discussion, you say Halal food is superior, it's better, we should adopt that part of their culture and fuse it to ours.

They say, but why stop there?

Except that I never said that. Nor did the school. They are offering Halal food as a menu option. Not promoting it as "better." See the follow-up at the end of this post.

The Japanese and Chinese are the longest lived people in the world, they don't eat Halal. Why not offer an All-Japanese diet at schools?

You missed my point entirely. The point I was making is that the foods that are deemed "Halal" emphasize healthy eating choices, which are also found among Sardinians and Okinawans who enjoy similar longevitiy. That still leaves out other factors like the SDA's emphasizing family and social connectedness, finding purpose in life through their religion, and being generally being strongly concerned with health so that they exercise regularly. (Apparently the SDA sect of Christianity as a whole is pretty health oriented as they also run a good number of hospitals and other health related institutions.)

You don't have to agree with them to still understand where they are coming from.

I do. It's still nonsense.

You and others missed the point there. At this point I'm no longer talking about the Halal-food issue, but on the issue of people calling eachother intolerant pricks, eager to point a finger and blame others without trying to see things from their side, as you are trying to see things from another person's point of view.

How exactly am I at fault for calling bigotry what it is, which is bigotry? This objection might make sense if I or Charles or anyone else were actually talking to people buying in to BNP propaganda, since that would necessitate trying to assuage their fears.

But none of us are.

And yes I am well aware of social conditions that lead to the rise of racism. The Nazis were able to get away with scapegoating Jews due to the economic problems that Germany faced in the early twenties and with the onset of the Great Depression, also exacerbated by the heavy reparations stipulated in Versaille which the country originally had to pay with its industrial heartland occupied and cut off from the country. The National Front in Britain was at it's most powerful in the late seventies when Britain was in the middle of a severe economic downturn and London's Carribbean population frequently had clashes with the Police who harassed them. It's about preying on irrational fears and using minorities as scapegoats for social and economic problems.

The response to that is usually or often enough, "but what about christianity then." my point there that this is a cop out that a clever man can easily use to twist and say "See you can't stick to the topic, we're not discussing christianity here."

And I can point out that he just said that he objected to it on the basis on Halal food offending Christian values, tell him what it means, and ask him where the Bible specifically objects to the dietary laws of Levictus. Otherwise, his use of Christianity is mistaken.

with which you'll only lose more support.

If the point of your post was to illustrate the mindset of the average person of the BNP that wasn't entirely clear. While it was clear in cases where stuck to illustrating the process by which people get iffy about different cultural practices coming in your point about Halal being presented as "better" came off as you claiming this as a statement of fact rather than emphasizing someone else's point of view. Same as when you said "Halal is different than healthy," and with the "why not object to their treatment of women point." Otherwise, you're post looks like it was trying to say that the BNP isn't that bad. Hence the responses from Charles and myself.

And if you are referring to people's earlier responses to Bakema's arguments, the problem was that he didn't even try to discuss this issue in the context of British society but made some tenuous connections between the story and the situation in the Middle East. And that just looked ridiculous.

[Charles RB]

Actually the BNP have made a huge inroad into Wales, and in the last election made a desperate attempt to gain a foothold in Scotland. Sadly the attempt was successful and there are gaining in popularity.

Ah shite. Now I'm depressed. :(

[Charles RB]

But Erkoban makes a decent point, that to write off someone's objections without listening to their concerns isn't really helpful.

Well, their concerns shouldn't be, to paraphrase Brass Eye, small and twatty then.

But have you actually listened, or have just heard them speak and then say "It's bullshit, you're a bigot, it's that cut and dry, piss off, I'm not going to listen to you."

I listened. It was bullshit and they were bigots, and yes it is that cut and dry.

They don't want to understand, they don't want to go into a discussion with them on content.

They have no content. Their fears and concerns are a load of arse.

