Black Adam and Sinestro

[Silvermane]

Geoff Johns and others have made a concerted effort to turn Black Adam into DC's version of Magneto/Doctor Doom. In other words, he is a really powerful villain whose motivations are morally ambiguous. Depending upon your perspective, he, like Doom and Magnus, is not a villain at all. My question is this: why doesn't Sinestro get the same treatment? What is the difference between him and Black Adam? He was also a noble individual selected among millions of others to be a champion. He, too, served with distinction making his superiors proud. He, too, is said to have become corrupt with his power when he would argue that his way of enforcing order is more effective and in the best interests of his people. He, too, was supplanted as the greatest hero by another man who wears his uniform. He, too, considers himself above mere villainy. So, why is Sinestro still portrayed as a cartoonish villain stereotype while Black Adam has been allowed to evolve into something more? Am I missing something? Is there a difference between the two that I have neglected? Or is it simply a matter of Geoff Johns getting around to Sinestro someday?

[Gingold]

Sinestro has a flamboyantly evil mustache. And a funny shaped head. And the first three letters of his name are S-I-N.

Aren't there enough pussified ambiguous anti-villains in comics already? Seems like every X-Men bad guy has joined the team at this point. Let's keep Sinestro evil, please.

[Sean Whitmore]

That's a really intriguing question.

Were I to hazard a guess, it'd be that toning down Sinestro to Adam levels of "villainy" would fly in the face of too many Sinestro stories (which, if you factor in all the pre-Crisis stories that are still canon, is a lot).

On the other hand, all of Adam's past villainy was the cause of Theo Adam, who was in control. That was changed only a few years ago, so Johns basically had a clean slate to work with in Teth Adam, who (I don't believe) we've seen before.


SEAN

[Taskmaster]

It's mainly because of Sinestro's obsession with revenge at any expense. He's willing to destroy the whole universe as long as it gets back at the Guardians and GLC. Sinestro could've been a Doom or Magneto like villain, but at this point I think he's too well set in his evil'ness, he's even been shown to have evil tendancies before he got his GL ring (he actually allowed the GLC member to die instead of giving him the ring back)

[Silvermane]

Sinestro has a flamboyantly evil mustache. And a funny shaped head. And the first three letters of his name are S-I-N.

Aren't there enough pussified ambiguous anti-villains in comics already? Seems like every X-Men bad guy has joined the team at this point. Let's keep Sinestro evil, please.

See, I agree with you, but in the reverse. I likes me some reeeallly bad Black Adam and I miss that interpretation of him. However, I think that Sinestro would actually be kind of cool if they acknowledged that there is more depth to him. I mean, come on. The Guardians could not have been that wrong, could they? They've been picking Lanterns for eons. How often have they completely screwed up?

[Silvermane]

That's a really intriguing question.

Were I to hazard a guess, it'd be that toning down Sinestro to Adam levels of "villainy" would fly in the face of too many Sinestro stories (which, if you factor in all the pre-Crisis stories that are still canon, is a lot).

On the other hand, all of Adam's past villainy was the cause of Theo Adam, who was in control. That was changed only a few years ago, so Johns basically had a clean slate to work with in Teth Adam, who (I don't believe) we've seen before.


SEAN

Good point. Thanks for the response.

[Gingold]

See, I agree with you, but in the reverse. I likes me some reeeallly bad Black Adam and I miss that interpretation of him. However, I think that Sinestro would actually be kind of cool if they acknowledged that there is more depth to him. I mean, come on. The Guardians could not have been that wrong, could they? They've been picking Lanterns for eons. How often have they completely screwed up?

I think it'd be fine to acknowledge that there's more depth to Sinestro. If there was. But really- he was selected to be Green Lantern because he met the qualifications: honest and fearless. He was obsessed with order, to the point that he didn't care if innocents were hurt or freedoms were taken away in order to maintain order. He was a fascist- pure and simple. In addition to being a fascist he also was a cry-baby vengeance obssessed dick who wanted revenge on Hal and the Guardians for kicking his butt. Pretty cut and dried villain in my book.

Frankly I feel the same way about Dr. Doom. I always hated that "noble, sophisticated leader who wants to conquer the world for its own good" BS. He's an evil crybaby who thinks he's better than everyone else and blames all his problems on Reed: villain.

Magneto: Terrorist thug who uses his own tragic past as an excuse to do the exact same thing to humans that the Nazis did to him: villain (except for 1985-89 when he was actually trying to reform).

Black Adam kills terrorists and murderers. He doesn't believe that the lives of said terrorists and murderers have any value. I don't agree with this philosophy, but it's not evil, just kinda ruthless. (Now, the fact that he's willing to work with Luthor and co. to achieve his ends definitely swings him closer to bad guy status- but it's not as simple as the other three.)

