The Fantasy and Sci-Fi Canon

[Tages]

After our recent discussion of the best sci-fi writers, I think it's time to lay down a canon. You know, a Big Official List (tm) of books, similar to the Western Canon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Canon) that everyone ought to read if they wish to experience the full breadth and quality of science fiction as a literary genre. Similarly (and separate), a BOL (tm) of fantasy novels for the same purpose would be appropriate.

Here are some preliminary picks:

Sci-fi Canon

"Stranger in a Strange Land" by Robert Heinlein

Isaac Asimov's original Foundation Trilogy ("Foundation," "Foundation and Empire," and "Second Foundation")

"The Left Hand of Darkness" by Ursula K. Le Guin

"Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?" by Phillip K. Dick

"Neuromancer" by William Gibson


Fantasy Canon
The "Lord of the Rings" Trilogy by J.R.R. Tolkien (to get the obvious out of the way)
"The Hobbit"



What should be added?

[Slam_Bradley]

"The Martian Chronicles" by Ray Bradbury

[JeffreyWKramer]

The various SCIENCE FICTION HALL OF FAME volumes, particularly the first volume, featuring the best SF short stories before the advent of the Nebula Awards, as chosen by the members of the SF Writers of America. Some fantastic stuff from all the expected folk, including such treasures as Asimov's "Nightfall" and Van Vogt's "The Weapon Shop." Subsequent volumes include the best novellas and the early Nebula winners, and feature such incredible works as Ellison's "A Boy and His Dog" and "Repent, Harlequin Said the Ticktockman", Keyes' "Flowers for Algernon", Moorcock's "Behold the Man" and Zelazny's "The Dream Master." This stuff is the core of SF up to that point in time.

DANGEROUS VISIONS, edited by Harlan Ellison. The best original SF anthology of all time, period. The second volume, AGAIN, DANGEROUS VISIONS, doesn't suck, either.

ENDER'S GAME by Orson Scott Card. I loathe Card's politics and am not fond of many of his books, but damn, he hit the ball out of the park on this one. Probably the first author since Heinlen to produce quality SF aimed at a youth audience which did not condescend to that audience, and which is as fully enjoyable at every level by adult audiences.

THE MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE by Philip K. Dick. The most notable early example of alt history SF, and still arguably the best.

THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN (four volumes) by Gene Wolfe. The best-written SF of all time.

FRANKENSTEIN by Mary Shelley. The best candidate for first true SF novel, and definitely the best-written of all such candidates.

THE STARS, MY DESTINATION by Alfred Bester. The best early example of antihero SF, and still one of the best of all time. This helped set up the New Wave of the 60s.

THE LOVERS by Philip Jose Farmer. Farmer's frank exploration of sexuality also expanded the boundaries of what could be addresed in mainstream SF.

DR. JEKYL AND MR. HYDE by Robert Lewis Stevenson. Probably the first SF to examine the question of personality and identity.

DEATHBIRD STORIES by Harlan Ellison. The best original collection of stories by arguably the best short story writer in the history of SF.

EDIT: I'll likely add more as I think on this, and I approve of the choices already listed.

More edit: I forgot to include DUNE. Duh to me.

[anansi]

Science Fiction

The Stars My Destination Alfred Bester
Lord of Light Roger Zelazny
A Deepness in the Sky Vernor Vinge
Kindred Octavia Butler
Childhood's End Arthur C. Clark
A Clockwork Orange Anthony Burgess
Ringworld Larry Niven
To Your Scattered Bodies Go Philip Jose Farmer
Dune Frank Herbert
The HitchHiker's Guide to the Galaxy Douglas Adams


Fantasy

The Chronicles of Amber Roger Zelazny
The Hour of the Dragon Robert E. Howard
Lord Valentine's Castle Robert Silverberg
The Neverending Story Michael Ende
The Elric Saga Michael Moorcock

[FBHthelizardmage]

Consider Phillibus. Ian M Banks.

Singularity Sky (though I prefer Iron sunrise)

Revolation Space.