The BNP is growing, and it's growing for a reason. That reason is because they're becoming reasonable in the eyes of a larger group,

So, yeah- how does this argue against their supporters being bigots and idiots? Lots of people now seeing the BNP as reasonable sounds like a really good indicator of how many stupid people there are. The stuff the BNP keeps talking about? Hardly any of it happens. It's all a total non-issue.

[Adam Crocker]

Well, their concerns shouldn't be, to paraphrase Brass Eye, small and twatty then.

In which case read this Guardian article (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/farright/comment/0,11375,1207511,00.html) and this one (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/farright/comment/0,11375,1267521,00.html) that details percisely how the BNP appeal to people. The concerns here are twatty and small yes, but they tie into problems that are not small and twatty, such as dislocation, loss of identity, and economic destitution. It seems that it's even making in roads into the middle class with the Telegraph urging the Tories to strike against "the black heart of Islam."


But Erkoban makes a decent point, that to write off someone's objections without listening to their concerns isn't really helpful.

Yes, if he made it in an exceedingly poor fashion.

Then again being called intolerance for pointing out bigotry is also something that turns down my conciliatory side and makes me prickly and resentful. And there aren't even any people likely to be swayed on the BNP on this thread to make the objection hold much ground with me.

[Erkoban]

I listened. It was bullshit and they were bigots, and yes it is that cut and dry.


If it is that cut and dry how come they still exist and are actually gaining power? Stupidity? Hardly. You'd wish, because you're probably afraid of them and there's something horribly wrong with people who hate out of anything other than stupidity.

and before you get your panties in a knot about that remark... there is something wrong IMHO if you DON'T fear what the BNP is preaching. There's something not right if you don't fear the existence of people who are deep into the BNP and support all their ideals.

Nobody likes to accept the fact that people out there are actually convinced that their hatred is justified, and it's frighteningly confrontational, because if you engage them in a debate, if you have to classify them as anything other than stupid, you have to accept them as rational human beings.

So go ahead call them stupid and make fun of them, but by doing so you're not really helping your cause, you're helping theirs.


They have no content. Their fears and concerns are a load of arse.

Then engage them in public debate, without ridicule, without making fun of them, without bitching about style and forms, because technical tricks suggest that you can't win it on the level that matters, namely content.

Expose their hollow ideals and thoughts, expose their flaws and scaremongering with reasonable debate. If they are so shallow and dumb it should be easy to finish them off in a public debate. If they're so dumb and wrong and you're so right and smart, then why are they gaining ground? It must be because your current methods aren't exactly working.


So, yeah- how does this argue against their supporters being bigots and idiots? Lots of people now seeing the BNP as reasonable sounds like a really good indicator of how many stupid people there are. The stuff the BNP keeps talking about? Hardly any of it happens. It's all a total non-issue.

See? Easy way. You're all bigots I'm not going to talk to you, you're bigots, you have no voice, I'm going to ignore you! Your concerns are of no importance to me, you are not a valid member of society!

If the BNP starts to sound reasonable, you should scratch yourself behind the ears and wonder how to change your tactics in order to win. And in order to do that, you have to reflect on your own shortcomings and their strengths.

It's easy to label dissenters as stupid.

Unfortunately it only shows that your side is more stupid, because obviously you don't have a plan to win them back to your side, and you obviously have failed to oppose those stupid people and beat them.

Go ahead, keep your attitude and keep doing the things you're currently doing, but I assure you, it won't stop the BNP from GAINING power.

[Spike-X]

The BNP doesn't want Halal food, but they would like Healthy food, because the word Halal is a word they can't accept as a name in any issue. The school should call it healthy and serve it instead of calling it Halal, that takes the wind out of the BNP...

I see your point.

However, it misses the point of introducing Halal menu items. While Halal food can be described as healthy, the word itself doesn't simply mean "healthy". As I understand it, Halal refers to how the food is actually prepared, the way in which animals are slaughtered for their meat, etc. Food can be healthy without being Halal. For these menu items to be acceptable to Muslims, they have to be Halal. Which means they have to be labelled as such. And if the racist fucktards at the BNP don't like it, too bloody bad for them.

