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KiplingKat
04-29-2008, 12:27 PM
I might as well start posting links to the numerous debate threads on this topic that have appeared on this board since as far as the archive goes. Its the same debate regurgitated every six months, but the fact remains that you aren't going to convince those that support it that the idea is a bad one and until Marvel tells the origins story with Magneto and Lorna's mother the chance is zero of convincing you that the idea is good.

Can you explain to me how it could possibly effect Magneto as a character when it's already been shown to have no effect on Magneto as a character? (And we've already seen it's negative effect on Lorna as a character.)

Seriously. So Magneto has an affair in the past and begets Lorna...so? What changes?

Nothing.


Its like Carey writing Magneto, you hated the idea, until he actually started writing him, and you found heck he is not that bad and Magneto's current storyline is pretty decient. This Magneto origins story has the most potental for the character in the right hands to be the best Magneto origins story in more then two decades.

I'm still not happy with the idea. Magneto is being written as scenery. He's being written well as scenery, but he's is not being developed and it's getting a little ridiculous that they are dealing with all the X-Men issues after Messiah CompleX when the writers are ignoring the effects of the biggest Universe altering event Marvel has had in years on the character at the center of it. Something did change, something changed in a big way that personally impacted Magnus as a character. If the writers ignore that to develop an incident that doesn't change anything, I'm going to be truly peeved.

KiplingKat
04-29-2008, 12:32 PM
Um... yes, he has said she wasn't his daughter. She addressed him as her father following the robot-Magneto fiasco during the original run, and Magneto flat-out denied it. He didn't have a clue what she was talking about.

Oo! Issue number please?


Chuck Austen's run is very easy to argue against. You just say "didn't happen!" :tongue:

That's my preferred method.

jmc247
04-29-2008, 12:33 PM
I've always liked this idea myself, that Lorna and Zala were made by Sinister and derived from Mangus' DNA. It'd make some sense too as Sinister was shown hanging around the concentration camp that Mangus was imprisioned in.

That is an interesting notion that you, DDM, and a few others have.

jmc247
04-29-2008, 12:35 PM
Okay, so it seems that all of you have your own little theories of who Lorna is, and her origins.

Yup, they certainly do which is why this thread has been repeated so often.

jmc247
04-29-2008, 12:39 PM
Who cares?!?

Given the number of repetitive threads it seems quite a few people care.

KiplingKat
04-29-2008, 12:45 PM
Given the number of repetitive threads it seems quite a few people care.

Given the fact that you are personally resurrecting them all certainly seems to indicate you care.

drwho
04-29-2008, 12:46 PM
Why are there 20 different lorna is mags daughter threads? A slight exaggeration, but definitely more than needed.

jmc247
04-29-2008, 12:49 PM
Given the fact that you are personally resurrecting them all certainly seems to indicate you care.

Yes, I care, but I don't create new threads to debate the issue.


Why are there 20 different lorna is mags daughter threads? A slight exaggeration, but definitely more than needed.

And, that is exactly the point.

KiplingKat
04-29-2008, 12:50 PM
Yes, I care, but I don't create new threads to debate the issue.

No, you just spam the board with old threads. What are you trying to accomplish?

KiplingKat
04-29-2008, 12:59 PM
Bumping against the tide of spam.

GoingGreen
04-29-2008, 01:22 PM
@KiplingKat. So, you'd rather Marvel go through massive massive retcons, and complaints by hundreds about another retcon and screw up in Lorna's history than just deal with the fact that Lorna is Magnus' daughter? You keep asking what it changes... well... what does it change if Lorna WASN'T Magnus' daughter?

There's a lot of anticipation for Polaris/Magneto dialogue based on the big revelation. Yeah, it definitely had it's effects on Lorna, and the character still has this stupid reputation floating around that she's crazy, when it's been stated over and over that her 'crazy' state has been far behind her. So far behind her that she's almost bland, no thanks to the "I HATE CRAZY POLARIS, PUT HER BACK!" complaints we had to hear all about. You guys got your wish, and you still call her crazy.

Anyway, Magneto and Polaris have a substantial history between them. Polaris was never entirely loyal to him... she was just at his side for a portion of her history. During Dark Seduction, it almost felt like another prologue to the big reveal - Magneto: Dark Seduction was about Mags and his relationship with his kids. Yeah, Polaris had been aiding Magneto for some time up until this point, but her role in the mini series was a big one... worthy of notation. Mags took his kids out with a mere Magnetic push, but actually had an all out brawl with Lorna. And the mini really wasn't so long ago, and it wasn't long at all before the big reveal.

I really don't see what the point of retconning their relationship would be.

KiplingKat
04-29-2008, 01:29 PM
@KiplingKat. So, you'd rather Marvel go through massive massive retcons, and complaints by hundreds about another retcon and screw up in Lorna's history than just deal with the fact that Lorna is Magnus' daughter?

It's not a massive retcon.

"Magneto lied."
"Oh, Magneto is a jerk!"
"And this is big surprise?"

There, done.