[Bright-Raven]

Canonical SF / F:

Issac Asimov = everything
Alfred Bester = everything
Ray Bradbury = everything
Arthur C. Clarke = everything
Julie Czerneda = everything
Samuel R. Delany = everything
Philip K. Dick = everything
Harlan Ellison = everything
Robt. Heinlein = everything
Frank Herbert = everything
Damon Knight = everything
James White = everything
E.E. "Doc" Smith = everything
Murray Leinster = everything
Ursula K. LeGuin = everything
J.R.R. Tolkien = everything
Theodore Sturgeon = everything
Hal Clement = everything
Brian Aldiss = everything
John Wyndham = everything
James Alan Gardner = everything
Roger Zelazny = everything
Stanislaw Lem = everything
Olaf Stapledon = everything
H.G. Wells = everything
Jules Verne = everything
Kurt Vonnegut = everything
Frederick Pohl = everything

Not thinking of other writers where you should likely read everything they've done at the moment. As I come up with titles, if I put a * by the author's name, just presume that means find whatever you can by them and try it.

Now, for a hefty list:

1984- George Orwell

Earth Abides - George R. Stewart

Limbo - Bernard Wolfe

The Paradox Men - Charles L. Harness

Ring Around The Sun - Clifford D. Simak*

The Death of Grass (AKA No Blade Of Grass) - John Christopher

A Case of Conscience - James Blish*

A Canticle For Leibowitz - Walter Miller

Rogue Moon - Algis Budrys*

A Clockwork Orange - Anthony Burgess

The Drowned World - J.G. Ballard*

The Wanderer - Fritz Leiber*

Norstrilla - Cordwainer Smith (Two Volume collection of THE PLANET BUYER & THE UNDERPEOPLE)

Make Room! Make Room! - Harry Harrison* (AKA the basis for SOYLENT GREEN)

Flowers For Algernon - Daniel Keyes

Tau Zero - Poul Anderson

The Embedding - Ian Watson

Walk To The End Of The World - Suzy McKee Charnas

Orbitsville - Bob Shaw

The Alteration - Kingsley Amis

Woman On the Edge of Time - Marge Piercy

Juniper Time - Kate Wilhelm*

The Dreaming Dragons - Damien Broderick

Wild Seed - Octavia Butler*

The Unreasoning Mask - Phillip Jose' Farmer*

No Enemy But Time - Michael Bishop*

The Enemy Papers - Barry M. Longyear (collection, includes Enemy Mine)

Waiting For The Galactic Bus - Parke Godwin*

Hyperion - Dan Simmons*

Moving Mars - Greg Bear*

The Ender series by Orson Scott Card

The Mars Trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson*

Brave New World - Aldous Huxley

Invasion of the Body Snatchers - Jack Finney

Mists of Avalon - Marion Zimmer Bradley*

Children of the Atom - Wilmar Shiras

The Forever War - Joe Haldeman*

I Am Legend - Richard Matheson*

The Thomas Covenant series - Stephen Donaldson

Ringworld - Larry Niven*

The Postman - David Brin* (Don't let the Costner movie ruin it for you)

Contact - Carl Sagan

The John Carter / Mars books -Edgar Rice Burroughs *

Slan - A.E. Van Vogt*

Dragonflight - Anne McCaffrey*

Downbelow Station - C.J. Cherryh*

The Doomsday Book - Connie Willis*

Alice In Wonderland - Lewis Carroll

Oz series - Frank L. Baum

Solaris - Stanislaw Lem*

The Andromeda Strain - Michael Chrichton

Dreamsnake- Vonda McIntyre*

The Snow Queen- Joan D. Vinge*

A Fire Upon the Deep- Vernor Vinge*

The Falling Woman- Pat Murphy

The Terminal Experiment- Robert J. Sawyer *

Slow River- Nicola Griffith*

The Many-Colored Land- Julian May

Beyond Apollo- Barry N. Malzberg*

The Year of the Quiet Sun- Wilson Tucker

Brute Orbits- George Zebrowski

A Swiftly Tilting Planet(?) - Madeleine L'Engle *

Chronicles of Narnia - C.S. Lewis*

******

I think I'll pause now and let the rest of you catch up.