Introducing Halal menu items into British schools is about as much of a threat to British culture as introducing fried rice or lamb kebabs. For the BNP to claim otherwise is an outright lie, plain and simple. Why should we cater to lies?

[Charles RB]

If it is that cut and dry how come they still exist and are actually gaining power? Stupidity?

Yes, that's exactly it. How else would you term it when people, in the face of actual problems, allow a group of known arseholes to convince them "the real problem are these guys over here who aren't like you! Look at how they're attacking our way of life!", even though they're not? Stupidity sounds like a good term for that. I mean, right here there are people who think it's a sign of the British way of life under threat because different types of food is being offered, as optional, in schools- you can't tell me that the fuss over Halal food is anything but being dim.

there is something wrong IMHO if you DON'T fear what the BNP is preaching.

It's not the message that's scary. It's people listening and thinking they have a point.

if you engage them in a debate, if you have to classify them as anything other than stupid, you have to accept them as rational human beings.

Except I'm not engaging them in a debate. I was saying "look how stupid the BNP and their supporters are, cacking themselves over food", and having a vent. It's hard to hear someone complain "I was called a racist because I said serving fruit was wrong!" and not vent & think them stupid.

Yes, there are groups and random arseholes that should, when the opportunity is there, be debated against and have their crappy worldview methodically poked at to show the big gaping logic holes- but, to be honest, I didn't come here with the intention of doing that, I came here to slag them off in my spare time. It's not like the BNP or their supporters is going to see that. You can methodically and calmly take apart a really bad comic to show how it's bad, but people who do that are still going to want to let their hair down and just say "that comic SUCKED!" at times.

So go ahead call them stupid and make fun of them, but by doing so you're not really helping your cause, you're helping theirs.

They're watching this forum then?

And I'm calling them stupid because, well, the BNP's entire worldview is stupid and what can you do but make fun of the twonks? I'm not going to waste time treating them like a real political party anymore than I'd waste time thinking pro-terrorist Islamic fundamentalist clerics are people with a valid point.

See? Easy way. You're all bigots I'm not going to talk to you, you're bigots, you have no voice, I'm going to ignore you! Your concerns are of no importance to me, you are not a valid member of society!

Well, yes, generally people do ignore bigots when they're being bigoted. Do you really want to waste valuable time listening to how those scary immigrants are taking our jobs?

It's easy to label dissenters as stupid.

No, it's easy to label people who are willing to be told their neighbour is trying to destroy their way of life as stupid when said neighbour isn't doing anything except being different to the English norm.

it won't stop the BNP from GAINING power.

The BNP aren't that convincing.

[Adam Crocker]

However, it misses the point of introducing Halal menu items. While Halal food can be described as healthy, the word itself doesn't simply mean "healthy". As I understand it, Halal refers to how the food is actually prepared, the way in which animals are slaughtered for their meat, etc.

Specifically it means "permissible" under Islamic law, though in non-Arabic countries it is generally used in a fashion more similar to "kosher" (though apparently the proper term for it is 'Kashrut') in that it refers to food permitted under dietary laws. Slaughtering a cow properly is a way of ensuring that cow's meat meets this requirement. And some foods are considered 'Halal' without necessarily needing proper preparation.

[Unknown soldier]

Oh la la, censorship where there's none needed, freedom of speech tread upon and it wasn't even harsh or anything, but alas....gone is my last post and probably some that came after it. Still had fun though, it was quite interesting for a variety of reasons, thanks to everybody who contributed. :)

And Erkoban, sounds like you got it, but "they" will never see it that way or even want to give you some understanding why you see things your way.....in which you are not alone, not by a longshot.
Ignoring problems, ignoring certain people, cutting people off, censoring whatever stuff there is and that will get you a long way.

[Dreadstar]

So long for good...

[Ed Cunard]

Bakema, evading a temporary ban usually leads to a permanent one.

[Unknown soldier]

So long for good...