We don't know anything about Lorna conception, nothing has been written about it, so stetconning her back out of the Magnus clan right now would be a snap. There are no past events to contradict, just one DNA test that was conducted under fishy circumstances.


You keep asking what it changes... well... what does it change if Lorna WASN'T Magnus' daughter?

Nothing.

Think about.

Nothing changes.

Lorna gets a let down, and life goes on.

If it was revealed the Twins were not Magneto kids, that would have to be a massive retcon. But stetconning Lorna back out of the Magnus clan would be quick, easy, and wouldn't change a thing.


I really don't see what the point of retconning their relationship would be.

I don't see what the point was of creating the relationship in the first place, other than to make Polaris "more interesting" without actually developing her character. Cutting Lorna loose from it would give her more of a chance to develop individually as a character, rather than side by side with the Twins or in Magneto shadow, and writers can actually focus on developing Magneto forward, rather than adding trivia backward.

GoingGreen
04-29-2008, 01:38 PM
Answer this question: Why does it matter so much to you?

I didn't mean it would be a hard retcon to maneuver... I meant, it would be a huge deal with the fans. There are tons of fans that don't really care about it, and would see it as another pointless retcon that shouldn't have been done. Then there are tons of fans who would be pissed off - who enjoy the idea and wouldn't want it to change again. And then there are fans like you who want it to end so much - but why? Why do you hate the idea? All you're really arguing is that 'nothing changes' and that 'it would be easy to retcon again', but why put BOTH characters through ANOTHER retcon? How annoying.

Fortunately, Marvel isn't here to please just one person.

KiplingKat
04-29-2008, 01:42 PM
Answer this question: Why does it matter so much to you?

I didn't mean it would be a hard retcon to maneuver... I meant, it would be a huge deal with the fans. There are tons of fans that don't really care about it, and would see it as another pointless retcon that shouldn't have been done. Then there are tons of fans who would be pissed off - who enjoy the idea and wouldn't want it to change again. And then there are fans like you who want it to end so much - but why? Why do you hate the idea? All you're really arguing is that 'nothing changes' and that 'it would be easy to retcon again', but why put BOTH characters through ANOTHER retcon? How annoying.

Fortunately, Marvel isn't here to please just one person.

Why does it matter so much to you? Marvel isn't just here to please you either.

From all the threads I looked over since JMC so conveniently resurrected them, there are just as many fans that are unhappy with the "Lorna is Magneto's daughter" thing as there are fans that are o.k. with it.

Besides, Marvel didn't seem too concerned about pissing off the fans when they retconned 20 years of Spider man continuity. Stetconning Lorna at least would have support from about 50% of the fan base.

As to why it matters to me? It's lousy writing, lazy writing, and it hasn't done a damn thing for either character. In fact, it's been detrimental to Lorna's character. And it distracts attention from character devlopment that should be taking place in both characters, but is not.

Lorna should be developing a personality of her own. Magneto should be dealing with the emotional effects of M-Day. Neither is happening. And they want to waste panel space with some stupid "Magneto got laid in the past" story? Waste of time and effort. Let's move both the characters forward, rather than back.

brundlefly
04-29-2008, 02:19 PM
Heh, it's flashback day for old X-threads. And here are some more of my 2006 comments once again dismissing the need for Marvel to invest any time in the sordid (and irrelevant) details of how Magneto knocked up Lorna's mom. Yay for consistency...

Monty_Cristo
04-29-2008, 04:31 PM
i think Lorna and Zaladane were created by Mr.Sinister (created to hook up w/ Alex Summers) or some other warped geneticist in the Savageland. Magneto probably started looking into it after his encounter w/ Zaladane; wondering how she could siphon his power. it was after this that he welcomed Lorna as one of his "offspring."


my reasoning: after losing the twins, there's no way that Erik would have abandoned another one of his children. he's too much of a control freak. the only explanation i can come up w/ is that he honestly didn't know that Lorna shared his dna up until around the time that he welcomed her to Genosha.

KiplingKat
04-29-2008, 06:25 PM
Maybe, its possible. That is one scenario I might go with. But its still very shaky tho', since he never acted like Lorna is his child. They were working on Genosha together for at least six months, and he's never welcomed her as his "offspring" until the day of the Genoshan massacre...and has never even mentioned her since, let alone sought her out. He's "knows" Lorna is his, yet he has never acted like Lorna is his. In fact, he seemed rather hesitant about greeting her in House of M.

Actions speak louder than words.

Plus, as observed above, there are plenty of examples of power stealing and power swapping between characters who have no relation to one another. Moira never saw the machine, she had no basis from which to make that statement.

Monty_Cristo
04-29-2008, 07:08 PM
Maybe, its possible. That is one scenario I might go with. But its still very shaky tho', since he never acted like Lorna is his child. They were working on Genosha together for at least six months, and he's never welcomed her as his "offspring" until the day of the Genoshan massacre...and has never even mentioned her since, let alone sought her out. He's "knows" Lorna is his, yet he has never acted like Lorna is his. In fact, he seemed rather hesitant about greeting her in House of M.

Actions speak louder than words.