[leonaozaki]

Fantasy Canon
The "Lord of the Rings" Trilogy by J.R.R. Tolkien (to get the obvious out of the way)
"The Hobbit"




I fully agree that THE LORD OF THE RINGS should be on the list but it's not a trilogy. It's one book, printed as three.

rob

[Erkoban]

Foundation, everything following the first book falls apart. I felt cheated out of my experience when I read the second book, oh how it missed the glory and tone of the first novel. Brides, clowns, and mutants, they didn't make a succesful combination. The first half however is decent and worth the trouble.

Silverberg's Dying Inside is an excellent read, and one of the few books that made the concept of telepathy probable and interesting. No longer the painful superpower to shape worlds with, but the talent of a man who suffers because of it.

Sawyer's God in the Machine, what happens when we discover through science that there IS a soul and we can pinpoint the exact moment it leaves the body.

Ender's Game, but none of the sequels. Like the Foundation Trilogy the first book is an excellent read, but everything that follows the first novels falls horribly apart.

Dune, all six books, as the scope of the universe is excellent, and the depth of the first four books not matched. The fourth book is a pain to get through, but it's a very statisfying read when you put it down. Dune has that whole quality of making me think and making me appreciate intellect. It challenges the reader to think and theorize. Herbert is one of the few writers who has perfectioned his writing style. He's subtle and eloquent.

[seaflower]

For Fantasy

Marion Zimmer Bradleys

"Darkover Series" and "Mist of Avalon"

[Zissou]

I don't read very much science fiction, but I do read a fair bit of fantasy. I largely agree with many of the picks thus far. On top of my list is:

Fantasy

J. R. R. Tolkien - The Lord of the Rings

George R. R. Martin - A Song of Ice and Fire (or at least what we have so far)

Michael Moorecock - The Elric Saga

I'll probably catch hell for this, but I would also put Beowulf on this list. I have several translation of this work and I love everyone of them.

[Doodle Bob]

I don't read very much science fiction, but I do read a fair bit of fantasy. I largely agree with many of the picks thus far. On top of my list is:

Fantasy

J. R. R. Tolkien - The Lord of the Rings

George R. R. Martin - A Song of Ice and Fire (or at least what we have so far)

Michael Moorecock - The Elric Saga

I'll probably catch hell for this, but I would also put Beowulf on this list. I have several translation of this work and I love everyone of them.

I think it's way too early to put Song of I and F on the Canon list so far. The point of a canon is that it is literature that after a good amount of time, people are still reading. Ironcially it is not necessarily always the best of its time.

Beowulf, I suppose, should be there, although its original audience certainly didn't classify it as "fantasy." It was just a good story. But if that gets on there, you really need to add the Nibelungenlied and various Icelandic sagas.

The Conan series and the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser series need to be on that list.

[Jonathan Bogart]

Part of the point of a canon is to throw boundaries around an unwieldy mass of work, to create order where there is none. Just listing every science fiction or fantasy book that someone's liked is kind of self-defeating. Seems to me that the more limitations you can put on this thing, the better (as an Everyone Must Read This list) it'll be.

To that end, I'd suggest:

Instituting a "One Author, One Work" rule, which can be got around by considering trilogies or other series as a single unified work. Otherwise, the list might just as well consist of "everything Philip K. Dick ever wrote."

Defining beginning and ending dates. "Frankenstein" is only science fiction retroactively; at the time, it was one of any number of Gothic romances (in the sense of impossible events, not the falling-in-love sense). H. G. Wells or Jules Verne might be a better candidate for the "beginning" date. And closing dates, after which no entries will be considered, are useful, as Doodle Bob notes, in order for some perspective. Tentatively, then: 1890-1990?

Keeping the list to classic works. There are plenty of classic authors, full of good ideas and original thoughs, who never managed to write that one great book which demands to be read. Such people are usually left out of the traditional literary canon, and they should probably be left out here, unless you want a separate "hall of fame" category for writers.

Figuring out what to do with short stories. Short stories are an important part of the history of science fiction (and to a lesser degree, fantasy). The trouble is that it's tough to say that any given short story has equal weight with any given novel; they're separate forms. It might be an idea to create separate sub-lists of Novels and Short Stories within the Science Fiction and Fantasy category; or, as Jeffrey suggests, just include a few of the classic anthologies.

And ruthless editing. Top 100 Lists are just more useful than Top 1,000 Lists, no matter how deserving the other 900 entries are.