Ah well...

I don't like this kind of censorship much. If there was something really harsh and personal in it, but that was not the case, there was way more stuff thrown at me and I didn't fall for that trap, other people did.

So if that gives me a permanent ban then it says a lot about this site.

And I can always hook up my modem, although it would be a little pointless. ;)

[Ed Cunard]

Condescending all the way out the door...

Again, it's not censorship. It's rules. This site--private, with agreed-upon user terms.

[warspite1805]

Why did Bakema get banned, his banning is news to me? :confused:

[Unknown soldier]

Condescending all the way out the door...

Again, it's not censorship. It's rules. This site--private, with agreed-upon user terms.

That's a way of evading too wouldn't you say?

You know what's dangerous when it comes to bigots/bigotry (or whatever kind of people).....ignoring them, giving them no rights, making things difficult for them, trying to not let them be heard..........because they can gain in power as a result of it, examples aplenty. Censorship on opinions......never a good thing, wherever it is.

[Typo Lad]

passes out the popcorn.

Don't worry, it's Kosher.

[Unknown soldier]

Why did Bakema get banned, his banning is news to me? :confused:

It was to me too :), no explanation, nothing. And a post removed.....

[Typo Lad]

You know what's dangerous when it comes to bigots/bigotry (or whatever kind of people).....ignoring them, giving them no rights, making things difficult for them, trying to not let them be heard..........because they can gain in power as a result of it, examples aplenty. Censorship on opinions......never a good thing, wherever it is.

So what you're saying is we shouldn't ignore you because you're a bigot and ignoring you would lead to pogroms?

Oh I'm gonna miss you.

[Unknown soldier]

So what you're saying is we shouldn't ignore you because you're a bigot and ignoring you would lead to pogroms?

Oh I'm gonna miss you.

Here you go again, taking it another way than it was meant.

[Ed Cunard]

That's a way of evading too wouldn't you say?

You know what's dangerous when it comes to bigots/bigotry (or whatever kind of people).....ignoring them, giving them no rights, making things difficult for them, trying to not letting them be heard..........because they can gain in power as a result of it, examples aplenty. Censorship on opinions......never a good thing, wherever it is.

Again, it wasn't your opinion being censored--Erkoban obviously shares your opinions on some things in this thread, and Winslow expressed agreement to the not-discounting-the-opinions-of-others-outright thing.

It's not what you say, it's how you say it. Is that always enforced evenly across the board? No. But they try, for the most part, and like anybody, they're not infallible. And it's, again, their board to run as they see fit. If you don't like that, there are other boards out there--find one that suits you better.

Things get heated here--a lot. Sometimes, annoyingly so (and sometimes I'm part of the problem, I'll admit). However, most of the heated back-and-forth doesn't fall back on an explicitly admitted "lets see if I can piss you off, because I'm above being pissed off myself, so I win"--that's passive-aggressive behavior.

[Dreadstar]

Why did Bakema get banned, his banning is news to me? :confused:

For breaking the prominently posted rules of civility, would be my guess.

Only the mods know for sure. And if you asked 'em they'd probably tell you that they don't air the reasons in public. See, he got a short little temp ban for whatever indiscretion, and THEN bought himself the permanent ticket with this evasion.

For future reference, warsprite, if you get a 1 day ban to cool off, don't try to evade the ban by logging on as a "new" personality. That's a ticket to permanent. Trying to get the last word in is kind of sad and pitiful, anyways...

[Dreadstar]

So what you're saying is we shouldn't ignore you because you're a bigot and ignoring you would lead to pogroms?

Oh I'm gonna miss you.

Don't worry, another one will come along.


They always do.

[Ed Cunard]

passes out the popcorn.

Don't worry, it's Kosher.

Stop invading my non-Kosher realm, Mr. Person-Whose-Religion-I-Do-Not-Practice.

[Dreadstar]

It's not what you say, it's how you say it.

Such a simple little phrase. Such a difficult concept for some.