[Sean Whitmore]

I agree with Gingold as far as Doom is concerned. Thinking he can do the best job is a pretty standard and flimsy excuse for wanting to rule the world, and doesn't make him much different than Apocalypse, the Master, Ultron, or Kang (who, depending on what day of the week it is, is a future Doom anyway).

Magneto is more like Doom or more like Adam depending on who is writing him that week.


SEAN

[Paul Newell]

How often have they completely screwed up?

Krona, The Manhunters, Parallax, the Zamarons.... :)

[Silvermane]

Krona, The Manhunters, Parallax, the Zamarons.... :)

Well, yeah if you're gonna start counting them... :o

[Silvermane]

I agree with Gingold as far as Doom is concerned. Thinking he can do the best job is a pretty standard and flimsy excuse for wanting to rule the world, and doesn't make him much different than Apocalypse, the Master, Ultron, or Kang (who, depending on what day of the week it is, is a future Doom anyway).

Magneto is more like Doom or more like Adam depending on who is writing him that week.


SEAN

Granted. But the fact still remains that Doom is treated differently than Sinestro as far as depth and characterization go despite them having similar motivations in your book.

[Expletive Deleted]

Aren't there enough pussified ambiguous anti-villains in comics already?Thank you!

There's a scarcity of good villains these days. Heroing 'em up, even a little, does more harm than good.

[Paul Newell]

Well, yeah if you're gonna start counting them... :o
Hey! I coulda mentioned the New Guardians! ;)

[Patience]

Hey! I coulda mentioned the New Guardians! ;)

And the entire Mosaic experiment.

Ayria, (http://glcorps.dcuguide.com/profile.php?name=ayria) Dob Zagil, (http://glcorps.dcuguide.com/profile.php?name=dobzagil) and Kentor Omoto, (http://glcorps.dcuguide.com/profile.php?name=kentoromoto) and Yalan Gur (http://glcorps.dcuguide.com/profile.php?name=yalangur) weren't exactly stellar choices for Green Lanterns, if you're looking for other Sinestros.

They could've handled the whole Starheart thing a bit better.

Attacking Dark Seid turned out pretty badly.

And the Multiverse and the Anti-Monitor were their fault, but that falls under Krona.

The Psions aren't exactly a positive addition to the DC Universe.

And I figure cutting off the Vega System to give the Psions a lab to play in is going to turn out to have been an extremely bad idea, come GLC: Recharge #3

Man, the Guardians of the Universe are much bigger screw-ups than any single Green Lantern.

Of course, if they did everything right the first time, they wouldn't really have felt a need to build an army to fix their mistakes, would they have?

[Gauss]

I think Geoff Johns has actually gone some way towards giving Sinestro a bit more depth.

For one thing, he's made Sinestro aware that the ring on his finger is essentially feeding off of raw fear. That alone opens up a whole new area for Sinestro: in the past, he's been considered extremely dangerous, but never really outright feared. I expect we'll see that changing in his new appearances.

Secondly, Sinestro now has the distinction of being responsible for the very worst period of Hal Jordan's life. I'll be very surprised if Sinestro doesn't exploit this victory at the next opportunity, as he's now in a position to make Hal's life a living hell in the Corps.

And finally, if you read Geoff's "director's cut" comments about Rebirth (I found them on the Wizard magazine web site, and they're probably still there), he gives a take on Sinestro that makes his rivalry with Hal quite a bit more interesting. Basically, Sinestro has no regard for any Green Lantern in the entire Corps, and as far as he's concerned they're not really worth his effort. Hence for them, he plays the role of an unflappable, unstoppable monster, and pretty much pulls it off. But with Hal it's different: Sinestro considers Hal Jordan to be his equal, if not his better (when he'll admit it), and so reserves his true rage and hate for him alone.

Now, I'll grant you that that doesn't give him the moral ambiguity that Black Adam has, but that's something that I don't think Sinestro should ever have. He is, or has become, a being dedicated to bringing fear and chaos to the entire universe. And while I am all for treating Sinestro as the tactical thinker and psychological manipulator that he rightfully deserves to be, he is also the Green Lantern Corps' equivalent of the Joker: a seemingly unstoppable madman whose presence inevitably results in death and suffering. Whatever nobility he may have had has been burned away by insanity, hate, and bitterness.

Some villains are simply villains. :evilsmile

[Simon Garth]

Sinestro has a flamboyantly evil mustache. And a funny shaped head. And the first three letters of his name are S-I-N.

Aren't there enough pussified ambiguous anti-villains in comics already? Seems like every X-Men bad guy has joined the team at this point. Let's keep Sinestro evil, please.