Anyway, as I'm (kind of famously) not much of a science fiction or fantasy fan, I've got no real suggestions to make, other than I didn't see A Canticle for Leibowitz anywhere. Hope no one takes offense at the above Suggestions of Order: as a confirmed list-maker, these are rules that have helped me in developing my own private canons.

[JeffreyWKramer]

"Frankenstein" is only science fiction retroactively; at the time, it was one of any number of Gothic romances (in the sense of impossible events, not the falling-in-love sense).


I disagree pretty strongly with this. While FRANKENSTEIN was indeed a gothic romance, it is more than that, and in a way which is important. Citations were made in the novel to nerve conductivity and other scientific principles known at the time, and the core theme - creation of life from dead matter - was framed in scientific, rather than purely mystical/fantastic, terms. This makes it a much different work than, say, a period vampire novel.

Wells himself referred to FRANKENSTEIN as an inspiration, and specifically cited the blend of science, metaphysics and fiction.

[howyadoin]

Canonical SF / F:

Frank Herbert = everythingI'm a big Herbert fan, but I wouldn't in a million years consider The Godmakers to be a book "that everyone ought to read if they wish to experience the full breadth and quality of science fiction as a literary genre."

[Jonathan Bogart]

I disagree pretty strongly with this. While FRANKENSTEIN was indeed a gothic romance, it is more than that, and in a way which is important. Citations were made in the novel to nerve conductivity and other scientific principles known at the time, and the core theme - creation of life from dead matter - was framed in scientific, rather than purely mystical/fantastic, terms. This makes it a much different work than, say, a period vampire novel.
That's all true (and well put); and Frankenstein certainly fits all the criteria for science fiction except one, which is important to me but may not be to others. And that is that science fiction implies a degree of awareness of itself as a genre. Indeed, I see it as a movement more than a genre, which really came to a head — in that there was a mass consciousness of something new in the world, and a direct, immediate copying of that something in the popular press — with Wells' "scientific romances" and the English translations of Verne's fantastic (in the generic, not laudatory sense) novels.

Certainly Mary Shelley's intention was to create something new — that was what her entire circle reveled in. But until the later popularity of scientific romances, Frankenstein was more of an experimental literary novelty (like, say, Ulysses) than a beachhead. As far as I can tell, anyway; and I'm pretty well up in nineteenth-century popular literature.

To make a comparison that may or may not be acceptable, it's like claiming the Bayeaux Tapestry is comics when what everybody means by comics is those little picture-stories in newspapers and later in cheap magazines. The best that can be claimed for it is "forerunner" status, in my view.

I don't know; maybe I'm too dogmatic about genres, or too involved in their historical trends. But just because Jane Austen's books conform to romantic conventions doesn't get her books filed under Romance (which as a specifically marketed genre coalesced between 1910 and 1920), and what we today think of as Fantasy had few practitioners before Tolkien, though fantastic literature is as old as mankind. "Pssht. Marketing." Yeah, well, all categories are just artificial boundaries to try to make some sense out of the great mass of stuff out there.

Reading over what I wrote, my habit of looking at books as the product of their times, instead of ignoring the publication date and concentrating on what's inside, might be the main focus of disagreement here. Or, since I like Frankenstein, that might be why I don't want to call it science fiction....

[howyadoin]

That's all true (and well put); and Frankenstein certainly fits all the criteria for science fiction except one, which is important to me but may not be to others. And that is that science fiction implies a degree of awareness of itself as a genre.Y'know, in more than 30 years of reading sci-fi, I've never heard that criteria before.

[Pól Rua]

Please ignore

[Slam_Bradley]

That's all true (and well put); and Frankenstein certainly fits all the criteria for science fiction except one, which is important to me but may not be to others. And that is that science fiction implies a degree of awareness of itself as a genre.


How can there be a self-awareness of genre when the genre doesn't exist as such? Your "definition" would preclude Verne and arguably H. G. Wells as being science fiction. The genre didn't become aware of itself as a genre until Hugo Gernsback's time.