[Unknown soldier]

Again, it wasn't your opinion being censored--Erkoban obviously shares your opinions on some things in this thread, and Winslow expressed agreement to the not-discounting-the-opinions-of-others-outright thing.

It's not what you say, it's how you say it. Is that always enforced evenly across the board? No. But they try, for the most part, and like anybody, they're not infallible. And it's, again, their board to run as they see fit. If you don't like that, there are other boards out there--find one that suits you better.

Things get heated here--a lot. Sometimes, annoyingly so (and sometimes I'm part of the problem, I'll admit). However, most of the heated back-and-forth doesn't fall back on an explicitly admitted "lets see if I can piss you off, because I'm above being pissed off myself, so I win"--that's passive-aggressive behavior.

There's no win in this one. There is something a lot of people can't deal with. And where two fight...if you would call it that...two are probably guilty. Again, just my opinion.

[Ed Cunard]

Such a simple little phrase. Such a difficult concept for some.

Hey, I struggle with it too. I've been an ass to people before (and, in all likelihood, I'll probably be an ass to people again), and I regret it.

[Ed Cunard]

There's no win in this one. There is something a lot of people can't deal with. And where two fight...if you would call it that...two are probably guilty. Again, just my opinion.

And two got banned, if you missed that. You and StoneGold. He's not back under another screenname.

[Charles RB]

So if that gives me a permanent ban then it says a lot about this site.

Yes, it says this site doesn't like people who create a new account to get around temp bans because that's basically a middle finger to the moderator team. And lots of other sites do the same.

[Unknown soldier]

Such a simple little phrase. Such a difficult concept for some.

No, not difficult, intended that way. So I'm wrong for saying things the way I say it, I don't wear satin gloves all the time. The world must be a scary place for people if they can't deal with how people put things........and I know lots of worse cases than what I said, you people probably deal with it too from time to time, at work, or wherever.

[Dreadstar]

Hey, I struggle with it too. I've been an ass to people before (and, in all likelihood, I'll probably be an ass to people again), and I regret it.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm as big an offender in the "how you say it" vein, as well.

[Charles RB]

passes out the popcorn.

Don't worry, it's Kosher.

Awwww. I like my popcorn bloody. :(

[Unknown soldier]

And two got banned, if you missed that. You and StoneGold. He's not back under another screenname.

No, missed that, I don't go back searching for whomever else was banned.
And another screen name is like a middle finger.........I would have done something else if I was mad at them or anything, but there's no need to.

[Ed Cunard]

Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm as big an offender in the "how you say it" vein, as well.

Oh, I know you are.

...

I was just trying to make myself a little stool to help me step down off of my high horse.

[Dreadstar]

No, not difficult, intended that way.
So your intent was to be abrasive all along? That's being a troll.
So I'm wrong for saying things the way I say it, I don't wear satin gloves all the time. The world must be a scary place for people if they can't deal with how people put things.
I deal with it every day.

I'm happy that I don't have to at CBR.

[Erkoban]

If you don't understand someone then ask what that person means.

When you read something and go "Holy poop on a stick! He did not just say what I think he said!?" then it's wise to ask in a polite manner "What do you mean?".

Otherwise it just becomes a shouting match between a lot of people not getting eachother.

Also on the internet it's probably wise to assume a certain level of inability instead of malice. The differences in culture and background affect how people say things. What can be seen as an insult in one region can be seen as perfectly acceptable in another.

If you hail from a place where you have to be direct in what you say you tend to be more direct in what you say, but if you come from a background in which the undertone is just as important, someone who's direct can come across as hostile and aggresive.

[Typo Lad]

Stop invading my non-Kosher realm, Mr. Person-Whose-Religion-I-Do-Not-Practice.

I'm just offering it as an alternative!

[Dreadstar]

If you hail from a place where you have to be direct in what you say you tend to be more direct in what you say, but if you come from a background in which the undertone is just as important, someone who's direct can come across as hostile and aggresive.