Exactly - he's got one of those terrible DC "what can we call him? Erm, oh I dunno... he's sinister.... err.... Sinister-O! No, that would be stupid... I know, Sinestro!" kind of names (see, Evillo, Universo, Metamorpho, Computo, Starro the sodding starfish conquerer :rolleyes: and probably more, that I'm thankfully not aware of).

[hangmanjury]

Johns isn't really ALL responsible for Black Adam being a morally ambiguous antihero. Jerry Ordway set that all up back in the Power of Shazam miniseries. And it kinda, sorta makes sense.

The semiotics of Sinestro's physical appearance and the semantics of his name just prevent the same treatment.

[OmegaGuy]

That's an interesting point.

[Silvermane]

Johns isn't really ALL responsible for Black Adam being a morally ambiguous antihero. Jerry Ordway set that all up back in the Power of Shazam miniseries. And it kinda, sorta makes sense.

The semiotics of Sinestro's physical appearance and the semantics of his name just prevent the same treatment.

Good point. Didn't really care for Ordway's Shazam reboot, but I see what you mean.

[Gingold]

Exactly - he's got one of those terrible DC "what can we call him? Erm, oh I dunno... he's sinister.... err.... Sinister-O! No, that would be stupid... I know, Sinestro!" kind of names (see, Evillo, Universo, Metamorpho, Computo, Starro the sodding starfish conquerer :rolleyes: and probably more, that I'm thankfully not aware of).

Let's not forget Amazo, Titano, Bizarro, Deconstructo, Krypto, Malvolio, Despero, El Diablo, Lobo, Professor Ivo, Mogo, Indigo, ...

I think Sinestro's got a pretty cool name, really. You know what he's all about. It just doesn't allow for any ambiguity.

[Patience]

Let's not forget Amazo, Titano, Bizarro, Deconstructo, Krypto, Malvolio, Despero, El Diablo, Lobo, Professor Ivo, Mogo, Indigo, ...

I think Sinestro's got a pretty cool name, really. You know what he's all about. It just doesn't allow for any ambiguity.

It must mean something like "Cute fluffy bunny" in Korugarian, though, or else it would've been a big tip-off to the Guardians that he was a bad egg-head.

[handOFfate]

The semiotics of Sinestro's physical appearance and the semantics of his name just prevent the same treatment.

This is exactly how I feel. The guy just looks like a cartoony villain.

[SlightlyMad]

(Now, the fact that he's willing to work with Luthor and co. to achieve his ends definitely swings him closer to bad guy status- but it's not as simple as the other three.)

From what I understand (all my knowledge of Villains Untied/Crisis etc. coming from these boards & other comic sites) Black Adam wasn't given much choice in the matter & is only doing the VU thing for the sake of protecting the land/people of Kandaq.

[Harry Angel]

Frankly I feel the same way about Dr. Doom. I always hated that "noble, sophisticated leader who wants to conquer the world for its own good" BS. He's an evil crybaby who thinks he's better than everyone else and blames all his problems on Reed: villain.


That is simply the best description of Doom and his motivation that I have ever read.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Sinestro was already a bad seed who only got badder once he went to the Anti-Matter Universe, where he went Native and gleefully immersed himself in the Qwardian's fanatical religious devotion to evil. And turned completely bug-house insane evil once he tasted the omnipotent power of Sector 3600 and the Yellow Impurity...not to mention the Anti-Monitor during the Crisis.

He was an egotistical fascist before all that though.

I don't buy the completely ignored Ron Marz' origin retcon though, that had Sinestro murdering a wounded GL for his ring. I think Sinestro was an exceptional GL but an arrogant, though decent, prick in the beginning, like he was in the original stories.

Sinestro's family is something that's rarely touched upon, but I would like to see what Johns could do with his sorceress sister, the Witch Queen and his Cosmic Heroin Dealer father...sorry, Space Heroin.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

If you really wanted to have created a cool anti-hero villain out of one of Hal's insanely powerful villains, it would have been the late Doctor Polaris, he of the Jekell & Hyde Hulkouts.

Or Evil Star, the cosmic crack addict who is actually an extremely heroic man who only wanted to save his planet, trapped inside the mind of a genocidal maniac. Parallax, basically.

And they seemed to have gone that route with Major Disaster, but Joe Kelly's doesn't do anything for me. Prefered Giffen & DeMatties' Paul Booker.

[Ultraman Max]

Black Adam strikes me as being written closer to Namor the Sub-Mariner than either Doom or Magneto. The guy who rules his own country and looks at it's best interest over pretty much everything else and is willing to work with whoever he needs to at any given moment for that reason.

I dunno if they really need another anti-hero character like that, especially after going through all the trouble they have to make thier villians bad again.