[Karl J. Barnes]

Fantasy:

E R Eddison- The Worm Ourboros

[Iangould]

HG Wells: War of the Worlds
HG Wells - The Time Machine
Olaf Stapledon - Last and First Men
John Wyndham - The Day of the Triffids
Alfred Bester: The Demolished Man
Alfred Bester: The Stars My Destination

And a couple of dark horses:

Murray Leinster: Fury
Stanley Weinbaum: The New Adam
Ward Moore: Bring the Jubille
L. Ron hubbard: Final Blackout (Yes, he was a bastard but he was a bastard who could write exceptionally well on occasion)
Donald Kingsbury: Geta

Fantasy

Fletcher Pratt: The Well of the Unicorn
Poul Anderson: The Broken Sword
John Brunner: The Traveller in Black

[Karl J. Barnes]

Fantasy


Poul Anderson: The Broken Sword


Oh, I loved this novel!

SF:

John Brunner- Crucible of Time

Damon Knight's short stories.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Or, since I like Frankenstein, that might be why I don't want to call it science fiction....


That is why many literati don't like to include it as SF. They also do all sorts of mental convolutions to avoid applying the label to Vonnegut, Bradbury, Orwell and others.

Me, I consider FRANKENSTEIN the first genuine work of SF. As such, that self-awareness couldn't really apply - not that I'm particularly wild about that as a criterion, anyhow. I'm not alone in that by any means. Wells' statements suggest he felt the same, and various professional commentators on the history of SF have also discussed the role Ms. Shelley played in the development of the genre.

[Rabid Trekkie]

For Fantasy I'd suggest Ray Bradbury in Something Wicked This Way Comes, The October Country and From the Dust Returned. They may be considered horror as well but I think they could do well in this category too.

In Sci-fi:

Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein.

War of the Worlds by HG Wells.

Stranger in a Strange Land by Heinlein.

The Golden Age of Science Fiction. It's a collection of some of the best stories ever put into print. I mean all the stories are great from The Weapon Shop, to The Big and the Little, to With Folded Hands. Simply an amazing collection.

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress by Heinlein.

Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card.

And now I realize I've not read nearly enough sci-fi. Maybe a giftcard to Barnes and Noble doesn't sound like such a bad idea.

[Rabid Trekkie]

That is why many literati don't like to include it as SF. They also do all sorts of mental convolutions to avoid applying the label to Vonnegut, Bradbury, Orwell and others.

Me, I consider FRANKENSTEIN the first genuine work of SF. As such, that self-awareness couldn't really apply - not that I'm particularly wild about that as a criterion, anyhow. I'm not alone in that by any means. Wells' statements suggest he felt the same, and various professional commentators on the history of SF have also discussed the role Ms. Shelley played in the development of the genre.

Her whole idea of how the creations of men would try to fit in with everyone else is definately a concept that has caught on.

[Iangould]

John Brunner- Crucible of Time



If we're looking for books that define sf both stylistically and in terms of content I'd have to nominate one of Brunner's earlier works, probably Shockwave Rider or The Sheep Look Up.

Brunner's work from the 1970's introduced stylistic elements - multiple view-point characters; chapters intercuttign between multiple narratives; "documentary" matieral such as newspaper articles - which were highly innovative in sf at the time but which have been copied since almost to the point of exhaustion (see virtually anything by David Brin or Vernor vinge).

[zilch]

Start off with the reading syllibus from my SF&F class i took more than 25 years ago. Amazing how much of this still holds up...

The Best of Science Fiction v1 (possilby the finest SF short story collection out there. Freakin blew me away)

Rendevous With Rama by Pohl(?)

The Mote In God's Eye by Niven and Pournelle

(Was supposed to read The Hobbit, but CliffNoted it and faked it... wasn't into fantasy at the time, and LOTR was all the rage on campus)

add to that...

Ringworld by Larry Niven (add his compilations, Playgrounds of The Mind and N-Space for a broad look at SF)

all four books of the Hitchhikers Guide trilogy

Neuromancer by Gibson (interesting book by a man who hadn't even seen a personal computer when he wrote it)

and to add to the Hallelujah chorus of Bright raven, how bout James White's Sector General...

and Solaris gets a nod to the Callahan's Bar and Lady Sally series.