Plus, as observed above, there are plenty of examples of power stealing and power swapping between characters who have no relation to one another. Moira never saw the machine, she had no basis from which to make that statement.

that's why i'm thinking that she's a clone or some other kind of experiment that Magneto had nothing to do with. Magneto might be uneasy about accepting her as one of his own.

darknessatnoon
04-29-2008, 07:12 PM
This is such a stupid conversation!

Do you think Magneto keeps track of every shot in the dark he ever took?!

I'm sure The Great Lord Magneto spilled a few quarts of baby batter all over the world, and it is possible that he may not have kept magnetic track over every ounce of it. It is perfectly plausible that the fashion nightmare that is Polaris is his daughter. Their horrid taste in clothing and hair seems to be something they share in common.

Now can you magnetism people please stop obsessing?

Monty_Cristo
04-29-2008, 07:14 PM
This is such a stupid conversation!

Do you think Magneto keeps track of every shot in the dark he ever took?!

yes, of course. he's a genetic supremacist.

KiplingKat
04-29-2008, 07:16 PM
This is such a stupid conversation!

Do you think Magneto keeps track of every shot in the dark he ever took?!

I'm sure The Great Lord Magneto spilled a few quarts of baby batter all over the world, and it is possible that he may not have kept magnetic track over every ounce of it. It is perfectly plausible that the fashion nightmare that is Polaris is his daughter. Their horrid taste in clothing and hair seems to be something they share in common.

Now can you magnetism people please stop obsessing?

First of all, Secret Wars I, not to mention his loyalty to Lee years after the audience had seen them on panel together, not to mention the fact that he was still in love with his wife 30+ years after the fact, proved that Magneto is not a "one night stand" kind of guy.

Secondly, compare how he reacted to finding out the Twins were his vs. "finding out" Polaris was his. The impact the Twins have had on his life vs. the Impact Polaris has had on his life.

KiplingKat
04-29-2008, 07:16 PM
that's why i'm thinking that she's a clone or some other kind of experiment that Magneto had nothing to do with. Magneto might be uneasy about accepting her as one of his own.

True. Look how he reacted to Joseph, calling him an "abomination".

This is one scenario that is somewhat plausible given the past continuity. While Magneto did say he dodged Sinister in the camps, Mengele did work with the Sonderkommando, so it's possible a tissue sample did fall into Sinister's hands.

darknessatnoon
04-29-2008, 07:17 PM
First of all, Secret Wars I, not to mention his loyalty to Lee years after the audience had seen them on panel together, proved that Magneto is not a "one night stand" kind of guy.

Secondly, compare how he reacted to finding out the Twins were his vs. "finding out" Polaris was his. The impact the Twins have had on his life vs. the Impact Polaris has had on his life.

If you're citing his refusal to bang Janet Van Dyne in Secret Wars as a sign of his sexual discretion, I must counter and say that it merely means Magneto has some taste.

darknessatnoon
04-29-2008, 07:18 PM
True. Look how he reacted to Joseph, calling him an "abomination".

he was referring to Joseph's hair.

Monty_Cristo
04-29-2008, 07:18 PM
True. Look how he reacted to Joseph, calling him an "abomination".

i think three things factored into his different treatment of Lorna.

1) she wasn't created to kill him like Joseph

2) she doesn't look like a younger version of him (that would bother most people)

3) she was quite useful for enhancing his own severely weakened powers

KiplingKat
04-29-2008, 07:22 PM
If you're citing his refusal to bang Janet Van Dyne in Secret Wars as a sign of his sexual discretion, I must counter and say that it merely means Magneto has some taste.

He did "bang her", and the next day he assumed they had a relationship and was shocked and angered to discover that Janet did not (of course, the bio-sting she used when she told him that didn't help matters any).

darknessatnoon
04-29-2008, 07:25 PM
He did "bang her", and the next day he assumed they had a relationship and was shocked and angered to discover that Janet did not (of course, the bio-sting she used when she told him that didn't help matters any).

All this means is that Magneto can get beer goggles and that Janet is a .... (damn, I am no longer allowed to use that word outside of X-Cress).

EDIT: EUPHEMISM RETRIEVED

All this means is that Magneto can get beer goggles and that Janet is a Diana Fox.

KiplingKat
04-29-2008, 07:25 PM
i think three things factored into his different treatment of Lorna.

1) she wasn't created to kill him like Joseph

2) she doesn't look like a younger version of him (that would bother most people)

3) she was quite useful for enhancing his own severely weakened powers

Agreed, though I would add 4) He didn't know where she came from, which would make him very hesitant to reveal the connection, but want to keep her close by to watch her as well as hijack her powers.

As I just added above, this is one scenario that is somewhat plausible given the past continuity. While Magneto did say he dodged Sinister in the camps, Mengele did work with the Sonderkommando, so it's possible a tissue sample did fall into Sinister's hands.

And Lorna was a Pre-Maddy. Like Maddy, her mutant powers were dormant until activated artificially too.

Though that doesn't explain the "She's not Magneto daughter" assertion from AoA.