And if the majority of the people you're interacting with tell you that they perceive that you're being hostile and agressive, naturally you would...?

[Dreadstar]

I'm just offering it as an alternative!

Oh, sure. Right.

Hey! What's this coupon for 5% off a bris doing in my popcorn?

[Charles RB]

I'm just offering it as an alternative!

Like hell, this is just the beginning! Soon you'll be building synagogues in the middle of small villages and clamouring to have everyone legally forced to be circumcised!

[Ed Cunard]

Oh, sure. Right.

Hey! What's this coupon for 5% off a bris doing in my popcorn?

At least it's just the coupon...

[Erkoban]

And if the majority of the people you're interacting with tell you that they perceive that you're being hostile and agressive, naturally you would...?

Like I said, it's a cultural thing.

If you come from a country where the culture is one of bluntness and being direct, it will reflect in your use of words. The same goes for those who were raised in a country and culture that's dominated by machismo. Americans have a different approach to bringing a message than British, and they are both completely different from the South Africans, who are just as far removed from the Japanese as the Japanese are removed from Moroccans.

[Dreadstar]

Like I said, it's a cultural thing.

If you come from a country where the culture is one of bluntness and being direct, it will reflect in your use of words. The same goes for those who were raised in a country and culture that's dominated by machismo. Americans have a different approach to bringing a message than British, and they are both completely different from the South Africans, who are just as far removed from the Japanese as the Japanese are removed from Moroccans.


But... but... you just said the same thing over again, and avoided the question altogether.

[Erkoban]

But... but... you just said the same thing over again, and avoided the question altogether.

You asked a question based on something that was not related directly to what I said.

Different cultures, different approaches to delivering messages.

Your question was already answered, before you posed it.

[Typo Lad]

Hey! What's this coupon for 5% off a bris doing in my popcorn?

Only 5% off? Lucky stiff.

[Dreadstar]

You asked a question based on something that was not related directly to what I said.

Different cultures, different approaches to delivering messages.

Your question was already answered, before you posed it.
No. It wasn't.

If a bunch of people tell you that they perceive you as being hostile or aggressive in a thread WHATEVER THE REASON, what do you do?

That's my question to you.

How do you RESPOND?

Hell, I thought post #124 was pretty self-explantory. Was I wrong? Ed? Typo? Charles?

[Dreadstar]

Only 5% off? Lucky stiff.

I think the Mohel is angling for a tip.

[Ed Cunard]

Maybe it's cultural, Dread, because I got your point, and we're completely culturally alike (except in the aspects where we aren't).

Personally, I see a difference between direct and obnoxious:

Direct: I believe what you are saying is wrong, and based on some faulty reasoning.

Obnoxious: You're a fucking moron. My opinion is obviously better.

Edit: And that's also to say that I get E's point regarding how one addresses BNP members--you can't convert them to the other side by telling them how backwards they are, even if you think they are backwards.

That said, Bakema's deleted posts weren't, I think, a case of cultural differences or telling-it-like-it-is-ism. It was pretty much a "ooh, look, you're getting riled up, so I'm getting to you," which, oddly, isn't direct at all.

[Typo Lad]

Was I wrong? Ed? Typo? Charles?

You're asking me if you're right?

It's like Chanukah done come early@

[Erkoban]

No. It wasn't.

If a bunch of people tell you that they perceive you as being hostile or aggressive in a thread WHATEVER THE REASON, what do you do?

That's my question to you.

How do you RESPOND?

Hell, I thought post #124 was pretty self-explantory. Was I wrong? Ed? Typo? Charles?


See, I thought it was rhetorical question.

If a bunch of people tell me I'm hostile I'm going to rephrase, or ask why they think I'm hostile, or I can just drop the subject and walk away, or I can tell them I didn't mean for it to come across as hostile.

I don't know what I would do, depends on the situation, my mood, the people I'm talking to, the subject, the thing I'm trying to say.

I hate what if-scenarios because I'm lousy at thinking up a good probable scenario.