[Slam_Bradley]

The Best of Science Fiction v1 (possilby the finest SF short story collection out there. Freakin blew me away)



Is this the one edited by Robert Silverberg and done for the SFWA? If it is then I agree 100%. An absolutely essential compilation of the truly best of SF short fiction from the 30s through the mid 70s.

[berk]

There's a good anthology edited by Silverberg and titled The Science Fiction Hall of Fame, Vol I, not sure if this is the one either or both Slam Bradley and Zilch are thinking of. The stories were voted on by the SFWA; it starts with Stanley Weinbaum's 'A Martian Odyssey' (1934) and ends with Zelazny's 'A Rose For Ecclesiastes' (1963). It was published in 1970.

Vol II - in two separate books, IIA and IIB, is edited by Ben Bova and contains the bbest SF novellas of all time as voted by the SFWA, and IMO is just as essential as Vol I.

Asimov's The Hugo Winners Vol I & II (available in a single book) looks good, but I haven't read all the stories so I can't say for sure.

[Slam_Bradley]

There's a good anthology edited by Silverberg and titled The Science Fiction Hall of Fame, Vol I, not sure if this is the one either or both Slam Bradley and Zilch are thinking of. The stories were voted on by the SFWA; it starts with Stanley Weinbaum's 'A Martian Odyssey' (1934) and ends with Zelazny's 'A Rose For Ecclesiastes' (1963). It was published in 1970.

Vol II - in two separate books, IIA and IIB, is edited by Ben Bova and contains the bbest SF novellas of all time as voted by the SFWA, and IMO is just as essential as Vol I.

Asimov's The Hugo Winners Vol I & II (available in a single book) looks good, but I haven't read all the stories so I can't say for sure.


The first one is the one I was thinking of. I agree that all four of these books are essential. The early history of SF was written in the pulps and those short works are essential to understanding the genre.

[Iangould]

Rendevous With Rama by Pohl(?)

Clarke actually. If you're goign to stick with a one book per author rule, Clarke's would probably be either Childhood's End or 2001.

Pohl and Kornbluth's "The Space Merchants" would be a decent nomination.

[Bright-Raven]

Johnathon and Howy:

Actually, I posted the way I did because in case you didn't know it there are five(!) well known "canonical" SF lists on the net. The "all works of" list happens to be because most of those authors have at least three works mentioned on these lists, and rather than sit here and decide which book is who's personal favorite or is the most important, I say just read them all. (Of course, I'm pretty fed up with hearing about Herbert's DUNE as though the man never wrote another work in his damned life and would love to see a permanent moratorium on the book placed on the board. There is more to SF and more to Herbert than that one damned work.)

Otherwise, if you really want to list who is "canonical", just list the damned winners for the Hugos, Nebulas, World Fantasy Awards, and other primary literary awards of the genres, historically, and be done with it.

What's the fun in that?

[howyadoin]

Actually, I posted the way I did because in case you didn't know it there are five(!) well known "canonical" SF lists on the net.What's your point?

I'm pretty fed up with hearing about Herbert's DUNE as though the man never wrote another work in his damned life and would love to see a permanent moratorium on the book placed on the board. There is more to SF and more to Herbert than that one damned work.But it's a 2,500-page work, and easily his most successful and influential. If you're saying - as you seem to be - that we should read them all, then we'd be... well, stupid to ignore the most significant chunk of his career. Sure, Dune isn't all there is. But it'd be a lie to say there wasn't some filler in his repertoire.

Otherwise, if you really want to list who is "canonical", just list the damned winners for the Hugos, Nebulas, World Fantasy Awards, and other primary literary awards of the genres, historically, and be done with it.

What's the fun in that?I dunno, I thought the thread was fun all along. Could it be we have different ideas of fun, perhaps?

[berk]

The first one is the one I was thinking of. I agree that all four of these books are essential. The early history of SF was written in the pulps and those short works are essential to understanding the genre. I didn't realize that there is a Fantasy Hall of Fame (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0061052159/qid=1134180078/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_16_4/701-8709279-8915549) book also edited by Sliverberg. I happened across it when I was searching amazon to see if the ones we aere talking about were still in print. If this is anywhere near as good as the SF volumes it's probably worth checking out.

[sheets]

Fantasy Canon
The "Lord of the Rings" Trilogy by J.R.R. Tolkien (to get the obvious out of the way)
"The Hobbit"



What should be added?

Hmmm, I think I'm better with fantasy than sci-fi :)

Of ones I haven't seen listed yet, I'd add:

Gormenghast, by Mervyn Peake.
The King of Elfland's Daughter, by Lord Dunsany.
The Well at the End of the World, by William Morris.
Jirel of Joiry, by CL Moore.
The Chronicles of Narnia, by CS Lewis.
The Zothique Cycle, by Clark Ashton Smith.
The Once and Future King, by TH White.
The Moon Pool, by A. Merritt.
The Kai Lung series, by Ernest Bramah.
Darkness Weaves, by Karl Edward Wagner.
Nifft the Lean, by Michael Shea.
The Dying Earth, by Jack Vance.
Jurgen, by James Branch Cabell.
Throne of Bones, by Brian McNaughton.
She, by H. Rider Haggard.
Merlin's Ring, by H. Warner Munn.

I dunno, I'm just throwing stuff out there :)

[Erkoban]

Because it sure isn't the movie with Sting and Kyle McLachlan, or the TV shows that SCI-FI put out that brought you all of the woodwork repeatedly. Otherwise there should have been a 500 post thread on Ursula K. LeGuin's EARTHSEA novels when SCI-FI put that miniseries out easily. And LeGuin is a hell of a lot more influential writer than Frank Herbert ever was or ever will be.

LeGuin is minor writer compared to Herbert.

Herbert redefined the depths of the genre, moved it away from pulp and challenged every writer to follow him to create a universe where planets were more than mere pebbles. He challenged others to stop writing superficial tales, where people where generalized and treated like cattle without any distinct interests and any culture or background. Herbert gave the genre a depth that people are still emulating.

The only reason you people connect with DUNE so much is the drug use metaphors with the Spice. Which frankly is pathetic, but then after meeting so many CBRians in person who want to do nothing but get drunk or stoned, I guess I really shouldn't be surprised.

And you like LeGuin solely because she has a vagina.

[berk]

Hmmm, I think I'm better with fantasy than sci-fi :)

Of ones I haven't seen listed yet, I'd add:

Gormenghast, by Mervyn Peake.
The King of Elfland's Daughter, by Lord Dunsany.
The Well at the End of the World, by William Morris.
Jirel of Joiry, by CL Moore.
The Chronicles of Narnia, by CS Lewis.
The Zothique Cycle, by Clark Ashton Smith.
The Once and Future King, by TH White.
The Moon Pool, by A. Merritt.
The Kai Lung series, by Ernest Bramah.
Darkness Weaves, by Karl Edward Wagner.
Nifft the Lean, by Michael Shea.
The Dying Earth, by Jack Vance.
Jurgen, by James Branch Cabell.
Throne of Bones, by Brian McNaughton.
She, by H. Rider Haggard.
Merlin's Ring, by H. Warner Munn.

I dunno, I'm just throwing stuff out there :) some excellent suggestions there - actually, they're probably all excelent, but I've read only a few of them. I'll add:

Alice In Wonderland - Lewis Carroll
Through the Looking-Glass - Carroll
Mistress of Mistresses - E.R.Eddison (haven't read the rest of the series yet)
Fourth Mansions - R.A.Lafferty
A Voyage to Arcturus - David Lindsay
The Wind in the Willows - Kenneth Grahame
Just So Stories - Rudyard Kipling
Puck of Pook's Hill - Kipling
Grendel - John Gardner

some of these might be debatable - should they really be classified as fantasy? what about things like Medieval Arthurian romances, or Milton? If we can include Frankenstein in science fiction, can we include Paradise Lost or Spenser's Faery Queene in fantasy?

[Brandon Hanvey]

Please keep the discussion civil.

[howyadoin]

Please keep the discussion civil.It usually is, till people with delusions of grandeur start mouthing off.

[Roquefort Raider]

All right, people, carry on. Nothing to see here anymore.


Well, except if we return to the thread's subject, that is.

[Karl J. Barnes]

All right, people, carry on. Nothing to see here anymore.


Well, except if we return to the thread's subject, that is.

Ben has turned into Officer Barbrady!!


As to Fantasy/SciFi canon, the lists seem to be pretty complete, except I can't recall seeing anything by Fredrick Pohl and his Heechee Trilogy or Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos series.

[Iangould]

On the fantasy side, has anyone mentioned:

Brian Hughart's Master Li and Number 10 Ox novels - more specifically Bridge of Birds;

Mike Shea's Nifft the Lean;

Terrry Pratchett; or

Bob Asprin's MythConceptions?

[JeffreyWKramer]

I didn't realize that there is a Fantasy Hall of Fame (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0061052159/qid=1134180078/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_16_4/701-8709279-8915549) book also edited by Sliverberg. I happened across it when I was searching amazon to see if the ones we aere talking about were still in print. If this is anywhere near as good as the SF volumes it's probably worth checking out.

It's damn good. Not quite as balls-out good as the first few SF volumes, but still damn good.

[JeffreyWKramer]

LeGuin is minor writer compared to Herbert.

Nonsense. I appreciate Herbert just fine, thanks, and can do so without minimizing LeGuin's genius.

THE DISPOSSESSED and LEFT HAND alone make her LeGuin a very, very major writer.

[Chiasm]

Classic Sci Fi

I can't disagree with many others in recommending The Foundation series by Asimov. I didn't like the ending of the series too much as it totally went off the rails of where it had seemed to be heading but up til then it was great. It showed how Sci fi can be great without getting lost in techspeak.

New Sci FI

The Hyperion Series by Dan Simmons consisting of Hyperion, The Fall of Hyperion, Endymion, and the Rise of Endymion. Hands down the best series I've ever read.

[berk]

I'm surprised none of you C.S.Lewis admirers have mentioned George MacDonald. Anyone read his stuff at all?

sheets: Tell us all a little more about Ernest Bramah. The little I know makes me think fans of Barry Hughart (whom I haven't read myself) might be interested. And what other Merritt books do you recommend?

[sheets]

I'm surprised none of you C.S.Lewis admirers have mentioned George MacDonald. Anyone read his stuff at all?

sheets: Tell us all a little more about Ernest Bramah. The little I know makes me think fans of Barry Hughart (whom I haven't read myself) might be interested. And what other Merritt books do you recommend?

Bramah was more or less the guy whose tradition Hughart was working in. That sort of whimsical Far East fantasy. So yeah, if you like Hughart then you should at least try Bramah's work.

As for Merritt, I guess The Ship of Ishtar is probably his most acclaimed/important book besides The Moon Pool. I also like Seven Footprints to Satan a lot, although it's more of a quirky adventure story than a real fantasy :)

[Takashi_Kurita]

LeGuin is minor writer compared to Herbert.

Pretty much, yeah.

The Dune-verse is to Space Opera what LOTR was to fantasy or Neuromancer was to Near-Future/Cyberpunk. I've seen so many, many Sci-Fi novels and series that emulated or outright copied the Dune universe by and large that I can't even begin to list them all.

LeGuin wrote a couple of good books, I'll give you that. But she didn't define the Space Opera genre the way Herbert did.

I mean, in tons of Sci-Fi, you see these Dune conventions, and more:

Semi-medeival society with Lords ruling planets
Space travel controlled by a guild-like entity, or one organization
Technology being viewed with mysticism
A return to melee-combat as being the primary type of battle
A God-like emperor or ruling figure over mankind
A secret, monk-like order (usually female) that has special powers, often given by a special substance or tech that only they have.
Warriors/soldiers that are raised from birth on hellish worlds, thier only purpose being to fight and die for thier ruler
Some kind of Ecclesiarchal religious body controlling much of society, with ignorance and superstition controlling the social order
An utter refusal to use certain types of technologies, for irrational reasons, that would make life far easier.

All these sorts of things, which Dune synthesized and popularized, have made thier way into the bulk of Sci-Fi today. Not just books, but movies, video games, and even certain Tabletop miniatures games (I can think of at least two) which copy this kind of stuff, sometimes almost directly from Herbert's work.

[Kirayoshi]

One book that truly belongs in the canon of fantasy would have to be "The Wizard of Oz" by L. Frank Baum. One of the first universally recognized works of literature to emerge from the United States, and easily one of the most recognizable casts of fictional characters ever. Maybe that's largely due to the movie, but the book is where it started.